Player power imbalance

[molten_dragon]

I'm currently running a campaign for my wife and 3 other people. It's a party of fairly heavily optimized characters. That's not a problem for me, since I'm a powergamer myself and have no qualms about optimizing enemies for them to fight.

One of the players though, has not optimized his character at all, either due to not being interested in doing so, or not knowing how to do so (I'm not really sure which it is).

He hasn't said anything yet, but it's been pretty obvious during the last two sessions that he's getting frustrated by the situation. He gets irritated that his character can't contribute much during combat, and sometimes just leaves the table in a huff.

Now as I see it, there's really only 2 options, buff his character, or nerf everyone else's. I'm going to be discussing this with the group to see what they want to do, but I'm looking for your help in how to do it. The party just hit level seven, and consists of:

Gnome Sorcerer 5/Shadowcraft mage 2
Human archivist 7
Whisper Gnome Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150256) 7 (a homebrewed ranger-style martial adept that uses ranged maneuvers)
Dragonborn Dragon Shaman 7

Everyone is fairly well optimized except for the dragon shaman. He seems to mostly be playing the role of the party tank, but I'm not sure if that's because he actually wants to, or simply because he feels obligated to.

So, what could I do to help buff the Dragon Shaman if that's the route they decide to go with?

Alternately, what could I do to nerf the rest of the party without crippling them?

Any other suggestions that would be helpful?

[Bayar]

I'm currently running a campaign for my wife and 3 other people. It's a party of fairly heavily optimized characters

Continue...

[molten_dragon]

Continue...

Yeah, sorry. I was trying to hit the 'preview post' button to see if the hunter link was in my sig and accidentally hit submit instead.

[Bayar]

Better buff the Dragon Shaman. No use in nerfing everybody else for one single person.

The problem is that a Dragon Shaman doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the party members.

[Panigg]

Uhh, buffing a dragon shaman is going to be tough. They don't really have that much potential. Or to put it in another way: They're pretty balanced.

Maybe throw in some extra loot for the shaman, that always helps.

[Vulaas]

Have him re-spec as a DMM:Persisting cleric, fluffing their buffing as sacred rituals they must observe in the morning to gain the blessing of their Dragon Totem. Choose the right domains and spells, and you're doing the same stuff but with much more impact.

Otherwise, nudge them towards resources like the Dragon Shaman Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19865414/The_Dragon_Shaman_Handbook) so they can make better due with what they have.

[FelixG]

Buff him up a bit, not fair to others to nerf them for one player.

You might also consider talking to him, ask him if he chose not to optimize or doesn't know how (i personally never optimize my characters even though i am capable)

If he is not capable offer him a respec and offer to maybe sit down and help him learn or point him toward some guides?

[JeminiZero]

I agree with Buff the Dragon Shaman, BUT only if that is what your player wants to play. As you said, he may be party tanking out of obligation more than anything else.

Since you are already accepting homebrew, adding some enhancements to the Dragon Shaman should be easy enough. Improve BAB to full, and let him retrain to a few feats for something more optimized. Also the Generalist link in my sig might be of interest to you.

[Greenish]

Swap Dragon Shaman to Dragonfire Adept? The concept is the same, the execution much better.

[Edit]: Dragon Shaman's problem is that the breath weapon takes time to recharge, but DS doesn't really have anything meaningful to do whilst waiting.

[aivanther]

1) See how open the player is to advice. Explain that you are worried he is not having fun, and you want your games to be fun for everybody.

2) See how open he is to changing his build.

3)a. If he really wants to go dragon shaman help him optimize it and/or use a homebrew.

3)b. If he would change classes look at a Warblade or Spirit Lion Totem Bardbarian/Dungeoncrasher if he wants to be smashing into melee

3)c. If he wants to simply be a "fighter type" but is more open to how he does it, try psychic warrior or cursader chain spike wielder.

[Kylarra]

Swap Dragon Shaman to Dragonfire Adept? The concept is the same, the execution much better.

[Edit]: Dragon Shaman's problem is that the breath weapon takes time to recharge, but DS doesn't really have anything meaningful to do whilst waiting.Yes this. DFA is awesome, nearly the same flavor and tier 3 as opposed to 4. He still might have trouble coping with your tier 1/2, but at least with DFA he can attack every round with his breath attack, plus entangling exhalation = awesome.

[imperialspectre]

If the problem is that your Dragon Shaman player doesn't know how to optimize, it's fairly easy to teach him some basic kung fu in the span of a couple days. Unless there are some fairly crazy things your players are doing on feat and spell selection, a Sorc/Shadowcraft Mage isn't exactly the most Killer of Killer Gnomes and Archivist is good but basically tied with Cloistered Cleric on a power level. I'm fairly certain the Tier 1s aren't doing anything super crazy, because according to you, your ranged martial adept is having no problem keeping up with them. So helping your player keep up shouldn't be hard.

