PDA

View Full Version : I do believe my leg is being pulled. (3.5)



Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-07-24, 05:01 AM
My players were making their characters for a campaign that I am going to run soon and one of them wants to be a cleric. When I ask for their character sheets to have them for when the game begins I look his over and see that he doesn't have any armor, instead he is using the monk's ac boost as a class ability. I question this, and he says it is in one of the official books.

I have never seen this in any book I own (about 20 or so), but I didn't want to dismiss it just because I don't have the book he is talking about. Is there such a thing were a Cleric gives up his armor proficiencies for Monk AC? Or is my player trying to pull a fast one?

FelixG
2010-07-24, 05:06 AM
I am not aware of it, but why dont you ask him to show you?

Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-07-24, 05:09 AM
I have but I haven't seen him for a while and I wanted to sort this out before the game starts so I don't have to spend time at the begining of it fixing character sheets.

Critical
2010-07-24, 05:09 AM
Don't know of that one either, why don't you ask your player first from which book it is? And why doesn't he just buy a Monk's belt? :smalltongue:

HasegawaTakumi
2010-07-24, 05:10 AM
I have something like almost 100 books, including some 3rd party ones, and I have yet to find an ACF like that

ghost_warlock
2010-07-24, 05:14 AM
There's a druid ACF (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-druid) that does that in SRD/Unearthed Arcana; also gives up wild shape, though. Closest I've come to it so far...

Frog Dragon
2010-07-24, 05:15 AM
Shenanigans. I am quite sure this doesn't actually exist. Not officially, at least.

WinWin
2010-07-24, 05:17 AM
Not in 3.x. 2e's spells and power has the Monk as a modified Cleric though. Alternate sphere access, unarmed attacks and no armour.

The closest 3.5 ACF that I can think of is cloistered cleric. Perhaps you should suggest a 1or 2 level dip in monk or unarmed swordsage if he wants the unarmoured defence so bad.

Leads into Complete Divine's Sacred Fist PrC if that is the direction he wants for his character. Would only be a caster level or 2 behind an actual cleric, perhaps 4 lost CL if Sacred Fist is maxxed out via Unarmed Swordsage entry.

Amphetryon
2010-07-24, 05:18 AM
What level are the characters?

It's theoretically possible he was looking at a Sacred Fist build.

Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-07-24, 05:21 AM
This is pretty much what I was expecting to see. The instant he told me about it I thought it was fishy. You guys have pretty much confirmed my suspicions. Thanks.

Reynard
2010-07-24, 05:40 AM
Strange thing is that he'd be better off just using medium armour, so there's no reason to even want the Monk's Wis to AC.

Aroka
2010-07-24, 06:02 AM
I question this, and he says it is in one of the official books.

That's not an answer. Tell him to provide book name and page number. Seems pretty obvious.

BobVosh
2010-07-24, 07:07 AM
Strange thing is that he'd be better off just using medium armour, so there's no reason to even want the Monk's Wis to AC.

Depends on the dex, even then he may have the wisdom for it. Now medium armor is better then the +3 or whatever bonus the monk gets on top of his wisdom.

ghost_warlock
2010-07-24, 09:30 AM
Honestly, the only issue I really see with it is if he takes all the cash he would have spent on magic armor and uses it to collect oodles of nightsticks to power DMM-persist shenanigans.

Otherwise, yeah, just getting magic'd armor will usually result in a higher AC; plus whatever special enchantments (e.g., fortification, energy resist, whatnot) he'd get on armor but can't get running around nekkid.

Douglas
2010-07-24, 09:39 AM
If he's getting it from the Monk's Belt magic item, it's legitimate. If he says he's getting it from an alternate class feature, I'm pretty sure he's pulling from third party or Dragon, or is making it up.

elonin
2010-07-24, 10:19 AM
Strange thing is that he'd be better off just using medium armour, so there's no reason to even want the Monk's Wis to AC.

I'd also guess that this guy is using the monks belt or has simply misread some text. Not sure about cleric, but I've used the monks belt ac idea myself. PC was scout/swshbuckler/dervish. Had my dex and wisdom prioritized using the monks belt for 1+wis modifier and got to keep my full dex for ac. The thing to look at is the comparison in price between armor+enhancements etc and bracers of armor+monks belt. The downsides are the possibility of a targeted dispel (leaves you essentially naked) and not being able to use armor crystals. On the side of beneficial you don't have as much encumbrance and your touch ac is the same as your base. Not sure how well this stacks up for a cleric that could have the benefit of medium or heavy armor.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 10:24 AM
If it's a feature, it's incredibly obscure, so you have to ask him where he is getting it from. If he can't show it to you, deny it.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-24, 10:29 AM
Personally, I'd say that you should call him on making it up - that's basically cheating - but you should also let him have it. It's not a huge issue, honestly; it's a nifty feature but not as good as armor, and that will make him happy. It will encourage him to next time come to you and ask if he could get something like that.

