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View Full Version : A new form of Trolling??(read more inside)



zalmatra
2010-07-22, 01:55 PM
this is not against any particular posters here nor is it against any threads being discussed here but a startling number of posts i have seen on various forums i lurk on some i post /shame

alot of the posts compound the idea that undeath (depending on the lore source this can be incorrect or neutral at best) is not evil undead beings are not generally evil and that demons are misunderstood creatures and just the average run of the mill invaders like vikings.

the posts are generalized and none specific

specifically i have seen alot of posts in the wow forums and some of the dnd forums i have lurked
also alot of alignment philosophy crap which like philosophy is a snake eating its own tail

Warning NSFW alternative to snake eating its own tail which is more appropriate to the discussion at hand
{Scrubbed. If you have to mark something NSFW, it's a good indication that you shouldn't post it here.}


first point: Is there some sort of unknown trolling going on
second point: Or is it merely cross pollination from separate forums with a shiny endless discussion with no clear answers? (see snake eating its own tail)

Warning hypothetical situation has reached probability limits

Telonius
2010-07-22, 02:03 PM
To the first point - well, it might be trolling, but it's certainly not new, and definitely not unknown. This sort of topic has been done to death and back over the years, for a variety of reasons. (Real-world differences of opinion about objective/subjective morality, vagueness and sometimes-contradictory definitions of alignment within WotC sources, a combination of Gabe's Theory (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/) and XKCD's Revelation (http://xkcd.com/386/), the fact that gamers are historically a bunch of rules-lawyers who try to pull a fast one over on their poor unsuspecting DM...)

In short, yeah, it's annoying, but there's no sinister plot involved.

Prodan
2010-07-22, 02:03 PM
In short, yeah, it's annoying, but there's no sinister plot involved.

None whatsoever.

zalmatra
2010-07-22, 02:07 PM
ill accept that the discussion decided to randomly spawn again like salmon :P

Ranos
2010-07-22, 02:09 PM
This entire theory is nonsense. Who would even orchestrate that kind of trolling ?
Shut up and move along if you know what's good for you.

hamishspence
2010-07-22, 02:12 PM
"The undead are not always evil" has a lot of support in past and present editions- including 4E- so it's not surprising it gets mentioned a lot.

"Demons are not always evil" has Fall-From-Grace in Planescape Torment, and that succubus paladin, to support it- as well as cambions in Expedition to the Demonweb pits, which are only technically demons (outsiders native to the Abyss with the Chaotic and Evil subtypes) and as much as 10% of cambions are Neutral or Good.

That said, nonevil demons are very very rare, and those demons which are evil, are exceptionally evil.

SilverClawShift
2010-07-22, 02:15 PM
It's trolling to have a non-standard opinion about how fantasy creatures work?

faceroll
2010-07-22, 02:15 PM
This entire theory is nonsense. Who would even orchestrate that kind of trolling ?
Shut up and move along if you know what's good for you.

Some sort of internet hate machine....

zalmatra
2010-07-22, 02:25 PM
My reference was to how over a short two weeks the discussions spawned swiftly across multiple boards i normally peruse and lurk on. i recently decided to post on this forum o.o

having a nonstandard opinion is fine but remember avoid the snake eating its own tail kind of discussion.

zalmatra
2010-07-22, 02:27 PM
-hides from the internet ninjas.-

Volomon
2010-07-22, 02:28 PM
this is not against any particular posters here nor is it against any threads being discussed here but a startling number of posts i have seen on various forums i lurk on some i post /shame

alot of the posts compound the idea that undeath (depending on the lore source this can be incorrect or neutral at best) is not evil undead beings are not generally evil and that demons are misunderstood creatures and just the average run of the mill invaders like vikings.

the posts are generalized and none specific

specifically i have seen alot of posts in the wow forums and some of the dnd forums i have lurked
also alot of alignment philosophy crap which like philosophy is a snake eating its own tail

Warning NSFW alternative to snake eating its own tail which is more appropriate to the discussion at hand
{Scrubbed}


first point: Is there some sort of unknown trolling going on
second point: Or is it merely cross pollination from separate forums with a shiny endless discussion with no clear answers? (see snake eating its own tail)

Warning hypothetical situation has reached probability limits

Oh technically not a troll or rant, this is at the heart of vikings (northmen, I think) in Warhammer. Ya vikings can murder you and your babies to them this isn't an evil act, because their society doesn't work that way. I think they mean, evil as in how YOU view it, from another's perspective it might not be evil. For instance if you killed a chicken for breakfast, PETA would consider that evil. However you would consider that breakfast.

Warhammer describes what your talking about in perfect order so well in fact that you start to see the point of view from the evil side, to where it no longer sounds evil at all.

Strawberries
2010-07-22, 02:29 PM
"Demons are not always evil" has Fall-From-Grace in Planescape Torment, and that succubus paladin, to support it.

I don't have much to contribute, but I just wanted to say that Fall-From-Grace
was an awesome character.

