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Dorna
2010-07-25, 11:27 AM
In my next group i'm planning to play a Warblade fighting with two weapons. I never played one before... so i post my thoughts at this point and hope to get some advices if this built is just crap ;)

We'll be starting at level 9

1 Warblade: Weapon Focus (Longsword) / Two-Weapon Fighting / Battle Clarity / Weapon Aptitude
2 Warblade: Uncanny Dodge
3 Warblade: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting / Battle Ardor
4 Warblade
5 Warblade: Blade Meditation / Impr. Uncanny Dodge
6 Warblade: Weapon Specialization (Longsword)
7 Warblade: Battle Cunning
8 Warblade
9 Warblade: Impr. Two-Weapon Fighting / Stone Power

I thought about giving him Strongarm Bracers to use two large Longswords for a bit more Damage ;)

As stances i'd take Punishing Stance and Absolute Steel Dance
Maneuvers:
Moment of perfect Mind
Wall of Blades
Iron Heart Surge
Sudden Leap
Wolf Fang Strike
Death from Above
Dancing Mongoose
Leading the Attack

Thats it so far.. do you think, it is going to work? :)

Escheton
2010-07-25, 11:32 AM
You did pick the maneuvers that actually work with twf. You obviously know that the class is best with twohanded or sword and board, what with the standard action maneuvers and all and twoweaponfighting being best when using full attack actions.

You might be better off dual wielding bastardswords instead of longswords.
Or warmaces.
That way you can get some other exotics by simply slapping on a +1 enhancement.

mjames
2010-07-25, 11:34 AM
You might need Monkey Grip in there... Oversized lets the off hand be larger, but you would use Monkey Grip to use even bigger weapons...

Critical
2010-07-25, 11:38 AM
Drop oversized TWF, use Keen Kukri's with Blood in the Water instead. Lightning Maces Aptituded Keen Kukri's, if you like deep fried cheese. :smalltongue:

Greenish
2010-07-25, 11:38 AM
You might be better off dual wielding bastardswords instead of longswords.What, and waste yet another feat?
You might need Monkey Grip in there... Oversized lets the off hand be larger, but you would use Monkey Grip to use even bigger weapons...Monkey Grip sucks. Do not use it, ever. Strongarm Bracers are decent, but hardly necessary.


I would go Blood in the Water and dual kukri critfishing if I was looking for damage from TWF. Maybe sword & board Power Attack pouncer.

Draz74
2010-07-25, 11:39 AM
Thats it so far.. do you think, it is going to work? :)

Yep; your feat choices aren't optimal (OTWF and Weapon Focus/Specialization are underwhelming), but your maneuvers are well-selected and you should be able to contribute just fine to a party in general.

Blood in the Water with kukris is great, but it's hardly the only way for a Tiger Claw Warblade to be effective with TWF.


You might need Monkey Grip in there... Oversized lets the off hand be larger, but you would use Monkey Grip to use even bigger weapons...

*facepalm*

I'm trying to decide whether this even merits a rebuttal.

Probably not, considering the OP already mentioned Strongarm Bracers ...

Ilmryn
2010-07-25, 11:44 AM
You might need Monkey Grip in there... Oversized lets the off hand be larger, but you would use Monkey Grip to use even bigger weapons...

Monkey grip specifically states that you can't use a weapon in your off hand. Yes, I know that there is a pregenerated NPC who does, but this just proves that WotC doesn't read its own rules.

Dorna
2010-07-25, 11:47 AM
Drop oversized TWF, use Keen Kukri's with Blood in the Water instead. Lightning Maces Aptituded Keen Kukri's, if you like deep fried cheese. :smalltongue:

I thought about this... without the Lighning Maces aptitude (that sounded to cheesy ;) )
I took Kukris of Haste and improved Critical (imp. crit and keen do not stack in 3.5 if i'm right).
But isn't this built extremely helpless against someone with high AC?

Snake-Aes
2010-07-25, 11:48 AM
The steep requirements of TWF make it not really worth it to burn feats on oversided TWF. Doing 1d8 instead of 1d4 won't give you much of an advantage.

You also won't put many maneuvers to use, since they rely on single attacks (or a single aoe attack), but the attackattackattack side of Tiger Claw will do you good. You can do like what, 22 attacks in a round when you go nova?

If you really want to go TWF, don't worry about oversized weaponry.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-25, 11:50 AM
I thought about this... without the Lighning Maces aptitude (that sounded to cheesy ;) )
I took Kukris of Haste and improved Critical (imp. crit and keen do not stack in 3.5 if i'm right).
But isn't this built extremely helpless against someone with high AC?

Depends. You are losing 2 ab compared to a single weapon/2h fighting, but there are ways to work around it. Namely, stormguard warrior + robilar's + combat reflexes (you'll have high dex anyway). If you really really just need to hit, you can just not use the offhand and do a standard action attack. You aren't subject TWF penalties if you aren't using TWF.

Greenish
2010-07-25, 11:51 AM
But isn't this built extremely helpless against someone with high AC?Not more so than other TWF builds.

mjames
2010-07-25, 11:56 AM
Hey, Monkey Grip isn't optimized, I agree. But it's fun and flavorful and doesn't take up an item slot. I don't know, IMO I've always thought that certain items (from a roleplay perspective) are a little lacking. Just because you can wield a larger weapon with the bracers doesn't mean you'll be as great as using the size weapon you've probably trained with all your life.