If the problem is that your Dragon Shaman player doesn't want to optimize, then he doesn't have any right to complain when the majority of the group does - just like if Doc Roc or Eldariel were in a group of core-only Fighter/Monk/Ranger players, they'd be out of line bringing an infinite-loop full caster in. Optimization preferences are decided by the group in question, and people who don't line up with those preferences should either toe the party line, walk away, or choose not to complain if there's a disparity.

And I third the DFA suggestion. DFA gets all of the flavor and is actually somewhat useful on top. Also, it's basically Constitution-based, so you can load up on one ability score and be fairly survivable without a lot of work.

[aivanther]

I'm fairly certain the Tier 1s aren't doing anything super crazy, because according to you, your ranged martial adept is having no problem keeping up with them. So helping your player keep up shouldn't be hard.

Well, they're only level 7. Super crazy probably hasn't come out yet...

[Greenish]

Well, they're only level 7. Super crazy probably hasn't come out yet...It would've if they were going for super crazy. :smallwink:

[Kylarra]

It would've if they were going for super crazy. :smallwink:Pazuzu Pazuzu Paz-:smallamused:

[DragoonWraith]

Level 7 is really where the super-crazy starts. 4th level spells are substantially better than 3rd, and at that point the disparity really becomes obvious, IMO.

The Dragon Shaman is a hideously designed class. Consider this another suggestion for Dragonfire Adept.

[AvatarZero]

You could talk to him about why he chose the Dragon Shaman to begin with. It's possible that there's another class that would represent his initial concept, or that has a nice draconic feel to it, or that just does what he thought the Dragon Shaman could do but better, or whatever. You could then change the rules he's using for his character and pretend that he was always playing his new class.

[DragoonWraith]

Auras in general are just not good or interesting in D&D, and the Marshal and Dragon Shaman get too little else. Most of all, the class is basically designed to sit there, emanating their aura, and let everyone else handle stuff with the help of their buffs.

There's really nothing you can do with that. Even if the Aura was crazy-good, it would still be boring. That's why I say the class is hideously designed. As it is, it's also underpowered.

If he really likes having the Auras as an option, maybe make some Draconic Auras into DfA invocations?

[Greenish]

If he really likes having the Auras as an option, maybe make some Draconic Auras into DfA invocations?Dragonblooded characters can pick some auras as feats.

[Kylarra]

Dragonblooded characters can pick some auras as feats.And similar to druids, DFAs only really need one feat, so it's all good.

[Tengu_temp]

Tell the player that he can rebuild his character if he wants, and offer to help him optimize his character - remaking it as a dragonfire adept would work best, but pretty much all classes in DND can be optimized with enough effort. If he doesn't agree, then tough luck for him - forcing the whole group to change its playstyle for one player is out of question.

[Zaq]

The fact that there's a Hunter makes me see that you're not averse to Tome of Battle and homebrew. So, give the Dragon Shaman some martial maneuvers. Give him a smaller number known, from probably Desert Wind (specifically of the element of his breath weapon rather than fire, if applicable) and White Raven. Maybe one other if you want to increase his power. Then give him a recharge mechanic maybe based on his breath weapon (something like allowing him to recharge one maneuver for every enemy hit who failed their save and one for every two enemies who make their saves, rounded up... or the option to recharge as a swordsage, as well) or something similar, and he'll be a lot more flexible. Way behind the full casters, but he'll have something to do on his non-breathing rounds other than remind people what his aura is.

[aivanther]

Level 7 is really where the super-crazy starts. 4th level spells are substantially better than 3rd,

Ah, my math-fu failed me, I thought that was lvl 8 for some reason...

[Optimator]

The fact that there's a Hunter makes me see that you're not averse to Tome of Battle and homebrew. So, give the Dragon Shaman some martial maneuvers. Give him a smaller number known, from probably Desert Wind (specifically of the element of his breath weapon rather than fire, if applicable) and White Raven.

This seems like a really elegant solution.

[PId6]

Ah, my math-fu failed me, I thought that was lvl 8 for some reason...
It is for sorcerers. :smallannoyed:

[molten_dragon]

I talked to the group, and the player with the underpowered character is open to rebuilding his character or getting it buffed somehow. My first suggestion to him was to reroll as a crusader, since that would make it much easier to keep up and he could keep some of the same flavor. He shot that down though and told me that he isn't willing to play anything from the tome of battle.

I asked him this morning what party role he wanted to play, so hopefully that will help narrow down some of the options. I'll keep the dragonfire adept suggestion in mind, but that doesn't work all that well if he wants to play a tank (or does it?, I'm not completely familiar with the class). Does anyone else have suggestions of things he could play for a tank-like meleer that could keep up with the rest of the party and doesn't use ToB?

[Optimator]

Keep up with the rest of the party but not use the ToB? That's a tall, tall order. In fact, that would probably take all the deep-crow magic optimization possible. I do not envy you. Homeboy is not gonna pull his weight while maintaining the same role without the ToB at this point.

[JeminiZero]

Does anyone else have suggestions of things he could play for a tank-like meleer that could keep up with the rest of the party and doesn't use ToB?

