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Chambers
2010-07-24, 12:14 AM
Got a question for the playground. Consider the following situation...


You are playing an arcane gish.
You are able to choose a number of arcane spells or invocations from other classes that you are then able to use as invocations.
You have a standard action attack that has a variety of effects (think DFA's breath effects) and scales in damage by level.
Your attack can already do the main elemental damages (not at the same time) (fire/cold/electricity/sonic/force), and has the ability to use a Whirlwind Blade type effect (no elemental damage when using it).
You already have a Shield effect that scales in level.


Given that, what spells or invocations would you choose? Which ones would be balanced and which would be overpowered? Overall you'll be able to choose about 5 or 6 of these abilities, so they should count.


Yes, this is totally in reference to my project. Give me suggestions for the Duskblade! :smallsmile:

Jane_Smith
2010-07-24, 12:21 AM
Cat's Grace and/or Bull's Strength for better accuracy/physical damage seems like a must. Considering you also are a melee, and with that aoe you got, id also consider miss-based effects such as Concealment, Blink, Mirror Image, etc. I remember their was also a arcane spell that was swift action, move 10 feet or something? Low-level to. Might be worth looking into for some burst movement.

Zaq
2010-07-24, 12:51 AM
Some form of expanded vision (See Invis / Blindsense / etc.), some form of teleportation (perhaps with an upgraded move-action version, depending on the rest of the character?), some form of dispel, and some form of non-elemental damage.

Oh, and flight. But that should be obvious.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-24, 01:00 AM
Shield. It is so nice to have an AC buff that let's two hand without fear.

Size expanding magic.
Haste.
Fly.
Short range teleportation.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2010-07-24, 01:08 AM
The best gish I ever made made heavy use of greater invisibility, fly, and whirling blade mixed with the burning blade maneuver.

Chambers
2010-07-24, 01:19 AM
List of Top Abilities (so far):

Some form of short range teleport.
Fly
Whirling Blade
Miss Chance (Blur, Mirror Image, Invisibility, etc)
Expanded sense (darkvision, see invisibility)


Secondary Abilities:

Size Enhancing
Haste
Stat boosters
Dispel Effect
Non-elemental damage
Shield


Some of these abilities I've already had ideas for, others I've thought of and dismissed. Keep 'em coming!

Oh, and Polymorph/Alternate Form shenanigans don't work. So all of those are nixed.

Lyndworm
2010-07-24, 01:54 AM
A good Ranged attack is a must, so any of a dozen or so rays would be a necessity.

I can't think of anything else right now, sorry.

Ajadea
2010-07-24, 02:01 AM
Keep Dimension Hop around. Because being able to hit people and teleport them off a cliff is sheer awesome.

The ability to channel ranged touch spells into your strikes would be a very useful ability. Disintegrate in a greatsword = dead something.

Other than that, more debuffs. Blindness/deafness, bestow curse, stuff like that. Also Somatic Weaponry as a bonus feat, and maybe the ability to use a weapon you wield as an arcane focus in the place of other cheap focuses.

Chambers
2010-07-24, 02:13 AM
Keep Dimension Hop around. Because being able to hit people and teleport them off a cliff is sheer awesome.

The ability to channel ranged touch spells into your strikes would be a very useful ability. Disintegrate in a greatsword = dead something.

Other than that, more debuffs. Blindness/deafness, bestow curse, stuff like that. Also Somatic Weaponry as a bonus feat, and maybe the ability to use a weapon you wield as an arcane focus in the place of other cheap focuses.

The focus of this gish is to power himself (or herself :smallsmile: ) up to defeat enemies, rather than depower the enemies. The Hexblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161302) is the gish that works that way for this project.

Ranged spells aren't a necessity because your standard action attack can be used with a ranged weapon, though there will be a whirling blade type ability to throw your melee weapon. 'Cus that's always cool.

Lots of great suggestions, thanks! I think I've got a few ideas to work with that should shape up pretty nice.

Roc Ness
2010-07-24, 07:58 AM
For the scaling ability, how about making it Arcane Strike-esque? Every attack you make gains an extra X to hit and Xd4 to damage based on your level?

Perhaps make it a swift action to activate, so you can't use it every round if you have other stuff that needs doing. Like activating a Belt of Battle. Ah, right. Standard action attack.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-07-24, 08:04 AM
Assuming 'as invocations' means at-will, Vigor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm) would be beyond overpowered. Giving the option of having a continuous Vampiric Blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vampiricBlade.htm) effect could be fitting, though.

A continuous Strength of My Enemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/strengthofMyEnemy.htm) which resets after every encounter could also be fun, and could eventually allow you to overpower much larger and stronger foes. Make the amount of strength damage it deals to a single creature be limited to the maximum enhancement it can grant, so you probably wouldn't be able to disable most creatures by reducing their strength to 0 until the higher levels. Scaling would be a maximum of 8 points, +2 per three levels above 3rd. Note that unless an opponent has a lot of HP or some sort of fast healing or regeneration, you probably won't hit the enhancement cap before it dies.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 08:09 AM
Spell Resistance, or minor abilities that scale from spell resistance. the Shield spell already gives you a shield, so you have great freedom on weapons. Somatic Weaponry is not necessary if you're not using both a shield and a 1h weapon.

Chambers
2010-07-24, 10:41 AM
Y'know, I almost put this in RPG's instead of Homebrew too. Wasn't sure exactly which one. Anyway.


