OOTS #737 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[afroakuma]

...annnnnd a Banjo reference right off the top. True cleric shop talk. :smallbiggrin:

And that actually nicely resolves a plot hole in Norse mythology regarding those who die of too much victory feasting.

[Bongos]

How sweet the clerics having a bit o' tea.

[Salty]

I can't help but feel that the panel with Xykon is more important than it looks. :smalleek:

[HZ514]

Awesome comic! Keep up the great work, Giant! :smallbiggrin:

[Sutremaine]

I can't help but feel that the panel with Xykon is more important than it looks. :smalleek:
He's looking for O-Chul and for his phylactery, and the power of Tiamat can probably get through the abjurations on both. So it's not necessarily important, but filling in a (what turns out to be minor) plot hole.

[Goosefeather]

Well, looks like those people who speculated Xykon had gone to visit the Oracle were spot on!

I rather liked the little pause in the action here - seems like the plot recently picked up at breakneck pace, so this is a welcome breather.

[dsavereide]

So Xykon actually follows a God. Intresting. Here I thought he was freelancer.

I like the swapping of the drink. The 'hey look' trick is usually to switch the other guys drink.

[Kish]

So Xykon actually follows a God.
Erm. No. The point of that panel is that the Oracle of the Sunken Valley, follower of Tiamat, is keeping out of world politics by dodging Xykon.

[treyh37]

love that durkons distracts him to spike his drink with his hip flask, must be hard all these years with barely any good booze

also love that instead of dying a natural death most dwarves prefer to fight a tree tell they die.

[Fable Wright]

Win. Just win. They are honored out of respect for the livers... wow. Dwarves. :smallbiggrin: Gotta laugh at/love them.

[Boogastreehouse]

Well well,

looks like we have a clue as to where Xykon sneaks off to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html). Or at least where he snuck off to this time.

[Goosefeather]

So Xykon actually follows a God. Intresting. Here I thought he was freelancer.


I took that panel to be referring to the Oracle following Tiamat, rather than Xykon - it's a coincidence that by referencing the Oracle, we are given a glimpse of what X was up to.

Edit - Ninja'd, of course.

[SPoD]

Erm. No. The point of that panel is that the Oracle of the Sunken Valley, follower of Tiamat, is keeping out of world politics by dodging Xykon.

Alternately, that Malack's assessment of Tiamat's followers is incorrect, and the Oracle has stepped out to engage in some act likely to have worldwide consequences (possibly involving Vaarsuvius).

Or, most likely, both at the same time.

[Yendor]

Nice. Interesting to hear who Malack worships.

(There's a typo in panel 10: "goddes" should have two S's.)

[A Weeping Angel]

Great comic. Really like learning about the belief systems and mechanics of both the dwarfs and lizardfolk. Plus may have a new sig in the whole "only the good die for good"

[Dusk Eclipse]

Great Comic Giant!!!!:smallbiggrin:

I love the way Malac views Death as more neutral (which in my opinion is the best way to handle it)

Also Hail the brave livers that gave their lives to protect their alcoholic owners!

Edit:Mr. Scruffy recieved a treat!!! how thoughtful of Malack or more probably Durkon.

[Fitzclowningham]

I also find it kind of odd that Malack worships human gods. It's only a bit more odd than Durkon doing the same...

[Woodsman]

Good job! Not the same kind of laugh-out-loud antics like the past strips, but still quite entertaining.

Very slight nitpick; Hel is not supposed to look beautiful. She's supposed to have one half of her face (well, body, really) look disease-ridden and dead. Of course, artistic license, so whatever. In the end, it's still a good comic, and it's not supposed to be mythologically accurate.

[Blue Ghost]

I noticed how Malack didn't explicitly say that he or his god were not evil.

[SaintRidley]

Heh, expansion on the Northern pantheon's rules is fun.

[Sutremaine]

Malack worships one human god and one lion-headed lizard god. :smalltongue: The lion tail? Oh, that's there for the look of the thing. Everyone knows that the bits that aren't lion are lizard, so no need to go overboard with the underlying lizard bits.

[Mando Knight]

Love the hip-flask. Imported dwarven ale, or does he make do with the watery human-made stuff that he can find just about anywhere?

[Aethir]

Y'know, it's really quite nice to see the two of them getting along directly.

Nice to know there isn't any direct hatred between the two simply because they worship different pantheons.

[slayerx]

no plot advancement, but still a nice little informative update.... here I thought durkon was gonna do somethign to royally offend malack (came kinda close though)

Well, it's good to know that Durkon's grandfather went to the good afterlife in the end ^^

[DreadArchon]

I like the panel with Xykon. I didn't see that coming. Great call-out to the main plot in an otherwise relaxed strip!

[Detrinex]

Kind of a mix between filler and remembering the side plot about getting the OotS back together via talking to Kilkil and keeping up the plot, plus a good little punchline there too.

[sihnfahl]

also love that instead of dying a natural death most dwarves prefer to fight a tree tell they die.
Or anything that would justify an honorable death in combat.

A dwarf drinking until they're completely smashed and feeding themselves to a dragon in order to kill it via alcohol poisoning?

[Elfin]

Always interesting to find out more about the Western Continent.

[Corian]

Glad to see my Nergal guess confirmed. And kudos to whoever called Ereshkigal. (Ereshkagal looks like a typo?)
The last line really got me laughing, and may even beat the previous wonderful strip, which is saying something.

[Chaos Nerd]

You know, I have to admit, I was even expecting them to hate each other by the end of this page.........

Somehow I won't be surprised if they do eventually, though :smalleek:

[Shatteredtower]

I don't know what that was, but enjoyed it immensely.

[ClockShock]

So... Why was Mr. Scruffy there?

You know, I'm beginning to like the Lizreaper

[Gwynfrid]

Beautiful strip, superb punchline. Also, I love seeing more of Durkon, who had been overshadowed by the rest of the cast over the past book. And yes, I can't help thinking there's something important hidden in here...

Keep them coming, Giant !

Side note: One typo in panel 10, "goddes".

[sihnfahl]

So... Why was Mr. Scruffy there?
Cause he can't smell where Belkar is. And he was getting fed.

Cat priorities. Food first, pet second.

[Anitar]

Or anything that would justify an honorable death in combat.

A dwarf drinking until they're completely smashed and feeding themselves to a dragon in order to kill it via alcohol poisoning?

If I ever end up playing a dwarf I should try that.

Or maybe I should submit it to the "Things Mr. Welsh is No Longer Allowed to do in an RPG" list.

[John Cribati]

My unending salute goes to all those livers that died in the struggle.

[Detrinex]

Good old dwarven liver-loving!

[xyzchyx]

And the question for Xykon to ask the Oracle is... assuming that Xykon actually does manage to track him down is...

No, it's not "where is my phylactery?" because the oracle is a smartass and would probably answer the question with something unhelpful like "the sewers of azure city".

It's not even "where, exactly, is my phylactery", because again, the oracle is a smartass and would apply his answer to the present tense only... if there are any currents in the sewers, which is not impossible, the phylactery may be moving.

The question Xykon should ask the oracle is "where, exactly, will I find my phylactery?"
The answer to that question would put Xykon's concerns to a close.... and depending on the answer, may cause the oracle to need to be resurrected again if Xykon loses his temper at hearing an answer he doesn't like.

[Porthos]

The answer to that question would put Xykon's concerns to a close.... and depending on the answer, may cause the oracle to need to be resurrected again if Xykon loses his temper at hearing an answer he doesn't like.

Nah. He already knows the next time he needs to be resurrected (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html). Which, come to think of it, might just be the reason why he ditched Xykon. :smallamused:

[Gray Mage]

The question Xykon should ask the oracle is "where, exactly, will I find my phylactery?"

But this question still can get an get an useless answer, as it's likely that a hobbo will find it so the answer could be "in the hands of hobbo mook #365".

[orrion]

Erm. No. The point of that panel is that the Oracle of the Sunken Valley, follower of Tiamat, is keeping out of world politics by dodging Xykon.

Wait a second, then how was the Oracle able to answer Roy's question about the order in which Xykon would go after the gates?

[Boogastreehouse]

And the question for Xykon to ask the Oracle is... assuming that Xykon actually does manage to track him down is...

No, it's not "where is my phylactery?" because the oracle is a smartass and would probably answer the question with something unhelpful like "the sewers of azure city".

It's not even "where, exactly, is my phylactery", because again, the oracle is a smartass and would apply his answer to the present tense only... if there are any currents in the sewers, which is not impossible, the phylactery may be moving.

The question Xykon should ask the oracle is "where, exactly, will I find my phylactery?"
The answer to that question would put Xykon's concerns to a close.... and depending on the answer, may cause the oracle to need to be resurrected again if Xykon loses his temper at hearing an answer he doesn't like.

