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Alejandro
2010-07-24, 09:47 AM
Hello all,

I have reason to suspect that my party is soon going to be attacked by psionics using enemies. We are in a giant dead magic area and have no magic, but psionics still works.

My character owns a Ring of Mind Shielding that still works in this dead magic area (long story.) I have read the description of the ring (immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to magically discern her alignment) but know nothing about psionics, or whether there are any special notes or errata elsewhere about the ring vs. psionics.

So, my question is: will a ring of mind shielding defend me, in any way, from any kind of psionic attack?

Dragon Elite
2010-07-24, 09:49 AM
It depends. Some DMs use the psionic-magic transparency to mean SR 13=PR 13. So, depending on your DM, you either are shielded from powers like Mind probe and Mind thrust, or it has no effect whatsoever.
Ask you DM.

Starbuck_II
2010-07-24, 09:51 AM
Hello all,

I have reason to suspect that my party is soon going to be attacked by psionics using enemies. We are in a giant dead magic area and have no magic, but psionics still works.

My character owns a Ring of Mind Shielding that still works in this dead magic area (long story.) I have read the description of the ring (immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to magically discern her alignment) but know nothing about psionics, or whether there are any special notes or errata elsewhere about the ring vs. psionics.

So, my question is: will a ring of mind shielding defend me, in any way, from any kind of psionic attack?

No, it only prevents things undetectable alignment (1st lv Bard, Pal, etc) works against. As well as thought reading and lie detection.

So no benefit unless they are using those type of effects.

If the ring protected like Mind blank spell (then it would stop psionic mind affecting powers). But currently the ring isn't helpful unless you are preventing mind reading.

Think of it like this: if the ring helps versus spells than it protects versus powers.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 09:52 AM
That's a very specific dead magic zone. How are you guys doing the transparency? Usually there's no difference between psionic and magic, so spell resistance, antimagic and the like affect psionics equally. If that is how you are treating it, then you are immune to equivalent powers.

Alejandro
2010-07-24, 09:54 AM
Shadow Weave magic and magic items work in the dead magic zone. My character paid for a limited wish to be able to use shadow weave magic items without getting hurt. I then captured a shadow weave ring of mind shielding.

I have no idea how the GM does it. Psionics has never appeared in the campaign before in PC or NPC hands (minds?)

However, hints have been dropped that there are some psionicists now enjoying the fact that they can beat on Weave using casters in their area with their full psionic power, and the casters have very little to respond in kind with. (I am a duelist character and don't cast spells to begin with, I plan on simply closing with and skewering the psionicists.)

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 09:56 AM
You're gonna have to ask your dm.

elonin
2010-07-24, 10:03 AM
Psions are like wizards in at least one important sense. If you can get the drop on them their low hit points make them a squishy target.

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-24, 10:37 AM
Psions are like wizards in at least one important sense. If you can get the drop on them their low hit points make them a squishy target.Assuming they don't take the precaution of always having vigor and share pain up, and it's easy enough to have them up all day after about level 5 or so, if you really want to.

Prime32
2010-07-24, 11:08 AM
Psionics don't attack your mind by default, so mental protection will only help against some powers.

Optimystik
2010-07-24, 12:01 PM
So, my question is: will a ring of mind shielding defend me, in any way, from any kind of psionic attack?

No, just the mind-reading ones as Starbuck said. Psionics can do many things that arcane magic can do, including energy blasts, battlefield control and form changing, that don't involve attacking your mind directly.


It depends. Some DMs use the psionic-magic transparency to mean SR 13=PR 13.

That's exactly what transparency means. Any DM not allowing that, is using partial transparency or no transparency.


However, hints have been dropped that there are some psionicists now enjoying the fact that they can beat on Weave using casters in their area with their full psionic power, and the casters have very little to respond in kind with. (I am a duelist character and don't cast spells to begin with, I plan on simply closing with and skewering the psionicists.)

In Faerun, though Psionics does not come from the Weave, they still use the Weave for transmittal to make their effects known in the world. So psionics should not work in Dead magic areas. This is spelled out on page 55 of the XPH (and the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm),) so show it to your DM just in case he's confused.

IdleMuse
2010-07-24, 01:13 PM
so show it to your DM just in case he's confused.

While I understand what you're trying to say here, that sounds like a good way to piss your DM off; if he's decided how Psionics and the Weave interact in 'his' Faerun, showing him evidence to the contrary isn't really going to help. Obviously, if you do this in the right way, everything with be fine and dandy, as it will if you have an easygoing DM, but i've seen situations like that with a grumpy DM and a socially-inept player devolve into an arguement and a lot of bad feeling between the DM and the player party. We didn't get a session that day.

