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afroakuma
2010-07-23, 09:38 PM
D&D has always had two main branches of dragonkind - metallic and chromatic, representing good and evil respectively. For much of its history there has been a center band, the gem dragons, who represent neutrality.

One of the last published issues of Dragon updated the ferrous dragons to 3.5, representing lawful alignments.

But what about chaos?

There is currently (to 3.5) no spectrum of chaotic dragons, and I'm trying to figure out what a suitable unifying theme for them would be. So far I have a pool consisting of:

• Noble gases
• Halogens
• Various gases (regardless of classification)
• Textiles (silk, cotton etc.)
• Booze (Ale, Wine, Vodka :smalltongue:)
• Fruit
• Flavors
• Flowers
• Wood

None of those ideas really seems right, and I'd prefer to avoid further belaboring of the periodic table if at all possible... any thoughts?

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-23, 09:48 PM
Isn't there a group known as the Catastrophic Dragons? Perhaps they were 4th ed only, I couldn't say.

If they are, no matter. Simple to explain, they are essentially disaster and elemental themed, for example the hilariously heavy metal looking Earthquake Dragon.
Some art on the concept here; http://artorder.blogspot.com/2009/07/earthquake-dragon.html

Though I generally prefer the image in mm3. So it goes.

Ties in with the whole 4e Elemental Chaos thing, so I could see it being a fair source for 3.5 dragon homebrew?

afroakuma
2010-07-23, 09:53 PM
Yeah, not touching 4E. :smalltongue:

Also, the spectrum would span all three chaotic alignments, not just evil, so "catastrophic" as a definer is sort of... not fit.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-07-23, 09:57 PM
I second the idea of disaster dragons, it just seems fitting for an "incarnation" of chaos.


Earthquake
Typhoon
Huricane
Drought
avalanche


Just tossing some random ideas

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-23, 10:03 PM
Note; Catastrophic Dragon types also included Blizzard and Volcanic, just to round out the above list of suggestions.

The concepts don't even really have to be tied to Evil. That comes down to the specifics of their fluff, really. Some of the linked Earthquake-Dragon Concepts in particular had quite a strong force-of-nature thing going, especially.

Elfin
2010-07-23, 10:20 PM
Catastrophic dragons are a pretty good idea, I think.

arguskos
2010-07-23, 10:24 PM
I'll toss a vote at a group of "nature's whim" dragons, as the rest of the folks above seem to be saying.

I'll also throw out the alternate idea that perhaps these dragons each can change a quality about themselves as they wish, a sort of group of loosely affiliated "shifting" dragons, if you will. One breed might be able to change their breath weapon, another their size, another their form of movement (wings become fins, legs become digging claws, etc), stuff like that. Seems chaotic-ish.

Chaos isn't a great unifying mechanic, honestly.

afroakuma
2010-07-23, 11:12 PM
Chaos isn't a great unifying mechanic, honestly.

Not looking to use it as a unifying mechanic.

I'm looking for a theme for the group of five chaotic dragons who are the diametric opposite of the ferrous dragons.

senrath
2010-07-23, 11:15 PM
While not exactly what you're looking for, some of the Planar dragons are chaotic. Including the aptly named Chaos dragon.

afroakuma
2010-07-23, 11:23 PM
Aware, yes.

But again, definitely not what I'm looking for.

Refresher:


{table=head]Alignment|Race|Members
Neutral|Gem|Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, Topaz
Good|Metallic|Brass, Bronze, Copper, Gold, Silver
Lawful|Ferrous|Chromium, Cobalt, Iron, Nickel, Tungsten
Evil|Chromatic|Black, Blue, Green, Red, White
Chaotic|???|[/table]

I need to just decide on an overarching theme by which to name the five chaotic dragons. Are they halogen dragons? Gas dragons? Sense dragons? Bloom dragons?

The Glyphstone
2010-07-23, 11:46 PM
I'd go with gas dragons personally, except that all the names would sound too similar and players might get confused.

"Okay...we're fighting a Bromine Dragon...or is is a Chlorine Dragon? Bob, what's the difference between a Bromine Dragon, Chlorine Dragon, and Flourine Dragon?"

Howbout emotions? Emotions can be plenty chaotic.
Rage Dragon, Sorrow Dragon, Terror Dragon...

afroakuma
2010-07-23, 11:51 PM
I'd go with gas dragons personally, except that all the names would sound too similar and players might get confused.

"Okay...we're fighting a Bromine Dragon...or is is a Chlorine Dragon? Bob, what's the difference between a Bromine Dragon, Chlorine Dragon, and Flourine Dragon?"

Well, I was considering stirring it up a bit. So, for instance: helium, oxygen, neon, fluorine.

That said, there are already eight dragons out of a possible 25 drawn from the periodic table (not counting mercury dragons, which exist but are not currently in the set of 25) which is virtually a third of them. Pulling another five from there will bring that up to over half, an idea I'm not enamored with.

arguskos
2010-07-23, 11:53 PM
There's no liquid dragons, so perhaps calling them the Fluid Dragons (or some such variation on the world Fluid) would work?

My other thought was the Aero Dragons, but then what five types of "air" or gas does one pick?

Eurus
2010-07-23, 11:55 PM
Well, all the existing types are based on visual qualities. Either material or color. So are you thinking to follow that line of thinking, or to mix it up with something less strictly visual (like sound, or something. Fear the Tenor Dragon. :smallbiggrin:)?