Siosilvar
2010-07-24, 10:32 AM
If it's a feature, it's incredibly obscure, so you have to ask him where he is getting it from. If he can't show it to you, deny it.

Or allow it if you want (I remember trading out Heavy Armor and Tower Shield proficiency on a fighter for Combat Expertise and Dodge, and the DMG encourages modifying classes, albeit carefully); with an admonishment about not asking and trying to pass it off as official.


That said, I'd imagine he's trying to use MIC rules to add an armor bonus to his Scholar's Outfit's robe as Bracers of Armor, casting Magic Vestment and Shield of Faith on them. So... fair warning, I guess. Though it is more expensive than just buying a set of Full Plate.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 10:35 AM
Well, if the dm wants to play around with it, sure, but he came here asking to confirmation on the obscure feature, so i'm guessing he'd rather not allow it.

But sure. Trade armor proficiencies for it. Let him keep Light if you're going to be generous.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-24, 10:49 AM
One good resource to bookmark is the Alternative Class Features III (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III) list. There's nothing like what you describe on that list, which pretty comprehensively covers all the WotC D&D books. So it's possibly from a Dragon issue (a legitimate source as these magazines were marked "100% Official D&D", but of course you'd need to see it) or some 3rd-party book or homebrew web site (generally unbalanced and not even worth reading).

Prime32
2010-07-24, 11:10 AM
I'm going to second what people have said - there's no option like that, but it wouldn't be overpowered to allow it.

Person_Man
2010-07-24, 11:21 AM
Is there such a thing were a Cleric gives up his armor proficiencies for Monk AC? Or is my player trying to pull a fast one?

Monk's Belt (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Monk%27s_Belt). Not a class ability, but effectively the same thing for a relatively cheap price. And it's core.

There's also the Balance Domain from Player's Guide to Faerun, which adds Wis to AC (on top of armor, IIRC) once per day.

And there's the Saint template (+2 LA) from BoED, which adds tons of bonuses, including Wis to AC.

IdleMuse
2010-07-24, 01:48 PM
Yeah, I was thinking a misreading of the Balance domain.

Malakar
2010-07-24, 02:37 PM
or some 3rd-party book or homebrew web site (generally unbalanced and not even worth reading).

In my experience homebrew web sites are at least as worth reading as official WotC books.

Haven't seen a homebrew web site that gives a level 11 Wizard the ability to cast Wish without the XP cost yet, so still beating Core D&D.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-24, 05:10 PM
In my experience homebrew web sites are at least as worth reading as official WotC books.

Haven't seen a homebrew web site that gives a level 11 Wizard the ability to cast Wish without the XP cost yet, so still beating Core D&D.

You may want to browse D&DWiki more...or, on second thought, don't.:smallsmile: I remember seeing a 'Flaw' on that site that forced the character to announce his name to enemies at the beginning of every fight, because he was so proud of it. This, however, let him re-roll all missed attack rolls and saves against those enemies. Oh, and because it was a flaw, he got a bonus feat for it.

Dr.Epic
2010-07-24, 05:12 PM
I have never seen this in any book I own (about 20 or so), but I didn't want to dismiss it just because I don't have the book he is talking about. Is there such a thing were a Cleric gives up his armor proficiencies for Monk AC? Or is my player trying to pull a fast one?

That's probably not even half the amount of D&D books ever printed for 3.5. Also, have you asked him what book and if he could bring it next session to see this ability?

PId6
2010-07-24, 06:29 PM
It's not a huge issue, honestly; it's a nifty feature but not as good as armor, and that will make him happy. It will encourage him to next time come to you and ask if he could get something like that.
Eh, Wis to AC can be a pretty big power boost for cleric. Greater Luminous Armor + Magic Vestment + Monk's Belt = oodles of AC more than armor-wearing can give, and having this for free basically just cuts 13,000 gp out of the equation.

Malakar
2010-07-24, 06:43 PM
You may want to browse D&DWiki more...or, on second thought, don't.:smallsmile: I remember seeing a 'Flaw' on that site that forced the character to announce his name to enemies at the beginning of every fight, because he was so proud of it. This, however, let him re-roll all missed attack rolls and saves against those enemies. Oh, and because it was a flaw, he got a bonus feat for it.