I agree with the general above statement though, if you do want to understand how to defend yourself, your DM is the final arbitrator of how any interaction works at all in the world, and you need to ask him. Be careful not to metagame however; if it's only a out-of-character hint you have that you'll be going up against Psionics, it would seem rather suspicious for your characters to start arming up against them.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-24, 02:49 PM
In Faerun, psionics and magic interact exactly as magic interacts with other magic however...



In Faerun, though Psionics does not come from the Weave, they still use the Weave for transmittal to make their effects known in the world. So psionics should not work in Dead magic areas. This is spelled out on page 55 of the XPH (and the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm),) so show it to your DM just in case he's confused.

I think your the one whose confused, psionics does not draw up on the weave period, there is no using it for transmittal effects, unless you can tell me where its written.
Thankfully Wizards posted the excerpt from PgtF which says exactly how psionics work in Faerun and by all appearances the OP DM read it.



Psionics and the Weave

Unlike spells, which derive their power from Faerūn's Weave (or the Shadow Weave), psionic ability taps only the inner reservoirs of the manifester. In a sense, each psionic creature is its own Weave, using the magic of its own lifeforce and mind to create psionic effects. Mystra and Shar have no ability to deny psionic creatures access to powers, and they do not control the promulgation of psionic lore and ability throughout the populace of Faerūn.

While psionics does not require the Weave to function, psionic powers are magical in nature. Spells such as detect magic can also detect psionic abilities at work, and spells such as dispel magic or antimagic shell can negate, suppress, or completely cancel psionic manifestations. In Faerūn, psionics and magic are not transparent to each other; they interact exactly as magic interacts with other magic

So there you have it, psionics do not tap into or use the weave in anyway. So
just like a shadow weave user they can use their powers in a dead magic zone where the weave no loneger exists. In faerun 99% of the time whn they say dead magic zone. They just mean an area where the weave doesn't exist. So it only effects weave users.

Optimystik
2010-07-24, 02:55 PM
So there you have it, psionics do not tap into or use the weave in anyway. So
just like a shadow weave user they can use their powers in a dead magic zone where the weave no longer exists.

It is you who are mistaken. From the XPH and SRD:


Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.


While I understand what you're trying to say here, that sounds like a good way to piss your DM off; if he's decided how Psionics and the Weave interact in 'his' Faerun, showing him evidence to the contrary isn't really going to help.

That would be the case if his DM is specifically houseruling/handwaving the status quo away. But some DMs actually don't know these rules. A simple "I'm willing to play it your way, but were you aware that this is the way it actually is?" can illuminate matters without being pushy.

In short, his DM may simply be mistaken on how dead magic and psionics interact.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-24, 03:05 PM
{Scrubbed}

Optimystik
2010-07-24, 03:46 PM
Do you know anything about faerun, have you read a single forgotten realms campaign book.

I do, and I have.


The dead magic areas described in the SRD are not the same as the one commonly used in faerun. As I've already stated in faerun a dead magic zone refers to an area where the weave no longer exists.

Whatever differences you perceive are irrelevant. By RAW, psionics does not work inside them. Both you and the OP's DM are free to houserule otherwise, but that is the default state.

Nero24200
2010-07-24, 03:52 PM
I do agree that in a dead magic zone psionics shouldn't work. Theres a difference between Dead Magic zones and Anti-Magic zones - One is set-up to prevent magic from funcitoning properly, the other is a region where no magic exists.

Personally, I doesn't strike me as particularly fun for a DM to throw psionics at you in a dead magic zone with psionics still working fine. Unless psionics are as common in your games as other forms of magic, it's not really fair to use the Psionics is Different rule, since there was no pretense for your party to carry anti-psionic equipment or learn anti-psionic abilities.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-24, 04:13 PM
I do, and I have.
Whatever differences you perceive are irrelevant. By RAW, psionics does not work inside them. Both you and the OP's DM are free to houserule otherwise, but that is the default state.

Differences I perceive? they are different, how does shadow weave magic work in a faerun dead magic zone if they aren't different?

In Faerun a dead magic zone refers to an area where the weave doesn't exist which is why its dead magic. Its not house ruling to say a power that doesn't draw upon the weave isn't effected by its abstinence its common sense. Shadow Weave users can still use their magic in dead magic[weave magic] zones because they don't draw upon the weave.