Serpentine
2010-07-23, 11:56 PM
{table=head]Alignment|Race|Members
Neutral|Gem|Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, Topaz
Good|Metallic|Brass, Bronze, Copper, Gold, Silver
Lawful|Ferrous|Chromium, Cobalt, Iron, Nickel, Tungsten
Evil|Chromatic|Black, Blue, Green, Red, White
Chaotic|???|[/table]I think you need to stick with the mineral theme, although the Evil bit kinda wrecks it. Alas, it's been a long time since I studied the elements.
Refreshing on minerals, brb.

edit: Right, I've got an idea. What about the more reactive metals? I'm starting with Sodium, which is a member of the alkali metals, which also includes Lithium, Potassium, rubidium, caesium, and francium. I'd consider Mercury, but I have a feeling I've already seen one of those. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_series)'s a list of the classes of elements.

afroakuma
2010-07-23, 11:59 PM
I did consider fluids, in which case I'd probably steal the mercury dragon.

I also considered chords, but they're so... well, a Diminished Dragon doesn't sound particularly intimidating. :smalltongue:

arguskos
2010-07-24, 12:02 AM
I did consider fluids, in which case I'd probably steal the mercury dragon.

I also considered chords, but they're so... well, a Diminished Dragon doesn't sound particularly intimidating. :smalltongue:
On the topic of vocal tones, you could do the following: Bass, Baritone, Tenor, Soprano, Alto. That'd be workable.

Zaq
2010-07-24, 12:07 AM
Maybe a body part theme? Eye Dragon, Tooth Dragon (probably already exists), etc.? Not especially chaotic, but then, colors aren't especially evil.

How about a landform theme? Cliff Dragon, Bay Dragon, Bayou Dragon, etc.

Or just look at the Hyren and pick out five that have something in common, then downgrade them to dragons.

Serpentine
2010-07-24, 12:08 AM
Added more stuff above.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-07-24, 12:16 AM
I second the Emotion vote. Love Hate Sadness Joy Fear etc would make good dragons.

I second the Vote for Disaters: Hurricane, Tsunami, Earthquake, Explosion, Avalanche. . . also make pretty awsome dragons. . . I means can you imagine an explosion dragons breath weapon. . .

i Also propose these idea's for the Gas Dragon: Helium, Hydrogen, Neon, Flourine, Krypton, Argon, Xenon. . . particularly fond of the Krypton Dragon. . . take that superman. . . your not the only survivor after all are you!

pingcode20
2010-07-24, 12:17 AM
On the topic of vocal tones, you could do the following: Bass, Baritone, Tenor, Soprano, Alto. That'd be workable.

Unlike other dragons, Tonal Dragons frequently organise themselves into interspecies groups of four, known as 'Barbershops' for reasons lost to time. These typically comprise a Bass, a Baritone, a Tenor, and either an Alto or Soprano dragon.

A group of Tonal Dragons is known as a capella of dragons. :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2010-07-24, 12:19 AM
Unlike other dragons, Tonal Dragons frequently organise themselves into interspecies groups of four, known as 'Barbershops' for reasons lost to time. These typically comprise a Bass, a Baritone, and a Tenor dragon backing up a dominant fourth dragon.

A group of Tonal Dragons is known as a capella of dragons. :D
Awwww, that was PAINFUL. :smallsigh:

But glorious. :smallbiggrin:

afro, we have a winner?

Serpentine
2010-07-24, 12:29 AM
If we're saying the fact that the Evil Class of dragons are colours means we can deviate from the element theme, I'd nominate the use of either environment/nature or body parts (or something like that but better), because we've already got some to start with (Deep, Sand and Shadow, and Fang and Song, respectively).

Andion Isurand
2010-07-24, 12:59 AM
There are a few others that belong to these groups that didn't often get named... you guys could turn this into a dragon index before long...


{table=head]Alignment|Race|Members
Neutral|Gem|Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, Topaz
Good|Metallic|Brass, Bronze, Copper, Gold, Silver
Lawful|Ferrous|Chromium, Cobalt, Iron, Nickel, Tungsten
Evil|Chromatic|Black, Blue, Green, Red, White
Chaotic|???|[/table]

{table=head]Alignment|Race|Members
Neutral|Gem|Obsidian
Good|Metallic|Mercury
Lawful|Ferrous|Steel
Evil|Chromatic|Brown, Yellow, Orange, Purple
Chaotic|???|[/table]

They probably have more out there for 3.X and I know they did in previous editions.

Serpentine
2010-07-24, 01:03 AM
Did you know that the Pearl or Moon Dragon was the Ruler of All Chaotic Dragons in, I think, second edition?

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-24, 01:11 AM
I have always wanted to do something like this. I wan't aware there was ferious dragons though. There really is a theam for minerals and all the minerals are liked by type. precious, hard, gem,

I am thinking you need reactive metals. Tin and zinc fill the roll of bronze and brass, the two lesser dragons that people confuse. Then you have sodium as a copper level dragon and lithium to be silver sized, fast and powerful, but not so powerful as the dreaded cesium dragon. That is the big gold dragon sized monstrosity.

All these dragons are known for short tempers and unpredictable behavior. They are uncomon and due to thier diverse characteristics and randomness of apearence from dragon to dragon even among a single type they are commonly mistaken for other dragons.

Andion Isurand
2010-07-24, 01:22 AM
Volcanic and Pyroclastic (which already exists) are too similar.

Typhoon and Hurricane sound a little too alike as well, unless you change Typhoon to Tsunami.

Serpentine
2010-07-24, 01:24 AM
Hmmmmm.
*is considering statting out some of these guys anyway*

Harperfan7
2010-07-24, 01:44 AM
Well, you could just make it so that a percentage of all non-chaotic dragons, regarldess of type, come out chaotic.

Let's say its 25%.

25% of all gold, blue, iron, amethyst, whatever dragons are chaotic instead of what they would normally be (so a gold would be CG, blue CE, amethyst CN, etc.).

