Gestalt question

[Daisuke1133]

How do the multiclass rules, specifically those related to Base Attack Bonus and Saving Throw progressions, work in regards to gestalt characters?

[Greenish]

How do the multiclass rules, specifically those related to Base Attack Bonus and Saving Throw progressions, work in regards to gestalt characters?You get the better one from either side.

[Daisuke1133]

So there is no stacking of the progressions with classes that are not currently in the active gestalt combo. Am I understanding you correctly?

[Yuki Akuma]

...What?

Each level, a class gets up to a +1 bonus to base attack and saving throws (except at first level, where they can gain up to +2 in saving throws). Fighters, for instance, get +1 BaB every level, so if you have a level of Fighter on one side of your gestalt combo, you get +1 BaB.

[Daisuke1133]

What I'm asking is about is if you stop using a class in your combo, like when taking levels in a prestige class.

[Snake-Aes]

What I'm asking is about is if you stop using a class in your combo, like when taking levels in a prestige class.
You take it on one side normally.

There's no difference in how you treat the progression.

[Daisuke1133]

Ok, so if one class is replaced the progressions stack on that side only, correct?

[Snake-Aes]

I'm not sure what "stacking" you are talking about. Taking a level of fighter and a level of cleric means you get full bab, d10 dice, fort and will saves, cleric casting and a fighter feat.

Taking a level of Warpriest and Cleric nets you full bab, d10 dice, fort and will saves, cleric casting, a bonus domain and Rally. No matter what classes you are advancing on, you just overlap the identical abilities and sum everything else.

[Daisuke1133]

Normally when multiclassing you add the BAB and saving throws of the two class together. For example a 1st level Fighter taking a level in Rogue would now have a BAB of 1, a Fortitude save of 2, a Reflex Save of 2, and a Will save of 0.

[Snake-Aes]

Normally when multiclassing you add the BAB and saving throws of the two class together. For example a 1st level Fighter taking a level in Rogue would now have a BAB of 1, a Fortitude save of 2, a Reflex Save of 2, and a Will save of 0.

Ah, I see. That "bump" remains as far as I am aware.

[Aroka]

With gestalt, you really need to stop looking at the full numbers on the tables and focus on what you get each level (using fractional bonuses is a must in gestalt IMO), which is as follows:

BAB: +1, +3/4, or +1/2
Saves: +1/2 (good) or +1/3 (weak)

So if you take fighter 1//rogue 1, you pick the better for each class; you get +1 BAB, +2+1/2 Fort (first level in a class means +2 to that class' good saves), +2+1/2 Ref, and +1/3 Will.

Then you take fighter 2//cleric 1, and get +1 BAB, +2+1/2 Fort, +1/3 Ref, and +2+1/2 Will. Your total now is BAB +2, Fort +5, Ref +2 (and 5/6, fractions round down), and Will +2 (and 5/6).

It may be a good ieda to drop the +2 to good saves for the first level of each class, and only give that on character level 1 (so you get +2 to any save that's a good save for either of the classes you take at 1st level).

It is painfully complicated, but that's gestalt for you. And it's not nearly overwhelming math, really.

[Snake-Aes]

Aroka, good saves are level/2 + 2. If you suddenly gain a new good save, it makes sense to put that +2 on top. Otherwise I agree with you, fractional is probably better.

[Greenish]

Normally when multiclassing you add the BAB and saving throws of the two class together.Yes, but in gestalt you don't do that. You just use the better one.

[Aroka]

Aroka, good saves are level/2 + 2. If you suddenly gain a new good save, it makes sense to put that +2 on top. Otherwise I agree with you, fractional is probably better.

You'll notice my example's math uses that, since it's RAW. But IMO it gets to be too much pretty fast. A brb1/fig1/pal1/clr1 can have either +4 or +10 Fort, before Con. Any character with 4 levels in one of those classes would have +4. It seems that the +4 option is far more balanced, and that's why I'd recommend dropping the +2s for class levels and only use it for character level, especially in gestalt games or games with a lot of multiclassing.

