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meolmir1
2010-07-24, 02:33 PM
heyo Im a wizard 11th lvl conj spec. barred necro/ abjur with a plus 4 lvl adjustment (krynn setting) and have just been given a chance to recieve two wish or miracle spells cast for me by the ruling class of pilanthis:smallbiggrin: the big thing on my 'wish list' is to have my lvl adjustment obliterated but im not sure how i would phrase that in game cuz im pretty sure 'level adjustment' isnt an applicable term lol. the second wish is undecided yet (suggestions are accepted). thnx 4 any help

Zovc
2010-07-24, 02:35 PM
You probably won't want to use the term "obliterated" in any wish remotely related to yourself. :smallwink:

Optimystik
2010-07-24, 02:49 PM
Given that LA is a metagame concept, I can't see any way to phrase that without opening the door to DM-smiting.

Where is the LA coming from, a race or template? You could wish to be changed into something without one if so.

Douglas
2010-07-24, 02:51 PM
Trying to come up with in-game phrasing to spring on your DM for something like this is just asking for trouble. Ask your DM out of game what he thinks about the idea. If he's agreeable, he'll probably just handwave the wording and say it works. If he's not, don't bother trying, whatever you come up with will almost certainly go horribly wrong.

Defiant
2010-07-24, 03:02 PM
Agreed, it's always best to talk with your DM. Mine has clearly said that any wishes too powerful have a strong chance of having certain drawbacks, such as curses or misinterpretation. But he's totally fine with me asking him "would this be alright for a wish", and so on.

Mnemnosyne
2010-07-24, 03:23 PM
Agreed, it's always best to talk with your DM. Mine has clearly said that any wishes too powerful have a strong chance of having certain drawbacks, such as curses or misinterpretation. But he's totally fine with me asking him "would this be alright for a wish", and so on.
My favored solution to this is to write them out, go over them repeatedly, get friends to go over them, and consider them from every angle I can possibly think of until there is no possible misconception or misinterpretation, even if it requires going as far as defining exactly which dictionary definitions of each word in the wish you mean.

As a DM, I consider that any player that can word a wish I can't figure out how to twist no matter how much effort I put into it deserves exactly what they want, so I give it to them.

On the other hand, if I'm a player doing this and the DM actually finds something I missed, well...fair enough. That's the risk of using a Wish.

Note: I don't use wishes very often.

Evard
2010-07-24, 03:34 PM
You probably won't want to use the term "obliterated" in any wish remotely related to yourself. :smallwink:

May I put that in my sig?? That is rule number one when making a wish spell haha

Votes for:
Ask the DM out of game if you can wish for that and how you should phrase it... This will let you know that he/she wont destroy you or twist it in some way

Morquard
2010-07-24, 03:45 PM
Votes for:
Ask the DM out of game if you can wish for that and how you should phrase it... This will let you know that he/she wont destroy you or twist it in some way
If the answer is anything along the lines of "I don't know, but try it and we'll see" and he has an evil and megalomaniac smirk all over his face ... better forget the idea really fast.

Evard
2010-07-24, 03:53 PM
My player once asked if he could wish for "x" and didn't take that hint hahaha

Zovc
2010-07-24, 04:16 PM
May I put that in my sig?? That is rule number one when making a wish spell haha

Be my guest. I am honored.

Fable Wright
2010-07-24, 04:31 PM
One comment: you could talk to your DM, and then your levels become converted to LA buyoff. The wish would convert some of your skill and life force into the creature/template you want to become, and this would be a non-gamebreaking way to do so.

Defiant
2010-07-24, 04:31 PM
My favored solution to this is to write them out, go over them repeatedly, get friends to go over them, and consider them from every angle I can possibly think of until there is no possible misconception or misinterpretation, even if it requires going as far as defining exactly which dictionary definitions of each word in the wish you mean.

As a DM, I consider that any player that can word a wish I can't figure out how to twist no matter how much effort I put into it deserves exactly what they want, so I give it to them.

On the other hand, if I'm a player doing this and the DM actually finds something I missed, well...fair enough. That's the risk of using a Wish.

Note: I don't use wishes very often.

I see. I still wouldn't do it:


You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Your careful wording may only avoid any ill effects, but wouldn't give you any more than you would get had you just asked "is this too powerful for a wish?".