So, yes, from an optimization standpoint I'm a bad kitty... but he's got a good idea, why not fluff a feat and put more money into weapons.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-07-25, 12:01 PM
But isn't this built extremely helpless against someone with high AC?

Really high AC's aren't that common, there are far better things to put resources into (except maybe at low levels, when most heavier armours give you a decent return).

And besides, you make up for a lower attack bonus with more chances to hit. Against something with ludicrous AC you're more likely to hit because a natural twenty always hits, even if it doesn't actually get a critical. Also remember that it's in the best interests of other meleers to flank, and flanking with you is as good a choice as any other ally. *hopes this isn't wrong*

Prodan
2010-07-25, 12:08 PM
Hey, Monkey Grip isn't optimized, I agree. But it's fun and flavorful and doesn't take up an item slot. I don't know, IMO I've always thought that certain items (from a roleplay perspective) are a little lacking. Just because you can wield a larger weapon with the bracers doesn't mean you'll be as great as using the size weapon you've probably trained with all your life.

So, yes, from an optimization standpoint I'm a bad kitty... but he's got a good idea, why not fluff a feat and put more money into weapons.

Why don't we skip the feat and say he has it, ie, fluff that he has the fluff feat?

tyckspoon
2010-07-25, 12:16 PM
So, yes, from an optimization standpoint I'm a bad kitty... but he's got a good idea, why not fluff a feat and put more money into weapons.

Strongarm Bracers are cheap for the level he's playing at, there's not a lot of compelling other items to compete for the Bracers slot, and Monkey Grip is objectively worse than using the Bracers, because you still take the mis-sized weapon penalty with the feat. Combine that with GP being much more readily available than feat slots.. there's no good argument for using Monkey Grip.

Abaddon87
2010-07-25, 12:24 PM
I actually had an epic level Warblade that picked up Baylor swords (Greatswords for me since they are large longswords) with a stunning maneuver. We fought in the hells a lot and I aquired quite a few of them and used the first two I got as my weapons. He had IMP CRIT, TWF and IMP TWF, Monkey Grip and Oversized TWF. Worked great for my toon as he wasnt going for hits and damage, just crits to behead. Maneuvers added damage if it mattered. I mostly used the same moves you have chosen for your guy (or the higher level forms as he was lvl 23). It may not have been "optimized", but walking around with two greatswords shaped like lightning bolds and decappitating everyone was pretty darn cool in my book!

Edit: Also, using a +5 Vorpal sword with the Adamantine Tornado maneuver (whirlwind attack x2) and critting on 8 guys was pretty awesome!

Escheton
2010-07-25, 12:48 PM
What, and waste yet another feat?Monkey Grip sucks. Do not use it, ever. Strongarm Bracers are decent, but hardly necessary.


I would go Blood in the Water and dual kukri critfishing if I was looking for damage from TWF. Maybe sword & board Power Attack pouncer.

No, instead of weapon specialisation, duh

That way you are proficient and focused in any and all exotic weapon you get. Well, after adding the aptitude enhancement, but still.

Dorna
2010-07-25, 01:17 PM
ok. just in case i'd take the "stormguard-warrior-kukris-of-speed-imp-crit"-way ;)
Then i should use Dancing Mongoose or something to push Combat Rhythm ?(Channel the storm seems only to become great with Robilar's Gambit - not at level 9 ;) )
But wont i provoke AoOs because of the Touch-Attacks?

Draz74
2010-07-25, 01:38 PM
Strongarm Bracers are cheap for the level he's playing at, there's not a lot of compelling other items to compete for the Bracers slot, and Monkey Grip is objectively worse than using the Bracers, because you still take the mis-sized weapon penalty with the feat. Combine that with GP being much more readily available than feat slots.. there's no good argument for using Monkey Grip.

Worse: against opponents with typical AC, he will actually do less average damage using Monkey Grip than he will do without using Monkey Grip. Monkey Grip isn't just a waste of a feat (like Weapon Specialization), it actively makes the character worse.


Then i should use Dancing Mongoose or something to push Combat Rhythm ?(Channel the storm seems only to become great with Robilar's Gambit - not at level 9 ;) )
Personally, I'd say, save Dancing Mongoose to follow up after you make your touch attacks for Combat Rhythm.


But wont i provoke AoOs because of the Touch-Attacks?

No. Why would you?

Dorna
2010-07-25, 01:45 PM
Personally, I'd say, save Dancing Mongoose to follow up after you make your touch attacks for Combat Rhythm.
Ok. That was just what came in my mind first ;)




No. Why would you?
Because i had Unarmed Attacks in mind. Not touch.. It's late. I should get some sleep :smallbiggrin:

Snake-Aes
2010-07-25, 01:46 PM
Worse: against opponents with typical AC, he will actually do less average damage using Monkey Grip than he will do without using Monkey Grip. Monkey Grip isn't just a waste of a feat (like Weapon Specialization), it actively makes the character worse.


Personally, I'd say, save Dancing Mongoose to follow up after you make your touch attacks for Combat Rhythm.



No. Why would you?

The cluster of touch attacks is better applied with normal attacks. You're almost guaranteed to hit 5 or 6 of the 7 attacks if they're all touch. Then you follow up with the mongoose boosts. Or if you want to go nova, raging mongoose + time stands still

Greenish
2010-07-25, 01:58 PM
No, instead of weapon specialisation, duhTrading a bad feat for another bad feat doesn't make the latter any better.
That way you are proficient and focused in any and all exotic weapon you get. Well, after adding the aptitude enhancement, but still.Warblade, duh. They get Weapon Aptitude as a class feature. Still doesn't change the fact that most exotic weapons aren't worth the feat, and bastard sword sucks.