Now a dead magic zone that effected BOTH shadow weave and regular weave users. Yeah that should work on psionics. But we aren't talking about that kind of area were talking about a zone that cuts off only one source of power.

Its not house ruling its 1=1. Or simply reading why things work the way they do.

Having the same name does NOT make it the same thing. I know three people named Chris they are all quite different. The effects descriptions are clearly different.
Dead Magic SRD=No magic exists
Dead Magic Zone Faerun=No weave magic exists, which is why shadow weave magic still works.

So really explain how psions are effected by the weave using RAW. Keeping in mind that PgTf already stated they aren't.


I do agree that in a dead magic zone psionics shouldn't work. Theres a difference between Dead Magic zones and Anti-Magic zones - One is set-up to prevent magic from functioning properly, the other is a region where no magic exists.


I'll explain it to you as well.
In Faerun a dead magic zone refers to an area where the weave doesn't exist. Shadow Weave users maintain their full power in such areas because they draw magic from a different source that still exists in that area.

So can you agree that a faerun dead magic zone is a bit different then the standard dead magic zone?

Dr.Epic
2010-07-24, 04:16 PM
Great axe: the best defense you can have as a barbarian.

Nero24200
2010-07-24, 04:17 PM
I'll explain it to you as well.
In Faerun a dead magic zone refers to an area where the weave doesn't exist. Shadow Weave users maintain their full power in such areas because they draw magic from a different source that still exists in that area.

So can you agree that a faerun dead magic zone is a bit different then the standard dead magic zone?

I know what a Dead Magic zone is in Faerun. Psionics are not addressed in the Forgotten Realms rulebook though, so any varitation from the XPH is simply a houserule. Despite different origins, psionics is still considered a form of "magic", hence why magic/psionic transparacy is the default assumption in the XPH.

Optimystik
2010-07-24, 04:19 PM
So can you agree that a faerun dead magic zone is a bit different then the standard dead magic zone?

The only difference between psionics and magic in Faerun is that Mystra and Shar cannot regulate psionic powers. That has nothing to do with dead magic zones.

From your own quote:


In Faerūn, psionics and magic are not transparent to each other; they interact exactly as magic interacts with other magic.

Dead magic interacts with magic by not allowing it to function. The same is true of psionics.

If that seems senseless, blame the Faerun designers.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-24, 04:21 PM
The only difference between psionics and magic in Faerun is that Mystra and Shar cannot regulate psionic powers. That has nothing to do with dead magic zones..

Yes it does, Mystra and Shar can regulate magic users by cutting them off from the weave or shadow weave. They can't do anything to psionics because they don't use the weave.

Dead magic isn't magic its a lack of magic, an antimagic field however is magic, doesn't quite apply unless that dead magic works on everything which in this case it doesn't

Your also ignoring the line.
"While psionics does not require the Weave to function"
How does lack of weave effect a psionic creature then?


I know what a Dead Magic zone is in Faerun. Psionics are not addressed in the Forgotten Realms rulebook though, so any varitation from the XPH is simply a houserule. Despite different origins, psionics is still considered a form of "magic", hence why magic/psionic transparacy is the default assumption in the XPH.

Psionics are addressed in Player's Guide to Faerun, where it says psionics don't draw power from the weave.
So explain how a non-weave user is effected by a dead weave zone.

Prime32
2010-07-24, 04:22 PM
I haven't played much in FR, but I've read novels where psionics kept working when the Weave was damaged.

Optimystik
2010-07-24, 04:34 PM
Psionics are addressed in Player's Guide to Faerun, where it says psionics don't draw power from the weave.

Do you have a quote that actually says PGtF dead magic zones are different from XPH dead magic zones?

And why, under your explanation, does an antimagic field suppress psionics then?

Ranos
2010-07-24, 04:46 PM
The DM clearly has ruled against transparency here. I don't think this is worth arguing over.

At best, OP could ask his DM to know the exact details of the psionic transparency in this setting and make sure the DM is doing this voluntarily, not out of a mistaken belief that this is the default. If not, and there's no transparency, he'll have to get a few nice universal items to protect himself.

Starbuck_II
2010-07-24, 04:50 PM
Yes it does, Mystra and Shar can regulate magic users by cutting them off from the weave or shadow weave. They can't do anything to psionics because they don't use the weave.

Dead magic isn't magic its a lack of magic, an antimagic field however is magic, doesn't quite apply unless that dead magic works on everything which in this case it doesn't

Your also ignoring the line.
"While psionics does not require the Weave to function"
How does lack of weave effect a psionic creature then?