/useless post

Also, can I ask which succubus paladin?

hamishspence
2010-07-22, 02:30 PM
I wonder if anyone's listed the most common recurring topics on the forum, and how often they recur?

Monk threads
Edition-criticism threads
Alignment threads
Paladin-fall threads

And so on.


I don't have much to contribute, but I just wanted to say that Fall-From-Grace
was an awesome character.

/useless post

Also, can I ask which succubus paladin?

This succubus paladin:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a

Fall-From-Grace got mentioned in Demonomicon-Malcanthet in Dragon Magazine, written by James Jacobs who was on the WoTC staff- so she may be canon in 3.5 ed D&D- not just a "game-only" character.

mrcarter11
2010-07-22, 02:38 PM
You need to add ToB to the list. It gets mentioned at least once a week.

zalmatra
2010-07-22, 02:40 PM
i prefer that 9 swords book heh

Optimystik
2010-07-22, 02:41 PM
It's trolling to have a non-standard opinion about how fantasy creatures work?

Forsooth! Halt yon presses!

Prodan
2010-07-22, 02:42 PM
So, I have a Monk/Paladin who lied to the Inquisitor of a Lawful Evil nation to protect innocent orphaned puppies from being kicked. Does this cause him to fall for violating his code of conduct and change alignment to Chaotic?

I wish things were simpler like in 4e. Maybe I should make a Swordsage/Crusader as my next character and save myself the headache?

Coplantor
2010-07-22, 02:43 PM
I wonder if anyone's listed the most common recurring topics on the forum, and how often they recur?

Monk threads
Edition-criticism threads
Alignment threads
Paladin-fall threads

And so on.

Dont forget Fighter vs Wizard and VoP druid.

Recently, there's been a lot of E6 too

Reynard
2010-07-22, 02:45 PM
i prefer that 9 swords book heh

*Narrow's eyes*

Yes, ToB.

*Is not sure if this thread about trolling is not, in fact, a troll thread*

hamishspence
2010-07-22, 02:45 PM
So, I have a Monk/Paladin who lied to the Inquisitor of a Lawful Evil nation to protect innocent orphaned puppies from being kicked. Does this cause him to fall for violating his code of conduct and change alignment to Chaotic?

As a paladin put it in War & XPs after lying to Miko "It's a violation, but not a gross violation"

So- no real worries. Especially if you atone a little (say 10 Hail Pelor's? :smallbiggrin:) even though you didn't actually fall.

Stompy
2010-07-22, 02:48 PM
There's been (and there is one right now) issues with optimization vs. X or I hate optimization because Y.

Viskocity
2010-07-22, 02:50 PM
-hides from the internet ninjas.-

You can never hide... :smalleek:

Anyhoo, I can't help but find it strange that you are posting a thread disparaging other peoples opinions on the nature of undead and outsiders, but try to couch it as 'anti-trolling' or some such. Sometimes a discussion does not need to a clear conclusion. The point is just to share ideas and see what others think about the subject.

If anyone, I would say that you are the troll.

Jallorn
2010-07-22, 02:50 PM
Oh technically not a troll or rant, this is at the heart of vikings (northmen, I think) in Warhammer. Ya vikings can murder you and your babies to them this isn't an evil act, because their society doesn't work that way. I think they mean, evil as in how YOU view it, from another's perspective it might not be evil. For instance if you killed a chicken for breakfast, PETA would consider that evil. However you would consider that breakfast.

Warhammer describes what your talking about in perfect order so well in fact that you start to see the point of view from the evil side, to where it no longer sounds evil at all.

Hold up, vikings never killed women or children. They abducted women since they saw them as property, killed the men that fought them, yes, but they would never hurt a child. At least the honorable ones, obviously there are exceptions.

hamishspence
2010-07-22, 02:51 PM
Might be interesting to go back to the date of the Great Thread Purge, and count off when each new thread of the listed "common recurring type" occurred, and do a chart showing how many such threads were made each month- thus identifying the most common recurrers.

That said, seems like too much hard work.

Ravens_cry
2010-07-22, 02:52 PM
It's more that threads come in packs. Say there is a burning question or idea in your mind you want to express, but your not sure if should say it or not. Then someone decides to post something related in some way to that topic. That "breaks the ice" and you get a bunch of related topics because people feel like they can post it now.
That's my theory anyway.

zalmatra
2010-07-22, 02:53 PM
The thread is changing like a tide rising onto the land reclaiming its glory, it yearns it feeds it grows perhaps into something else. When the dust settles will the original answer be divined?

on topic the answer i got from the chicken bones was:

the sudden flaring of discussed topics is random and cross pollination between boards the sudden upsurge is not due to any trickery but merely the randomness of the interwebs

also i don't mind the tome of battle. its all combat related stuff a central part of dungeons and dragons, but don't forget the roleplaying :P

hamishspence
2010-07-22, 02:54 PM
It's more that threads come in packs. Say there is a burning question or idea in your mind you want to express, but your not sure if should say it or not. Then someone decides to post something related in some way to that topic. That "breaks the ice" and you get a bunch of related topics because people feel like they can post it now.
That's my theory anyway.