Or maybe, just to avoid wasting a bunch of time...

The question Xykon should ask the oracle is "where and when, exactly, will I find my phylactery?"

Actually Grey Mage has a good point... "where and when, exactly, will my phylactery be found, and by whom?"

[sihnfahl]

Wait a second, then how was the Oracle able to answer Roy's question about the order in which Xykon would go after the gates?
The Snarl being unleashed would kinda interfere with Tiamat's goals.

[Blackdog]

But this question still can get an get an useless answer, as it's likely that a hobbo will find it so the answer could be "in the hands of hobbo mook #365".

That's not useless; Xykon would just have to kill the mook (and disintegrate the remains) to cause the prophecy to come true more quickly.

[Yendor]

Actually Grey Mage has a good point... "where and when, exactly, will my phylactery be found, and by whom?"

"One question per customer, Bones."

[Defiant]

Hahaha! Defending an orphanage! Classic :smallbiggrin:

[Porthos]

Wait a second, then how was the Oracle able to answer Roy's question about the order in which Xykon would go after the gates?

He just doesn't want to deal with Xykon personally. Dude is frickin' scary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) after all. :smallwink:

[Gray Mage]

That's not useless; Xykon would just have to kill the mook (and disintegrate the remains) to cause the prophecy to come true more quickly.

Sorry,but I don't follow your logic.If the mook is dead, wouldn't he never find it in the first place?

[Boogastreehouse]

Or maybe, just to avoid wasting a bunch of time...

The question Xykon should ask the oracle is "where and when, exactly, will I find my phylactery?"

Actually Grey Mage has a good point... "where and when, exactly, will my phylactery be found, and by whom?"

"One question per customer, Bones."


I'm a firm believer that if you can structure your question to include all the information you want, it counts, so long as it is still grammatically correct. This applies to wishes as well.

[derfenrirwolv]

Bahahaha.. oracle, smartest. Move. ever.

Isn't that the dwarven paladin that was getting chased by the rust monster and now seems to have died of mummyrot ?

Nice to see some insight into dwarven religion. Perhaps dwarves are so laid back because all the zannyness is reserved for high holy functions?

[Boogastreehouse]

Sorry,but I don't follow your logic.If the mook is dead, wouldn't he never find it in the first place?

Ah, but if Xykon kills him, that means that he must have already found it!

[Gray Mage]

Ah, but if Xykon kills him, that means that he must have already found it!

But, if he had already found it,then why kill him?:smallconfused:
That is assuming Xykon needs a motive,I know, but it still wouldn't be faster.

[Zombie Nixon]

If Roy and Durkon could get the oracle to give them a third question, something tells me Xykon can

[Blackdog]

But, if he had already found it,then why kill him?:smallconfused:
That is assuming Xykon needs a motive,I know, but it still wouldn't be faster.

Well sure, if he finds it first he doesn't need to kill the mook, but when he kills the mook (or rather, disintegrates it), the prophecy would require that the phylactery somehow appear in the mook's hands, possibly at the last moment.

[Porthos]

Isn't that the dwarven paladin that was getting chased by the rust monster and now seems to have died of mummyrot ?

Nah, it looks like they are different people. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html)

Would have been a nice call back, though.

[CoffeeIncluded]

This is great. Who says clerics can't get along? :smallbiggrin:

[DreadArchon]

Why not just, "What, specifically, should I do to get my phylactery back, as quickly and safely as possible?"

Also, you all seem to be assuming the Oracle can't lie while in his trance, if he really wants to. Granted, avoiding Xykon is easier, but we have no reason to believe the Oracle must reply honestly.

[Gray Mage]

Also, you all seem to be assuming that the Oracle can't lie while in his trance, if he really wants to. Granted, avoiding Xykon is easier, but we have no reason to believe that the Oracle must reply honestly.

Actually, I belive Rich has stated that everything the oracle says is 100% true, althought sometimes is also 100% useless as well.

[Kareasint]

If Roy and Durkon could get the oracle to give them a third question, something tells me Xykon can

The Oracle is going to be nowhere near where Xykon can get to him. If I had the power to see into the future as well as the Oracle and I saw an Epic Level Necromantic Sorcerer coming my way, I would take a long distance vacation and not return for a while. Nice idea on Xykon's part though. A diety's magic can cut through earthly magic.

[Gift Jeraff]

I interpreted the Xykon panel as the Oracle foreseeing that Xykon would visit him and thus avoiding him because, as the Oracle said himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html), "Dude is frickin' scary." (EDIT: Ninja'd.)

Anyway, nice comic. Hope D asks Malack about why he became involved in politics in the first place, thus giving us some nice flashbacks about Malack and Tarquin.

[sihnfahl]

Anyway, nice comic. Hope D asks Malack about why he became involved in politics in the first place, thus giving us some nice flashbacks about Malack and Tarquin.
It's profitable?

[Gray Mage]

Well sure, if he finds it first he doesn't need to kill the mook, but when he kills the mook (or rather, disintegrates it), the prophecy would require that the phylactery somehow appear in the mook's hands, possibly at the last moment.

Or Xykon could do that and Phylactery doesn't appear and RC has to ress the mook,althought I'm not sure if you were actually serious now.

[Red XIV]

Also, you all seem to be assuming the Oracle can't lie while in his trance, if he really wants to. Granted, avoiding Xykon is easier, but we have no reason to believe the Oracle must reply honestly.
Given that he's established to make accurate prophecies that cause his own death, I think it's safe to say, yes. He must reply honestly.

Sure, he can always arrange for clerics to show up and resurrect him right away, but dying still hurts. Lying would be the rational thing to do, unless it's just not an option.


Or Xykon could do that and Phylactery doesn't appear and RC has to ress the mook,althought I'm not sure if you were actually serious now.

That's why X would have to use the ever-popular Disintegrate + Gust of Wind. Even if Recloak has True Resurrection, he's certainly not going to waste it on a random mook.

[Tobimaro]

Now if only religious discussions in our world would be like this one. :smallbiggrin:

Anyways, I was wondering if Durkon has put any ranks in Bluff (or did he max out his check to distract Malack? Just wondering. :smallsmile:

[xyzchyx]

Or maybe, just to avoid wasting a bunch of time...

The question Xykon should ask the oracle is "where and when, exactly, will I find my phylactery?"

Actually Grey Mage has a good point... "where and when, exactly, will my phylactery be found, and by whom?"
Not necessary... Asking where and when makes sense, but asking by whom wouldn't matter, because by simply asking where and when, exactly, he will find his phylactery and getting an answer to that exact question, he establishes exactly where he must be to find it and the exact time he will have to be there to do it. Regardless of who may find it before him, he will still find it at that location and that time or the prophecy wouldn't come true otherwise. If the answer is "You won't", then he also knows that he won't find it, and knows he must to go through the process of constructing a new one.

[sihnfahl]

Anyways, I was wondering if Durkon has put any ranks in Bluff (or did he max out his check to distract Malack? Just wondering. :smallsmile:
Circumstance bonus: Malack believes him a Pilgrim and Durkon inquired about his Gods.

[Jimorian]

I'm a firm believer that if you can structure your question to include all the information you want, it counts, so long as it is still grammatically correct. This applies to wishes as well.

This is where you better be damned careful with your serial commas. :smalltongue:

[Gray Mage]

Not necessary... Asking where and when makes sense, but asking by whom wouldn't matter, because by simply asking where and when, exactly, he will find his phylactery and getting an answer to that exact question, he establishes exactly where he must be to find it and the exact time he will have to be there to do it. Regardless of who may find it before him, he will still find it at that location and that time or the prophecy wouldn't come true otherwise. If the answer is "You won't", then he also knows that he won't find it, and knows he must to go through the process of constructing a new one.

Yes,but as I said before the answer could be "in the hands of mook #638 right after he finds it", which is not usefull at all.Besides,the opinion that he can make a new one is not certain and even if it is, the phylactery would have to be destroyed first, which can't be concluded by a "you won't" answer.So my proposed question is: "where and when will the person/(hob)goblin that finds my phylactery finds it"

[Scarlet Knight]

Dwarf cleric: "Well, Mrs Stonesplitter, we cannot save old Auran."
Wife: "Wha' shallay do, Fadar?"
Dwarf Cleric: "Here, just continue giving him this brandy."
Wife: "Wist! Thada killem fer sure!"
Dwarf Cleric: "Aye."
Wife: "Thankye Fadar!"

:smallwink:

[deuxhero]

You know, I have to admit, I was even expecting them to hate each other by the end of this page.........

Somehow I won't be surprised if they do eventually, though :smalleek:

Agreed, I love having 2 clerics just sit down and nicely discuss things.


I find it odd that Brother Thundershield is not doing some critical research failures given that he failed to know who Loki was (prehaps he has boosted his Know:religion).