Morph Bark
2010-07-24, 04:10 AM
Did you know that the Pearl or Moon Dragon was the Ruler of All Chaotic Dragons in, I think, second edition?

Then I suppose you could name Chaotic Dragons after animal-produced valuables, or other natural ones.

Naia
2010-07-24, 04:26 AM
Whar about basing them on the elements (earth, wind/air, fire, water)? If you need five, then use the old chinese (I think) system, which includes wood. And maybe stone and ice.

Serpentine
2010-07-24, 04:29 AM
M-Bark: But what other ones are there? Lets see...
Pearl
Amber
Spermacetti or ambergrist(sp?)? Blegh :smallyuk:

Hrm...

edit: Wikipedia to the rescue! Other possibilities: Coral and Abalone.
edit: Ammolite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammolite) looks pretty call, and already looks like scales.
edit again: Ivory and tortoiseshell.

Edit the fourth: Y'know, this could work. Pearl, Amber, Coral, Ammolite, Ivory, Abalone, Jet and/or Tortoiseshell Dragons. How many do we need, again?

Bogardan_Mage
2010-07-24, 05:00 AM
Ok, so if the good dragons are metalic and the lawful dragons are ferrous, perhaps the chaotic dragons should be similarly connected to the evil dragons? Not chromatic, but derived from colour or something like colour. Pattern dragons (ok, I just want to see a Plaid Dragon. And a Polkadot Dragon. Very chaotic)?

Serpentine
2010-07-24, 05:32 AM
I hate that Chaos is associated with Evil (even if, historically, it is...), but I do kinda like those ideas. Hell, I've already drawn a tartan one...

Siegel
2010-07-24, 05:43 AM
Amber Dragon, Pearl Dragon, Coral Dragon etc.

sounds really cool to me

What about Salt Dragon ?

Serpentine
2010-07-24, 06:09 AM
Why salt? Or more specifically, why salt in a Chaos Dragon-race? A salt dragon would be cool, regardless... I'd probably make it Neutral Good, though, and have it reflect the association of salt with purity and protection.

Bogardan_Mage
2010-07-24, 06:25 AM
I hate that Chaos is associated with Evil (even if, historically, it is...), but I do kinda like those ideas. Hell, I've already drawn a tartan one...
I'm not thrilled about it either, but Law already is associated with Good in the existing framework and the thread does kind of stem from the ferrous dragons...

Morph Bark
2010-07-24, 10:41 AM
I'm not thrilled about it either, but Law already is associated with Good in the existing framework and the thread does kind of stem from the ferrous dragons...

Pretty much all the dragons besides the planar ones and a few others (Shadow, Fang, Song, Deep) have a colour for their name though. Metallic dragons may have something with metal, but ultimately they are also of metallic colours, and "sapphire", "emerald", etcetera, that are used for Gem dragons are also often used to describe specific colours.

Pearl, Amber, Coral, Ivory and Jet seems like a good arrangement to me. Many of these also stem from wild animals or the sea, which oftentimes are used to symbolize chaos.

Serpentine
2010-07-24, 11:47 AM
I was gonna mention that, too. The dragon-ocean-chaos connection is gonna be a pretty big part of my honours...

true_shinken
2010-07-24, 12:52 PM
Isn't there a chaos dragon?

Whar about basing them on the elements (earth, wind/air, fire, water)? If you need five, then use the old chinese (I think) system, which includes wood. And maybe stone and ice.
I believe the five chinese elements (wu xing) are fire, wood, gold/metal (depends on translation, I think), water and earth.
Not to be confused with japanese gogyō (五行): fire, earth, water, wind and void/heaven.

SilverClawShift
2010-07-24, 04:23 PM
Edit the fourth: Y'know, this could work. Pearl, Amber, Coral, Ammolite, Ivory, Abalone, Jet and/or Tortoiseshell Dragons. How many do we need, again?

That's effing brilliant.

Really, these dragons deserve the full Draconomicon treatment...

afroakuma
2010-07-24, 05:39 PM
Hmm... I'm almost persuaded... the set I'd likely use would be Amber, Coral, Ivory, Jet and Nacre, given that D&D already has a pearl dragon.

What would you dub this "set," though? Can't call them organic dragons - most dragons are organic. :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2010-07-24, 05:43 PM
Jewel Dragons? It'd be a thematic reflection of "Gem Dragons".

DracoDei
2010-07-24, 05:56 PM
Noting that none of the basic chromatics nor metallics are neutral with respect to law/chaos. (In fact, that is part of the reason I thought Wing Dragons were worth updating to 3.X since they come out Neutral Good, but splat books almost certainly change this.).

afroakuma
2010-07-24, 07:07 PM
Hmm... another thought:

Optical dragons - adularescent, fluorescent, iridescent, opalescent, phosphorescent.

All have colors, but look like one or more different colors in different circumstances.

I could even do all luminescent dragons.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-24, 07:18 PM
Personally, I still like the idea of Emotion dragons - Fury, Sorrow, Terror, Cheer, ????

afroakuma
2010-07-24, 08:07 PM
Oh, I don't mind that idea for individual breeds of dragon, but for a core set, I'd like a visual indicator.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-07-24, 08:41 PM
i belive the natural stemmed theme is the best so far. . . and i can elaborate on this with a further example. . .

each of these valuables is formed from something long dead. Each also has apecific other things to which it could be associated for specific flavor of the dragon breed:

Amber(sap from long dead trees): this obviously covers your woodsy forest dwelling Chaotic dragon type. . . the Color of the dragon would be an obvious rich strong color that does not already exist in the dragon breed types, it even lends to the idea of a pretty cool breath weapon an entangling sticky spray that hardens if you dont escape within a certain number of rounds. . . sounds awsome to me

Ivory(long dead animals): this would be your wild creature, imagine if a white and a fang dragon had a baby. . . it would probably look like this, spikey and boney and dangerously ferral. . . probably does extra damage like a fang dragon and lives in arrid plains or deserts.