Exotic weapons of interest for TWF: Spinning Sword, Double Khopesh, Kusari-Kama, Eagle's Claw (only if wanting to maximize attacks per round for crit fishing) and Ghost Spike.

Oversized TWF just might be worth it with Spinning Swords.

Escheton
2010-07-25, 02:08 PM
Weapon aptitude for warblade allows you to swap the focus of your weapon specific feats every day. Still only 1 at a time.
The enhancement allows you to have 4 different exotics with 1 feat. duh

Greenish
2010-07-25, 02:11 PM
Weapon aptitude for warblade allows you to swap the focus of your weapon specific feats every day. Still only 1 at a time.
The enhancement allows you to have 4 different exotics with 1 feat. duhYeah, 4 different enhanced weapons is a good use of your money, since TWFers have so much extra to spend.

And bastard swords still suck.

Escheton
2010-07-25, 02:44 PM
bastards swords are better then longswords with specialisation with the same flavor.

however you are better off with:
Sword, elven lightblade 50 gp 1d6 1820/2 1 lb. Piercing, light weapon
or
Sword, elven thinblade 100 gp 1d8 1820/2 3 lb. Piercing, one handed
if going oversized.

or just plain kukri's if you want to save the feats.

Greenish
2010-07-25, 02:49 PM
bastards swords are better then longswords with specialisation with the same flavor.An average of one point of damage more is not worth a feat, or even the gold for the weapon property. EWP: Bastard Sword is worse than Weapon Specialization: Longsword for damage.

however you are better off with:
Sword, elven lightblade 50 gp 1d6 1820/2 1 lb. Piercing, light weapon
or
Sword, elven thinblade 100 gp 1d8 1820/2 3 lb. Piercing, one handed
if going oversized.Elves can get proficiency for both with Improved Weapon Familiarity, and apply the same feats to both.

Caphi
2010-07-25, 03:15 PM
bastards swords are better then longswords with specialisation with the same flavor.

1d10: 1-10, flat distribution.
d8+2: 3-10, flat distribution.

So yeah.

Escheton
2010-07-25, 03:20 PM
Well it's mostly to get harpoons for shortrange, greatbows for longrange and warmaces for skellies while not handing in too much damage for your main weapon. Something rcial weapon prof doesnt give.
But yeah, the nitpickers are right.

balistafreak
2010-07-25, 03:20 PM
1d10: 1-10, flat distribution.
d8+2: 3-10, flat distribution.

So yeah.

And knowing is half the battle!

*smacks self*

Yeah, going to repeat it: to improve melee damage, improve damage bonuses, not size/number of dice rolled.

It's not about size... it's how you use it.

*commits seppuku in shame*

Coidzor
2010-07-25, 03:23 PM
An average of one point of damage more is not worth a feat, or even the gold for the weapon property. EWP: Bastard Sword is worse than Weapon Specialization: Longsword for damage.

Or get lesser sunblades (I know, I know, is money, is expensive, mostly just exists for those who just wanna wield bastard swords and damn the costs) and don't even spend a feat to get bastard sword damage on both hands while counting as wielding balanced weapons. Almost as good as weapon specialization longsword (is 2 +1s instead of a +3) without costing a feat.

This does delay nifty magical effects from taking off for a bit due to the gold cost of getting 2 lesser sunblades though.

Or were you referring to sunblades when you mentioned weapon property?

Dorna
2010-07-25, 03:38 PM
Remember: My character will start at level 9 and i got something about 38000g. So my options are some kind of limited ;)

Nero24200
2010-07-25, 04:08 PM
Hmmm...so you're looking for good things to use with TWF with a warblade?

*Coughs*
Shamless Plug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7232363#post7232363)
*Coughs*

AslanCross
2010-07-25, 05:56 PM
Ok, I'd just like to raise a rather strange conundrum regarding ToB and TWF.

1. Attacking with two weapons, as described in the PHB, is a full-round action. It describes the penalties for doing so in the same entry.

2. Wolf Fang Strike is not a full-round action, but it gives a -2 penalty on attacking with both weapons as a standard action.

Given that the core rules do not mention penalties for attacking with two weapons as a standard action, it can be assumed that the penalties only apply for the core "attacking with multiple weapons is a full round action."

Since Wolf Fang Strike is an exception, is it safe to say that its penalties replace the standard full round action, and thus, that a ToB character who uses two weapons actually does not need the Two Weapon Fighting feat tree?

(That said, I'd guess one would want to attack with two weapons as much as possible, as it's a big investment, and that relying too much on a single Lv 1 maneuver might not be so prudent.)

Snake-Aes
2010-07-25, 06:05 PM
At no moment TWF is mentioned as only applying during full attacks. The penalty remains even as you perform attacks of opportunity for as long as you are in TWF mode.

Coidzor
2010-07-25, 06:07 PM
At no moment TWF is mentioned as only applying during full attacks. The penalty remains even as you perform attacks of opportunity for as long as you are in TWF mode.

But you're only in TWF mode if you've actually used the TWFing during your last turn. Which requires the full-round action barring that maneuver.

Right?

Snake-Aes
2010-07-25, 06:19 PM
But you're only in TWF mode if you've actually used the TWFing during your last turn. Which requires the full-round action barring that maneuver.

Right?

That is never made clear, unlike other abilities who only last if triggered like Combat Expertise.

