Binder/Bard: feasible?

[Talbot]

I'm not very familiar with either class, but I've just started playing a Bard and from a fluff/RP standpoint it'd make sense for him to take some levels in Binder. At a cursory level, this seems like a decent pairing, what with both classes relying heavily on Cha, but I figured I'd see what the playground thought.

[Prodan]

Great for Diplomancers.

[Optimystik]

Binders actually don't need Cha at all. It helps with the Binding checks, but the penalties for failing are minor, and in some cases can be a lot of fun in their own right.

As a social Binder, your number one vestige will be Naberius - just don't sing.

[thompur]

Mechanically, you can't go wrong with Binder. The Binder is very versatile, so you can always pick a vestige that will be useful, if not optimal.

[Caphi]

Binders actually don't need Cha at all. It helps with the Binding checks, but the penalties for failing are minor, and in some cases can be a lot of fun in their own right.

Aren't vestige save DCs based on charisma?

[Optimystik]

Aren't vestige save DCs based on charisma?

Yes - but many of the best vestiges have abilities that don't require saves e.g. Savnok, Zceryll, Paimon, Desharis, Abysm etc.

[PId6]

Definitely consider Anima Mage. With Improved Binding, you only need 1 level of binder to get in, and it advances your bard casting (at a cost of your bardic music abilities and skills). Overall, it's not a great combo, and something like wizard or sorcerer works much better, but if you want a bard/binder, Anima Mage makes it playable. Make sure to consider Sublime Chord later.

[Talbot]

Conceptually, I'd rather the character progress his bardic music than his bardic casting... Basically, I want a guy who's awesome at the violin, but also a good binder. Can it be done? The rest of the party is moderately optimized, but nothing super-powered.

[Ramza1987]

If you want to fullfill roleplay fluff, you can put ranks in perform (string instrument [i think]), and get binder lvls.

If you want to have bardic music, i dont know a way to improve it; maybe homebrew a feat like devoted performer.

[PId6]

Conceptually, I'd rather the character progress his bardic music than his bardic casting... Basically, I want a guy who's awesome at the violin, but also a good binder. Can it be done? The rest of the party is moderately optimized, but nothing super-powered.
Officially, there's no way to progress bardic music and binding at the same time. You can get fairly decent Inspire Courage with only 3-4 levels of bard and lots of items + feats though. Bard 2/Binder 1/Bard +2/Anima Mage X gets you decent binding, almost full bard casting, and good Inspire Courage if you optimize for it. Badge of Valor, Inspirational Boost, Vest of Legends, Song of the Heart, Masterwork Mandolin, and Dragonfire Inspiration all together adds up to +6d6 fire damage to every attack. Words of Creation can double that to +12d6.

[avr]

A one-level dip in Binder works just fine. Don't sweat it.

[Cahokia]

As a social Binder, your number one vestige will be Naberius - just don't sing.

That's true--Naberius' sign means your voice is "gravelly and growling," and probably not fit for performance

That said (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxLAT2U1bCc)...:smallwink:

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Conceptually, I'd rather the character progress his bardic music than his bardic casting... Basically, I want a guy who's awesome at the violin, but also a good binder.
Going for a bit of Erich Zann? :smallwink:

[Zaq]

On the subject of failing pact checks, it's worth mentioning that you can't suppress the sign of a vestige with whom you've made a poor pact. Now sure, some of the signs are easily concealed or innocuous, and some of them are required to be active so you can use their granted abilities, but overall... well, if your GM has any propensity for having people accuse your characters of being demons and/or demon worshipers, and you don't think you can make your pact checks, make sure that you take some ranks in Disguise with your Bard levels.

[Person_Man]

By taking levels of Binder, you're not progressing Inspire Courage (which is VERY useful when optimized) or other Bardic Music uses, and you lose at least one level of spellcasting unless your DM allows you entry into Anima Mage without any Binder levels (which by RAW is possible, but I don't know anyone who does it).

By taking levels of Bard, you're not getting your useful Binder class abilities (which top out around +10 Initiative and Mind Blank at high levels), you're not progressing the number of vestiges you can use (which tops out at 4 vestiges at 20th level), your vestige Save DC's (10 + 1/2 Binder level + Cha bonus), or your effective Binder level - which is very important for the Binder's most powerful vestiges, such as Desharis (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a) (unlimited Animate Objects) and Zceryll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) (unlimited Summon Alien).

However, it would definitely work for some very specific builds, especially at low levels. Something like Bard 1/Binder X/War Chanter X.

And I recently noticed a weird Smite Evil combo. There's a feat called From Smite to Song in Champions of Valor that let's you burn a Smite Evil use to Inspire Courage with an effective Bard level equal to your Paladin level. This makes a Paladin 20 with Leadership and Dragonfire Inspiration an interesting option. But if your DM is willing to house rule that From Smite to Song works with Binder levels, you could use the Andras vestige to gain Smite Evil/Inspire Courage once every 5 rounds.

[Optimystik]

That's true--Naberius' sign means your voice is "gravelly and growling," and probably not fit for performance

Correct - and while there are no mechanical penalties attached to the signs per se, the DM is encouraged to come up with his own - for example, a circumstance penalty to dealing with NPCs when you show Amon's sign (ram horns on your head.)

[sonofzeal]

That's true--Naberius' sign means your voice is "gravelly and growling," and probably not fit for performance

That said (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxLAT2U1bCc)...:smallwink:
I saw the first half of your post quoted by Optimystik, and my first thought was "ahaha I'll link to Tom Waits!"

Stupid ninjas. :smallbiggrin: Though I would have linked Waltzing Matilda or Alice, personally. Or Kommienezuspadt.

[IdleMuse]

A 1-level dip of Warrior Skald will allow you to retain your Bardic Music progression in line with your Perform skill ranks, in terms of abilities gained, not in terms of uses/day. So you can still gain the higher Inspire Courages, and Inspire Greatness, and all that, even though you're not massively invested in Bardic levels. Uses/day can be propped up with Extra Music if necessary.

It's indeed possible to qualify for Warrior Skald without any levels of actual Bard, if you really want to go the no-spellcasting Bardic route. Binder 6/Warrior Skald 1/Binder +13 if you really want the whole hog regards Binding, although you need some sort of way of getting Perform as a class skill. Apprentice (Entertainer) for instance, or Aereni Focus for an Elf. I'd suggest picking up a two-level dip of Marshal as well if you go Cha-focused. You still get 8th-level vestiges, and also have a handy pair of auras.

[Talbot]

I've already got three levels of bard, but my DM may let me trade one or two of them out... I'll look into Warrior Skald.