Obsidian(long dead volcanos): every dragon set needs a big bad, somone scary that breaths somthing resembling fire. . . a dragon who thrives in dead volcanos and is named for volcanic glass would probably work great for this. most likely a shiney black-grey in color with shorter wings and bigger claws. . .

Coral(long dead sea creature): Aquatic choas, nothing like a spiney strange dragon from the deep to scare a few sailors off the water. a brightly colored dragon. while all dragons like treasure this would be your "red Dragon" with regards to this set, this would be the one that's just plain greedier than the rest.

Coal(long dead plant life): here's your earth paradigm.the digger who leaves deep under the ground and likes to burrow. he's probably also got some kind of earthquaking ability. . .i'm picturing big and black with ashy looking highlights. . .

Bogardan_Mage
2010-07-24, 08:56 PM
Pretty much all the dragons besides the planar ones and a few others (Shadow, Fang, Song, Deep) have a colour for their name though. Metallic dragons may have something with metal, but ultimately they are also of metallic colours, and "sapphire", "emerald", etcetera, that are used for Gem dragons are also often used to describe specific colours.
Except the Ferrous dragons aren't. They only make sense when compared to the Metallic dragons. And considering that the whole need for a group of chaotic dragons comes from their existence, I think said chaotic dragons should mirror them in some way. I suggest they, like the Chromatic dragons, have names that could not be anything other than a colour. This is based on the Ferrous dragons, any explanation that ignores them is totally missing my point.

Serpentine
2010-07-24, 11:03 PM
Hmm... I'm almost persuaded... the set I'd likely use would be Amber, Coral, Ivory, Jet and Nacre, given that D&D already has a pearl dragon.What's Nacre, and where's the pearl dragon? Pretty sure the one I mentioned was in a past edition - and, of course, it was the epitome of Chaos. There's always mother-of-pearl, too.

Hmm... another thought:

Optical dragons - adularescent, fluorescent, iridescent, opalescent, phosphorescent.

All have colors, but look like one or more different colors in different circumstances.

I could even do all luminescent dragons.I do kinda like that idea. But I like mine more :smalltongue:

i belive the natural stemmed theme is the best so far. . . and i can elaborate on this with a further example. . .

each of these valuables is formed from something long dead. Each also has apecific other things to which it could be associated for specific flavor of the dragon breed:

Amber(sap from long dead trees): this obviously covers your woodsy forest dwelling Chaotic dragon type. . . the Color of the dragon would be an obvious rich strong color that does not already exist in the dragon breed types, it even lends to the idea of a pretty cool breath weapon an entangling sticky spray that hardens if you dont escape within a certain number of rounds. . . sounds awsome to me

Ivory(long dead animals): this would be your wild creature, imagine if a white and a fang dragon had a baby. . . it would probably look like this, spikey and boney and dangerously ferral. . . probably does extra damage like a fang dragon and lives in arrid plains or deserts.

Obsidian(long dead volcanos): every dragon set needs a big bad, somone scary that breaths somthing resembling fire. . . a dragon who thrives in dead volcanos and is named for volcanic glass would probably work great for this. most likely a shiney black-grey in color with shorter wings and bigger claws. . .

Coral(long dead sea creature): Aquatic choas, nothing like a spiney strange dragon from the deep to scare a few sailors off the water. a brightly colored dragon. while all dragons like treasure this would be your "red Dragon" with regards to this set, this would be the one that's just plain greedier than the rest.

Coal(long dead plant life): here's your earth paradigm.the digger who leaves deep under the ground and likes to burrow. he's probably also got some kind of earthquaking ability. . .i'm picturing big and black with ashy looking highlights. . .Works for me :smallcool: Though I'm not so keen on the coal, even if it makes sense (bit close to jet or obsidian).

afroakuma
2010-07-24, 11:40 PM
What's Nacre, and where's the pearl dragon?

Nacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nacre) is mother-of-pearl. It's what gives that lovely iridescent quality to abalone, too.


Pretty sure the one I mentioned was in a past edition - and, of course, it was the epitome of Chaos.

I attempt to avoid stepping on the toes of those older editions where possible, since I do enjoy callbacks.


I do kinda like that idea. But I like mine more :smalltongue:

I rather like them both, though I do need to polish up the optical dragons... and that name kind of sucks. Granted, not so very keen on "jewel dragons" as a title either... nor "cabochon dragons," which would be more apt.


Works for me :smallcool: Though I'm not so keen on the coal, even if it makes sense (bit close to jet or obsidian).

IIRC, there is already an obsidian dragon lurking somewhere.

Captain Six
2010-07-24, 11:59 PM
The problem with the idea of emotion dragons is that they are then bound to that emotion leaving them the less chaotic out of all the dragons.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-07-25, 12:14 AM
ah, if obsidian is taken Scratch that, go for somthing else then in the same vein. . . Amber, Coral, Coal, Ivory, and. . . . ??? um. . . petrified wood? Fossil? Nacre is a good one but unusual and many wont recognize it. . . i like the sound of Opal, but its doesnt quite fit. . . I'd say Pearl but that aparently already exists.

. . . anybody got any ideas?

Rainbownaga
2010-07-25, 12:16 AM
Why not make pattern dragons?

Striped, swirl, spotted?

It allows you to have multiple colours which allow for random-element breath attacks and shows up the chaotic nature of the creatures.

