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View Full Version : Fireball fluff -- can you intercept the bead?



Fitz10019
2010-07-24, 05:17 PM
The fluff of the fireball spell says a bead shoots from the caster's finger, unless it hits a "material body or solid barrier" along the way, in which case it detonates at that point, instead of at the caster's intended point. On the one hand, the spell is instantaneous, but on the other the fluff is very clear that the bead travels from point A to point B.

Has anyone every exploited this fluff with a readied action to thwart a fireballing foe? Ever send a fire elemental into a blocking position, or shoot an arrow to intercept the bead? Should this work?

Ranos
2010-07-24, 05:19 PM
Does this work by RAW ? No.
Would I allow this as a DM ? Hell yes.

Prodan
2010-07-24, 05:19 PM
It shouldn't be easy, but I guess possible in theory.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-24, 05:22 PM
I think no more need to be said than this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#returnShot).

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 05:29 PM
If you ready an action to create an obstacle for the bead, then sure why not? It says in the description that it will detonate prematurely if it hits something solid.

Ravens_cry
2010-07-24, 05:39 PM
If you ready an action to create an obstacle for the bead, then sure why not? It says in the description that it will detonate prematurely if it hits something solid.
That would mean taking a fireball in the teeth, though.

Lev
2010-07-24, 05:54 PM
That would mean taking a fireball in the teeth, though.

Not necessarily, what if you hit it with your shield bash?

Incoming!

Reflex save? Who needs a reflex save? *whaaaBOOOSH!*

Direct Quote


Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.

You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
Material Component

A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.

I'd count the bead as a projectile shot personally, it's got all the properties of a ranged projectile. The standard homebrew to my knowledge is to allow using a readied action to deflect a projectile by making a touch attack with what you are deflecting it with against the attack roll of the projectile.
As for a fireball, I'm not sure how you would calculate it, but it would probably be 3+castingstat+1d20
Though you COULD deflect or manipulate a fireball bead, once it hits something (possibly just impeding it could set it off), it explodes and would sunder anything you used to deflect it with intense heat-- silver or bronze shields would melt ONTO you and since the spell says it keeps going after it melts or sunders an object it would probably deal full damage to you in addition.

valadil
2010-07-24, 05:55 PM
It can work. I've heard of players trying to shoot a fireball past unknown, invisible enemies only to have the bead strike the invisible foes. That seems legit.

Blocking it intentionally seems weird though. The thing is, you'd have to ready an attack specifically against fireball. I feel like you'd be better off readying against a spell being cast and then hitting the caster to disrupt.

Chrono22
2010-07-24, 05:56 PM
I'd say OK, but it would require a readied or immediate action, and the AC would be for a fine object (18). I already allow ranged maneuvers, so expending wall of blades with a thrown dagger or other held object would work fine.
Yes it makes fireballs weaker. I like that.

true_shinken
2010-07-24, 05:56 PM
Basically means that if you use wings of cover against a fireball, people around you still take damage...

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 06:00 PM
Definitely, but at least you guarantee it'll explode ahead of your cover, and your cover will protect whatever is in the radius your cover blocked. people Immediately behind you would be safe.

balistafreak
2010-07-24, 06:13 PM
Definitely, but at least you guarantee it'll explode ahead of your cover, and your cover will protect whatever is in the radius your cover blocked. people Immediately behind you would be safe.

But wait:



Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

I thought cover/corners didn't protect well against spreads? (They can shorten the radius in certain positions, but hiding behind a small 5-foot section of wall is useless.)

Lev
2010-07-24, 06:14 PM
Would effects like a floating shield of force also provide cover vs the bead then too? There are some spells which automatically try and intercept attacks.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 06:14 PM
Aww damn, I could swear it was a burst. Stupid PHB illustrations.

Well, I'll still hurl stuff at it as a readied action just to spite the casters if I can anyway.


Would effects like a floating shield of force also provide cover vs the bead then too? There are some spells which automatically try and intercept attacks.

No, spreads ignore cover. Bursts and Emanations would be Covered, though.

PId6
2010-07-24, 06:16 PM
Basically means that if you use wings of cover against a fireball, people around you still take damage...
You'll still take damage too, because Fireball's radius acts as a spread, and spreads get around cover.

Bah, ninjas!

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 06:17 PM
You'll still take damage too, because Fireball's radius acts as a spread, and spreads get around cover.

Bah, ninjas!