[FlawedParadigm]

Y'know, on second reading, I think the funniest part is what Xykon says. He doesn't say "damn", "crap", or anything else you might reasonably expect out of him, all things considered. He goes with the very mild "nuts" when by all rights he should be furious.

Doubly funny since he uh...doesn't have nuts.

[Dr.Epic]

Yay! Another comic with Thor!

[teratorn]

Nice to know that Durkon's grandfather went to a decent afterlife. Both his livers died in battle!

[GSFB]

I find it odd that Brother Thundershield is not doing some critical research failures given that he failed to know who Loki was

It could be he just miserably failed that particular roll since he was smitten by the first she dwarf he'd seen in ages.

[Alaska Fan]

And the question for Xykon to ask the Oracle is... assuming that Xykon actually does manage to track him down is...

No, it's not "where is my phylactery?" because the oracle is a smartass and would probably answer the question with something unhelpful like "the sewers of azure city".

It's not even "where, exactly, is my phylactery", because again, the oracle is a smartass and would apply his answer to the present tense only... if there are any currents in the sewers, which is not impossible, the phylactery may be moving.

The question Xykon should ask the oracle is "where, exactly, will I find my phylactery?"
The answer to that question would put Xykon's concerns to a close.... and depending on the answer, may cause the oracle to need to be resurrected again if Xykon loses his temper at hearing an answer he doesn't like.

The last place you look.

[xyzchyx]

Yes,but as I said before the answer could be "in the hands of mook #638 right after he finds it", which is not usefull at all.Besides,the opinion that he can make a new one is not certain and even if it is, the phylactery would have to be destroyed first, which can't be concluded by a "you won't" answer.So my proposed question is: "where and when will the person/(hob)goblin that finds my phylactery finds it"
He doesn't really need to know who has it because if the oracle says where he will find it, then Xykon definitely knows he will find it at that place and time. He can't miss it either just because he doesn't know who has it because every oracle's prediction comes true, and him missing it at that time would make the oracle's prediction false. Furthermore, if the phylactery remains in somebody's posession after the encounter, then he would not have actually retrieved it, which the notion of finding something generally connotes (as opposed to simply locating it). In light of this, I suppose to ensure that the Oracle doesn't use "locate" as a synonym for "find", Xykon should probably use the word "retrieve" instead of "find", which I think unambiguously indicates his desired goal. Ultimately, "when and where" is wholly adequate to give Xykon the answers he needs to retrieve the phylactery. Of course, this is all assuming that the answer is not the unhelpful "you wont", which would doubtless end up with Xykon being one p***ed of lich, and the first casualty of his ensuing tantrum would doubtless be the Oracle.

[GalenDev]

Gotta wonder what Malack's angle is here. He seems obviously Evil, but at the same time, he's trying to make a point about, well, not being evil. Is he trying to pull a fast one on Durkon, or is he just trying to keep the two of them getting along?

I love the jokes, but I REALLY want to know what Tarquin and Malack's endgame is.

[The_Weirdo]

Good job! Not the same kind of laugh-out-loud antics like the past strips, but still quite entertaining.

Very slight nitpick; Hel is not supposed to look beautiful. She's supposed to have one half of her face (well, body, really) look disease-ridden and dead. Of course, artistic license, so whatever. In the end, it's still a good comic, and it's not supposed to be mythologically accurate.

I sure like her better as she is. Sexy gray-haired goddess FTW! ;)

[borg286]

Ah, but if Xykon kills him, that means that he must have already found it!

The Oracle already told his friends to resurrect him at a certain time, which I presume is after the current date, implying that X would not have killed him now. But since the oracle knew X was coming and "found he had a very important meeting with somewhere else" he's fine.

[Belsirk]

yey, some question more answered... though if i had a good domain on the enlighs i should have a better time reading all those lines of durkon :smalleek:

Seem Malack it's neutral... but LN, N, NE ? not sure but i go by LN and it's good to see Durkon din't abadon the poor cat

[Learnedguy]

Gotta wonder what Malack's angle is here. He seems obviously Evil, but at the same time, he's trying to make a point about, well, not being evil. Is he trying to pull a fast one on Durkon, or is he just trying to keep the two of them getting along?

I love the jokes, but I REALLY want to know what Tarquin and Malack's endgame is.

They already are at their endgame. Rulers of a nation.

And because Malack's gods so far haven't been portrayed as particularly aggressive towards foreign deities, I suppose there's nothing wrong with a bit of chat with a fellow collegue.

I mean, what's he would he want to do? Steal Durkon's armor?

[JonestheSpy]

And the question for Xykon to ask the Oracle is... assuming that Xykon actually does manage to track him down is...

No, it's not "where is my phylactery?" because the oracle is a smartass and would probably answer the question with something unhelpful like "the sewers of azure city".

It's not even "where, exactly, is my phylactery", because again, the oracle is a smartass and would apply his answer to the present tense only... if there are any currents in the sewers, which is not impossible, the phylactery may be moving.

The question Xykon should ask the oracle is "where, exactly, will I find my phylactery?"
The answer to that question would put Xykon's concerns to a close.... and depending on the answer, may cause the oracle to need to be resurrected again if Xykon loses his temper at hearing an answer he doesn't like.

"The last place you look, obviously"

[silvadel]

Ach, even as a dwarf I would be very careful about drinking from the cup of a high priest of death.

[orrion]

Agreed, I love having 2 clerics just sit down and nicely discuss things.


I find it odd that Brother Thundershield is not doing some critical research failures given that he failed to know who Loki was (prehaps he has boosted his Know:religion).

Where did he fail to know who Loki was? First mention I see of Loki to him is Hilgya saying Loki told her to steal the Talisman from Nale. He didn't question it then. (Comic 74)

[Da'Shain]

The Oracle likely vacated the premises for the express reason that Soul Bind works on just about anyone. And he might end up trapped as the eternal third wheel to Dorukan and Lirian.

Seriously, though, even if he didn't give the lich a smart@$$ answer, Xykon might kill him and Soul Bind him anyway, either on a whim or with the logic that he's too valuable a tool to leave around for enemies to make use of. Of course, that'll then have likely hundreds of clerics and dragons after him ... but Xykon's crazy enough to do something like that, methinks.

[Jan Mattys]

Thereìs also a typo:
It's orphanage, not orphange, If I'm not mistaken.

[factotum]

It could be he just miserably failed that particular roll since he was smitten by the first she dwarf he'd seen in ages.

Or maybe he's put a few ranks in Knowledge (Religion) since then specifically to avoid making the same mistake?

[B.I.T.T.]

Panel six...genius!

Great comic all around as well.

[Bongos]

Shoots, if I was the Oracle, I'd make dang sure I wasn't around when that Xykon fella come a'knockin. Ain't nothin' good never come from no lich a'knockin at yer front door. Leastways, as my grampappy used ta say.

Gonna take a lot more than a few kobolds and a perty ol' sign to put that bony feller in his place.

[snikrept]

Durkon must have rolled very well on his Knowlege(Religion) just now - he apparently knows more about the portfolio of Tiamat than he does about that of Loki, given his cluelessness about Hilgya.

Malack becomes more and more awesome by the page. So... bets on what mind-altering poison Malack has slipped into Durkon's drink? He seems like the type.

[Lvl45DM!]

He associated Lizard with Dragon goddess. A dwarf with high wisdom damn well should be able to link the two

[Xonos]

Anyone ever played Fire Emblem for the Game Boy Advance? because something about Malack's God o' Death tells me that mr. Burlew has been playing Fire Emblem :smallbiggrin:

[LuPuWei]

The Snarl being unleashed would kinda interfere with Tiamat's goals.

I think this pretty much is all there is to say about the Oracle and Xykon.

Also, I like Rich's stance on Death-gods. For alot of Old-world religions, Death wasn't Evil (though, yes, friggin' scary). And anyway, High Priest of Death, has to be the most friggin badass clerical position ever...

[Twilight Jack]

Anyone ever played Fire Emblem for the Game Boy Advance? because something about Malack's God o' Death tells me that mr. Burlew has been playing Fire Emblem :smallbiggrin:

Or, rather, that Fire Emblem plumbed the same Sumerian/Babylonian Mythology for their pantheon that Rich did for his Western One.

These particular deities are seriously B.C.E., my friend.

[Ghostwheel]

Y'know, on second reading, I think the funniest part is what Xykon says. He doesn't say "damn", "crap", or anything else you might reasonably expect out of him, all things considered. He goes with the very mild "nuts" when by all rights he should be furious.

Doubly funny since he uh...doesn't have nuts.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_McAuliffe for a bit of explanation.

[SoC175]

And the question for Xykon to ask the Oracle is... assuming that Xykon actually does manage to track him down is...