Morph Bark
2010-07-25, 04:24 AM
i belive the natural stemmed theme is the best so far. . . and i can elaborate on this with a further example. . .

each of these valuables is formed from something long dead. Each also has apecific other things to which it could be associated for specific flavor of the dragon breed:

Amber(sap from long dead trees): this obviously covers your woodsy forest dwelling Chaotic dragon type. . . the Color of the dragon would be an obvious rich strong color that does not already exist in the dragon breed types, it even lends to the idea of a pretty cool breath weapon an entangling sticky spray that hardens if you dont escape within a certain number of rounds. . . sounds awsome to me

Ivory(long dead animals): this would be your wild creature, imagine if a white and a fang dragon had a baby. . . it would probably look like this, spikey and boney and dangerously ferral. . . probably does extra damage like a fang dragon and lives in arrid plains or deserts.

Obsidian(long dead volcanos): every dragon set needs a big bad, somone scary that breaths somthing resembling fire. . . a dragon who thrives in dead volcanos and is named for volcanic glass would probably work great for this. most likely a shiney black-grey in color with shorter wings and bigger claws. . .

Coral(long dead sea creature): Aquatic choas, nothing like a spiney strange dragon from the deep to scare a few sailors off the water. a brightly colored dragon. while all dragons like treasure this would be your "red Dragon" with regards to this set, this would be the one that's just plain greedier than the rest.

Coal(long dead plant life): here's your earth paradigm.the digger who leaves deep under the ground and likes to burrow. he's probably also got some kind of earthquaking ability. . .i'm picturing big and black with ashy looking highlights. . .

Since Obsidian is taken, Jet could take its place.

Taken from Wikipedia: "Jet is a geological material and is considered to be a minor gemstone. Jet is not considered a true mineral, but rather a mineraloid as it has an organic origin, being derived from decaying wood under extreme pressure."

I didn't know there was already a Pearl dragon in 3.5. Where can I find it?


Except the Ferrous dragons aren't. They only make sense when compared to the Metallic dragons. And considering that the whole need for a group of chaotic dragons comes from their existence, I think said chaotic dragons should mirror them in some way. I suggest they, like the Chromatic dragons, have names that could not be anything other than a colour. This is based on the Ferrous dragons, any explanation that ignores them is totally missing my point.

Perhaps. I don't know anything about the Ferrous dragons besides them being based on metals and being Lawful and that they are out there somewhere. Where can I find them?

Also, some metals other than precious metals are sometimes also used to describe a kind of colour. Really, considering there are tons of colours with many ways to describe them and dragons are colour-coded for your convenience, you could make tons of dragons just based on various colour descriptions.

Bogardan_Mage
2010-07-25, 05:18 AM
Perhaps. I don't know anything about the Ferrous dragons besides them being based on metals and being Lawful and that they are out there somewhere. Where can I find them?
Dragon #356, I understand, but the names are listed in this very thread. I, for one, have never heard Iron, Nickel or Tungsten being used as colours. I'll give you Cobalt. Chromium's kind of a grey area.

Morph Bark
2010-07-25, 06:14 AM
Dragon #356, I understand, but the names are listed in this very thread. I, for one, have never heard Iron, Nickel or Tungsten being used as colours. I'll give you Cobalt. Chromium's kind of a grey area.

Thanks. Gonna look it up.

And yeah, admittably most of the non-precious metals aren't used as often for colours and when they are it's like "iron gray" rather than just "iron". Cobalt I've heard use both as just "cobalt" and "cobalt blue".


This just reminds me how I once spent 15 minutes trying to convince a friend of mine cobalt is an actual chemical element rather than a mixture of 'em. :smallannoyed:

Mr.Bookworm
2010-07-25, 06:43 AM
This is waaaaaaaay out there, but if you wanted to do something related to Chromatics, you could base it off the non-visible sections of the electromagnetic spectrum. X-Ray, Ultraviolet, Infrared, Microwave, and Radio dragons.

That's probably a bit too catgirl-killy for D&D, though.

Or you could possibly rip off Munchkin and do Radioactive Dragons. Radium, Thorium, Uranium, Plutonium, Curium dragons.

Other than SCIENCE!, I like the Amber, Ivory, etc. dragons. It works, and it gives a nice unifying theme.

Siegel
2010-07-25, 06:55 AM
Fur Dragon ? Finaly a Dragon with a pelt :smalltongue:

Morph Bark
2010-07-25, 07:46 AM
Personally, dragons based off chemical elements other than the ones sometimes used to describe a colour sounds off to me. That stuff is more suitable for (obviously) Elementals.

afroakuma
2010-07-25, 08:23 AM
You know, I'm almost inclined to take the jewel dragons and make them neutrals along the other axis (ethically neutral, morally variable) as a complement to the gem dragons, then use the optical dragons as the chaotics.

I think I may be putting too much thought into this now, officially. :smalltongue:

Serpentine
2010-07-25, 10:26 AM
I still think Pearl is the best extra option. Just resurrect it for 3.5, and tweak the "king of chaotic dragons" or whatever it was to make it the equivalent of the Gold and Red dragons - the top of the heap, the best and toughest of the lot.

That last idea might be pretty decent, if there isn't already one of those.

Mr.Bookworm
2010-07-25, 10:35 AM
Fur Dragon ? Finaly a Dragon with a pelt :smalltongue:

No, those are the Funky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55828) dragons (Zebra, Tiger, Leopard, Dalmation, Polar Bear).

EDIT: The Square dragons, in case you were wondering, are Hextile, Deltile, Quadrille, Tetrille, and Rhombahexadeltille dragons.

afroakuma
2010-07-25, 10:52 AM
I still think Pearl is the best extra option. Just resurrect it for 3.5, and tweak the "king of chaotic dragons" or whatever it was to make it the equivalent of the Gold and Red dragons - the top of the heap, the best and toughest of the lot.

