Unique Dragons: a community monster-improving project (3.5)

[The Anarresti]

As has been pointed out several times in the past, one of the most unsatisfactory things about Dungeons and Dragons are the the Dragons themselves. I mean this in terms of the "color-coded-to-your-convenience" feel. However, in myth and tale, dragons are not dime-a-dozen monsters: they are unique indeviduals of power and majesty.
I propose that, as a fix (or alternative rule) to replace the current Dragon, True (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm), we instead make a "Dragon Creation Kit," so that every dragon in the world is a unique creature with a personality, appearance and bundle of powers all on their own. I have a few proposals.

1. Basic similarities between all dragons: Things outlined in SRD, like blindsense, flight, etc. A "skeleton dragon," outlined with all of these.

2. A system that allows you to give SLAs, caster/manifester levels, and special abilites in a way that easily shows CR from that.

3. A bank of said abilities and levels

4. about 3 sample dragons made in this way.

and some personal suggestions of my own, just things I would put in if I was a commenter:
1. Dragons are androgynous: each dragon is a loner. When they lay an egg, they make a nest, lay the egg, bury it, and then forget about it. It hatches years later, maybe centuries, possible in accordance with some cosmic event. Imagine the hook if the stone in the middle of the village turns out to be a dragon egg. A dragon may go its whole life without seeing another. Genes "scramble" themselves when an egg is laid to make genetic diversity. Controlled mutation.
2. Dragons live, much, much longer. like, 10,000 or so. or more.
3. more powerful. especially when they hatch. a hatchling should be maybe CR 7.
Eggs: A dragon embryo is in a semi-aware creature in an egg that is, to all outside appearances, a giant rock. The egg has damage reduction 30/adamantine. The dragon embryo can subconsciously affect the area around it, possibly causing a village to spring up around it, or a forest, or swamp, whatever change makes it a more suitable place for the hatchling. The hatching of an egg is an important cosmic event, sometimes foretold by omens. It can serve as an adventure hook for PCs: find the egg before it hatches, so you can slay the newest evil dragon. Or protect the newest good dragon. Or do nothing to the newest neutral dragon. Whatever.
4. Dragons should be able to have a neutral alignment. In fact, dragons should have variable alignment, like most sentient creatures.

[Mando Knight]

2. Dragons live, much, much longer. like, 10,000 or so. or more.

Not necessary. Even the thousands of years that dragons live make them immensely old when they reach their maximum age. A dragon that hatched when Julius Caesar conquered Gaul would have reached Great Wyrm status only relatively recently.

In that same amount of time, empires have risen and fallen, metallurgy has risen from barely making good steel to being able to precisely control its qualities, flying machines that can go faster than the speed of sound have been built, thousands of humans travel thousands of miles through the air daily, and brave souls have traveled beyond the skies to land on a celestial body that was thought at the beginning of the period to be traveling only by the will of a goddess.

Gentlemen, we have seen the dragon. And it is us.

[DracoDei]

Well, making a "build a dragon" kit with a clear CR is going to be tricky... some abilities will probably synergize well with each-other, some won't... and the best combinations won't necessary be the most thematic to a given dragon's vision.

That being said, I wish you luck. At worst you will have something that will let people get in the ball-park before adding the more unique abilities. And to show you that there may be more out there that people will want to do than can easily fit into a chart where most combinations work together about equally well, I am going to link to the three true dragons I created... and yes, I realize that some of the abilities repeat between the Wing Dragons and the Disco Dragons. Feel free to put the abilities on your chart (with credit)... I will be impressed if you can get all of them on (of course, I would pair Fog Immunity with the Wing Dragon's breath weapon, positive energy control with the Disco Dragon's BW and the appropriate immunity with the beige dragon's BW).

Wing Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3788332&postcount=9)
Beige Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/printthread.php?t=59834&pp=40)
Disco Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6844810&postcount=5)

[The Anarresti]

True, but in D&D world, humans are one of the fastest-breeding races, and thus one of the fastest-changing. In 1,200 years, humans may build empires, but elves go through... 8 generations. Ok that IS long.

[Violet Octopus]

...find the egg before it hatches, so you can slay the newest evil dragon. Or protect the newest good dragon. Or do nothing to the newest neutral dragon. Whatever.
4. Dragons should be able to have a neutral alignment. In fact, dragons should have variable alignment, like most sentient creatures.

So do you imagine dragons as being born as a mental blank slate, shaped by experience, or that alignment is a genetic trait (subject to mutation)? Actually, I like the idea of the variety of dragon alignments randomly mutating away from the true-neutral Progenitor Dragon.