No, it's not "where is my phylactery?" because the oracle is a smartass and would probably answer the question with something unhelpful like "the sewers of azure city".

It's not even "where, exactly, is my phylactery", because again, the oracle is a smartass and would apply his answer to the present tense only... if there are any currents in the sewers, which is not impossible, the phylactery may be moving.

The question Xykon should ask the oracle is "where, exactly, will I find my phylactery?"
The answer to that question would put Xykon's concerns to a close.... and depending on the answer, may cause the oracle to need to be resurrected again if Xykon loses his temper at hearing an answer he doesn't like. Actually I guess Xykon could ask whatever he wanted and the Orcale would give him the most correct answer it could find, just because of fear of having his soul trapped (no more resurrection). In fact he probably at home hiding under his bed until Xykon takes the fake sign and goes home.

[Draconi Redfir]

this was a nice comic. nice to see clerics of rival pantheons get along so well:smallbiggrin:

[Skycroft]

That was both thought-provoking and hilariously awesome.

With respect to alignment, both Tarquin and Malack seem to be LE, but a version of the alignment were L>E. Sort of a "the evil we do is justified by the order we create" thing. Malack in particular seems to be very big on forming a strong government here.

[Lycar]

Hehe, as the saying goes, 'the liver grows with her duties'.

I wonder if there are dwarven livers with more levels then their owners. :smallwink:

Lycar

[snafu]

Y'know, it's really quite nice to see the two of them getting along directly.

Nice to know there isn't any direct hatred between the two simply because they worship different pantheons.

If I remember my ancient history, that's quite common with polytheistic cultures. When the Romans conquered Egypt, they didn't try to stamp out the worship of the local gods at all. "So there are more gods around than just ours? Whatever, let them get on with it; we don't want to upset the local gods, we just want to conquer and tax the people." There are many gods in the world, we'll worship ours, you worship yours, everyone pays the Emperor his dues, and we all get along just fine.

The only time the Romans tried to stamp out the religion of a conquered people was when they conquered the Celts, with the whole druidic human sacrifice thing. That wasn't because they had different gods to the Romans, but because there were irreconcilable alignment differences.

From Durkon's perspective, there's certainly alignment tension - he's LG, while his fellow cleric here is probably LN working for an LE empire. But they've enough common ground to deal politely with one another in a civilised and Lawful manner.

[snafu]

Also, I like Rich's stance on Death-gods. For alot of Old-world religions, Death wasn't Evil (though, yes, friggin' scary). And anyway, High Priest of Death, has to be the most friggin badass clerical position ever...

Can I recommend another comic here? Hellblazer, All His Engines. There's a plan afoot by a consortium of demons to harvest souls by various unpleasant means, and they're collaborating with the washed-up old Aztec death god Mictlantecuhtli to put it into action - or at least they're paying him off to look the other way. Part of the solution is to remind the death god of his actual purpose.


"You need to be reminded what you are, mate. A death-god doesn't prey on his people, or trade them like baseball cards. He takes them to wherever they're going. He carries them over the river."

"You dare to lecture me on my duties?"

"So you admit you've got some? That's a start. When were you planning to start living up to them?"


Also, see Hades in Disney's Hercules, and Hades in the actual Greek mythology. Death gods seem to have a habit of forgetting their original purpose and turning into devils by the time they reach the modern era.

[Zolkabro]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but there is a spelling mistake. Panel 10, Malack says the word "goddes" when it should be spelt "goddess".

Very good strip, though.

[Skycroft]

Also, see Hades in Disney's Hercules, and Hades in the actual Greek mythology. Death gods seem to have a habit of forgetting their original purpose and turning into devils by the time they reach the modern era.

Everybody hates Hades (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EverybodyHatesHades). Poor guy. He was actually the nicest of the Greek gods. Which is, admittedly, to quote Jon Stewart, kind of like being the thinnest kid at Fat Camp, but still.

[Gwynfrid]

Reading this for the third time, I noticed the neutral, "hey, what an interesting theological discussion" look on the face of the dead dwarf, standing between the two gods who are fighting for his soul. Hilarious.

[Skycroft]

Reading this for the third time, I noticed the neutral, "hey, what an interesting theological discussion" look on the face of the dead dwarf, standing between the two gods who are fighting for his soul. Hilarious.

It's hard to see, but he has "????" over his head. He's just confused.

[Lkctgo]

Ooh, Murky new relations.

[LuPuWei]

Can I recommend another comic here? Hellblazer, All His Engines. There's a plan afoot by a consortium of demons to harvest souls by various unpleasant means, and they're collaborating with the washed-up old Aztec death god Mictlantecuhtli to put it into action - or at least they're paying him off to look the other way. Part of the solution is to remind the death god of his actual purpose.


"You need to be reminded what you are, mate. A death-god doesn't prey on his people, or trade them like baseball cards. He takes them to wherever they're going. He carries them over the river."

"You dare to lecture me on my duties?"

"So you admit you've got some? That's a start. When were you planning to start living up to them?"


Also, see Hades in Disney's Hercules, and Hades in the actual Greek mythology. Death gods seem to have a habit of forgetting their original purpose and turning into devils by the time they reach the modern era.

Totally. I've had trouble watching Disney movies produced in the 90's :smallyuk:

And I'll recommend Piers Anthony's On a Pale Horse right back atcha...

[Ancalagon]

Also, see Hades in Disney's Hercules, and Hades in the actual Greek mythology. Death gods seem to have a habit of forgetting their original purpose and turning into devils by the time they reach the modern era.

Don't. That work is a very bad (bad) guide for looking at greek mythology. Come on... Hercules' parents as loving parents? Come on... the point of Hercules is that Zeus' wife (Hera) is not the mother and pretty hum... annoyed about that (which is the reason she hates him and tries to make his life pretty annoying).

[mjames]

Yay for Neutral gods of death and their clerics.

Didn't think we actually get a full Durkon "drinking tea" comic.

[Gwynfrid]

It's hard to see, but he has "????" over his head. He's just confused.

Duh. Barely visible on my monitor, even after you pointed it out (thanks). It's hilarious that way, too !

[Fitzclowningham]

Huh. I always thought they'd be called "dwarfonages".

/ducks

[sihnfahl]

Didn't think we actually get a full Durkon "drinking tea" comic.
It's SPECIAL 'tea'.

[magic9mushroom]

"Does not your own pantheon have a goddes of Death?"

- typo in "goddess"

Just like to help.

[BatRobin]

"Does not your own pantheon have a goddes of Death?"

- typo in "goddess"

Just like to help.

You beat me to it.

Great strip, though. Durkon's getting a tad of...development!

[JonestheSpy]

Don't. That work is a very bad (bad) guide for looking at greek mythology. Come on... Hercules' parents as loving parents? Come on... the point of Hercules is that Zeus' wife (Hera) is not the mother and pretty hum... annoyed about that (which is the reason she hates him and tries to make his life pretty annoying).

I believe Snafu was pointing out the habit of modern folks to demonize deities who weren't evil in their actual religion - i.e. Disney Doing It Wrong, just as you point out.

(Really, it's not just a habit of modern people. Most scholars I've encountered believe those evil pre-Olympian Titans were the gods of the people who lived in Greece before the Hellenes arrived.)

[Optimystik]

Durkon must have rolled very well on his Knowlege(Religion) just now - he apparently knows more about the portfolio of Tiamat than he does about that of Loki, given his cluelessness about Hilgya.

Or he simply put more ranks into it since Dorukan's dungeon - he's gained a few levels since then, and it's not as though (non-cloistered) clerics get plenty of ways to use skill points.


Love the hip-flask. Imported dwarven ale, or does he make do with the watery human-made stuff that he can find just about anywhere?

How DO the Dwarves make good ale, anyways? Out of mushrooms? Barley won't grow underground, nor on snowy peaks.

Dragon Age actually resolves the discrepancy - making ale on the surface better than ale below ground, and Oghren being pleasantly surprised when he tries it.

[suszterpatt]

About time Xykon showed up. What's it been, 65 strips?

[DBear]

Don't. That work is a very bad (bad) guide for looking at greek mythology. Come on... Hercules' parents as loving parents? Come on... the point of Hercules is that Zeus' wife (Hera) is not the mother and pretty hum... annoyed about that (which is the reason she hates him and tries to make his life pretty annoying).

Disney animation makes historians cry. Look what they did to Pocahontas.

[tomandtish]

Actually, I suspect the Oracle is ducking Xykon not because of fear of retaliation, but because he doesn't want to help him at all. Helping Xykon by extension helps Redcloak, which increases the likelihood of destroying this reality. And since I agree with those who argue the Oracle has to answer truthfully, not being around to be asked is the easiest way to avoid the issue.

[Zevox]

Or, rather, that Fire Emblem plumbed the same Sumerian/Babylonian Mythology for their pantheon that Rich did for his Western One.