The Pearl, Diamond and Opal dragons were individual dragons from Mystaran canon (a setting devoted more to the axis of Law and Chaos, being from that era of D&D where "Lawful" meant PCs and "Chaotic" meant Kill Me For XP And Treasure).

Oddly, there was also a breed of pearl dragons among the dragons of neutrality (which also included jade, jacinth and moonstone).

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-07-25, 10:57 AM
I have 'dream' dragons for chaos. The 'Dragon Uncarnates'. Chaotic good daydreamers, chaotic evil nightmares, and chaotic neutral epiphanies.

Serpentine
2010-07-25, 11:06 AM
The Pearl, Diamond and Opal dragons were individual dragons from Mystaran canon (a setting devoted more to the axis of Law and Chaos, being from that era of D&D where "Lawful" meant PCs and "Chaotic" meant Kill Me For XP And Treasure).

Oddly, there was also a breed of pearl dragons among the dragons of neutrality (which also included jade, jacinth and moonstone).I still don't think there's any real reason we shouldn't just reuse the Pearl dragon.

Seracain
2010-07-25, 11:29 AM
Organizing dragons based on chaos into a category seems odd to me. I suggest calling them Chaos dragons, have the theme be no common theme. Take your pick of different suggestions, so no two chaos dragon types are the same.

So you might have a catastrophic dragon, an emotion dragon, an incandescent dragon, a liquid dragon, a jewel dragon and so on. Adds a chaotic theme, and snubs its thumb at the lawful use of organisational categories.

And if you were willing for the additional headache, you could have the dragons shift through the different possibilities of their type. So an emotion dragon, could affect terror one round, then sorrow the next. A catastrophic dragon could be a ground based earthquake creator that will shift overnight into a tornado creating menace.

It opens the door to a lot of possibilities. Actually, I think I might make some of these myself, they sound fun.

afroakuma
2010-07-25, 11:30 AM
I still don't think there's any real reason we shouldn't just reuse the Pearl dragon.

Oh, well, I just figured Nacre covers abalone as well as pearl, and if you're using Ivory then you already have a "white" dragon.

Myself, I won't overwrite it just because that's my thing, but you're free to do whatever.

Now, my own rough outline for the Jewel Dragons (Bead Dragons? Ornate Dragons?)

Amber
Golden-brown in color, amber dragons have long, narrow, heavy wings and barklike plates over some parts of their bodies. Amber dragons are associated with earth and electricity.

Coral
Bright orange or carmine pink, coral dragons have irregular antlers and are excellent swimmers. Coral dragons are associated with water.

Ivory
Large and brutal, ivory dragons are a mass of deadly points, all horns, tusks, claws and spurs.

Jet
Quick, stealthy and aerodynamic, jet dragons are a smooth black, ranging from glossy to dull. Jet dragons are associated with fire.

Nacre
Splendid to behold, the bluish-white nacre dragons have iridescent wings and a tail fan.

Serpentine
2010-07-25, 12:03 PM
Ah yes, you did include that nacre thing, didn't you. Fairy Nuff. Will Nacre or Ivory be associated with air?

Mr.Bookworm
2010-07-25, 12:04 PM
Someone else said it before, but to distinguish them somewhat from the classical D&D elements, howabout associating them with the classical Chinese elements (the Wu Xing)? Possibly Jet for Fire, Ivory for Earth, Nacre for Metal, Coral for Water, and Amber for Wood.

afroakuma
2010-07-25, 12:12 PM
Probably Ivory linked with Air and Nacre with Cold.

Thrawn183
2010-07-25, 12:44 PM
I like the Emotion dragons, but I'd like to see them as templates personally. Something like... Rage moves the base creature 1 step towards evil, Cheer moves 1 step towards good, Sorrow moves 1 step towards neutrality (G/E), Serenity moves 1 step towards neutrality (L/C).

Of course, the templates would each need their own abilities and such (and I can't think off the top of my head an emotion tied towards law or chaos).

ScionoftheVoid
2010-07-25, 12:50 PM
There's a Chaotic Neutral Sand Dragon in Sandstorm, so if you need another possibility (probably not, I entered a bit late) Grain Dragons might work. From weakest to strongest: Silt, Sand, Gravel, Pebble, Boulder. The materials aren't necessarily homogeneous (which fits with a Chaotic theme) and there's already one with stats (which reduces the work needed). The dragons might vary in appearance quite wildly by area, so a Chaotic dragon gathering - even of wyrms of the same type - wouldn't look uniform. That Chaotic dragons (to me) seem the type to invite chaotic dragons of other groupings to their gatherings would make this even more pronounced.

Elementally I'd say: Silt dragons for Air and Electric damage, Sand dragons have ties to deserts and have the Earth subtype, Gravel could easily be a cave-lairing (but not burrowing) Acid dragon with the Earth subtype, Pebble dragons living on beaches representing Water and Cold, finishing with Boulder dragons, massive creatures either in volcanoes (tying them to Fire) or having them on great mountains or possibly under flat plains (probably another Acid, with D&D's grouping of classical and damage elements). Having at leasy one in the group with a flame breath weapon would be good, though. I'd say to go with a volcanic theme and take inspiration from Monster Hunter's Basarios and Gravios (a line breath, for example. Though taking the sleep gas thing might be a bit too close to the inspiration. One or the other is probably a reasonable limit).