Hmm, not sure how I perceive the role of dragons in the world, though I feel any system that comes out of this thread should be able to accommodate campaign worlds where dragons are more numerous or social.

[Oslecamo]

As has been pointed out several times in the past, one of the most unsatisfactory things about Dungeons and Dragons are the the Dragons themselves. I mean this in terms of the "color-coded-to-your-convenience" feel. However, in myth and tale, dragons are not dime-a-dozen monsters: they are unique indeviduals of power and majesty.
You could say that of pretty much ANY monster except the evil "horde" races. The minotaur, pegasus, manticore, medusa, giants were all unique beings with proper names and if they existed in multiples each one was special.

That said, dragons are only a dime a dozen if you make them so. There's nothing stoping you from making dragons very rare monsters on your campaign world. But some other people do like dime a dozen dragons.



I propose that, as a fix (or alternative rule) to replace the current Dragon, True (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm), we instead make a "Dragon Creation Kit," so that every dragon in the world is a unique creature with a personality, appearance and bundle of powers all on their own. I have a few proposals.

You do realize you can already do that simply by giving dragons class levels right? Dracomicon even provides dragon prestige classes Or again by making sure that dragons have very rare in numbers. Heck, just diferent spell lists can make two dragons quite diferent.

For example, in the MM there's 10 "true dragons". If there's just half a dozen of each color total in the world and then you slap each one with diferent class levels you already have plenty of variety. Add in the dozens of diferent dragons from splatbooks and you can have a population of dozens of dragons where each one is truly unique (one dragon from each variety).



1. Basic similarities between all dragons: Things outlined in SRD, like blindsense, flight, etc. A "skeleton dragon," outlined with all of these.

So first it's all dragons to be unique and diferent, and now you want them to share the same "skeleton"? Make up your mind.



2. A system that allows you to give SLAs, caster/manifester levels, and special abilites in a way that easily shows CR from that.

It's called adding class levels and tweaking feats.:smallsigh:



3. A bank of said abilities and levels

You're pretty much describing the notion of class and feats here.:smallwink:



4. about 3 sample dragons made in this way.

Grab dracomicon. Dozens of unique dragons for your fun and profit.



and some personal suggestions of my own, just things I would put in if I was a commenter:
1. Dragons are androgynous: each dragon is a loner. When they lay an egg, they make a nest, lay the egg, bury it, and then forget about it. It hatches years later, maybe centuries, possible in accordance with some cosmic event. Imagine the hook if the stone in the middle of the village turns out to be a dragon egg. A dragon may go its whole life without seeing another.

Ok so now all dragons are cold bastards that abandon their rare scarce progeny to fate?:smallconfused:



Genes "scramble" themselves when an egg is laid to make genetic diversity. Controlled mutation.

Just no. For genetic diversity you need numbers. If dragons are specially rare and then they each lay one egg whitout trading genes with other dragon then chances are things go wrong. Horribly wrong. In particular when the egg is exposed to centuries of outside influences.



2. Dragons live, much, much longer. like, 10,000 or so. or more.

Like already pointed out that's a hell lot of time.



3. more powerful. especially when they hatch. a hatchling should be maybe CR 7.

Pfft, prismatic dragons are epic when they hatch.



Eggs: A dragon embryo is in a semi-aware creature in an egg that is, to all outside appearances, a giant rock. The egg has damage reduction 30/adamantine. The dragon embryo can subconsciously affect the area around it, possibly causing a village to spring up around it, or a forest, or swamp, whatever change makes it a more suitable place for the hatchling. The hatching of an egg is an important cosmic event, sometimes foretold by omens. It can serve as an adventure hook for PCs: find the egg before it hatches, so you can slay the newest evil dragon. Or protect the newest good dragon. Or do nothing to the newest neutral dragon. Whatever.

Again, that' just a matter of the DM making dragons specially rare and puting NPCs making prophecies, not a problem of the monster itself.



4. Dragons should be able to have a neutral alignment. In fact, dragons should have variable alignment, like most sentient creatures.

Epic dragons have neutral alignment. Dracomicon also has several. Eberron throws alignment out of the windows and lets everybody be anything the DM wants whitout strings attached.

[Ashtagon]

Personally, I'd go with:

* A dragons' physical appearance (colour), personality (alignment), and combat statistics are not related at all. When designing a dragon, pick the stats for the dragon as if it was one particular RAW dragon, but pick the appearance and personality as needed for dramatic tension.
* Dragons are hermaphroditic. When dragons mate, there is a complex ritual to determine dominance, with the dominant partner deciding which dragon is the inseminator and which the egg-layer (yah, maybe tmi).
* Dragon lifespans follow RAW up to the adult stage. Past that point, a mystic ritual involving hibernation atop a large mound of gold and other precious metals is required. At the end of this ritual, the dragon sheds its skin, and while the skin is still fresh, it can be used to make armour. Helpful dragons may donate this skin to friendly kingdoms.