Ninjas are so 3.0
Swordsages are better.

balistafreak
2010-07-24, 06:18 PM
Well, I'll still hurl stuff at it as a readied action just to spite the casters if I can anyway.

The question is where it gets intercepted, of course:


Right in front of you. (Pointless.)
In the middle somewhere, exploding harmlessly. (Action vs. action and spell. Okay.)
In their face. (Oh yes.)


Somehow I get the feeling that a readied action to cast a Wall of Something Solid right in front of their faces would make a great counterspell.

... actually, seeing as that would block line of effect, it'd basically counter anything.

Fireballs exploding in their faces would be a bonus. :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2010-07-24, 06:27 PM
Somehow I get the feeling that a readied action to cast a Wall of Something Solid right in front of their faces would make a great counterspell.

Wall of force is deliciously invisible. So is resilient/telekinetic sphere.

Lev
2010-07-24, 06:30 PM
Aww damn, I could swear it was a burst. Stupid PHB illustrations.

Well, I'll still hurl stuff at it as a readied action just to spite the casters if I can anyway.



No, spreads ignore cover. Bursts and Emanations would be Covered, though.
Please enlighten me, I make it my business to know a great deal about fire.
Does the fire magically explode then curve around the cover like some sort of sentient gas monster, or does it follow the logic that the expanding fire pushes the cover backwards and down enough that it kind of ramps and jets off the cover causing it to napalm downwards?

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 06:35 PM
Please enlighten me, I make it my business to know a great deal about fire.
Does the fire magically explode then curve around the cover like some sort of sentient gas monster, or does it follow the logic that the expanding fire pushes the cover backwards and down enough that it kind of ramps and jets off the cover causing it to napalm downwards?

Spreads behave like gas: they expand within the reach of the container, rolling around anything that doesn't block off the other side completely. "Container" would be the area of effect, and cover doesn't block line of effect(like a wall greater than the spell's area of effect) so it is ignored.


With burst/emanation spells, cover stops the effect, so the radii behind the cover would be clear. There's no ruling to what happens to the blocked damage so for simplicity's sake we just say it's wasted.

PId6
2010-07-24, 06:36 PM
Somehow I get the feeling that a readied action to cast a Wall of Something Solid right in front of their faces would make a great counterspell.
Better yet, instead of readied action, use the more reliable Synchonicity. If they try to cast Fireball, manifest Wall of Ectoplasm in front of their face. If they try to cast anything else, manifest Energy Missile and blast their face off instead.

Can also be done with more cheese through Celerity or Anticipatory Strike.

balistafreak
2010-07-24, 09:21 PM
Energy Missile? Please, Energy Stun. 2d6 damage is far less potent than a chance to stun. :smalltongue:

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 09:23 PM
Why not go for fortitude and teleport the guy's brain off his head?

PId6
2010-07-24, 09:27 PM
Why not go for fortitude and teleport the guy's brain off his head?
Because if he succeeds on the save, nothing happens. With direct damage, you'll have a very good chance of stopping the spell even if he saves.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-24, 09:31 PM
Hmm, excellent point. Grasping Hand it is for that level then.

arrowhen
2010-07-25, 02:02 AM
Nah, I wouldn't bother messing with it. It's just fireball, for Gawd's sake. It's not like it's an overpowered spell. If anything, because it's such an iconic spell it's probably one of the spells that arcane casters are balanced around.

If someone wanted to really press the issue and prepare a readied action to intercept the "pea", I'd allow an attack roll against it at AC 18 (because it's at least "Fine") + the caster's BAB + Dex mod (since the caster would need to make a ranged touch attack to get the "pea" through a narrow opening, it seems reasonable that they've put that much aim on it) to intercept it -- at the closest possible point to the interceptor.

Gralamin
2010-07-25, 03:33 AM
About two years ago, this same question came up. Due to the "Striking Solid matter" part, it would only be logical that, yes, it can be intercepted.

First, you must make a DC 18 Spellcraft check to identify the spell being cast is Fireball (Unless a skill trick is being used, or certain metamagic feats such as Silent and still). Then you must have already had a readied action to attack the bead, or move into its range.

Moving into the range is simple: You move in front, and hope he was aiming in that direction.

Attacking is a bit harder: Its a Fine sized object ("Peasized"), without any Dexterity score, etc. This means its AC is calculated as: 10 +8 (size) +0 (Ability Bonus) = 18. However, due to how the readied actions work (They interrupt the action - including the beads movement), this will allow you to choose a square in its path to blow up in, depending on your readied trigger.