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-24, 06:08 PM
You sound like you want to move off into the "more powerful effects" section of wish. What you can get away with is completely up to your DM. I personaly would ask for them as scrolls and wait untill I really need to move the BBEG from his base to mine without any of his backup. Just get a level 14 factutum to read the scroll useing cunning breach to avoid SR problems. It becomes a save or be teleported from / to anywhere spell.

Other than that, if you really want to get over the LA of your character, then ask your DM, and if he is uncomfortable with just wipeing it out see if he will lessen it.

I could see a phraseing "I wish to learn quickly despite my natural talent." That should allow you to drop that LA if your DM want's to play ball.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-07-24, 09:19 PM
"All other things being equal, I only wish for my LA, reduced by" x. You can even add "leaving me with my previous class levels of:" blah blah

The only way that could go wrong is if one the 'all other things equal' part were ignored. In that case, I'm not sure this qualifies as the wish being granted.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-24, 09:23 PM
The problem comes from the character having to phrase the wish, not the player. The player wants to change the characters LA, but the character can't use direct terms for abstractions. That leaves you having to leave yourself open to a DM messing with you in a bad way.

Feel him out and ask him if these wishes are going to do what you want them to or not. If he is going to use them to mess with you, then he will no mater what you actualy wish for. See if this is an actual reward or a test of greed (to punish those who overreach)

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 09:24 PM
Yeah it's probably better to settle off-character with the dm and then just wish for more power. Poof, LA gone.

unimaginable
2010-07-24, 10:17 PM
Yeah, "more power" sounds about right. Assuming there's nothing you aren't telling us that'd make it gamebreaking, I, as a DM, would be fine with that if you asked me.

Hawriel
2010-07-24, 10:51 PM
You would wish to have your level adjustment fixed, alterd removied? Hmm as DM three things just came to mind befor I read your thrid centance.

1) Your sence of balance is now gone. Your dex is now 4.

2) A small class tube filled with water with a bubble is smacked into your forhead, hands, feet, and breatbone. It feels as if you've been hit by six hammers.

3) Your left testical has just droped to your ankles. When you glance down in horror you see a three foot wooden board with a black line in the center. The board is also marked in precise even spaces. Each mark is numbered from the center.

Defiant
2010-07-24, 11:44 PM
I would like to add that Wish costs XP, so it would be absurd to have it do something that effectively gives you XP.

tyckspoon
2010-07-25, 12:04 AM
I would like to add that Wish costs XP, so it would be absurd to have it do something that effectively gives you XP.

If you were casting it yourself, yeah, that'd be pretty silly. If somebody else is casting it on your behalf, or its coming from an item, or you're using the 'ask for greater effects' option of a Miracle? It's perfectly sensible. Somebody else sacrifices 5k xp or intercedes with their god for you, you get 5k worth of new powers. A pair of Wishes ought to be good for knocking off at least one LA, if they're hard-cast (that is, somebody actually pays the XP for them or gets some god to let a couple Miracles do it. I wouldn't let farmed Efreet-wishes do this.)

Sindri
2010-07-25, 12:44 AM
As the GM of a game containing an 11th level Conjuration specialist with Abjuration and Necromancy as barred schools who has recently acquired a +4 LA template in the Krynn setting, I'd like to ask where you got the idea that a Wish was currently available to you (unless you plan to summon something unpleasant; you know how that turned out last time). If I am mistaken as to your identity, Mr. H. F., I apologize and ask that you disregard the above.

In a more general sense, I'd expect it to be impossible to remove a level adjustment without changing race or removing the template causing it; I have no idea how to phrase a wish to alter a specific entirely out of game concept using only in game terminology. A wish to learn faster might lead to simply encountering higher CR monsters, thereby getting more EXP at the same ECL, or it might mean that you are capable of memorizing twice as much text per day as a normal character. A wish for more knowledge would give you a bonus to some obscure knowledge skill, but no EXP. A wish to cast spells more effectively might (depending on phrasing and the sadistic nature of the GM) halve your spells per day at each level, thus forcing you to use each more efficiently, or require you to apply a metamagic feat to every spell you cast. In general, you should stick to purely in-game effects with a wish, and be careful then.