[Fiery Diamond]

You'll notice my example's math uses that, since it's RAW. But IMO it gets to be too much pretty fast. A brb1/fig1/pal1/clr1 can have either +4 or +10 Fort, before Con. Any character with 4 levels in one of those classes would have +4. It seems that the +4 option is far more balanced, and that's why I'd recommend dropping the +2s for class levels and only use it for character level, especially in gestalt games or games with a lot of multiclassing.

The way I see it, you should (not RAW, since we're dealing with fractions which already isn't, my opinion) only add the +2 at first character level and when you obtain a new good save. For example...

Level 1:Fighter1//Rogue1: +1 BAB, +2.5 Fort, +2.5 Ref, +.1/3 Will
-Totals so far: +1 BAB +2 Fort, +2 Ref, +0 Will (because of rounding)
Level 2:Fighter2//Cleric1: +1 BAB, +.5 Fort, +1/3 Ref, + 2.5 Will
-Total Saves so far: +2 BAB, +3 Fort, +2 Ref, +2 Will (because of rounding)

As you can see, when changing to cleric, the fortitude save didn't get the "first level boost" but the Will save did, because Fort was already a good save and Will was a new good save. I'm pretty sure Snake-Aes was trying to say this.

[Aroka]

The way I see it, you should (not RAW, since we're dealing with fractions which already isn't, my opinion) only add the +2 at first character level and when you obtain a new good save.

That's a fine way to run it too. A save either is good or isn't, and gets a one-time +2 bonus if it is good.

[Fouredged Sword]

Another good reason to dip monk.

[Os1ris09]

Ok I understand everyone else's reasons for using fractional saves/bab but honestly RAW this is how it goes. For each level increase you pick two classes to advance in, if you're going into a PrC you must meet the prereq's (talk with DM since you can gain earlier entry into some PrC's such as MT and UM). Then you compare the two classes and take the better of the two in regards to the following:

HD, BAB, Saves, Skills, Class features

As far as I remember you still take the multiclass penalty from having multiple classes that are not your favored class, which hopefully your DM is not doing but I thought I would put that disclaimer out there.

[Glimbur]

As far as I remember you still take the multiclass penalty from having multiple classes that are not your favored class, which hopefully your DM is not doing but I thought I would put that disclaimer out there.

That only kicks in if your class levels are too far apart. Fighter 20//Wizard 20 has no XP penalties, nor does Cleric 5/Prc A 10 /PrC B 5//Wizard 5/ PrC A 7/ PrC B 8.

As an aside, I think the multiclass XP penalties are dumb but that's neither here nor there.

[Os1ris09]

That only kicks in if your class levels are too far apart. Fighter 20//Wizard 20 has no XP penalties, nor does Cleric 5/Prc A 10 /PrC B 5//Wizard 5/ PrC A 7/ PrC B 8.

As an aside, I think the multiclass XP penalties are dumb but that's neither here nor there.

While I agree with the XP penalties there is one problem. You can't take Two PrC's at once in gestalt.

[Daisuke1133]

I think the multiclass XP penalties are dumb but that's neither here nor there.

Especially since the game I'm trying to put together uses the pathfinder rules for Favored Class. :smallcool:

[aeauseth]

I didn't see any responses that talked about prestiege class restrictions with gestalt characters. You can't use any dual progressing prestige classes such as arcane trickster, mystic theurge, or eldritch knight. Look closely at pg 73 in the UA.

[Os1ris09]

I didn't see any responses that talked about prestiege class restrictions with gestalt characters. You can't use any dual progressing prestige classes such as arcane trickster, mystic theurge, or eldritch knight. Look closely at pg 73 in the UA.

Pg. 73 UA top right corner third bullet in class features


A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at any level, although it's okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class.