Moreover, it can be fired from anywhere between 600 to 2400 ft away - which you should be attacking from if you are using fireball. In which case you need to make a Spot check at a -60 to -240 modifier to even spot the wizard firing it.

Good luck.

Thespianus
2010-07-25, 04:14 AM
What about ... *drumroll* ... Prestidigitation, this King of Cantrips? :smallsmile:

If you have Prestidigitation cast on yourself, you can move small objects without touching them. Granted, the radius is 10 ft, so it might be of limited use in this case. :smallwink:

Gralamin
2010-07-25, 04:27 AM
What about ... *drumroll* ... Prestidigitation, this King of Cantrips? :smallsmile:

If you have Prestidigitation cast on yourself, you can move small objects without touching them. Granted, the radius is 10 ft, so it might be of limited use in this case. :smallwink:

You would have to ready an action to move it. And if your that close, you will still be in the blast range. Not very useful :smalltongue:

FelixG
2010-07-25, 04:39 AM
Moreover, it can be fired from anywhere between 600 to 2400 ft away - which you should be attacking from if you are using fireball. In which case you need to make a Spot check at a -60 to -240 modifier to even spot the wizard firing it.

Good luck.

most combat takes place alot closer than that, so if a sniper is going after you, yes your pretty screwed :P

and as a general rule unless the person or item is specifically hiding you dont need to spot them, you can just see em. Look up trying to spot the sun for reference :P

Gralamin
2010-07-25, 04:46 AM
most combat takes place alot closer than that, so if a sniper is going after you, yes your pretty screwed :P

and as a general rule unless the person or item is specifically hiding you dont need to spot them, you can just see em. Look up trying to spot the sun for reference :P

If you are using a Fireball at close range, you aren't using it right :smallbiggrin:

And, unlike the Sun, someone that far away would probably count under the "Difficult to see" clause of the spot skill.

Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

FelixG
2010-07-25, 04:49 AM
Well its good for one surprise attack at least,

And a person speaking in loud clear words waving his arms around (auditory and somatic components of the spell :P) wouldn't quite qualify as hard to see at 600 feet, maybe at half a mile he would but i dont think 600 feet he would be hard to spot :P

Cespenar
2010-07-25, 04:57 AM
Ready an action to catch the bead with a Bag of Holding.

Thespianus
2010-07-25, 05:08 AM
You would have to ready an action to move it. And if your that close, you will still be in the blast range. Not very useful :smalltongue:

Have your familiar swallow swallow it, then. Improved Evasion will help! ;)

Fitz10019
2010-07-25, 05:08 AM
OP here. While disrupting the caster seems like a cleaner approach, the situation that raised the question for us was a wand of fireball. The group has to re-attempt the assault a day later, so the fireball wand is a known hazard.

Having one person intercept the bead to explode right in front of himself (or as Raven's Cry calls it more colorfully, "taking it in the teeth") is not necessarily pointless for the party. It may at least de-optimized the detonation point and spare other party members from a blast that would have included the intercepter anyway. Also consider the resource advantage of casting Resist Energy(etc.) once instead of 6 times.

Prestidigitation itself wouldn't qualify as a solid barrier. Maybe you could use it to hold an object, and that object intercepts the bead, but you're making it more difficult than someone throwing a physical barrier. It would be hilarious to Prestidigitation a door or window shutter closed at the right moment.

As for the huge Spot difficulty for a tiny object far away -- that only applies to the grand goal of detonating the fireball in the caster's (wand-wielder's) face. Intercepting the bead 30 feet away (just beyond the blast's radius) is the original goal. Is there a Spot modifier based on speed? Using real world physics, the 2400ft fireball bead is travelling faster than the 600ft one.

I wonder if a thrown object is the only way to do this. A readied action should be an action, or a movement, and readying move-to-intercept-and-then-attack-beadsized-object is just too complicated. Or should putting your chest/shield in front of a moving object only be a move action?

It should also be noted that anything thrown for this purpose would count as an unattended object during the detonation and take the fire damage without a Reflex Save.

taltamir
2010-07-25, 05:27 AM
a bullet also travels from point A to point B... a laser beam as well.
just because it travels doesn't mean its interceptable.

Fitz10019
2010-07-25, 06:14 AM
a bullet also travels from point A to point B... a laser beam as well. just because it travels doesn't mean its interceptable.

