Simplified big battles..

[braxsus]

Thought I would share this with the play ground

This is the system I use to simplify Large battles so that:

The outcome is Not-predetermined (Allthough the Size and Strength of an Army may make success/failure a likely hood)
The PC's take an active roll influenceing the Outcome, without bogging down the game play to endless Die Rolls for the battle itself
The values can be deteremined in advanced prior to a game sessions so that is just a matter of making about 20 roles in a given session, with a few bonuses

Army Points (AP)
Assign Army Points.. think of it as Army Hitpoints
These Points represent Size, Experience, Equipment etc..
Examples of points ...change as you feel a need too
3 Point Per NPC with ECL 4-7
3 Point Per NPC with ECL 7-10
4 Points Per NPC with ECL 11+
6 Points per 1000 Infantry
5 Points per 500 Calvary
4 Points per 1000 Archers
Chnage as you feel necessary

Battle Phases
During the course of a Large battle, you will need to deteremine how many Battle Roll-Offs there will be and how often
This is completely arbitrary, but I generally keep it down to 6-10, And these can be done Before and After a "Pivotal Battle Point"

Battle Roll
During a Battle Phase, each Army makes an Offensive Roll and Defenseive roll
Offensive Roll: One Army rolls (D20+Offensive bonus)..This is the amount of "potential" Damage to AP the Army will do
Defensive Roll: The opposing Army rolls (D20+Defensive Bonus), this is the amount of AP Damage that is prevented
The outcomes are deteremined simultaneously

Battle Roll Bonuses
These are examples..change/add as needed

Offense Bonuses
1 Point Per NPC with ECL 4-7
2 Point Per NPC with ECL 7-10
3 Points Per NPC with ECL 11+
3 Points per 1000 Infantry
4 Points per 500 Calvary
5 Points per 1000 Archers
2 Point Per Siege Engine

Defensive Bonuses
1 Point Per NPC with ECL 4-7
2 Point Per NPC with ECL 7-10
3 Points Per NPC with ECL 11+
4 Points per 1000 Infantry
6 Points per 500 Calvary
2 Points per 1000 Archers
8 Points for Fortified Location (Castle/Keep)

PBP and Misc Bonuses
Assign any Pivotal Battle Points acquired
Feel free to give either OFF/DEF for any leadership skills from PC/NPCs


Pivotal Battle Point (PBP)
"Plan the Battle" (game Session for Players) decide upon 3-5 Pivotal Battle Points (More if needed)
These are basically encounters on the Battle field in which the outcome of them will influence the remaining Battle Rolls in the Battle Phases
Design an encounter, deteremine what the Bonus (or Penalty) would be for the outcome of the PBP

Pivotal Battle Point bonuses are accumulative and used each remaining Battle Phase Roll off...this represents the tide of the battle...if a few PBP encounters are succesful...the battle can be over in quick order..

Examples:
Hold the bridge for X rounds..if Held after X, +10 Defensive Bonus
Take the bridge in X rounds..if taken in X rounds, +10 Offensive Bonus
PC and Infamous NPC (BBEG, general etc) face off in battle..Winner gets +10 morale Bonus to Offensive and Defensive
Breach\Defened the Castle Wall in X rounds
Destroy the dam in X rounds...+10 Offensive

Morale Checks..
Feel free to play up morale checks when AP falls below 60% after a Battle Phase
Keep in mind NPC and PC potetnial morale Bonuses
You can also assign Morale Bonuses or penalties to Pivotal battle Outcomes


The AP and Bonuse values, PBP Values may need tweaking as needed..
You can even pre-plan a battle, create some armies with values and use some dice rolling generators out there to see what the potential outcomes would be ..
Or do it with pen and paper..

This will allow a hugely outnumbered Army/ PC group to even win a war with Heroic Actions in a PBP to win the battle

A large battle should only take about 20 rolls to deteremine the outcome..the deciding factor should be the PBP bonuses

[Furnok]

Its not bad, but what about equipment. Say you have a 1000 with hide armor and spears vs. 1000 troops in Full Plate, Lg steel shields and Mst long swords. You dont have any "army points" to show any differnces in equipment, expierence of troops, or command structure. With some refineing this could be a very good system.