Psionics are addressed in Player's Guide to Faerun, where it says psionics don't draw power from the weave.
So explain how a non-weave user is effected by a dead weave zone.

Actually, Psionics create their own personal weave so they use neither shadow weave or mystras'.

Optimystik
2010-07-24, 04:50 PM
The DM clearly has ruled against transparency here. I don't think this is worth arguing over. At best, OP could ask his DM to know the exact details of the psionic transparency in this setting, make sure the DM is doing this voluntarily, not out of a mistaken belief that this is the default, then, if not, get a few nice universal items to protect himself.

That's precisely why I brought it up. It could be an honest mistake.

He may handwave/dismiss it in the name of his plot anyway of course, but that's a different situation - one that mandates more leeway on the challenge, since he's already breaking the rules to make it work.

Or he might change his mind about the ambush - I don't honestly expect this outcome, but it's possible.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-24, 04:54 PM
Do you have a quote that actually says PGtF dead magic zones are different from XPH dead magic zones?

And why, under your explanation, does an antimagic field suppress psionics then?

Its not PgtF dead magic zones. Its simply faerun dead magic zones.

The only dead magic zone in the SRD is the planar trait, where no magic at all functions. Their is no explanation as to the why it simply is, This is what the XPH refers to and is the kind of zone would apply to everything.

A dead magic zone is also not magic its a lack of magic, an antimagic field however is a magic that suppresses magic. Hence it works.

In Faerun however they give you a why for their dead magic zones, which is quite important

In The forgotten realms campaign setting page 55, the first line under the title dead magic says that in some areas of Toril the weave is absent all together. It goes on to describe some of the effects, such if you walk into a dead magic zone you can feel the lack of magic.

So right their is a difference its not described as an area lacking all magic but lacking the weave. But it otherwise functions like a dead magic zone at least to weave users.
Shadow weave users get to ignore disruptions in the weave because they don't use it this includes wild magic zone as well. They also can't sense a dead magic zone because they aren't tied to it.

Now psionics in faerun weren't addressed until years later in PgtF. Where it says they don't draw upon the weave or the shadow weave. Logic should dictate that if a shadow weave user gets to ignore a given disruption of the weave because they don't use it. Psionics should also ignore such disruptions.


The DM clearly has ruled against transparency here. I don't think this is worth arguing over.


It is worth arguing over if you read how dead magic zones in faerun work.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 05:02 PM
Now psionics in faerun weren't addressed until years later in PgtF. But logic should dictate if you don't draw power from the weave you shouldn't be effected by its disruptions just as shadow weave users aren't.

Psionic Transparency says psionic effects are also magical effects. It includes the line "Dead magic is also Dead psionics".

It just makes sense that psionics, in Faerun, also tap from the Weave. It's unnecessary pedantry to assume otherwise if there is psionic-magic transparency in effect.

Optimystik
2010-07-24, 05:06 PM
A dead magic zone is also not magic its a lack of magic, an antimagic field however is a magic that suppresses magic. Hence it works.

FRCS says they are identical, minus the Shadow Weave bit.


A dead magic zone functions in most respects as an antimagic field spell, except it does not impede the spells or spell-like abilities of Shadow Weave users, nor does it interfere with the operation of Shadow Weave magic items.

By RAW, psionics are no exception.
As I said in the beginning, making that exception is an acceptable houserule. There is nothing wrong with making houserules.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-24, 05:15 PM
[calling Opti an idiot]

Dude, play nice.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-24, 05:16 PM
By RAW, psionics are no exception.
As I said in the beginning, making that exception is an acceptable houserule. There is nothing wrong with making houserules.

I think the problem here is an argument of RAW vs. RAI. By RAW, Optimystik is correct, but this is one of those situations where RAI should step in and say "Nuh uh uh!"

I personally think Psionics should work in a Dead Magic Zone in Faerun, of course, I'm not sure it would be fair to send a team of Psionisics after an underprepared party, but thats not my call. As far as this discussion, I think everyone has made their points. Under RAW, Psionics do not work, under RAI, they do. There really shouldn't be a dispute, in the PGtF they never explicitly state if Psionics work in the Dead Magic Zones, which means that by RAW through the transparency ruling in the XPH they don't. However it should be noted that all discussions of Psioncs in Faerun state that it's different and, leading by example, Shadow Weave magic does work. Thus RAI states, it does work.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-24, 05:18 PM
I personally think Psionics should work in a Dead Magic Zone in Faerun, of course, I'm not sure it would be fair to send a team of Psionisics after an underprepared party, but thats not my call. As far as this discussion, I think everyone has made their points. Under RAW, Psionics do not work, under RAI, they do. There really shouldn't be a dispute, in the PGtF they never explicitly state if Psionics work in the Dead Magic Zones, which means that by RAW through the transparency ruling in the XPH they don't. However it should be noted that all discussions of Psioncs in Faerun state that it's different and, leading by example, Shadow Weave magic does work. Thus RAI states, it does work.
Doesn't Shadow Weave magic have its own dead zones though?

peacenlove
2010-07-24, 05:29 PM
Doesn't Shadow Weave magic have its own dead zones though?