Cleric, Druid, Incarnum, Psionics (PsyWar or Slayer), Homebrew.

[molten_dragon]

Cleric, Druid, Incarnum, Psionics (PsyWar or Slayer), Homebrew.

He won't play a cleric since I know for a fact he's already playing one in another campaign. It wouldn't help anyway, since he feels clerics should be healbots.

Druid might be an option, I'll have to suggest it to him. I might also suggest wildshape ranger.

Incarnum might be an option, I have the book, but none of us have ever used it, so there'll be a learning curve.

Psionics is out, since no one has the books for it.

Homebrew could also be an option I suppose.

[Boci]

Psionics is out, since no one has the books for it.

Its in the system reference document.

[JeminiZero]

Psionics is out, since no one has the books for it.

You'll be pleased to know that PsyWars and Slayers (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Classes) are on the SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:System_Reference_Document). The 3rd Melee-able Psionics class is the Ardent, but that isn't SRD.

[Greenish]

Incarnum might be an option, I have the book, but none of us have ever used it, so there'll be a learning curve.He seems to possess an unerring sense for suck, so don't let him be Soulborn, at least without a fix. (There are several hovering around.)

[molten_dragon]

Its in the system reference document.

We never use psionics in my games so I tend to forget that. I'll mention it to him though. In how latest email he said he's considering a dragonborn goliath knight.

[Evard]

This might tickle his fancy

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#wildShapeVariantAspectOfN ature

Or gestalt him as X/monk (there is a monk fix somewhere on this site.. i think it is called unarmed swordsage?):smallbiggrin:

or
homebrew the soul knife to make it a bit better and here ya go:p

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicRacesClassesSkillsSpells.htm

[Greenish]

homebrew the soul knife to make it a bit better and here ya go:p

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicRacesClassesSkillsSpells.htmActually, Person_Man has a Soulknife/Soulborn fix here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441).

[Saph]

We never use psionics in my games so I tend to forget that. I'll mention it to him though. In how latest email he said he's considering a dragonborn goliath knight.

Maybe go for some kind of goliath reach/knockdown build? That's pretty effective as a front-line fighter, and doesn't require anything very fancy to work. You could even build one off a single-class Fighter easily enough.

[Boci]

Maybe go for some kind of goliath reach/knockdown build? That's pretty effective as a front-line fighter, and doesn't require anything very fancy to work. You could even build one off a single-class Fighter easily enough.

Dipping into knight to make terrain around you count as difficult though is a valid.

[Eldariel]

I just played Dragon Wildshape Druid without AC taking mostly Air and Summoning/Calling/Growing (all refluffed as Dragon X) spells and called myself a Dragon Shaman. It worked very well.

[molten_dragon]

Now he's wanting to do either a monk/drunken master or a barbarian/runescarred berserker. I'm trying desperately to steer him towards the berserker.

[Eldariel]

Now he's wanting to do either a monk/drunken master or a barbarian/runescarred berserker. I'm trying desperately to steer him towards the berserker.

Do that. With especially Street Fighter Barbarian Lion Spirit Totem Wolf Totem entry, it's not bad at all. Though picks up a bit slowly, but still.

[molten_dragon]

Do that. With especially Street Fighter Barbarian Lion Spirit Totem Wolf Totem entry, it's not bad at all. Though picks up a bit slowly, but still.

The thought of this player making something so min/maxed as that is hilarious.

[Eldariel]

The thought of this player making something so min/maxed as that is hilarious.

Help him with the variants-part; just point out how much better those abilities go with his characters than the default Barbarian's and leave it at that :smallwink:

[Greenish]

Do that. With especially Street Fighter Barbarian Lion Spirit Totem Wolf Totem entry, it's not bad at all. Though picks up a bit slowly, but still.Streetfighter from Cityscape? Didn't that swap fast movement for something, too?

[Edit]: It doesn't, my bad.

[TooManyBadgers]

Modifying classes isn't hard. Give him Bard-equivalent casting from the Sorcerer list. It would parallel his mini-dragon gimmick and it would give him some options that don't suck.

Alternatively, tack some invocations onto the DS and consider dropping/reducing the breath recharge.

edit:
Whatever you do, asking the guy to abandon his character and to drop his concept seems like a pretty lame move. I wouldn't want someone to ask that from me.

[Vin Robinson]

Well, one reason my players have always seemed to enjoy Dragon Shaman is because they're capable front liners.

Here's a few basic changes I think would help him.

Give him full BAB progression instead of 3/4ths.
Double the rate his Draconic Aura progresses.
Give him free Metabreath feats once every 5 levels.
Give him heavy armor proficiency.
Give him Martial Weapon Proficiency.

This should make it so he's more effective at making everyone else better, and making him a decent tank. Dragon Fire Shaman don't really need any stats to function, so he can focus on Str/Con and pick up power attack and still be useful while everyone else is doing stuff.


EDIT: This also doesn't add any complicated book keeping for him to keep track of. It just adds some straight upgrades that are very easy fixes and doesn't require an overhaul of his toon at all.