Coidzor
2010-07-25, 06:26 PM
That is never made clear, unlike other abilities who only last if triggered like Combat Expertise.

So it all depends on DM adjudication then. Is it just from having two weapons in one's limbs or does one need to fight with 'em or is it more like a stance that one activates or deactivates as a wossname action...

Snake-Aes
2010-07-25, 06:32 PM
So it all depends on DM adjudication then. Is it just from having two weapons in one's limbs or does one need to fight with 'em or is it more like a stance that one activates or deactivates as a wossname action...

I saw a questioning on ambidextry made just after the 3.5 changes and it was mentioned that D&D characters are effectively ambidextrous, whatever hand they choose at a round is the main hand. It also says something about how a TWF can just choose not to use both weapons in a round and thus not be subject to TWF penalties, effectively ignoring the offhand weapon.

But I don't remember where I saw that, and it wasn't clear on "activation" of TWF either.

Eldariel
2010-07-25, 06:33 PM
Stormguard Warrior is a must. Honestly, Swordsages dip Warblade for that! You can get Ironheart Aura as a bonus feat too! Saves you time with your OTWF, Blade Meditation and other silliness.

Don't bother increasing size of TWF damage dice; it's too much effort for too little gain. Use feats that grant you bonuses to actual damage instead. You won't run out of them, trust me. Consider Finesse/Shadow Bladeing it (or dip Bloodclaw Master to get full Str to your offhand; either way you'll end up with full stat on both hand, be it Dex or Str), and Melee Weapon Mastery is somewhat decent too if you have excess feats though chances are you won't.


Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) + Improved Trip is a great way to add some To Hit and disruption to your combat, and make Stormguard Warrior easier to use; knock some guy down with your first attack, then Channel the Storm and unleash next round. You can later on Channel Avalanche of Blades and have some real fun. And Imp. Trip synergizes with your Int prerequisites anyways. This only if going Str-focus though, of course, since Tripping is Str-based and you need focus to make it work.

AslanCross
2010-07-25, 06:48 PM
At no moment TWF is mentioned as only applying during full attacks. The penalty remains even as you perform attacks of opportunity for as long as you are in TWF mode.

What I mean is that the penalties that Wolf Fang Strike imposes on attacking with both weapons seems to overwrite and not stack with the regular penalties (because if they did, that would really suck). Assuming they do not, then I don't really need to take the TWF tree if I'm going to depend entirely on WFS for attacking with two weapons.

EDIT: And yes, Stormguard Warrior is THE definitive TWF feat for ToB characters.

Greenish
2010-07-25, 09:21 PM
What I mean is that the penalties that Wolf Fang Strike imposes on attacking with both weapons seems to overwrite and not stack with the regular penalties (because if they did, that would really suck). Assuming they do not, then I don't really need to take the TWF tree if I'm going to depend entirely on WFS for attacking with two weapons.Relying entirely on WFS for TWF doesn't seem viable at all. TWF with ToB is more about getting the right boosts and the few strikes that allow full attacks (Pouncing Charge, Time Stands Still and maybe some others), since most strikes are more conductive with THW.

And you need TWF (or MWF) to enter Bloodclaw Master, which is a nice dip for strength-focused TWF.


Agile Shield Fighter is an interesting option too, since then you could PA with both attacks while only taking -2 from attacking with offhand, and there are some nifty feats for shields.

AslanCross
2010-07-25, 09:50 PM
Relying entirely on WFS for TWF doesn't seem viable at all. TWF with ToB is more about getting the right boosts and the few strikes that allow full attacks (Pouncing Charge, Time Stands Still and maybe some others), since most strikes are more conductive with THW.

And you need TWF (or MWF) to enter Bloodclaw Master, which is a nice dip for strength-focused TWF.


Agile Shield Fighter is an interesting option too, since then you could PA with both attacks while only taking -2 from attacking with offhand, and there are some nifty feats for shields.

I agree it's not viable, but I just want to see if I'm reading this right.

Darrin
2010-07-25, 10:21 PM
Since Wolf Fang Strike is an exception, is it safe to say that its penalties replace the standard full round action, and thus, that a ToB character who uses two weapons actually does not need the Two Weapon Fighting feat tree?


Yes, Wolf Fang Strike supercedes whatever your current penalty is for attacking with two weapons. Whether or not you have TWF, it doesn't matter, you just get a -2 penalty to those two attacks.

Another quirk: Wolf Fang Strike doesn't appear to care if one or both weapons is light or one-handed. You could use Wolf Fang Strike with two one-handed weapons, and only take a -2 penalty on both.

It's also clear that the -2 penalty only applies to those two attacks. If you find some other way to attack during that round (Snap Kick, AoOs, etc.), the -2 penalty no longer applies.

Escheton
2010-07-25, 10:25 PM
Great maneuver when taking the einhander and quickdraw feat then.
Or just swap the board for another sword for 1 round...
actually, with that board being a weapon as well can't you just swipe and shieldbash with it?

Snake-Aes
2010-07-25, 10:27 PM
You should be able to. Attacking with your shield is considered TWF anyway. Same for unarmed strike. You can WFS with your sword and your other arm's elbow.

Milskidasith
2010-07-25, 11:16 PM
Instead of using greatswords, you can pick up sunswords; they count as short swords and bastard swords, so they are light weapons except when it's better that they aren't and also work with TWF.