Not yet (but its possible). Shar is very careful to whom she entrusts her weave unlike Mystra (see Karsus incident and many others). Also her Shadow weave was unaffected by the Time of troubles. However in champions of Valor there is a spell that creates temporarily a Shadow weave dead zone.

Also an old mind's eye article expanded on Sub psionics which were a copy-paste of the Shadow weave magic feat line and were treated as Shadow weave spells. Sadly i do not remember details.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-24, 05:32 PM
To be more clear on the first part of what Peacenlove said, Shar can create such zones, however typically she does so to contain the powers of one individual, not to create actual areas where her brand of magic doesn't function. It is obviously within her capabilities however.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-24, 05:40 PM
To be more clear on the first part of what Peacenlove said, Shar can create such zones, however typically she does so to contain the powers of one individual, not to create actual areas where her brand of magic doesn't function. It is obviously within her capabilities however.

So, if the Weave can have holes, and the Shadow Weave can have hole, then why can't you have psychic holes? They don't necessarily have to line up (but they certainly might).

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-24, 05:43 PM
Psionic Transparency says psionic effects are also magical effects. It includes the line "Dead magic is also Dead psionics".

It just makes sense that psionics, in Faerun, also tap from the Weave.
Except that psionics in faerun don't tap the weave. The don't tap it or its sister the shadow weave.


FRCS says they are identical, minus the Shadow Weave bit.

By RAW, psionics are no exception.
As I said in the beginning, making that exception is an acceptable houserule. There is nothing wrong with making houserules.

Psionics wasn't written into 3rd edition when that passage was written not even the MAD 3.0 psionic rules. We can't blame the passage for not mentioning an exception for something that didn't exist at the time.

What we can do is look at the why, shadow weave users are an exception because they won't draw upon the weave.

Can you at least agree that it is logical to conclude that a psionic creature[or any entity] would not be effected by disruptions in the weave if it doesn't draw upon the weave for power.


So, if the Weave can have holes, and the Shadow Weave can have hole, then why can't you have psychic holes? They don't necessarily have to line up (but they certainly might).

A dead weave zone represents damage the weave has taken, such as the death of a god or destruction of an artifact.

The weave has holes, the shadow weave does not, it hasn't damaged because so very few people dare to use it there hasn't been a catastrophic shadow magic event yet to cause such damage. Though Shar could create a hole if she wanted to the big question would be why? [except to punish someone]

A whole in the weave/shadow weave represents an area where it doesn't exist and thus powers drawing from the weave have nothing to manipulate to make the effects.

In faerun it is described that psionic creatures tap into their own inner reserve of power and generate their own weave. A psychic hole would be kind of difficult.

Optimystik
2010-07-24, 05:46 PM
So, if the Weave can have holes, and the Shadow Weave can have hole, then why can't you have psychic holes? They don't necessarily have to line up (but they certainly might).

Well, you can't because each psionic creature is its own weave - therefore you would need some kind of 'hole' in the creature itself.

Honestly, we could drop this whole argument if not for that line in the XPH. I don't see why dead magic should turn off my innate mental powers, yet it does. And because nowhere in the game distinguishes between "Faerun dead magic" and "regular dead magic" - they are treated identically.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-24, 05:49 PM
Well, you can't because each psionic creature is its own weave - therefore you would need some kind of 'hole' in the creature itself.

Like, say, an antimagic ray, feeblemind, or touch of idiocy?

Optimystik
2010-07-24, 05:51 PM
Like, say, an antimagic ray, feeblemind, or touch of idiocy?

Yes, actually. Which shows how foolish the entire "weave" system is, in my opinion, but then I've stopped paying attention to 3.x Faerun for a long time now.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-24, 05:51 PM
So, if the Weave can have holes, and the Shadow Weave can have hole, then why can't you have psychic holes? They don't necessarily have to line up (but they certainly might).