These particular deities are seriously B.C.E., my friend.
Not for a pantheon, actually. The only thing Fire Emblem has in common here is names. The main villain of the first GBA game, Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword, was named Nergal, and the spellbook he fought with was called Ereshkagal. Taken from Sumerian mythology, to be sure, but only the names.

Zevox

[Agi Hammerthief]

Hehe, as the saying goes, 'the liver grows with her duties'.

I wonder if there are dwarven livers with more levels then their owners. :smallwink:

tricky: a Dwarf has two livers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) so they each only get half the XP from the drinks
:smallwink:

[maxon]

Or maybe, just to avoid wasting a bunch of time...

The question Xykon should ask the oracle is "where and when, exactly, will I find my phylactery?"

Actually Grey Mage has a good point... "where and when, exactly, will my phylactery be found, and by whom?"

The answer to which might be 'by Roy Greenhilt, just before you die for good.'

[Darcy]

How DO the Dwarves make good ale, anyways? Out of mushrooms? Barley won't grow underground, nor on snowy peaks.

Dragon Age actually resolves the discrepancy - making ale on the surface better than ale below ground, and Oghren being pleasantly surprised when he tries it.

How do they find anything to eat at all? They trade their finely crafted goods and precious metals for it. Presumably they buy the necessary ingredients, and with a combination of clear mountain spring water and dwarven patience, produce a superior brew.

[JonestheSpy]

Presumably they buy the necessary ingredients, and with a combination of clear mountain spring water and dwarven patience, produce a superior brew.

Or maybe dwarves like a fungusy, full-of rocks kind of beer that humans would find disgusting.

BTW, no one carries beer in flasks - I'm pretty sure that's something stronger.

[DracoDei]

...annnnnd a Banjo reference right off the top. True cleric shop talk. :smallbiggrin:

And that actually nicely resolves a plot hole in Norse mythology regarding those who die of too much victory feasting.

Where is this plot hole referenced in the original mythology? I tried Wikipedia, but I couldn't find it there (I might have missed it).

[Optimystik]

How do they find anything to eat at all? They trade their finely crafted goods and precious metals for it. Presumably they buy the necessary ingredients, and with a combination of clear mountain spring water and dwarven patience, produce a superior brew.

There is no way they could trade for ale and still make it better than ale on the surface. Since it would be... coming from the surface.

Even if they trade for the raw materials instead, how did they learn to make better ale without being able to grow the hops etc. themselves?

Races of Stone hints at barley being grown on the sides of the mountains they live under - but that wouldn't work in an area as cold as Durkon's homeland.

It's just one of the aspects of the fluff I find puzzling.

[airandfingers]

Not sure if anyone's said this yet, but it can't hurt a repeat: In the second-to-last panel, the word orphanage is misspelled "orphange."

[Grimly Feendish]

Actually both Hel and Hades were rulers of the underworld where some dead souls went. Death as the summoner (like the grim reaper) were represented by Odin (to use one of his names) and Hermes in those religions. The Romans linked those two through Mercury "the Germans worship Mercury and Mars" (Tacitus).

[Vemynal]

I *really* enjoyed this. I know it hasnt done anything for the plot and it wasnt overloaded with humor. But it was really a pleasure to read this conversation between two people who value each others company

[Ancalagon]

I *really* enjoyed this. I know it hasnt done anything for the plot

While I agree it was a nice comic, I doubt it has done nothing for the plot.

We first saw Durkon is so lawful he leaves Roy in the prioson of a Lawful Evil place but he is not Lawful enough to refrain from cheating with ugly-tasting tea(?). ;)

[sihnfahl]

We first saw Durkon is so lawful he leaves Roy in the prioson of a Lawful Evil place but he is not Lawful enough to refrain from cheating with ugly-tasting tea(?). ;)
No, he's being Lawful. It's just not RIGHT for a Dwarven Cleric to be at a religious discussion drinking something ... non-alcoholic.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a bottle of port that has 'on the nature of Gods and diseases' written all over it.

[semi]

Did you notice the reference to treephobia again? Durkon says that old dwarves seek out a battle with a conifer so they can die and move to the appropriate afterlife. This is him just being addled, right? It's not actually showing that more dwarves than just him are skert of foliage, right?

[Kish]

On the Origins of PCs:

Yes, all dwarves in Durkon's homeland treat trees as a horrible enemy to be fought.

[semi]

I did not know that. Thanks!

[The Pilgrim]

This whole strip feels like Rich decided to make a filler answering a lot of pending issues raised in the forums.

Like, who the God Couple Malak worships were. Or why Xykon didn't went to the Oracle to find his Phil (clever guy, the Oracle, btw). Or all these people askink for character development for Durkon.

So, it's killing two birds with a single stone. Well done, Rich.

BTW, I agree with Malak, Neutrality fits like a glove to deities of death. When I have had to create a god of death, be it as GM or as a Player, I've always chose Lawful Neutral.

[RndmNumGen]

How DO the Dwarves make good ale, anyways? Out of mushrooms? Barley won't grow underground, nor on snowy peaks.

Don't be silly. Dwarves make wine (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Dwarven_wine) out of mushrooms (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Plump_helmet). Ale (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Dwarven_ale) comes from pig tails (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Pig_tail), which are actually a type of grass that grows underground and is also suitable for weaving into fabric (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Cloth) if it is not brewed.

[Barlen]

That was awesome. I love the relationship between them. Even if our lizard priest is LE he is a gentleman first. I will hate it if/when they have to turn on each other.

In regards to the question Xykon was going to ask, I suspect the discussion here is heading down the wrong track.

Granted the Phylactery is indeed quite important, its not the "be all and end all" importance that people normally give it. He already spurned Redcloak's threat to destroy it given that his soul wasn't currently in it. His typical mode of operation is send an army of mooks to handle the drudgery (searching the sewers for days or weeks) and he already did that.

I think he may have wanted to ask a question that he couldn't get the answer to any other way.
Three possibilities occur to me:
1) Information about the next gate or the fight they would have for it.
2) The ritual and what it actually does. I doubt he really trusts Tsukiko to figure it all out. He probably wants to see if he can replace redcloak in some fashion with someone he can control.
3) Redcloak's betrayal. This is the strongest possibility in my eyes as it fits in a category that he doesn't really know and can't fully predict. Also the Crimson mantle (being a divine artifact) probably provides protection from certain forms of divination.
He spends a lot of time keeping redcloak down and making sure he stays down. He prepared to have the MitD attack Redcloak when he betrays. He knows that RC's betrayal would likely do the most damage to him and what he is trying to achieve.

Of course these may overlap to some extent.

[RndmNumGen]

That was awesome. I love the relationship between them. Even if our lizard priest is LE he is a gentleman first. I will hate it if/when they have to turn on each other.

In regards to the question Xykon was going to ask, I suspect the discussion here is heading down the wrong track.

Granted the Phylactery is indeed quite important, its not the "be all and end all" importance that people normally give it. He already spurned Redcloak's threat to destroy it given that his soul wasn't currently in it. His typical mode of operation is send an army of mooks to handle the drudgery (searching the sewers for days or weeks) and he already did that.

I think he may have wanted to ask a question that he couldn't get the answer to any other way.
Three possibilities occur to me:
1) Information about the next gate or the fight they would have for it.
2) The ritual and what it actually does. I doubt he really trusts Tsukiko to figure it all out. He probably wants to see if he can replace redcloak in some fashion with someone he can control.
3) Redcloak's betrayal. This is the strongest possibility in my eyes as it fits in a category that he doesn't really know and can't fully predict. Also the Crimson mantle (being a divine artifact) probably provides protection from certain forms of divination.
He spends a lot of time keeping redcloak down and making sure he stays down. He prepared to have the MitD attack Redcloak when he betrays. He knows that RC's betrayal would likely do the most damage to him and what he is trying to achieve.

Of course these may overlap to some extent.


I doubt that Recloak would betray Xykon. Not because Redcloak likes Xykon; rather he hates him. However, Redcloak is far too cowardly to ever do something like that (if you've read SoD you would understand).

[Dark Matter]

The answer to that question would put Xykon's concerns to a close.... and depending on the answer, may cause the oracle to need to be resurrected again if Xykon loses his temper at hearing an answer he doesn't like.That's the problem right there. Xykon's stock in trade tactic for dealing with high level annoyances is Soul Bind. No resurrection possible.

[FlawedParadigm]

I doubt that Recloak would betray Xykon. Not because Redcloak likes Xykon; rather he hates him. However, Redcloak is far too cowardly to ever do something like that (if you've read SoD you would understand).

On the contrary, I think Redcloak's betrayal is inevitable. We've seen too many hints towards it (SoD itself contains one involving MitD, if you recall) and eventually, Redcloak's going to say enough is enough. I actually think that Tsukiko being a Mystic Theurge is a bit of fridge brilliance now; either Xykon or Redcloak could betray the other and still accomplish their end goal if they keep Tsukiko's allegiance.