[Ranos]

Also, tactics should probably have some sort of impact. Magic too.

[Allan Surgite]

This is completely unreasonable. What you should do is pit the protagonists on their own, against a 1000-strong army. And each of those 1000 men must have each of their die rolled individually. Take a break when your hand starts cramping.

Serious note; what the above two said are my thoughts.

[Snake-Aes]

If it's going to be that detailed, I recommend you to switch entirely to an actual wargame and interface it with the actual game.

[braxsus]

The goal here is to give a qauntitative value to two opposing armies, what thos values are is quite irrelative, just that the two values are accurate in its contrast to the two armies.

The REAL issue is making sure that the PC's actually have an influence on the outcome

The value points given are merely a suggestion to establish the value of an army to make the contrast...what value you put on them are up to you..

In ITS MOST SIMPLIST FORM
You reflect an Army's strength, both in offense and defense, by increasing the AP...reflecting not only how long a army stays on the field of Battle before defeated or routed, but how long it actually stay on the field doing battle

Think of it this way...this example is not mathmatically accurate, just for example
An Army with 100 AP, and an Attack Bonus of +20, can theoretically last on the battle field for 5 rounds
Is the Same as saying
An Army with 500 AP, and an Attack Bonus of 0, can theoretically last on the battle field for 5 rounds

Merely by giving more AP to an Army Can and does reflect its Offensivie or Defensive strength.

Again, the objective is that the (PBP) Pivotal Battle Point encounter is designed to be the Tide turner

You could just as well start with ONLY AP for the armies, and the only Battle Phase Bonuses gained are from PBP encounter outcomes
Large 500 AP
Medium 250 AP
Small 100 AP

The AP chart and bonuses its just a handy way if you actually want tio itemize the Army...which can get into minutia

[Yukitsu]

Boot up a lobby match in total war. It's fast, fun, efficient, and the computer handles things like rules arbitration. It is really, really hard to get people to agree on the balance of a system like this.

[braxsus]

Its not about determining which Army will win..its about determining what influence PC's could have on the outcome of a battle..

The above system I and another DM designed and used to have two player groups acutally decide the battle outcome between different campaigns (in our shared world) Too opposing kingdoms , their armies with the party heros leading them

The battle took 3 game sessions with 9 Different Pivotal Battle Points bonuses awarded to either side..

It worked great..the outcome of the battle was still an unknown by either DM and neither side knew who would come out on top not until around the 8th PBP...And the battle rolls themselves took mayb a total of 20 minutes total game time through the enire three sessions..
Everything elese was standard D&D battles
i and the other DM alternated GMing between the 9 batlles

The outcome fundametally had real impact on the campign environment for both groups

[Ernir]

Do you own/have access to Heroes of Battle? I haven't taken a close look at much of its crunch, but I know it deals with this sort of stuff (PCs as part of armies).

[Yukitsu]

Its not about determining which Army will win..its about determining what influence PC's could have on the outcome of a battle..


Simple. Give them relevant, realistic objectives. If they succeed, their side wins. Actually figuring out the battle takes the importance of what they are doing away from them, and a good story teller can weave what they're doing into the battle to make it seem like they really made a difference.

[braxsus]

I read it, liked some things, thought other things went into minutia, making the process more complicated then I felt it needed to be..

This system, granted an overly simple system, took:
30 minutes to prepare, between two DM's
20 minutes of game time to play out

Leaveing 90% of the time for plannining and playing the normal PC battle encounters..
in which in the end, the outcome kept everyone interested, including the DMs, and probably the outcome was no different then any other system..which would have take much more work/hassle

[braxsus]

Simple. Give them relevant, realistic objectives. If they succeed, their side wins.

I would normally agree to this, about clear objectives on what you need to win the battle..

This system came out of the necessaisty in which we had two opposing PC groups and their Armies doing battle..


Actually figuring out the battle takes the importance of what they are doing away from them, and a good story teller can weave what they're doing into the battle to make it seem like they really made a difference.

This is not what happened though..both PC groups, Winning the PBP is actually what became important, because that is what influneced the the battle