Silt dragons might be small but vicous little dragons, using stealth and ambush attacks (possibly CE). Sand dragons are in it for themselves, though they do show their own form of "mercy" (CN, as mentioned). Gravel dragons might be more concerned with far-fetched goals, never to come to fruition but always willing to help with what they think is right (a CG rebel leader?). Pebble dragons might be very flashy, always the type to think of their appearances. Selfish and easy to anger, but maybe not malicious unless heavily insulted (I don't know, CN or CE?). Having a volcanic dragon that's good would be nice, so putting the Boulder dragon as CG, a hot-blooded leader of the Grain dragons (that name sounded better the first time I typed it, but it sounds better for the Chaotics than Particle dragons) who might screw up from time to time but does the right thing in the end. If we go with Pebbles being CE that gives an even split (apart from Neutral, which only gets one dragon).

I may just use this grouping myself, even if you don't, but I hope it helps in some way.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-07-25, 12:54 PM
Granite, Marble, Agate, Pumice, Slate, etc. . . Rock dragons. . .lots of types od rock you could think up. . . just pick your favorite sounding ones. . .

Mr.Bookworm
2010-07-25, 01:03 PM
Probably Ivory linked with Air and Nacre with Cold.

Ivory with air? That strikes me as an odd jump. Nacre as cold makes more sense to me, but still seems kind of odd. :smallconfused:

OR you could discard elemental associations all together. You could make Life Dragons, linking Amber/Jet to plant-life, Coral to sea-life, Ivory to mammals, and, er, Nacre to molluscs.

Something like that could work well, instead of trying to fit in elemental connotations.

afroakuma
2010-07-25, 01:14 PM
Not necessarily elemental connotations, so much as just subtypes, the way other dragons have them.

Example:

{table=head]Chromatic Dragon|Subtype
Black|Water
Blue|Earth
Green|Air
Red|Fire
White|Cold[/table]

{table=head]Ferrous Dragon|Subtype
Chromium|Cold
Cobalt|Air
Iron|Fire
Nickel|Water
Tungsten|Fire[/table]

{table=head]Gem Dragon|Subtype
Amethyst|Earth
Crystal|Air
Emerald|Air
Sapphire|Earth
Topaz|Water[/table]

{table=head]Metallic Dragon|Subtype
Brass|Fire
Bronze|Water
Copper|Earth
Gold|Fire
Silver|Cold[/table]

Morph Bark
2010-07-25, 01:16 PM
Something like that could work well, instead of trying to fit in elemental connotations.

Myeah. Amber Dragons could have a breath weapon that is something sticky, like a web effect. Jet could instead have a petrification-like effect (but not actual petrification, perhaps instead Str or Dex damage of sorts, or just temporary penalties on Str- and Dex- based skills and attack rolls?) - otherwise if not Jet, Coral or Nacre could use this, though they'd all have different visual effects. Ivory's sorta tough... I'm actually no imagining the Fang Dragon could be reflavoured into being the Ivory Dragon instead.

hamishspence
2010-07-25, 01:28 PM
In one of the 2nd ed Monstrous Compendium books, the Amber dragon spat sticky resin.

It also had a gore attack with its horn, instead of a bite attack, and druid casting instead of wizard casting.

afroakuma
2010-07-25, 01:32 PM
Indeed, MC3 does have that dragon.

Hmm.

Starting to feel that the jewel dragons should go neutral after all.

But then I need an overarching name for my other ones. :smalltongue:

Benejeseret
2010-07-25, 01:56 PM
Opposite of Ferrous,

Why not go with something along the lines of Transition Dragons

Major force being the Rust Dragons - which I think I have seen statted out somewhere. Breath that corrodes all metal. Likely (earth) I believe

The theme being processes that happen to minerals/states of matter rather then just minerals themselves. Focus on transitions (chaos theme) such as rusting, melting/freezing, boiling/condensation, ionization/deionization, and sublimation/deposition.


Rust Dragons - as above. (earth). Rusts away metal
- Deep dragon of tunnels and caverns

Freeze/Melt Dragons - Need better name. Should have a burrow ability. I am picturing one whose breath is Paralytic or even Flesh-to-Stone. Perhaps go the Warhammer Choas dragon here and give it 2 heads, one for the freeze (paralytic/cold avalanche style) and one for the melt (fire)
- very chaotic dual nature type. Regions may include mountains where glaciers and volcanoes both present.

Steam Dragon - Much like a steam mephit only in dragon form. May already be statted somewhere. (water)
- Found in hot/wet regions of jungles and makes lairs in hotsprings

Sublimation Dragon - Needs a cooler name, but find a way to give it an alternative Gas/Incorporeal form. Has a Dessication Breath (air)
- Perhaps a desert dragon, also known as the Drought Dragon

Plasma Dragons - Good old Hellfire mechanics. It burns even fire itself. (air) or even (extraplanar?). Perhaps give it some Ooze traits
- Home to very high magic areas where the states of matter themselves have been morphed

___________
Runner Up/Alternative Idea:

Radioactive Decay Dragon - Bad name again, but its breath works like a Hexblade Curse and directly weakens/debuffs severely. Could even throw on aging effects. Perhaps give it some Undead traits
- For sheer plot, maybe when these aged dragon die of old age they fly very high around the world and die in the air, only to plummet and violently detonate upon hitting the ground - ICBM Nuke

hamishspence
2010-07-25, 01:59 PM
Major force being the Rust Dragons - which I think I have seen statted out somewhere. Breath that corrodes all metal. Likely (earth) I believe

Rust dragons were statted out in Draconomicon as a Planar Dragon.

Hmm- given that Mist can be water droplets, water molecules, and maybe tiny ice crystals as well, maybe the Mist Dragon (free at WOTC site online, also in Dragons of Faerun) would capture a "three states of matter" concept well?

Beelzebub1111
2010-07-25, 02:03 PM
Aware, yes.