Plus, there's the fact that while both Xykon and Redcloak want the gate plan to happen for different reasons, there's the fact that neither really has any interest in the others' secondary goal; Xykon wants to rule the world, Redcloak wants goblinoids to rule it. The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but Xykon doesn't give an undead dire rat's tailbone about goblinoids so I don't see that working out either. Realistically;

Each will be willing to help the other until either has the means to ditch the other - Tsukiko still doesn't understand the divine part of the ritual and doesn't have the arcane half yet, so Redcloak can't be ditched until then, and Redcloak doesn't have the power to remove Xykon from his plans yet, which is really the only thing holding him back, since it's not like Xykon can restore all the things he's taken from Redcloak. I ultimately predict that Redcloak is going to oust Xykon at some point, because Xykon, truth be told, is not that interesting of a villain. He's really just a cliche, with cliched motives and very little personality. Redcloak, on the other hand, has had a lot more depth, especially with SoD material. Xykon would make a better TVTropes-style Dragon than main villain, but he'd never submit to that role. As such, he'll need to be destroyed, which RC is probably more than willing to let the Order do, before taking his own place as The Big Bad.

[Gray Mage]

I doubt that Recloak would betray Xykon. Not because Redcloak likes Xykon; rather he hates him. However, Redcloak is far too cowardly to ever do something like that (if you've read SoD you would understand).

Well, tecnicaly, acording to SoD
Redcloak already is "betraying" Xykon, as X thinks that the ritual will give them power over the gates, but who will actually get it is the Dark One

[shadowkiller]

The answer to which might be 'by Roy Greenhilt, just before you die for good.'

To which Xykon would repond "Who?"

[delguidance]

Really great comic. Best one for me in a while.

[rewinn]

Love the hip-flask. Imported dwarven ale, or does he make do with the watery human-made stuff that he can find just about anywhere?

:durkon: Tha "Create Food" spell fur a Priest o' Thor wouldna be of any gud at all were it not to include "Create Alcohol". 'tis a nurtrient necessary ta dwarven health!

[Boogastreehouse]

The answer to which might be 'by Roy Greenhilt, just before you die for good.'

To which Xykon would repond "Who?"

(laughter)

[calar]

I like the whole neutrality suits death better thing, its a theme that is not often explored in Dnd.

[Conuly]

Redcloak already is "betraying" Xykon, as X thinks that the ritual will give them power over the gates, but who will actually get it is the Dark One


I'm not so sure Xykon thinks that anymore (if he ever really did)

[Niveus Candidus]

A very important comic to the plot. This whole story-arc has been about Rich never tipping his hand to whether Malack or Tarquin are evil, or if they are merely trying to create a civilized society through the only means possible to a region such as this. We learned in this case that Malack worships a neutral-ish God. Very interesting!


I like the whole neutrality suits death better thing, its a theme that is not often explored in Dnd.

The CORE Gods of death in both 3.X and 4E is neutral. In fact, I believe that even settings such as Faerun and Ebberon have neutral death Gods.

[Darthteej]

The thing about death gods was a good point, but it felt like author tract, rather than natural dialouge :smallsigh:

[RndmNumGen]

I like the whole neutrality suits death better thing, its a theme that is not often explored in Dnd.

In one of the pantheons I made I gave the god of death the Repose, Darkness, Liberation domains, because the Death domain dealt more with Undeath, which he was against.

I gave an Evil god of greed the domain of Death instead, as well as Trickery and Madness.

[Calmypal]

I have been Durkon in panels 5 through 7.

[Aurabolt]

Well, I'm getting that feeling that Malack is certainly at least LE, and that's where the camaraderie between him and Durkon come in; They're both Lawful and serve as the go-to guys for gods on the prime material plane, so of course they would get along. I like playing Clerics because of now only the technical capabilities, but for roleplay such as this, which I get in my online game.

That being said, I do think Durkon is forgetting the other side of his alignment, at least where his friends are concerned. Sure, brush them off because they made a mistake and simply didn't know the laws, right? Let them get screwed over by a system that you should have read by now, or at least gotten quite the information from your new friend? Thanks a lot man.

Clerics are supposed to look after those in their care. Pelor knows it's what most Clerics-even those who get into the heat of battle-generally do.

[slayerx]

That being said, I do think Durkon is forgetting the other side of his alignment, at least where his friends are concerned. Sure, brush them off because they made a mistake and simply didn't know the laws, right? Let them get screwed over by a system that you should have read by now, or at least gotten quite the information from your new friend? Thanks a lot man.


That's what the chancellor is for...
You have to take into account that durkon does not know that malack and Tarquin are the real brains of this operation. He really does have no reason to assume that the high priest has any real say in the policies of the kingdom... the high priest in azure city for instance seems to not much more than serve the king, and perform ceremonial duties... Futharmore, durkon does not realize the danger of their poisition; he thinks there just sitting in a jail cell and as such their is no real reason to rush through things

Roy and Belkar are likely something durkon will address when he speaks to the chancellar

[Ancalagon]

Roy and Belkar are likely something durkon will address when he speaks to the chancellar

He probably won't have time for that. I assume he'll get invited quickly to watch the Arena Fights. Which is where he spots those he is supposed to rescue. Given that the Festival is going to begin soon (Tarquin seems to rush things, dead wife and celebrating Elans arrival) I doubt Durkon/Chancellor have much time to get things done/people freed. I think Durkon has "until now to the afternoon" until the games begin, the time probably won't suffice - and as it was said before: Durkon has no reason to assume that he needs to hurry. He knows that Roy and Belkar are in for "entering the city without papers".
What would you expect for that offense? A week community service? Two? Surely not an "Immediate Death Penalty".

[Killer Angel]

What would you expect for that offense? A week community service? Two? Surely not an "Immediate Death Penalty".

To be fair, it's not "immediate"! :smalltongue:

[Ancalagon]

To be fair, it's not "immediate"! :smalltongue:

Before I sent the last post, I looked at the "immediate" and simply KNEW someone would point that out.

To get sentenced before lunch and being dead in the late afternoon is "immediate" enough, me thinks. ;)

[LuPuWei]

He probably won't have time for that. I assume he'll get invited quickly to watch the Arena Fights. Which is where he spots those he is supposed to rescue. Given that the Festival is going to begin soon (Tarquin seems to rush things, dead wife and celebrating Elans arrival) I doubt Durkon/Chancellor have much time to get things done/people freed. I think Durkon has "until now to the afternoon" until the games begin, the time probably won't suffice - and as it was said before: Durkon has no reason to assume that he needs to hurry. He knows that Roy and Belkar are in for "entering the city without papers".
What would you expect for that offense? A week community service? Two? Surely not an "Immediate Death Penalty".

And this works well for the story- we'll get to see 'OotS the Gladiators' even though, technically, Durkon is looking for a way to free them. And yeah, I agree that he has no reason to assume he needs to hurry.

It'll be interesting to see whether the M-dog is E or N...

[geekwraith]

On the Origins of PCs:

Yes, all dwarves in Durkon's homeland treat trees as a horrible enemy to be fought.

It was also recently referred to in the context of paper cuts. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html)

[sihnfahl]

It'll be interesting to see whether the M-dog is E or N...
His spell aura is black.

[sol-decentguy]

This was a great strip giant :)
It's kind of cool to see how the world of OOTS is explained. I have come to view :durkon: as an environment based character since most of his personality is set but his growth comes from the situations he gets caught up in. This strip really shows how he can cut up like the rest of the group while still maintaining his just cleric nature.
It's also good to know Thor goes to bat for his dwarfs.

[Killer Angel]

Before I sent the last post, I looked at the "immediate" and simply KNEW someone would point that out.

To get sentenced before lunch and being dead in the late afternoon is "immediate" enough, me thinks. ;)

Of course. I was advocating in Lawful Evil terms. :smallwink:

[Blaznak]

Its interesting to see these religions open to interpretation as they are. Kind of fun :)

[Querzis]

On the contrary, I think Redcloak's betrayal is inevitable. We've seen too many hints towards it (SoD itself contains one involving MitD, if you recall) and eventually, Redcloak's going to say enough is enough. I actually think that Tsukiko being a Mystic Theurge is a bit of fridge brilliance now; either Xykon or Redcloak could betray the other and still accomplish their end goal if they keep Tsukiko's allegiance.

You really think one day Redcloak will think that enough is enough????

He wasnt even ready to betray Xykon after he forced an entire goblin village into slavery and killed most of his remaining family. He was ready to kill his freaking little brother rather then to betray Xykon! If Redcloak wasnt ready to betray Xykon back then, if he didnt thought that enouch was enough right there then he never will! Redcloak wont ever directly betray Xykon. That being said, when Xykon betray Redcloak (which should happen soon enough) then of course I expect Redcloak to fight back...and lose. A spineless coward like Redcloak wont ever stand any chance against Xykon.