Biffoniacus_Furiou Those sound like they would be great for the Psychic Warrior. :smallsmile:


Snake-Aes Spell Resistance. Check.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 10:52 AM
Just be careful in not creating a monk class. If you give it too many abilities, either they'll all be useless, or it'll be too powerful. It's a self-buffing focused gish, right? Well, psychic warrior's a good inspiration for that.
So, a few long term physical buffs(armor, attack), some short term physical or magical buffs (spell resistance, draining), movement abilities...

Kylarra
2010-07-24, 10:55 AM
Just be careful in not creating a monk class. If you give it too many abilities, either they'll all be useless, or it'll be too powerful. It's a self-buffing focused gish, right? Well, psychic warrior's a good inspiration for that.
So, a few long term physical buffs(armor, attack), some short term physical or magical buffs (spell resistance, draining), movement abilities...Yeah this is what I was thinking, it's easy to want to give your custom class everything a good gish-type needs, but you definitely have to watch the balance.

Chambers
2010-07-24, 11:09 AM
Just be careful in not creating a monk class. If you give it too many abilities, either they'll all be useless, or it'll be too powerful. It's a self-buffing focused gish, right? Well, psychic warrior's a good inspiration for that.
So, a few long term physical buffs(armor, attack), some short term physical or magical buffs (spell resistance, draining), movement abilities...

What are you talking about? The monk is awesome, it's actually what I'm using to balance against....

Yeah, I couldn't even finish typing that. Finding that balance is a little difficult, as I don't want them to overshadow the fighter but instead fill a different role.

Chambers
2010-07-24, 10:27 PM
This is why I originally posted it in homebrew... :smallsmile:

Here's an idea. This ability would be gained by all duskblades at level 2, and the attack ability would be gained later. What level do you think would be appropriate for the attack ability?

Dimension Stride (Sp): The duskblade can step behind the barrier of reality and emerge instantaneously nearby. He may teleport himself up to 10ft per class level, in 5ft increments. The duskblade may use this ability as his movement, meaning that he does not traverse the terrain normally but instead simply appears at the desired location. This is in effect a new mode of movement and the duskblade does not provoke attacks of opportunity for moving in this manner. Moving in this manner requires no extra activation, the duskblade simply takes his movement normally, either as a move action, double move action, or 5ft step.

The duskblade instantly transfers himself from his current location to any other spot within range. He always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. He can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed his maximum load, but he may not bring along other creatures. There is no restriction on the duskblades actions after using this ability.

This ability follows the rules stated under Dimension Door for teleporting into an occupied space and is a Conjuration (Teleportation) effect.

Dimension Attack (Su): When using his arcane strike (standard action), the duskblade may use dimension stride both before and after the attack, provided that his total distance moved is not greater than allowed by a single use of his dimension stride ability. The duskblade must move at least 5 feet both before and after he makes his attack in order to utilize the benefits of Dimension Attack.

Lyndworm
2010-07-24, 10:43 PM
Those abilities are awesome. I've always had a soft spot for duskblades and Invocations, so I look forward to this with much anticipation.

Eldariel
2010-07-25, 03:37 PM
Assuming you want only Wiz/Sorc ones, the obvious ones that may be too strong but you'll def want if allowed:
- Alter Self
- Wraithstrike: If with melee attacks (such as from Poly)
- Polymorph/Draconic Polymorph
- Celerity: STANDARD ACTIONS!!

More obscure, less unfair:
- (Greater) Dispel Magic: Absolute godsent in any Gish's armory (or any caster's, period).
- Disintegrate: Toolbox swiss army knife that's also the prime weakness of some creatures and a respectable attack spell).
- Fly: Obvious.
- Wings of Cover: Very solid protective effect, though a bit stupid if infinitely usable.
- Lesser Celerity/Greater Mirror Image: Less stupid immediate action defense.
- Teleport/Similar: A combat-usable version seems v. key so Greater Teleport or some of the shorter range ones like Dimension Door or Dimension Hop or such. Long distance is a plus.

Extra options:
- Greater Magic Weapon: If usable with your primary attack.
- Nerveskitter: Obvious.
- Wall of Stone/X: Way to morph battlefield to your liking. Different walls (and fogs and so on) come with different flavors and uses.

Chambers
2010-07-26, 01:57 PM
I removed the Dimension Stride ability. It will appear in a Prestige Class later.

Here's the Duskblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9008269)!

Eldariel
2010-07-26, 02:15 PM
Seems good, but there's one thing I'm worried about. Specifically the Dispel (or rather, Devour): It requires Touch Attack with your weapon. Does this mean you need to connect with the actual weapon to generate the effect? Because that would be problematic; the very reason warrior/casters so badly want that ability is to have the tools to penetrate defenses that otherwise prevent hitting the opponent with your weapon; archers can remove Wind Walls, swordsmen can rid the opp off Ironguard, and remove the massive Touch AC boosts like Scintillating Scales, Halo of Sands/Shield of Faith/whatever, and Polymorph-type effects.

How about splitting it into two modes; allowing channeling it through the attack as per normal, or using it as a targeted Dispel against a target within your weapon's threatened range (with some arbitrary number thrown for ranged weapons).

Chambers
2010-07-26, 02:27 PM
We should probably move all discussion of the new class to it's thread.