Theoretically speaking sure, anythings possible, but as is stated above, Psionic characters aren't governed by any weave at all in a traditional sense. They utilize their own mind to create pseudo-weave to draw their powers from, its not an "all"-permeating thing along the world as the Standard or Shadow Weaves are, they are certainly a collective, however they are governed by each individual person, and there aren't any rules defining it as that, thats an extrapolation. Strictly speaking they create their own personal "weave" within themselves, with which they draw their powers from, there is no interaction with the standard or Shadow Weaves.

Edit:




Like, say, an antimagic ray, feeblemind, or touch of idiocy?


Yes, actually. Which shows how foolish the entire "weave" system is, in my opinion, but then I've stopped paying attention to 3.x Faerun for a long time now.

First, those work based on the transparency principle, not any true means of creating a dead zone of any real value, if there is indeed a value to one. (Defending a non-magical settlement perhaps?)

Second I actually like the idea of the weave system, I don't plan on using it unless I am in Faerun or create my own world however. Obviously there are issues with it, like non-explicitly made distinctions between planar traits and Realm traits, and Psionics vs. Magic vs. Shadow Magic.

Optimystik
2010-07-24, 05:54 PM
Strictly speaking they create their own personal "weave" within themselves, with which they draw their powers from, there is no interaction with the standard or Shadow Weaves.

Except, as Fax pointed out, they're as vulnerable to AMFs and dispels as any mage. It's ridiculous.

peacenlove
2010-07-24, 05:55 PM
So, if the Weave can have holes, and the Shadow Weave can have hole, then why can't you have psychic holes? They don't necessarily have to line up (but they certainly might).

In Faerun there can be dead magic zones that affect all 3 magic types (for example a planar breach to a dead magic plane) independent of any god's actions. Also there is no god governing psionics anymore (they grant their power themselves) so they can safely ignore the weave and the shadow weave but not regular dead magic areas.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-24, 05:58 PM
Except, as Fax pointed out, they're as vulnerable to AMFs and dispels as any mage. It's ridiculous.

I edited this into my last post as you were posting, as I missed those posts as I was posting that. (Forums can be tough :P):

First, those work based on the transparency principle, not any true means of creating a dead zone of any real value, if there is indeed a value to one. (Defending a non-magical settlement perhaps?)

I'll add it is a touch absurd, but hey, there are three different systems of what is ostensibly just Magic but with some fancy fluff in play here, what more do you expect?

As to this:
In Faerun there can be dead magic zones that affect all 3 magic types (for example a planar breach to a dead magic plane) independent of any god's actions. Also there is no god governing psionics anymore (they grant their power themselves) so they can safely ignore the weave and the shadow weave but not regular dead magic areas.

That is certainly a possibility, and totally useable for a game in conjunction with the standard Faerunian Magic Dead Zones.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-24, 06:11 PM
Except, as Fax pointed out, they're as vulnerable to AMFs and dispels as any mage. It's ridiculous.

Not so, first shadow weave users and regular weave users get to dispel one another and such, yet aren't effected by damages in each others source of power. Adding a third source doesn't have to change a thing.

An antimagic field doesn't create a hole in the weave it simply surprises any manipulation, which is slightly different then dead magic but only meaningful in faerun or another weave system.

In faerun this means a mage can't manipulate the shadow weave or the regular weave and for a psion it means he can't manipulate the weaves he generates because the AMF field us suppressing the effects rather then a lack of magic.

You can also easily apply this to dispeling, the dispel restores the weave to its normal state, Spell/Power Resistance resists weave manipulations.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-24, 06:23 PM
You could also take the vein that dead magic areas are areas where weaves are unable to form. Shadow weaves, again, have their own dead magic areas, as do psionics.

A dead magic zone, then, can be a zone where no weave is able to function.

Taking this a step further, one can say that these zones are intrinsically inimical to weaves (magic, psionic, or otherwise): as such, no weave-based ability is able to function. Antimagic field, null psionic zone, antimagic ray and similar create temporary emulations of such a weave-free zone, but they are poor imitations as they are themselves weave-based.

tl;dr I can explain things with fluff too

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-24, 06:29 PM
You could also take the vein that dead magic areas are areas where weaves are unable to form. Shadow weaves, again, have their own dead magic areas, as do psionics.

A dead magic zone, then, can be a zone where no weave is able to function.

Taking this a step further, one can say that these zones are intrinsically inimical to weaves (magic, psionic, or otherwise): as such, no weave-based ability is able to function. Antimagic field, null psionic zone, antimagic ray and similar create temporary emulations of such a weave-free zone, but they are poor imitations as they are themselves weave-based.

tl;dr I can explain things with fluff too

Except now, your just making things up to explain RAW, which isn't even correct, because Shadow Magic works in a dead magic zone. Meaning, you know, none of that makes sense.