Dorna
2010-07-26, 04:02 AM
New Day, new Character :smallwink:
Out of this threat i read, that my Longsword-DW Warblade might do his job but is fa from being optimized in any way.
So i changed a bit an this is my next try:

FEATS:
Combat Reflexes
Improved Critical (Kukri)
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Ironheart Aura
Stormguard Warrior

MANEUVERS
Moment of Perfect Mind (Diamond Mind) (Counter Level 1)
Wall of Blades (Iron Heart) (Counter Level 2)
Iron Heart Surge (Iron Heart) (Level 3)
Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw) (Boost Level 1)
Wolf Fang Strike (Tiger Claw) (Strike Level 1)
Death From Above (Tiger Claw) (Strike Level 4)
Dancing Mongoose (Tiger Claw) (Boost Level 5)
Leading the Attack (White Raven) (Strike Level 1)
Punishing Stance (Iron Heart) (Stance Level 1)
Blood in the Water (Tiger Claw) (Stance Level 1)

I'd run around with Blood in the Water, try to achieve as many Criticals as possible (Kukris of Speed for more attacks?), push up combat rhythm and execute the whole thing with Dancing Mongoose?
Would that do better?

Dorna
2010-07-26, 04:16 AM
Hm. Where are you getting Kukri Proficiency from?

Isn't a Kukri just a light melee weapon? Then i should know how to use them as a warblade i guess

ex cathedra
2010-07-26, 04:23 AM
Kukris are no longer exotic weapons, though I vaguely recall that they once were. I have wasted a feat on Kukri proficiency several times, to be honest.

Dorna
2010-07-26, 04:30 AM
In 3.0 they were. In 3.5 they are just light melee

Coidzor
2010-07-26, 04:35 AM
Well, huh. How about that. Sorry guys.

Dorna
2010-07-26, 11:30 AM
New Day, new Character :smallwink:
Out of this threat i read, that my Longsword-DW Warblade might do his job but is fa from being optimized in any way.
So i changed a bit an this is my next try:

FEATS:
Combat Reflexes
Improved Critical (Kukri)
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Ironheart Aura
Stormguard Warrior

MANEUVERS
Moment of Perfect Mind (Diamond Mind) (Counter Level 1)
Wall of Blades (Iron Heart) (Counter Level 2)
Iron Heart Surge (Iron Heart) (Level 3)
Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw) (Boost Level 1)
Wolf Fang Strike (Tiger Claw) (Strike Level 1)
Death From Above (Tiger Claw) (Strike Level 4)
Dancing Mongoose (Tiger Claw) (Boost Level 5)
Leading the Attack (White Raven) (Strike Level 1)
Punishing Stance (Iron Heart) (Stance Level 1)
Blood in the Water (Tiger Claw) (Stance Level 1)

I'd run around with Blood in the Water, try to achieve as many Criticals as possible (Kukris of Speed for more attacks?), push up combat rhythm and execute the whole thing with Dancing Mongoose?
Would that do better?

Or would it be better so save some money on the weapons? Take Keen Kukris, something to boost Agility in to take Another feat instead of imp crit?

Snake-Aes
2010-07-26, 11:35 AM
Or would it be better so save some money on the weapons? Take Keen Kukris, something to boost Agility in to take Another feat instead of imp crit?

Would there be another, better feat? It's not like the warblade is stuck with kukris because of imp crit so it's an extra +1 to use on the weapon.

TooManyBadgers
2010-07-26, 11:39 AM
It looks like you have 2 feats in your level 6 slot.

Dorna
2010-07-26, 11:49 AM
Combat Reflexes / Ironheart Aura - 5th/9th level Warblade Bonus
Improved Critical (Kukri) - Level 1
Two-Weapon Fighting - Level 1 Human
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting - Level 3
Weapon Finesse - Level 6
Stormguard Warrior - Level 9

That should fit, or am i wrong?

Snake-Aes
2010-07-26, 11:50 AM
Combat Reflexes / Ironheart Aura - 5th/9th level Warblade Bonus
Improved Critical (Kukri) - Level 1
Two-Weapon Fighting - Level 1 Human
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting - Level 3
Weapon Finesse - Level 6
Stormguard Warrior - Level 9

That should fit, or am i wrong?

Imp Crit and Imp TWF have BAB pre-requisites. +8 and +6 actually.

Dorna
2010-07-26, 12:08 PM
hm.. that might be a problem ;)

Any Ideas? Wepaon Focus (kukri) instead of imp crit, 2 Keen Kukris iinstead of Speed, something to boost agility? Less attacks but with a greater chance to hit and crit? Or is there no way to play this character at this level that makes sense?

Mushroom Ninja
2010-07-26, 12:28 PM
If you dip two levels of fighter you can get both Stormguard Warrior and High sword low axe running which could be pretty sweet:

1: Combat Expertise
Human Bonus: Improved Trip
Fighter Bonus: Weapon Focus (longsword)
Fighter Bonus Weapon Focus (some sort of axe)
3:Two Weapon Fighting
6:High Sword Low Axe
Warblade Bonus: Iron heart Aura
9: Stormguard Warrior

Draz74
2010-07-26, 12:38 PM
I say, just don't worry about Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at this level. (Or get it by buying Gloves of the Balanced Hand instead. Magic Item Compendium, 8000 gp.)

That should let you take Stormguard Warrior at Level 6 and Improved Critical at Level 9.

I do think Improved Critical is actually a better idea than buying Keen weapons, in the long run. Mostly because there are a lot of cool enhancements that let you do extra effects on a crit, but that don't work on Keen weapons. Among these:

Bless Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blessWeapon.htm) (or Sacred Scabbard from the MIC)
Enervating weapons (MIC)
Slow Burst weapon (MIC).