Ozymandias9
2010-07-25, 12:53 AM
First, I'll echo what was already said and point out that it will be heavily dependent on the DM.


heyo Im a wizard 11th lvl conj spec. barred necro/ abjur with a plus 4 lvl adjustment (krynn setting)

However, what I'm really wondering here is where the LA is coming from.

Krynn-specific possibilities I can think of:
Aurak (8HD, LA4) RHD stack as Sorc levels, so you'd be a Sorc.
Red Dragonspawn (LA4) +1 Sorc Level from LA, so you'd be a Sorc.
Shadowperson (3HD, LA4) Just never seen anyone actually play one.
Disir Queen (5HD, LA 4) The citizens of Palanthis aren't likely to give anything to a disgusting bug lady
Witchlin (LA 4, undead) The citizens of Palanthis aren't likely to give anything to a animated elf skeleton

crazedloon
2010-07-25, 01:17 AM
"ask that all your disadvantages based on your race be removed without effecting your advantages of your race nor effecting that which you have learned."

I am sure it can be twisted but the the above is something you can say in game and if taken to a less extreme nets you a reduction in any negative ability modifiers. Also XP and class levels are granted do to learning (particularly for a wizard) so those should be unaffected

Sindri
2010-07-25, 01:37 AM
"ask that all your disadvantages based on your race be removed without effecting your advantages of your race nor effecting that which you have learned."

I am sure it can be twisted but the the above is something you can say in game and if taken to a less extreme nets you a reduction in any negative ability modifiers. Also XP and class levels are granted do to learning (particularly for a wizard) so those should be unaffected

3 problems here:
1) this is beyond the power of a wish; even applying this to a normal elf would effectively give them a +2 Con, and Wish can only do 1 point of an ability score per casting. That's before you get into the (literally infinite) roleplaying possibilities; suddenly everyone in the cosmos who doesn't like elves either has their opinions changed or sees you as something other than an elf. This includes Deities.

2) the level adjustment is not a disadvantage of the race in game; the rules are simply configured out of game to make more powerful creatures advance more slowly, so the only way to avoid it is to become less powerful.

3) keeping your learning does not always lead to keeping your ability; a mage can remember every aspect of how they once cast a spell, but still be incapable of casting it again. Otherwise, either EXP loss and level drain would cause amnesia or mages would be immune to those effects.

crazedloon
2010-07-25, 02:11 AM
as I said it can be twisted however to answer you problems with the wish I proposed.

1. The wish spell can do more powerful things than the ones listed they just have a chance of failing or blowing up in your face so the it can all still work. And I would say for the roleplaying that they may not like you but they would not be discriminate. Their inborn hatred (should they be racist or the like) only becomes a disadvantage for the character when it causes the other characters to act. So the character can still incur the wrath of a diety who is normally opposed to the characters race simply by action alone the wrath would than have nothing to do with the race. Pretty much all it would do (if you consider racism to be part of the disadvantage and if so than your wish has worked wonders :smallwink:) is put others at neutral to you who might have been worse based on your race.

2. Or perhaps it represents the fact that the race has a harder time adapting and learning new things since it takes so much more XP to learn the same stuff :smallwink: (can't look at it as simply a balancing act)

3. If you are a wizard if you know how to cast it you can cast a spell unless something else is going on such as an anti-magic field or something that only effects you or what have you (which falls into your DM being mean or giving you a plot hook). If you were a wizard or another class with "inborn" power than that is a different animal all together.

arrowhen
2010-07-25, 02:52 AM
If your DM ever offers you a wish, the correct response is to run away screaming and bury your face in your pillow with your hands over your ears, chanting, "La la la la, I can't hear you, I can't hear you!" Not as a character, but as a player. You are utterly screwed.

Aasimar
2010-07-25, 06:42 AM
I think wishing a balancing factor of the game away is never going to work.

Where is the LA coming from? If it's from your race, the best you could hope for is becoming a human or some other non-level adjustment race.

Morquard
2010-07-25, 09:04 AM
What I don't really get is that most DMs seem to look for every possible way they can screw players over with a Wish.
I mean, sure it makes sense if the wish is granted by an evil djinn or something, then its their own fault to wish something.
But if it comes from your own, good god?

And alright, if you're asking for something stupidly overpowered, then I get it too.

But on pretty normal wishes?

Sliver
2010-07-25, 09:37 AM
But if it comes from your own, good god?

Then it's probably a miracle.