[3.5] Attempted Magic Fix, Collaboration Wanted

[Warclam]

For a while now, the imbalanced nature of 3.5 magic has bothered me. On the other hand, I'd hate to just rip it out and put something else in its place if I can think of something better.

The other day I ran across this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105276) thread, which contains a suggestion I like very much:


Save or Suck Nerf
If a character is hit by a debilitating effect and (s)he still has more than 50% of his/her maximum Hit point total left (s)he can instead choose to take 1d4 per caster level damage, representing absorbing and dulling the magic by force

(My working definition of a "debilitating effect" has been any spell or spell-like ability that causes any effect other than hit point damage.)

However, this still leaves some problems:
—This does not adjust for spell level. Against a still-strong opponent, hold person is just as damaging as finger of death.
—What about illusions? You shouldn't be able to disbelieve any illusion you pass simply by taking some damage.
—disintegrate.

Even if this were perfected, it only solves some of the problems of magic. There still exists, taken from the linked thread (more details in OP there), these problems:
—Overpowered buffs.
—Utility Overkill. (though personally I don't mind this as much)
—Overpowered summons.
—15 Minute Workday.
—Overpowered mobility effects.

The_Glyphstone suggested I take this to Homebrew, so I did. Any ideas?

[Jack_Simth]

For a while now, the imbalanced nature of 3.5 magic has bothered me. On the other hand, I'd hate to just rip it out and put something else in its place if I can think of something better.

The other day I ran across this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105276) thread, which contains a suggestion I like very much:



(My working definition of a "debilitating effect" has been any spell or spell-like ability that causes any effect other than hit point damage.)

However, this still leaves some problems:
—This does not adjust for spell level. Against a still-strong opponent, hold person is just as damaging as finger of death.

Simple solution: Change it to 2d4 per spell level. If your opponent is throwing a high-level effect at you, it matches up almost exactly with having it based on caster level (for the Full Casters, anyway). Otherwise,


—What about illusions? You shouldn't be able to disbelieve any illusion you pass simply by taking some damage.
Again, simple solution:
You have to be directly impacted by the effect to absorb it. So if you walk into a Wall of Force, you can break it, but if you don't, it just sits there. Likewise, if there's an Illusory Wall about, you have to touch where it would be to get rid of it in that manner.


—disintegrate.

Is a direct-damage spell, requiring a touch attack, a save, and just deals HP damage. Sure, it's a LOT of HP damage, but it's still HP damage.


Even if this were perfected, it only solves some of the problems of magic. There still exists, taken from the linked thread (more details in OP there), these problems:
—Overpowered buffs.

Get rid of the personal range spells that affect combat statistics (So the Personal-only Shapechange is out, but touch-range Polymorph remains). That will... actually take care of almost all of it, really.

Alternately, allow someone to use their ability to burn spells with HP as a touch attack. You touch the mage, you can burn through the spells on him, stripping him of his buffs (and touching the illusion counts for the spell that foiled the touch - so bye-bye Mirror Image... but you'll need to touch again for the Mage Armor, Shield, and other spells that are still on him....)


—Utility Overkill. (though personally I don't mind this as much)

Meh. The Wizard wants to use Spider Climb to get out of range? If that's the worst thing he's doing, let him.


—Overpowered summons.Ah... Summons usually aren't worth the time, unless you invest in them fairly heavily.

—15 Minute Workday.
Time-sensitive missions.


—Overpowered mobility effects.

Slings.


The_Glyphstone suggested I take this to Homebrew, so I did. Any ideas?
A few.

[Top_Hat]

Maybe you could set up a sliding scale for when hitpoints can be used to dull the effects of magic. For example, a first level save or suck could be dulled if the opponent has 10% of their health, but a ninth level spell would not be able to be dulled unless the target had atleast 90% of their health. This makes the high level spells retain much of their awesome, while making Sleep and company almost useless. This setup would also play well with Heighten Spell, as it gives more reason to want a higher level spell.

As to your other points, I feel buffs are fine because they make the entire party feel useful. Summons are more a problem because they slow play down when one person has to direct his own character as well as 3 celestial dogs or whatever.

[Warclam]

Thanks for your responses!


Simple solution: Change it to 2d4 per spell level. If your opponent is throwing a high-level effect at you, it matches up almost exactly with having it based on caster level (for the Full Casters, anyway).

Ah, excellent. I was considering 1d4/spell level + caster level, but I think I like the simpler version better. It's a bit harsh for psions though, since augmenting is so important.


You have to be directly impacted by the effect to absorb it. So if you walk into a Wall of Force, you can break it, but if you don't, it just sits there. Likewise, if there's an Illusory Wall about, you have to touch where it would be to get rid of it in that manner.

I agree, but the problem is the same thing applies to saving throws. I just feel that it's odd that if you fail a save against an illusion, you can spend HP to break it even though you're convinced it's real.


[disintegrate] Is a direct-damage spell, requiring a touch attack, a save, and just deals HP damage. Sure, it's a LOT of HP damage, but it's still HP damage.

That's exactly the problem. You can't break it, but it deals really devastating amounts of damage. Maybe I'm just being paranoid here, though.


Get rid of the personal range spells that affect combat statistics (So the Personal-only Shapechange is out, but touch-range Polymorph remains). That will... actually take care of almost all of it, really.

Oh, I'm getting rid of polymorph too :smallamused:. But yeah, just make it so the buffs go to the actual fighty types, so they're better at doing what they're meant to do... sounds good.



Alternately, allow someone to use their ability to burn spells with HP as a touch attack. You touch the mage, you can burn through the spells on him, stripping him of his buffs (and touching the illusion counts for the spell that foiled the touch - so bye-bye Mirror Image... but you'll need to touch again for the Mage Armor, Shield, and other spells that are still on him....)

This is absolutely brilliant. I definitely like spell-breaking as an offensive tool as well as defensive. This could also be used as a defense against summons: touch them and you can burn them away. Maybe limit casters to one spell's worth of summons at a time for simplicity; this also addresses Top Hat's point about summons. Otherwise, yeah, probably not a huge problem.

Time-sensitive missions work well against the 15-minute adventuring day, but they can sometimes be hard to enforce. I think the daily nature of spell slots/power points is at the root of the problem, but I can't think of a way to fix that.


Maybe you could set up a sliding scale for when hitpoints can be used to dull the effects of magic. For example, a first level save or suck could be dulled if the opponent has 10% of their health, but a ninth level spell would not be able to be dulled unless the target had atleast 90% of their health. This makes the high level spells retain much of their awesome, while making Sleep and company almost useless. This setup would also play well with Heighten Spell, as it gives more reason to want a higher level spell.

I'm inclined to think that's a little backward, actually. The power word spells have an HP limit, but the limit is lower the more powerful the spell is. High-level spells already have the advantage of being more powerful, or dealing more damage against a spell-breaking opponent.

I agree with you about buffs though, as long as they're used for the other members of the party. Excessive prep-time could still be bad, though... Maybe a maximum buff limit of spell level/HD, to keep from stacking them indefinitely?