EDIT: More suggestions.

Is your DEX really enough higher than your STR to make Weapon Finesse worth it? If so, you might want to boost your Strength. :smalltongue: It increases your damage, after all; and that's a damage increase that multiplies on a crit. This is a good thing. If you drop Weapon Finesse, there are certainly other good things you could pick up in that feat slot. Adaptive Style? Stand Still?

Punishing Stance is normally pretty good with TWF ... but I'm not sure a Blood in the Water-based character will ever actually use it at all. At least until Level 20 when you can have two stances active at the same time. Perhaps you'd be better off taking Hunter's Sense, so that you have one stance that's always on in combat and one that's useful for non-combat utility. (EDIT again: Hmmm, on second thought, I guess there's always crit-immune foes to consider.)

Dorna
2010-07-26, 12:56 PM
Pnishing Stance was just a filler. Thats what i wanted to use for my Char in the First post.. TWF with 2 large Longswords.

The results from my ability-rolls are 16/14/12/12/11/10.. another limitation i guess :smallbiggrin:

Draz74
2010-07-26, 12:58 PM
Pnishing Stance was just a filler. Thats what i wanted to use for my Char in the First post.. TWF with 2 large Longswords.
Well, since you're changing other stuff around, switch Punishing Stance to Hunter's Sense. :smallsmile:


The results from my ability-rolls are 16/14/12/12/11/10.. another limitation i guess :smallbiggrin:

Then I can't imagine Weapon Finesse being worth it, because I can't imagine you putting a lower stat than 14 in your Strength.

Dorna
2010-07-26, 01:07 PM
Then I can't imagine Weapon Finesse being worth it, because I can't imagine you putting a lower stat than 14 in your Strength.

My Idea was to hit with as many attacks as possible to boost Combat Rhythm. And the agility needs to be at last 17 for the TWF feats... more agility for mor hits was my thought ;)

Keld Denar
2010-07-26, 01:26 PM
The Speed enhancement is almost never worth it. Its a Haste attack, and thus doesn't stack with other Haste attacks, including the one you get for an offhand speed weapon. Get Boots of Speed instead for 10 rounds per day of Haste and only use it on rounds where you are going to be full attacking. Or just hope your party includes a wizard/sorcerer/beguiler who casts Haste, or a cleric who casts Righteous Wrath of the Faithful or Valiant Fury.

Draz74
2010-07-26, 02:05 PM
and thus doesn't stack with other Haste attacks, including the one you get for an offhand speed weapon.

Actually, whether two Speed weapons can work simultaneously is one of those eternal ambiguities that's been debated to high heaven with no resolution. At least by RAW. By RAI, I think it's pretty clear two Speed weapons are supposed to work in harmony, as evidenced by double weapons that have Speed on both ends (the Quarterstaff of Alacrity in the Epic Handbook, and the Quarterstaff of Battle in the Magic Item Compendium).

You are, however, correct that Boots of Speed or another haste effect are a better use of the character's money than Speed weapons. (Instead, I'd again suggest making your kukris Enervating weapons.)

Darrin
2010-07-26, 02:54 PM
Well, since you're changing other stuff around, switch Punishing Stance to Hunter's Sense.

No! TWF needs all the bonus damage they can get. Even without TWF, this is the bread-and-butter stance most Warblades should be spending the majority of their time in. The odds of Scent really being useful are pretty low.



Then I can't imagine Weapon Finesse being worth it, because I can't imagine you putting a lower stat than 14 in your Strength.

You can get the equivalent of Weapon Finesse by adding the Feycraft template (DMGII) to two light weapons, such as kukris.

Keld Denar
2010-07-26, 03:07 PM
By RAI, I think it's pretty clear two Speed weapons are supposed to work in harmony, as evidenced by double weapons that have Speed on both ends (the Quarterstaff of Alacrity in the Epic Handbook, and the Quarterstaff of Battle in the Magic Item Compendium).


On the other hand, many of WotC's examples are outright wrong or illegal, like the Green Star Adept example character that doesn't qualify for GSA, or any of the other dozen or so blatent mistakes made. Its possible that WotC, in there infinite and far-reaching wisdom neglected to remember that Haste attacks don't stack with other Haste effects when creating these items...

Draz74
2010-07-26, 03:17 PM
My Idea was to hit with as many attacks as possible to boost Combat Rhythm. And the agility needs to be at last 17 for the TWF feats... more agility for mor hits was my thought ;)

Of course. However, even if your DEX is 17 and your STR is 14, Weapon Finesse is only boosting your attack rolls by +1. That's a pretty weak effect for a feat.


No! TWF needs all the bonus damage they can get. Even without TWF, this is the bread-and-butter stance most Warblades should be spending the majority of their time in. The odds of Scent really being useful are pretty low.
Except that he can't be in Punishing Stance if he's in Blood in the Water. And he'll generally be in Blood in the Water during all of his combats.


You can get the equivalent of Weapon Finesse by adding the Feycraft template (DMGII) to two light weapons, such as kukris.

Good call. A cheaper way to effectively use Weapon Finesse. Although, you were just talking about how you need all the damage boosts you can get with TWF ... and Feycraft Kukris only do 1d3 damage instead of 1d4.


On the other hand, many of WotC's examples are outright wrong or illegal, like the Green Star Adept example character that doesn't qualify for GSA, or any of the other dozen or so blatent mistakes made. Its possible that WotC, in there infinite and far-reaching wisdom neglected to remember that Haste attacks don't stack with other Haste effects when creating these items...