[Barlen]

You really think one day Redcloak will think that enough is enough????

He wasnt even ready to betray Xykon after he forced an entire goblin village into slavery and killed most of his remaining family. He was ready to kill his freaking little brother rather then to betray Xykon! If Redcloak wasnt ready to betray Xykon back then, if he didnt thought that enouch was enough right there then he never will! Redcloak wont ever directly betray Xykon. That being said, when Xykon betray Redcloak (which should happen soon enough) then of course I expect Redcloak to fight back...and lose. A spineless coward like Redcloak wont ever stand any chance against Xykon.

Actually I think that part of what keeps him following Xykon at this point is the probability that the ritual will lead to both their deaths. This could be seen as Redcloaks ultimate betrayal. When the scheme is complete they both get destroyed by it. In the mean time he lets Xykon believe that it will let him conquer the whole world, but he has been lying to Xykon since the beginning (See SoD). Redcloak just keeps saying to himself "Dont worry it will all be worth it in the end"

Now Xykon is starting to suspect something. He turned his part of the ritual over to Tsukiko to decipher, and he went off to the oracle (who wasn't home) to get more information.

[Kish]

I can flat out promise you that whatever keeps Redcloak following Xykon, it's not a common misconception from Start of Darkness.

(There is no indication the ritual kills the casters.)

[hamishspence]

that pic of the Snarl killing a mortal Xykon, & Redcloak- is more a "What might happen" pic-

given that Redcloak suggested that after they win, Xykon can get "A cushy retirement in the new goblinoid nation" it's probably more likely that both are expected to survive the ritual.

[Gift Jeraff]

My personal idea regarding Malack's alignment: He was Neutral back when he was an adventurer, but then something happened that turned him Evil.

Crazy, wild, stupid theory:
Tarquin and Malack adventured with Serini, since she "wasn't really the type for retiring" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), hence explaining how Tarquin knows of Girard. However, Tarquin sold Serini out to Xykon at one point, hence explaining how he got the diary. Malack was also somehow in on it and felt he might as well continue down the path of Evil. They continued adventuring a bit before eventually splitting up (hence Malack saying "four or five" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html)).

Other possible candidates for Malack and Tarquin's old adventuring party: Elan's mother (for obvious reasons), Julio Scoundrel (no real reason other than that he seems to be about as old as Tarquin), O-Chul (1. It'd be funny to imagine him as the naive new guy, 2. It would explain why he multi-classed to Paladin: He learned of the Gates and decided to defend the one in his hometown). I sort of stole parts of this idea from someone in an earlier discussion thread. :smalltongue:

[xyzchyx]

That's the problem right there. Xykon's stock in trade tactic for dealing with high level annoyances is Soul Bind. No resurrection possible.I think it's fairly safe to say that the Oracle will not let that happen... being able to infallibly forsee the future, he could take precautions against that eventuality well in advance... for example, having an object on his person that makes his will save high enough that there is no possibility that Xykon could put his soul into a gem.

[JoseB]

I think it's fairly safe to say that the Oracle will not let that happen... being able to infallibly forsee the future, he could take precautions against that eventuality well in advance... for example, having an object on his person that makes his will save high enough that there is no possibility that Xykon could put his soul into a gem.

Or, more easily, making sure that he is not home when Xykon comes calling... :smallwink:

[factotum]

Or, more easily, making sure that he is not home when Xykon comes calling... :smallwink:

I agree. Of course, it's possible the Oracle has randomly headed off somewhere to earn enough XP to regain his lost Expert level, but I think it's more likely he knew the scary lich was coming and chose to be somewhere else!

[Garwain]

They don't have coffee tables in the EoB?

[snafu]

(Really, it's not just a habit of modern people. Most scholars I've encountered believe those evil pre-Olympian Titans were the gods of the people who lived in Greece before the Hellenes arrived.)

Interesting. Hadn't heard that one, but it makes sense. You get the same kind of thing in Irish mythology, where there's a succession of different sets of... well, gods or heroes, the distinction's not clear-cut. And there's speculation that each one corresponds to a different past culture. The new culture can't accept the old culture's gods, so it turns them into heroes or elves or saints or devils depending on how they fit into the mythology.

Happens everywhere, I suppose, and it's probably always the death god who gets the worst retcon.

You'll see the same sort of thing with the Ugaritic pantheon, the gods of various cultures ancestral to the Phoenicians. I've no idea what these deities were like back in the Bronze Age when they were worshipped, but nowadays the very sound of their names is redolent of Lovecraftian horrors.

[Nilan8888]

The only time the Romans tried to stamp out the religion of a conquered people was when they conquered the Celts, with the whole druidic human sacrifice thing. That wasn't because they had different gods to the Romans, but because there were irreconcilable alignment differences.

Actually there was another, very understandable historical/political reason for that.

I won't get into it here, though.

[deimos3428]

Pretty sure that "goddes" is not a typo. It's a pun in reference to "Hel".

[kusje]

Or, more easily, making sure that he is not home when Xykon comes calling... :smallwink:

I'm not too sure I agree with both of you. If it were that simple, why didn't he take similar precautions when Belkar killed him? The fact that he "allowed" Belkar to kill him suggests some sort of restrictions on the Oracle's power that we do not know about.

[sihnfahl]

If it were that simple, why didn't he take similar precautions when Belkar killed him?
It set things up to get Belkar's MoJ off, tone down his behaviour (see: fake character development), keep the Order from finally snapping and dropping him before his part in stopping Xykon played out...

[Querzis]

I'm not too sure I agree with both of you. If it were that simple, why didn't he take similar precautions when Belkar killed him? The fact that he "allowed" Belkar to kill him suggests some sort of restrictions on the Oracle's power that we do not know about.

He didnt allow Belkar to kill him, he predicted Belkar would kill him. Thats the whole point, the Oracle has to say the truth when someone ask him a question, even if the question involve killing him or, in Xykon case, destroying the universe. Reread the strip where Belkar kill him, he does try to get around his own prediction but it doesnt work, hes killed anyway and it definitly seems thats what he expected to happen. Thats why he dodged Xykon, because once he predict something, there is no going back. Thats how Oracles are supposed to work, its not because you can see the future that you can change it but you can just avoid predicting the future.

[snafu]

In one of the pantheons I made I gave the god of death the Repose, Darkness, Liberation domains, because the Death domain dealt more with Undeath, which he was against.

I gave an Evil god of greed the domain of Death instead, as well as Trickery and Madness.

I seem to remember there being a CRPG - an NWN module I think? - where one of the NPCs was a cleric of a death god. He had a massive grudge against undead and all forms of necromancy, which he saw as blasphemous.

[jidasfire]

There's no definite evidence that Malack is evil. So far, we've seen him be hostile towards someone he thought was Nale (and really, who could blame anyone for hating Nale?) and then apologizing afterward. Now yes, he does serve in a pretty high capacity in a Lawful Evil society, which does count as strong circumstantial evidence, but it's possible for a LN person to thrive in a LE society if they are less into the actual oppression aspect and more into the rules and order side of things. He really could fit either way as of now.

[Omergideon]

Hmm, my opinion on this strip.

Well, it is not one of the best but it is certainly a decent strip. I could do a lengthy rambling critique but I think I'll keep it short.

This was one of those strips that happens, gives background information, maybe drops a hint or two but overall is there to set up a situation for later. An exposition strip if you will. Don't get me wrong there is definately humour and certainly all the little touches we come to expect from the Giant (for instance we glimpse the statue in a previous strip and the details remain consistent, or the little joke with Durkon and the hip flask) but it is there to provide context for what happens next.

[SmaugTheYounger]

He didnt allow Belkar to kill him, he predicted Belkar would kill him. Thats the whole point, the Oracle has to say the truth when someone ask him a question, even if the question involve killing him or, in Xykon case, destroying the universe. Reread the strip where Belkar kill him, he does try to get around his own prediction but it doesnt work, hes killed anyway and it definitly seems thats what he expected to happen. Thats why he dodged Xykon, because once he predict something, there is no going back. Thats how Oracles are supposed to work, its not because you can see the future that you can change it but you can just avoid predicting the future.

I think you have a point there: The oracle's predictions always come true, and his predictions are bound to the question asked. No wonder he is trying to stay as opaque as possible.

But he clearly sees more than he says, he is conscious of his predictions consequences, and he can take certain precautions: Ordering his own raise dead, aquire certain magic items to deal with unwanted customers, or simply staying away from someone as scary as Xykon. So he can change the future in some sort. It's just that the future looks like a giant chessboard, with him a minor player. Interesting.