[Violet Octopus]

Firstly, this thread is in its very early stages and just canvassing ideas. And I recognise your criticisms were aimed at Leaf-Eater, but these are my responses.


So first it's all dragons to be unique and diferent, and now you want them to share the same "skeleton"? Make up your mind.
...
It's called adding class levels and tweaking feats.:smallsigh:
...
Grab dracomicon. Dozens of unique dragons for your fun and profit.
It's been a long time since I read Draconomicon, but I don't dispute there's a lot of useful stuff in there. Particularly the draconic feats. But I personally find the bucketload of separate dragon HD advancements to be inelegant and off putting. Besides breath weapon type, a handful of SLAs and greater/lesser combat ability and/or spellcasting, the dragons look pretty similar too.

It's the same problem I have with the proliferation of dozens of different niche-themed warrior base classes. I like classes with talent trees (particularly those in Star Wars Saga Edition), or classes like the warblade, or Fax's d20 Rebirth Cleric. One class, many flexible, modular pathways to go down. People can homebrew the talents, draconic disciplines, whatever, if they don't find what they're looking for. But at least they don't have to homebrew it, then look through 5 splatbooks looking for the right dragon advancement to give it to as an alternate class feature.


Just no. For genetic diversity you need numbers. If dragons are specially rare and then they each lay one egg whitout trading genes with other dragon then chances are things go wrong. Horribly wrong. In particular when the egg is exposed to centuries of outside influences.

D&D doesn't have a Mendelian genetics system, also there's magic:smalltongue:. Perhaps they supernaturally connect to the plane of Law to give stability to otherwise harmful mutation. Perhaps the abilities of every dragon to ever be born have been predestined since creation. Maybe dragons actually lay thousands of frog-spawn like eggs, only a few of which survive.
I personally prefer dragons which mate with each other and with humanoids, but I think it makes little difference to any class mechanics.


Again, that' just a matter of the DM making dragons specially rare and puting NPCs making prophecies, not a problem of the monster itself.

I think there are actually two distinct projects that are interrelated. One is the mechanical project to develop an easy yet versatile dragon monster class.
The other is detailed fluff that people may find useful for campaign settings where dragons are few and unique. I'd like to see a grab-bag of fluff ideas, useful to any campaign, but with a focus on what mainstream D&D has neglected. As I mentioned in the other thread, I have no problem with worlds where there are discrete species of dragons each with a fixed alignment. However I'd also like to see other approaches more fully realised.

[Oslecamo]

It's been a long time since I read Draconomicon, but I don't dispute there's a lot of useful stuff in there. Particularly the draconic feats. But I personally find the bucketload of separate dragon HD advancements to be inelegant and off putting. Besides breath weapon type, a handful of SLAs and greater/lesser combat ability and/or spellcasting, the dragons look pretty similar too.

Of course they do. They're suposed to be all dragons. Giant lizards who fly and breath stuff nad have magic powers on top.



It's the same problem I have with the proliferation of dozens of different niche-themed warrior base classes. I like classes with talent trees (particularly those in Star Wars Saga Edition), or classes like the warblade, or Fax's d20 Rebirth Cleric. One class, many flexible, modular pathways to go down. People can homebrew the talents, draconic disciplines, whatever, if they don't find what they're looking for. But at least they don't have to homebrew it, then look through 5 splatbooks looking for the right dragon advancement to give it to as an alternate class feature.

This is D&D 3.X. Multiclassing is one of the key tools of it. HD advancment is another on part of the monsters. If your system doesn't take both in acount then you're actualy hurting your work.

For example, there's the warblade... And then there's dozens of ToB-inspired base classes. You may not like them but there's a lot of people who do. If you want this to be a community project you need to give those people something to make it worth their time. Closed talent trees are all fun and games untill you realize they combine poorly with other D&D 3.X material.

This is, if your system ends up with all dragons being "warblades" whose only diference is that they each have diferent disciplines then they become a "dime a dozen" for sure.



D&D doesn't have a Mendelian genetics system, also there's magic:smalltongue:. Perhaps they supernaturally connect to the plane of Law to give stability to otherwise harmful mutation. Perhaps the abilities of every dragon to ever be born have been predestined since creation. Maybe dragons actually lay thousands of frog-spawn like eggs, only a few of which survive.