Actually, it does.

Moogleking
2010-07-25, 06:27 AM
Readied Telekinesis, maybe :smalltongue:?

Snake-Aes
2010-07-25, 07:03 AM
I see a few ways to intercept the 'bullet', all depending on a readied action and that you see the caster casting.

1)cast a cover effect on the bullet's path
2)be the cover yourself
3)cast a cover effect on caster's face (hi wall of stone and interposing hand!)
4)resisted attack roll. There's no rule for this one but I'd do an opposed check against, say, the caster's bab+dex+18. The thing's weaker than an eggshell.

Evard
2010-07-25, 08:58 AM
didnt read everything buuut... Ready an action as a druid or wizar/sorcerer and counter the spell by saying "when the mage shoots a bead out of his finger I summon monster/nature's ally right in front of him....

*wizard shoots* then an elephant or badger or something else appears and BOOM, there goes your summon and the wizard... Hmm I should make a build around this idea... hmmm

lesser_minion
2010-07-25, 09:04 AM
I was under the impression that it was an RTA to skip a fireball around or through cover. So while you can try this, I'm not convinced it would work (being able to do so automatically would be ridiculous).

IIRC, cover still grants you a bonus (to your save).

Total cover is still an absolute defence as well (provided it applies in all directions, since the fireball can get around corners).

Evard
2010-07-25, 10:49 AM
Actually, it does.

yep, specially in a setting that has magic lol

Caphi
2010-07-25, 10:56 AM
yep, specially in a setting that has magic lol

I'm really quite fascinated by the school of thought that makes the leap from "spellcasting" to "whoops, there went physics and common sense" anything less then an epic Jump check.

Fitz10019
2010-07-25, 11:05 AM
didnt read everything buuut... Ready an action as a druid or wizar/sorcerer and counter the spell by saying "when the mage shoots a bead out of his finger I summon monster/nature's ally right in front of him....

*wizard shoots* then an elephant or badger or something else appears and BOOM, there goes your summon and the wizard... Hmm I should make a build around this idea... hmmm

Summons are a full round of casting unless you took feats to speed it up. Any "Wall of..." spell will suit your idea nicely. If you can summon quickly, better a fire elemental who will ignore the fire damage.

Evard
2010-07-25, 11:07 AM
you never heard the saying

"i tell the laws of physics to shut up and sit down"

Object from point a to point b therefore it can be stopped without magic, therefore it should be able to be stopped with magic

what part of 3.5 magic doesn't throw common sense and physics out the window?

Make something out of nothing? That makes perfect sense >.>

The fireball is like a really really cool bullet, sure the guy can shoot you with it but if you put something in its way right before he shoots then the bullet gets stopped.

Take a look at counter-spelling

Snake-Aes
2010-07-25, 11:10 AM
Fire Elemental Summonings and Interposing hands. Beating counterspelling without checks and without spellresistance and smug enough to hammer the victim's face after it!

Adonis1x23
2010-07-25, 11:12 AM
That's funny.

I think, as a DM, I would probably let someone use a readied/contingent/whatever Gust of Wind to possibly blow it back.

Evard
2010-07-25, 11:14 AM
And risk catching the farmer's fields on fire where the party conveniently decided to do battle to the death to save the farmer from the evil mage? THE HORROR! :D

Adonis1x23
2010-07-25, 11:28 AM
Is there an item that let's you cast gust of wind like 1/day?

Evard
2010-07-25, 11:31 AM
yeah there is... paper fan or something.. if you cast it more times you risk breaking the item

arrowhen
2010-07-25, 11:47 AM
Is there an item that let's you cast gust of wind like 1/day?

Probably a magical can of beans.

herrhauptmann
2010-07-25, 12:08 PM
Why not gloves of missile snaring?
I've heard of two different people using just that to stop a fireball from hurting the party, albeit in AD&D games.
One of the DM's in those cases though, ruled that the explosion was limited to the casters hand, which took the full 10d6 damage. The wizard then went on a search for a familiar that would grant him some form of regeneration.

ericgrau
2010-07-25, 12:10 PM
It works and it works by RAW too, "instantaneous" doesn't mean you can't ready an action against it. But when you intercept it it will detonate. Bags of holding aren't invulnerable either, you'll lose the bag.

IMO a gust of wind would have little or no effect on a tiny round bead. It's not paper. Might throw the aim off just enough on a bead aimed carefully at a tiny opening, but that's rather situational.