You never know, maybe there's a dissertation on that very subject "The Sociology of Forums" or something like that.

zalmatra
2010-07-22, 02:56 PM
discussion is fine but there comes a point in the conversation where its a snake eating its own tail.

Telonius
2010-07-22, 02:57 PM
Hold up, vikings never killed women or children. They abducted women since they saw them as property, killed the men that fought them, yes, but they would never hurt a child. At least the honorable ones, obviously there are exceptions.

Though if the kid was a Packers fan, all bets were off. :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2010-07-22, 02:57 PM
discussion is fine but there comes a point in the conversation where its a snake eating its own tail.

Sometimes. Or it may derail and head off in another direction.

Prodan
2010-07-22, 02:57 PM
Hold up, vikings never killed women or children. They abducted women since they saw them as property, killed the men that fought them, yes, but they would never hurt a child. At least the honorable ones, obviously there are exceptions.

1. That means that vikings did sometimes kill women or children.
2. What the vikings actually did is a matter of historical debate and not quite settled to this day.

Ormagoden
2010-07-22, 03:01 PM
the sudden flaring of discussed topics is random and cross pollination between boards the sudden upsurge is not due to any trickery but merely the randomness of the interwebs


I totally agree



Just as planned...

herrhauptmann
2010-07-22, 03:03 PM
Willing to put forth the theory that one person with accounts on various forums (using different names per forum) could be responsible for most.
Scenario:
Bob goes to forum A (FA for now), and makes a statement regarding say the alignment of hamsters. He truly meant it to be an honest discussion, and was hoping to win and prove his point. Instead, because he's an antisocial twerp with the people skills of a rabid lemming, he's soundly defeated and signs off from FA in a huff. Never to return to FA using that screenname again.
Now very butthurt, he goes to forum B (FB) where he's been posting under a different name for years, and announces a similar theory. Using internal dialogue, he makes a theory about the alignment of gerbils based off of his statement regarding the alignment of hamsters. "Here" he says to himself, "I"ll do better, and I'll win this time." What Bob has still failed to realize, is that namecalling and grammar/spell checking as a method of proving your intelligence, and thereby your accuracy in arguments is a poor method of arguing. So he's again defeated, this time on FB.
Using the emotional maturity of a 9 year old, Bob never realizes what mistakes he's making in his debates, among them, that he may just be wrong.
Furthermore, each time he's defeated, Bob decides to never visit that forum again. This resolution lasts about a week before the free time resulting from him no longer posting on FA through FG etc leads him to return, but under a different name.
Not that he's intending to troll them, but he doesn't want to get hassled further regarding the alignment of rodents and his last few comments at each forum.
Now several months go by, Bob has racked up several thousand posts on those forums under his new name, and decides he wants to revisit the topic of rodent alignments, so the cycle begins all over again.

Now imagine there's several thousand Bobs running around between the different forums.


So it might not be a conspiracy, just something like I've described. And yes, I HAVE seen something similar, though it was actually in the old yahoo chat rooms as a teenager.

zalmatra
2010-07-22, 03:04 PM
discussions in packs sounds quite the academic thought like random topics congealing and coalescing around a certain idea.

i think the best way to derive a comparison would be a wiki or tvtroups walk where you sit at home clicking on stuff look up and 4 hours have passed and your long gone from dragonball z and now knee deep in carebears and nightmare fuel.

Ravens_cry
2010-07-22, 03:04 PM
You never know, maybe there's a dissertation on that very subject "The Sociology of Forums" or something like that.
Maybe. I am just reporting on my own feelings when posting. After all, once you post something you can't exactly post that topic again, now can you?
So you want to do it at a time when you think you'll get results, posts, answers.
And when people are already talking about say, Marshmallow roasting techniques, it may be a good time to post that fabulous s'more recipe involving mint-chocolate wafers or to ask how to pick the best marshmellow roasting stick.

zalmatra
2010-07-22, 03:06 PM
Awesome post herrhauptmann

hamishspence
2010-07-22, 03:11 PM
Awesome post herrhauptmann

It is, rather.

I'm hoping I've never been guilty of Bob-ishness on this forum :smalleek:

Strawberries
2010-07-22, 03:11 PM
This succubus paladin:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a



Thanks :smallsmile:. Fall-From-Grace is still way cooler, though.

hamishspence
2010-07-22, 03:14 PM
While I've read the Planescape Strategy Guide book- and the Gamespot guide- I haven't played the game yet. Though it's been re-released, I haven't spotted it in the shops.

Most of what I know about it has come from memory, TV-tropes, and Wikipedia.

Though I suspect (from the way it's regarded) that most of the characters are way cooler than a lot of D&D novel ones.

herrhauptmann
2010-07-22, 03:28 PM
Awesome post herrhauptmann

Thank you both.
Out of work today because of a bad ear infection. I've been bored out of my mind, and that post took a good 20 minutes of typing and editing. It was well worth it.