Perhaps the system in place already works well enough. Maybe the people who don't like it went to play D&D 4e where monster advancement is as easy and standardized as possible.



I personally prefer dragons which mate with each other and with humanoids, but I think it makes little difference to any class mechanics.

Claim the dragons lay clutches of eggs and you have wizards searching for said clutches so they can easily mass breed dragons.



I think there are actually two distinct projects that are interrelated. One is the mechanical project to develop an easy yet versatile dragon monster class.

I don't know how many times I've heard that, related to other stuff. Many have tried. I've yet to see anyone suceed. D&D itself is the proof that versatility breeds difficulty. In order for there to be truly diferent dragons you need diferent advancments and inherent abilities. If you create a base dragon class you would need hundreds of alternate abilities to make it truly versatile, and then you're better off just going trough 5 diferent splatbooks instead of a a hundred pages of special abilities.



The other is detailed fluff that people may find useful for campaign settings where dragons are few and unique. I'd like to see a grab-bag of fluff ideas, useful to any campaign, but with a focus on what mainstream D&D has neglected. As I mentioned in the other thread, I have no problem with worlds where there are discrete species of dragons each with a fixed alignment. However I'd also like to see other approaches more fully realised.

Considering that you want dragons to be super-awesome-special beings, then you would need to develop a whole campaign seting from scratch since when dragons are changing the landscape itself just by hatching and the stars sing of their births then everything else changes.

[Morph Bark]

D&D doesn't have a Mendelian genetics system,
[sar]
Oh, so that's why Orc + Elf = Dwarf, Gnome + Goblin = Half-Troll Half-Minotaur Goliath and Nymph + Succubus = Human or Changeling or Warforged.[/casm]

[The Anarresti]

Well my second set are just fluff suggestions, I really don't care if those stay or not. I just want to make a system to have unique dragons for those DMs who want it.

[Owrtho]

However, in myth and tale, dragons are not dime-a-dozen monsters: they are unique indeviduals of power and majesty.

This statement is wrong. It seems to be based on many myths having a few unique or otherwise important named dragons that are well know. However, almost all such mythologies have numerous "dime-a-dozen" dragons that are rarely considered because they'e appearance and killing often ends up being of little note. In many cases they may still have been rare, but they were not the unique being you make them out to be.

As for developing a 'skeleton' as you mentioned, the basic suggestions you listed are themselves flawed. Blindsense is rather rare in dragon myths. Flight, while common, is not possessed by a large number of dragons. Many dragons have no magical abilities, and even breath weapons are frequently absent.

All that said, it seems the easiest way to accomplish what you want would be something like one or more dragon classes, possibly a few PRCs and a generic dragon race that would likely look fairly similar to humans aside from size and type.

Owrtho

[Morph Bark]

As for developing a 'skeleton' as you mentioned, the basic suggestions you listed are themselves flawed. Blindsense is rather rare in dragon myths. Flight, while common, is not possessed by a large number of dragons. Many dragons have no magical abilities, and even breath weapons are frequently absent.

This can easily be explained by a simple division: there's dragons, and there's true dragons. All true dragons are also dragons, but not all dragons are true dragons, just like how all cows are animals, but not all animals are cows.

[devinkowalczyk]

I don't think an entire Build-A-Dragon workshop is needed for every dragon. A slight reduction in current power and an increase in possible choices.

So they lose some powers, but gain the ability to: have better armor, be larger, cast spells, blah blah blah.

It makes them less grandly unique and slightly more believable.


And one thing that I have come across is dragons become a dime a dozen. We have killed over 6 dragons in 15 levels in a 4e game. I think all the baby dragons should be taken out. Dragons should be epic only. Drakes, wyvern, and others can be lower levels.

[Harperfan7]

Well my second set are just fluff suggestions, I really don't care if those stay or not. I just want to make a system to have unique dragons for those DMs who want it.

Good enough for me. I'm on board.

I have a suggestion. When you make a ghost, it has 1dwhatever+whatever abilities that it can choose from a list. We should do the same thing, but make which it gets random.

We could have different tables to be picked randomly from, though, because you'd want randomly chosen abilities that make sense. You could have it so that the first randomly chosen thing determines which tables to roll from next, so that, say, an earth dragon would have randomly determined earth powers. Some tables rolled from wouldn't matter what kind of dragon it is, like whether or not it has spell resistance.

Anyways, what is step one?

[Ponderthought]

I believe step one would be to decide what a draconian baseline would be, to thus create the sort of skeleton.

I like this idea immensely. I wouldn't be using it to create unique dragons, but rather make up species. ive always though that dragons should have various breeds defined more by environment than color.