Optimystik
2010-07-24, 06:32 PM
Except now, your just making things up to explain RAW, which isn't even correct, because Shadow Magic works in a dead magic zone. Meaning, you know, none of that makes sense.

Neither does the actual RAW, nor the houserule. The fault lies with the fluff behind the Weave to begin with.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-24, 06:39 PM
Neither does the actual RAW, nor the houserule. The fault lies with the fluff behind the Weave to begin with.

This is true, but the fact that Shadow Magic works in a dead magic zone is fact, its indisputable, it's stated explicitly.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-24, 06:43 PM
Neither does the actual RAW, nor the houserule. The fault lies with the fluff behind the Weave to begin with.

The fluff is fine, you manipulate weave and generate magic effects. Thats the short of it. The problem lies in calling a "dead magic zone" dead magic when it really is a disruption in the weave.
If they called it a "dead weave magic zone" it be a more accurate title and wouldn't create confusion if someone doesn't draw from the weave.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-24, 06:50 PM
Except now, your just making things up to explain RAW, which isn't even correct, because Shadow Magic works in a dead magic zone. Meaning, you know, none of that makes sense.

Why yes, yes it does. Except for a shadow weave dead magic zone, which I explicitly delineated as a possibility.


Shadow weaves, again, have their own dead magic areas, as do psionics.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-24, 07:13 PM
Why yes, yes it does. Except for a shadow weave dead magic zone, which I explicitly delineated as a possibility.

While a shadow weave dead magic zone is a possibility none actually exist in the forgotten realms.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-24, 07:15 PM
While a shadow weave dead magic zone is a possibility none actually exist in the forgotten realms.

...unless Shar wills it.

...which you yourself said.


The weave has holes, the shadow weave does not, it hasn't damaged because so very few people dare to use it there hasn't been a catastrophic shadow magic event yet to cause such damage. Though Shar could create a hole if she wanted to the big question would be why? [except to punish someone]
The fact that it does not exist does not mean it cannot exist, which is explicitly the point I was trying to make.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-24, 07:30 PM
...unless Shar wills it.

...which you yourself said.


The fact that it does not exist does not mean it cannot exist, which is explicitly the point I was trying to make.

Yes but she'd have no real reason to make such a zone. If you wield shadow magic and piss of Shar she can simply cut you off from the shadow weave without damaging it. The fact they don't exist is still very important, until one exists a dead shadow weave zone exists only in theory.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-24, 07:33 PM
I didn't mean to insult you, merely show my confusion, allow me to explain.

I noted your distinction in this statement:


You could also take the vein that dead magic areas are areas where weaves are unable to form. Shadow weaves, again, have their own dead magic areas, as do psionics.

However, I'd like to point out that in your next two paragraphs you seemed to ignore the distinction you just made:


A dead magic zone, then, can be a zone where no weave is able to function.

Taking this a step further, one can say that these zones are intrinsically inimical to weaves (magic, psionic, or otherwise): as such, no weave-based ability is able to function. Antimagic field, null psionic zone, antimagic ray and similar create temporary emulations of such a weave-free zone, but they are poor imitations as they are themselves weave-based.

tl;dr I can explain things with fluff too

Perhaps you were referring to the planar trait/or the whole in reality that leads to a plane with said planar trait? This would explain everything, however I assumed we were talking about the Faerun Dead Magic Zones, as it's what this thread was about, and you didn't mention referring to the SRD version.

Edit: In reference to the Shadow Weave Dead Zones, it's never stated she can create such a zone, its assumed along with her ability to either remove someone from it, or silence it entirely, she can also create a zone similar to the Weave's Dead Magic Zones.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 07:33 PM
Yes but she'd have no real reason to make such a zone. If you wield shadow magic and piss of Shar she can simply cut you off from the shadow weave without damaging it. The fact they don't exist is still very important, until one exists a dead shadow weave zone exists only in theory.

I do believe that, with the purpose of demonstrating the lockability of the magic, plus revealing just how asspulled the system is, dead Shadoweave areas being able to exist is much more relevant than the fact there isn't any around.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-24, 07:33 PM
Yes but she'd have no real reason to make such a zone. If you wield shadow magic and piss of Shar she can simply cut you off from the shadow weave without damaging it. The fact they don't exist is still very important, until one exists a dead shadow weave zone exists only in theory.

...you don't call being cut off from the shadow weave a very small, specific dead shadow magic zone?