Well, that's why I used those items as evidence for RAI, not RAW. But the RAW debate has, in the past, been inconclusive, due to the vague wording of the Speed weapon enhancement ("similar effects").

Dorna
2010-07-26, 04:07 PM
Ok.. you mean i should try something like this:

1 Weapon Focus / Two Weapon Fighting
2
3 Adaptive Style
4
5 Ironheart Aura
6 Stormguard Warrior
7
8
9 Imp Crit / Combat Reflexes

Wearing Gloves of the balanced Hand and two Enervating Kukris?

I'd have something aroung 16 agi/str at level 9..
Would that work or is it more like 'Woah! This Character is a total waste of space in the group! even a commoner with a fork would do better!' ;)

Draz74
2010-07-26, 04:55 PM
Ok.. you mean i should try something like this:

1 Weapon Focus / Two Weapon Fighting
2
3 Adaptive Style
4
5 Ironheart Aura
6 Stormguard Warrior
7
8
9 Imp Crit / Combat Reflexes

Wearing Gloves of the balanced Hand and two Enervating Kukris?

I'd have something aroung 16 agi/str at level 9..
Would that work or is it more like 'Woah! This Character is a total waste of space in the group! even a commoner with a fork would do better!' ;)

That all looks pretty solid except for Weapon Focus, which is still a weak option. Though I'm blanking out on other really great options for this build to replace it with.

Greenish
2010-07-26, 05:12 PM
If you dip two levels of fighter you can get both Stormguard Warrior and High sword low axe running which could be pretty sweetHigh Sword Low Axe is a poor man's Knock-Down.

Darrin
2010-07-26, 05:42 PM
Except that he can't be in Punishing Stance if he's in Blood in the Water. And he'll generally be in Blood in the Water during all of his combats.


Ah, should have checked the previous posts before jumping in. Actually, I try and stay away from anything that depends on rolling a crit. I'll take guaranteed damage every round over sometimes-damage every once in a while. However, I haven't done the math for Punishing Stance vs. Blood in the Water.



Good call. A cheaper way to effectively use Weapon Finesse. Although, you were just talking about how you need all the damage boosts you can get with TWF ... and Feycraft Kukris only do 1d3 damage instead of 1d4.


Yeah, but only -0.5 damage on average, which may be negligible when you add in the rest of your bonuses. And there are easier ways to make up that -1 damage than there are for freeing up a feat slot.

Dorna
2010-07-26, 06:32 PM
That all looks pretty solid except for Weapon Focus, which is still a weak option. Though I'm blanking out on other really great options for this build to replace it with.

You mentioned 'Stand Still' earlier.. that might be an option. Stop your opponent to move away after building up Combat Rhythm.

AslanCross
2010-07-26, 06:44 PM
No! TWF needs all the bonus damage they can get. Even without TWF, this is the bread-and-butter stance most Warblades should be spending the majority of their time in. The odds of Scent really being useful are pretty low.



Agreed. If there's any need for special senses, Hearing the Air is better.

Draz74
2010-07-26, 07:04 PM
Agreed. If there's any need for special senses, Hearing the Air is better.

True, but I'm not sure this particular Warblade is planning to get enough Diamond Mind stuff to meet the prerequisites for Hearing the Air. (Though, Bounding Assault would also be a fairly nice maneuver to have.)

Snake-Aes
2010-07-26, 07:08 PM
True, but I'm not sure this particular Warblade is planning to get enough Diamond Mind stuff to meet the prerequisites for Hearing the Air. (Though, Bounding Assault would also be a fairly nice maneuver to have.)

I did not read this.

Dorna
2010-07-27, 04:31 AM
Ok.. this is what it looks now:

Combat Reflexes
Improved Critical
Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus
Adaptive Style
Ironheart Aura
Stormguard Warrior


Moment of Perfect Mind (Diamond Mind) (Counter Level 1)
Wall of Blades (Iron Heart) (Counter Level 2)
Iron Heart Surge (Iron Heart) (Level 3)
Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw) (Boost Level 1)
Wolf Fang Strike (Tiger Claw) (Strike Level 1)
Death From Above (Tiger Claw) (Strike Level 4)
Leading the Attack (White Raven) (Strike Level 1)
Blood in the Water (Tiger Claw) (Stance Level 1)
Hunter's Sense (Tiger Claw) (Stance Level 1)


Abilities at level 9:
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 11

Dualwielding Enervating Kukris and Wearing Gloves of the balanced Hand
I just got 36000g to spend, so the Boots of Speed are out of my budget for the moment. (weapons + gloves = 24000 if im right)
Ok.. i got 12000 left, but such funny things like armor seem more usefull to me.
Any advices? Or are there still mistakes in my planning so far?

Frog Dragon
2010-07-27, 06:17 AM
Otherwise good except that Weapon Focus is still terrible.

Dorna
2010-07-27, 06:31 AM
Otherwise good except that Weapon Focus is still terrible.

If someones got a better idea: I'm open to erverything..
Stand Still?

Mongoose87
2010-07-27, 07:59 AM
If someones got a better idea: I'm open to erverything..
Stand Still?

Stand still is awesome, with reach weapons. Not nearly as good with TWF.

Dorna
2010-07-27, 08:07 AM
Stand still is awesome, with reach weapons. Not nearly as good with TWF.