[The MunchKING]

I can flat out promise you that whatever keeps Redcloak following Xykon, it's not a common misconception from Start of Darkness.

(There is no indication the ritual kills the casters.)

Not until recloak gives Xykon a good strong push into the rift, anyway. :smalltongue:

[factotum]

But he clearly sees more than he says, he is conscious of his predictions consequences, and he can take certain precautions: Ordering his own raise dead, aquire certain magic items to deal with unwanted customers, or simply staying away from someone as scary as Xykon. So he can change the future in some sort.

Getting yourself resurrected after being killed isn't changing the fact you got killed in the first place, which was what he predicted, so I don't really consider that to be "changing the future". If he'd predicted that he would see Xykon then I expect he wouldn't have been able to change that either; he predicted that Xykon would come to his tower and he chose to be out, though, which isn't changing it.

[kusje]

He didnt allow Belkar to kill him, he predicted Belkar would kill him. Thats the whole point, the Oracle has to say the truth when someone ask him a question, even if the question involve killing him or, in Xykon case, destroying the universe. Reread the strip where Belkar kill him, he does try to get around his own prediction but it doesnt work, hes killed anyway and it definitly seems thats what he expected to happen. Thats why he dodged Xykon, because once he predict something, there is no going back. Thats how Oracles are supposed to work, its not because you can see the future that you can change it but you can just avoid predicting the future.

Eh, I fully understand this. I was responding to someone else who stated:


I think it's fairly safe to say that the Oracle will not let that happen... being able to infallibly forsee the future, he could take precautions against that eventuality well in advance... for example, having an object on his person that makes his will save high enough that there is no possibility that Xykon could put his soul into a gem.

As you said, if he can foresee the future, he will not be able to take the necessary precautions because any precautions he takes are doomed to fail.

[SmaugTheYounger]

But it seems that only his predictions are set, and that he sees a bit more than he predicts. He also answers to conditional questions (Roy does one).

How he does the predictions for himself is unclear. But it looks like he can act on the consequences of his predictions, like order raise dead etc.

Purely a guess, but I think a hypothetical self-questioning could go like this:
"If I grant Xykon a question, will he soulbind me?" Answer: "Yes!"
Which makes him go out for lunch, thus avoiding meeting Xykon and changing his future into not getting soulbound to Xykon. His prediction would still be true, at least not falsified.

Alternatively, he also could ask himself only: "Will Xykon visit the valley?"
Answer: "Yes!"
Solution: "This guy is frickin' scary, I will go out for lunch and avoid meeting him."

So the prediction is set, but after that, all is open. He can't change the fact of his death or Xykons visit, but it looks like he can act on the consequences of it. By choosing on set of reactions he alters his own future. He might have even seen the possibility of getting soulbound.

In the end, it depends on the Giants specific universe. Is it one where the whole future is set in stone by absolute fate, or one where the future is in some sort of flux, where free will is able to act? As far as I see it, only the oracles predictions seem to be really fixed.

Re-read 318-332 and 566-572 several times. The past is set in stone, or at least on paper, but also pretty murky. :smalltongue:

[Clertar]

Should have called the strip "Let us compare mythologies" :smallfrown:

[kerberos]

There's no definite evidence that Malack is evil. So far, we've seen him be hostile towards someone he thought was Nale (and really, who could blame anyone for hating Nale?) and then apologizing afterward. Now yes, he does serve in a pretty high capacity in a Lawful Evil society, which does count as strong circumstantial evidence, but it's possible for a LN person to thrive in a LE society if they are less into the actual oppression aspect and more into the rules and order side of things. He really could fit either way as of now.

His magic is black. Also he considers the possibility that Elan isn't Nale but could help them find Nale, but then when Elan tells that Nale is dead decides to feed Elan to the dragon according to the logic that he's either Nale or useless. That makes him Evil, no matter how much he apologizes (he doesn't apologize very much incidentally).

[Nilan8888]

Hmm, my opinion on this strip.

You're still doing these?

You should probably go back and touch on the highlights since you stopped. Probably "Generally Relative" is the most important one since I notced you hadn't been doing them any more.

[Omergideon]

You're still doing these?
.

My computer died a while back and so I couldn't. I'll probably do a retrospective on the most recent arc sometime soon, and proper reviews once more. I was thinking of trying a more in depth review of the main story arcs at some point, but it would mean rereading the comics again several times, in depth and I can't face that again:smallwink:.

Also...wow. Someone noticed. I'm shocked.

[xyzchyx]

As you said, if he can foresee the future, he will not be able to take the necessary precautions because any precautions he takes are doomed to fail.Why would they be doomed to fail? The Oracle has said nothing about Xykon being certain to destroy him, so that aspect of the future is unknown to us (it may be to the Oracle, however.... which, if it has an unpleasant final end for the Oracle, would justify him contriving to be away whenever Xykon is around). Indeed, I suspect that the only way the Oracle would even allow himself to be in the situation that would result in his own (resurrectable) death is if he could arrange for something particularly nasty to happen to Xykon as a result (as he did for Belkar). I do not think the Oracle would ever allow himself to be in a position of not being able to be brought back, however.

[Darcy]

It depends on whether or not the whole "you can't fight fate" thing works in OotS-land or not. Since the Oracle's predictions seem to be flawless, I don't think he can use his knowledge of what's going to happen to change it- the future he sees reflects any precautions he might take against it.

[jidasfire]

His magic is black. Also he considers the possibility that Elan isn't Nale but could help them find Nale, but then when Elan tells that Nale is dead decides to feed Elan to the dragon according to the logic that he's either Nale or useless. That makes him Evil, no matter how much he apologizes (he doesn't apologize very much incidentally).

As I said, I'm not saying he's not evil, just that he might not be. His magic being black isn't quite enough, since black is a color associated with death, and Malack points out that death isn't necessarily evil, which it isn't.

As for your other points, well, again, strong circumstantial evidence. But as Tarquin pointed out, Nale did some very nasty things to Malack, which may have affected his judgment, and it's certainly not beyond Nale to enact some crazy plan where he pretends to be his own twin brother (in fact, he has done so), so I could forgive Malack for at least being suspicious in that regard.

Which I think leaves us where we started, could go either way.

[WreckedElf]

Also...wow. Someone noticed. I'm shocked.

I had noticed the absence of your reviews aswell, which I found dissapointing given the intrigue of some of the recent events.

[Wiffleboy]

I also find it kind of odd that Malack worships human gods. It's only a bit more odd than Durkon doing the same...

Malack, yes but not so much for Durkon. There is in the Norse mythology dwarves who are described much like the ones in the D & D world so it would seem a little more appropriate for Durkon to worship Thor.

[hamishspence]

Especially given that in Deities & Demigods, Thor is actually described as being revered by:

"fighters, rangers and barbarians, farmers and other commoners, dwarves, half-orcs"

[Gift Jeraff]

I also find it kind of odd that Malack worships human gods. It's only a bit more odd than Durkon doing the same...

Missed this. There are no "human gods" in OOTS. It's implied that the only gods besides the Western/Northern/Southern pantheons are the Elven gods and the Dark One, so dwarves, being from the Northern Continent, tend to worship the Northern gods.

[Lecan]

Should have called the strip "Let us compare mythologies" :smallfrown:

No, he really should not have.

[Morithias]

I believe in the panel where the gods are arguing Thor is right. As it says in the monster manual that mummy rot is not actually a disease technically, but rather a powerful curse.

Nice job again :)

[kerberos]

As I said, I'm not saying he's not evil, just that he might not be. His magic being black isn't quite enough, since black is a color associated with death, and Malack points out that death isn't necessarily evil, which it isn't.

As for your other points, well, again, strong circumstantial evidence. But as Tarquin pointed out, Nale did some very nasty things to Malack, which may have affected his judgment, and it's certainly not beyond Nale to enact some crazy plan where he pretends to be his own twin brother (in fact, he has done so), so I could forgive Malack for at least being suspicious in that regard.

Which I think leaves us where we started, could go either way.

I understood that you were only suggesting he might be evil. I disagree however that that's possible. The problem with feeding Elan to the dragon isn't that he didn't believe that Elan was in fact Elan, rather than Nale. The problem was that he quite clearly considered that Elan might be telling the truth, but decided to feed him to the dragon anyway because he was either

A) Lying thus making him Nale which would mean feeding him to the dragon would result in a dead Nale.

B) Telling the truth in which case Nale was already dead and Elan of no use to Malak.

There's just no way a neutral character decides to feed a possibly innocent person to a dragon based on a calculation like that. Check three last panels of 720 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html), it's crystal clear that Malak does exactly that calculation. Bear in mind that it's easilly within the capacity of a High ranking cleric like Malak to test the truth of Elans story, or even just to ask his close friend whether the story rings a bell.