But again, definitely not what I'm looking for.

Refresher:


{table=head]Alignment|Race|Members
Neutral|Gem|Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, Topaz
Good|Metallic|Brass, Bronze, Copper, Gold, Silver
Lawful|Ferrous|Chromium, Cobalt, Iron, Nickel, Tungsten
Evil|Chromatic|Black, Blue, Green, Red, White
Chaotic|???|[/table]

I need to just decide on an overarching theme by which to name the five chaotic dragons. Are they halogen dragons? Gas dragons? Sense dragons? Bloom dragons?

Just different colors, that represent a different spectrum:
Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, Brown, Grey

afroakuma
2010-07-25, 02:04 PM
Got it:

Lustrous dragons.

Benejeseret
2010-07-25, 02:14 PM
Ok,

Mist Dragons = Steam Dragons in my post if Mist already statted

Morph Bark
2010-07-25, 02:17 PM
Just different colors, that represent a different spectrum:
Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, Brown, Grey

Brown and Yellow are taken, both are Chromatic.

afroakuma
2010-07-25, 02:21 PM
Brown and Yellow are taken, both are Chromatic.

They're not actually chromatic dragons, though. There was a thing on this once, can't remember where...

Gist of it, though, was that steel dragons aren't actually metallic dragons, and brown/yellow/whatever else dragons aren't actually chromatic, because in each case there are traits beyond "I am a color" or "I am named after a metal" that define the grouping.

For example, true metallic dragons have two breath weapons. A steel dragon has only one.

hamishspence
2010-07-25, 02:22 PM
Sand, Deep, and Fang, became Brown, Purple, and Gray, in 4E.

However, while 5 extra chromatic dragons might be nice (if you keep these renamings, and add the Yellow and Orange dragons from Dragon Compendium) it wouldn't follow the "five dragons of every type" principle.


They're not actually chromatic dragons, though. There was a thing on this once, can't remember where...

Gist of it, though, was that steel dragons aren't actually metallic dragons, and brown/yellow/whatever else dragons aren't actually chromatic, because in each case there are traits beyond "I am a color" or "I am named after a metal" that define the grouping.

For example, true metallic dragons have two breath weapons. A steel dragon has only one.

Wasn't it that steel dragons originally had only four limbs instead of six? Wings, and hind legs?

They may have dropped that later on.

Mercury was another exotic metal-named dragon- maybe that was one with only one breath?

The signature feature of browns, was no usable wings in both 2nd and 3rd ed.

afroakuma
2010-07-25, 02:35 PM
Wasn't it that steel dragons originally had only four limbs instead of six? Wings, and hind legs?

Don't think so... they've been pretty consistent about keeping the "no forelimbs" thing squarely in wyvern territory.


Mercury was another exotic metal-named dragon- maybe that was one with only one breath?

Hmm... mercury definitely has only the one breath weapon, but I think you're right, steel did have a second. Maybe the identifier was the limited ability to remain in nondragon form... blast, if only I could find the source on that.


The signature feature of browns, was no usable wings in both 2nd and 3rd ed.

Browns and yellows both.

hamishspence
2010-07-25, 02:37 PM
I know the 3rd ed Yellow (Dragon Compendium) has flight but not wings- but I thought the 2nd ed yellow had wings- and preferred the desert, whereas the 3rd ed yellow is a water dragon?

Maybe it was just the art for the 2nd ed steel dragon that gave me the idea it was two-legged rather than four- any pictures from 2nd ed?

afroakuma
2010-07-25, 02:50 PM
I know the 3rd ed Yellow (Dragon Compendium) has flight but not wings- but I thought the 2nd ed yellow had wings- and preferred the desert, whereas the 3rd ed yellow is a water dragon?

IIRC the one in the 2.5E MM didn't have any... I'd have to go check. I know you're right with the Brown, though.

Nope, apparently yellows did have wings. Hmm... what was behind it, then...


Maybe it was just the art for the 2nd ed steel dragon that gave me the idea it was two-legged rather than four- any pictures from 2nd ed?

Yeah, the artwork shows it without forelimbs, but the original art gave it forelimbs, plus it has the claw/claw/bite standard routine, and no statblock I've yet come across has indicated missing forelimbs.

hamishspence
2010-07-25, 02:56 PM
Art can be odd. In Dragon Compendium, the Orange dragon appears to have no wings- yet the description says nothing about it not having wing attacks, the way the yellow dragon's does.

The closest thing to a 3.5 ed Steel Dragon pic I've seen is in Dragon Magazine 339: as the "Greyhawk dragon". And the pic does have four legs and wings there.

afroakuma
2010-07-25, 02:59 PM
I went back to the origin of the steel dragon (Dragon #62) and there were forelimbs.

Blasted lack of 2.5E MM... wish I had it here.

hamishspence
2010-07-25, 03:09 PM
Might be interesting to see what dragons have gone through noticable changes.

I don't think the Black dragon had quite the same huge forward-curving horns pre-3rd ed, nor the Blue dragon that massive nose horn.

afroakuma
2010-07-25, 11:25 PM
Well, I think I'll get to statting the lustrous dragons and see how I feel with the results of that.

zalmatra
2010-07-26, 03:24 AM
thorium dragon? maybe dragons named after nuclear materials/isotopes

DracoDei
2010-07-26, 11:53 AM
No, those are the Funky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55828) dragons (Zebra, Tiger, Leopard, Dalmation, Polar Bear).

EDIT: The Square dragons, in case you were wondering, are Hextile, Deltile, Quadrille, Tetrille, and Rhombahexadeltille dragons.

You do realize I already have Funky and Square covered with one dragon each, right? Or were you looking to expand on that?