You may want to read D&D wiki more. There is some good stuff there. I said that sites are worth reading, not worth allowing everything from.

Complete Mage has Piercing Evocation, and that's just 45 seconds of your life reading that. Everything has it's share of terrible material. It's the good stuff you want to look for.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-24, 07:05 PM
Piercing Evocation? A feat that makes blaster-casters (suboptimal, but can be so much fun) not helpless against things with Energy Resistance aside from metacheesing their way into quadruple-digit damage?

That doesn't even register on my scale of 'terrible material', so I guess we're not going to find much common ground...

Malakar
2010-07-24, 07:24 PM
Piercing Evocation? A feat that makes blaster-casters (suboptimal, but can be so much fun) not helpless against things with Energy Resistance aside from metacheesing their way into quadruple-digit damage?

That doesn't even register on my scale of 'terrible material', so I guess we're not going to find much common ground...

Piercing Evocation does not make blaster casters not helpless against things with energy resistance. It makes them weaker against things with Energy Resistance than if they had taken any feat whatsoever other than Piercing Evocation, including toughness.

Pick any monster with energy resistance. Assume an energy spell cast by a Wizard of that level with and without Piercing Evocation. Compare damage. Oh crap, it's identical. Failgasm.

Douglas
2010-07-24, 07:33 PM
Yeah, Piercing Evocation helps only if the target has enough energy resistance to absorb ALL of the non-piercing damage. Unless you're talking about outright immunity, resistance above 30 is extremely rare, and it's a pretty pathetic blaster wizard that can't manage 40+ damage in one shot at the levels where 30 energy resistance is likely to be encountered. At levels where 20 damage is decent, I'd be surprised to see any resistance above 10, and more likely 5. In each case, the feat does practically nothing.

It's "terrible" in the sense of not accomplishing what it's supposed to, not in the sense of being overpowered.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-24, 07:37 PM
Piercing Evocation does not make blaster casters not helpless against things with energy resistance. It makes them weaker against things with Energy Resistance than if they had taken any feat whatsoever other than Piercing Evocation, including toughness.

Pick any monster with energy resistance. Assume an energy spell cast by a Wizard of that level with and without Piercing Evocation. Compare damage. Oh crap, it's identical. Failgasm.

So I said Energy Resistance, i should have specified Energy Immunity. No, it's not a powerful feat, but it lets that pyromaniac sorcerer who loves his Scorching Rays and sucked up the caster level loss for Elemental Savant do more than twiddle thumbs when the party fights Fire Elementals. Toughness won't do that. And it does it without costing spell level increases like Searing Spell (which I personally find sillier - making your fire so hot it can set fire on fire is far stranger than just being able to make your elemental damage partially untyped).

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 07:41 PM
So I said Energy Resistance, i should have specified Energy Immunity. No, it's not a powerful feat, but it lets that pyromaniac sorcerer who loves his Scorching Rays and sucked up the caster level loss for Elemental Savant do more than twiddle thumbs when the party fights Fire Elementals. Toughness won't do that. And it does it without costing spell level increases like Searing Spell (which I personally find sillier - making your fire so hot it can set fire on fire is far stranger than just being able to make your elemental damage partially untyped).

Wouldn't a level in Archmage for free spontaneous energy substitution be better?

The Glyphstone
2010-07-24, 07:42 PM
Wouldn't a level in Archmage for free spontaneous energy substitution be better?

It would by far. There's situations where you couldn't do that though, such as a campaign that didn't get to where Archmage was available. And you can always retrain feats later.

Malakar
2010-07-24, 07:56 PM
So I said Energy Resistance, i should have specified Energy Immunity. No, it's not a powerful feat, but it lets that pyromaniac sorcerer who loves his Scorching Rays and sucked up the caster level loss for Elemental Savant do more than twiddle thumbs when the party fights Fire Elementals. Toughness won't do that. And it does it without costing spell level increases like Searing Spell (which I personally find sillier - making your fire so hot it can set fire on fire is far stranger than just being able to make your elemental damage partially untyped).

10 damage per action is not even worth the action. Cast Magic Missile. Cast any other spell. Literally any spell. 10 damage is barely worth an action at level 2. By the time you get into Elemental Savant, the only time it's even justifiable at all to not just have another spell, you can still MM for more than ten, even if you can't buff the party, or BC.

Searing Spell may require upping the level of the spell by one, but I'll take half damage at one level higher over 10 damage to a creature with 60-200 HP any day.