Perhaps you were referring to the planar trait/or the whole in reality that leads to a plane with said planar trait? This would explain everything, however I assumed we were talking about the Faerun Dead Magic Zones, as it's what this thread was about, and you didn't mention referring to the SRD version.

I was referring to a theoretical "no-weave-zone", operating under the assumption that psions 'made their own weave'. If there is a zone in which weaves are unable to exist, psions would not be immune.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-24, 07:37 PM
I was referring to a theoretical "no-weave-zone", operating under the assumption that psions 'made their own weave'. If there is a zone in which weaves are unable to exist, psions would not be immune.

I don't disagree with you there, I was not aware you were trying to contain that thought and thus, was confused as to the point you were trying to make. Also I'd like to reiterate my edit that it looks like was missed once again (Maybe I shouldn't both editing :P)

In reference to the Shadow Weave Dead Zones, it's never stated she can create such a zone, its assumed along with her ability to either remove someone from it, or silence it entirely, she can also create a zone similar to the Weave's Dead Magic Zones.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-24, 07:46 PM
I don't disagree with you there, I was not aware you were trying to contain that thought and thus, was confused as to the point you were trying to make. Also I'd like to reiterate my edit that it looks like was missed once again (Maybe I shouldn't both editing :P)

In reference to the Shadow Weave Dead Zones, it's never stated she can create such a zone, its assumed along with her ability to either remove someone from it, or silence it entirely, she can also create a zone similar to the Weave's Dead Magic Zones.

Yeah, it's not directly stated, but it's Shar. She has the shadow weave wrapped tighter than...I cannot think of a comparison for tightness that is suitable for these forums, so we'll just leave it as "very tightly"--around her little finger.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-24, 07:50 PM
Yeah, it's not directly stated, but it's Shar. She has the shadow weave wrapped tighter than...I cannot think of a comparison for tightness that is suitable for these forums, so we'll just leave it as "very tightly"--around her little finger.

Yeah, I just figured since we were dealing with RAW vs. RAI issues I should be specific, I don't doubt she could wrap the whole thing around her so only she could access it if needed....or wanted......or vaguely considered.

Optimystik
2010-07-24, 08:49 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the only logical explanation is to go full-bore. Either psionics follow the same rules as magic (including ability to be cut off) - or Psionics Are Different, and they aren't.

I'm fine with psionics ignoring dead magic, but making them different in that one aspect while subjecting them to detection/dispels/AMFs is counterintuitive. It also requires either flat-out ignoring the XPH, or developing a second flavor of dead magic when the setting itself makes no such distinction.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-24, 09:20 PM
So who does govern psionics in Forgotten Realms anyways? The place has a god for absolutely everything, it must have a god of psions.

Optimystik
2010-07-24, 09:59 PM
So who does govern psionics in Forgotten Realms anyways? The place has a god for absolutely everything, it must have a god of psions.

No deity truly "governs it," in the sense that they can deny a psion his powers. However, there are deities with psionics portfolios, that offer the Mind and Mentalism domains - their followers tend toward spells that interact with psionics, like Psychic Turmoil. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/psychicTurmoil.htm)

On the evil side, I can think of Deep Duerra and Ilsensine... I can't recall any of the good ones.

Alejandro
2010-07-24, 11:25 PM
Wow. I left for the day and came back to a giant argument over the Weave, Shadow Weave, Psionics Weave, Hair Weave, and Shar being angry at shadow psionic weave breaker casters.

The adventure book we are playing in is called Anauroch: The Empire of Shade, a WOTC Forgotten Realms campaign module. In this book (here I am quoting my DM) it specifically says that psionics work in a dead magic zone (in Faerun.) Player's Guide to Faerun says the same thing. The giant dead magic zone we are in is all of Anauroch, and created by followers of Shar. So, that means only Weave magic is blocked. Shadow Weave magic still works.

Psionics also still work, because they do not draw on the Weave (or the Shadow Weave, for that matter.) My GM (who is also unfamiliar with psionics) has told me that she is using the transparency rule some of you have discussed, IE, if you have spell resistance, it can block a psionic attack, etc. So, my ring of mind shielding can, in fact, protect me from whatever psionic attack that specifically goes after reading my thoughts, etc, might happen. I also have a shadow weave ring of freedom of movement, which would protect me from a psionic power that tries to restrict my motion in any way. I am aware there are lots of psionic powers that cannot be blocked with these items, so, if we encounter a hostile psionicist, I am just going to try and snuff them as quickly as possible before they mindrape me (not the spell.)