Yeah. Thats true. I'm just looking for an alternative feat.
.. or i should get some reeaal big kukris ;)

Draz74
2010-07-27, 10:37 AM
Dualwielding Enervating Kukris and Wearing Gloves of the balanced Hand
I just got 36000g to spend, so the Boots of Speed are out of my budget for the moment. (weapons + gloves = 24000 if im right)
Ok.. i got 12000 left, but such funny things like armor seem more usefull to me.

Hmmm, uh oh ... I hadn't paid attention to your budget constraints before.

Weapons cannot gain special abilities unless they first have a +1 bonus on them. So an Enervating Kukri (or, more accurately, a +1 Enervating Kukri) is going to cost you 18300 gp, not 8300 gp. (You would have had the same problem with Speed weapons too.)

Honestly, Level 9 is really early to afford a +3-equivalent weapon. You're probably best off sticking with boring weapons, and buying a ton of small-bonus magic items in other areas. (AC boosts, save boosts, and Strength/Dexterity boosts being the most obvious three categories.)

Though if you want one kukri to be +2-equivalent (i.e. +1 with a +1-special ability, cheaper than Enervating), that might be reasonable at this level too. Possible options include Bloodfeeding (use up your "blood points" to double effect when you get a crit), Slow Burst, or Weakening (all in the MIC).

EDIT: Also,


Moment of Perfect Mind (Diamond Mind) (Counter Level 1)
Wall of Blades (Iron Heart) (Counter Level 2)
Iron Heart Surge (Iron Heart) (Level 3)
Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw) (Boost Level 1)
Wolf Fang Strike (Tiger Claw) (Strike Level 1)
Death From Above (Tiger Claw) (Strike Level 4)
Leading the Attack (White Raven) (Strike Level 1)
Blood in the Water (Tiger Claw) (Stance Level 1)
Hunter's Sense (Tiger Claw) (Stance Level 1)

Leading the Attack is good at low levels, but is underwhelming at Level 9. Trade it out for White Raven Tactics or Ruby Nightmare Blade or something. If you trade it for something from Diamond Mind, I'd also switch Hunter's Sense back to Punishing Stance; because when you get to Level 10, you can pick up Hearing the Air as your new stance.

Also, what happened to Dancing Mongoose? Put it back! It's your favorite maneuver of all! :smallbiggrin:

Dorna
2010-07-27, 12:06 PM
Damn.. i forgot, that an item need to be +1 + the bonus.
I'll look in the MIC later. Thanks for your help so far ;)

I guess, i have to re-read the whole stances/maneuvers again. Thats really a lot stuff, when you play with ToB for the first time ;)

Dancing Mongoose is still in my concept. Just a copy and paste mistake.

Dorna
2010-07-28, 10:13 AM
Bloodfeedings sounds interesting. Is the bonus-dmg really doubled when critting?

Keld Denar
2010-07-28, 10:39 AM
Do you mean Bodyfeeder?

Dorna
2010-07-28, 10:49 AM
Nope. Bloodfeeding. Stack up Bloodpoints and use em to make extra dmg

Draz74
2010-07-28, 11:57 AM
Bloodfeedings sounds interesting. Is the bonus-dmg really doubled when critting?

It's bonus damage. Not in the form of bonus damage dice. Therefore, it should be multiplied on a critical hit.

(Anyway, Bloodfeeding is a frighteningly useless ability unless you can combo it with critical hits like this.)

Hiro Hackworth
2010-08-07, 01:32 PM
Warblade TWF in Pathfinder
Created @ Level 3, currently at level 5, build planned out to level 9
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus-Rapier, Weapon Finesse
Maneuvers: Stone Bones, Punishing Stance, Wolf Fang Strike, Steely Strike, Steel Wind, Disarming Strike
@ Level 5:
Feats: Two Weapon Defense, Quick Draw
Manuevers: Bonecrusher, Blood in the Water, Wall of Blades (forgot Steely Strike)
Weapon loadout is either Rapier/Dagger or Rapier/Rapier
Build as planned:
Level 6: Insightful Strike (This is the weakest stage of the build)
Level 7: Lightning Recovery, Weapon Swap (this is where Quick Draw becomes useful)
Level 8: Death from Above
Level 9: Improved Critical-Rapier, Dancing Mongoose, Combat Reflexes
At first, I considered this build to be based around TWF. My discovery of Bonecrusher in ToB, however, caused me to revise this to crit maximimazation.

Greenish
2010-08-07, 01:39 PM
Feats: Two Weapon Defense, Quick DrawYeah, neither of these is very good in 3.5, I should point out. (Can't recall if they're changed in PF.)

1 AC for a feat is a poor trade, and Least Crystal of Returning gets you Quick Draw for 500gp.

Siosilvar
2010-08-07, 01:40 PM
Yeah, neither of these is very good in 3.5, I should point out. (Can't recall if they're changed in PF.)

1 AC for a feat is a poor trade, and Least Crystal of Returning gets you Quick Draw for 500gp.

Not to mention anybody with a BAB of +1 or more can draw a weapon as a free action as part of moving.

EDIT: Two with TWF.

Hiro Hackworth
2010-08-07, 01:44 PM
Yeah, neither of these is very good in 3.5, I should point out. (Can't recall if they're changed in PF.)

1 AC for a feat is a poor trade, and Least Crystal of Returning gets you Quick Draw for 500gp.

Magic items are rather rare in my campaign, which is balanced out by larger ability score upgrades (+1 to two abilities instead of one at level 4)
And my AC at level 4 was terrrible: 15.

Hiro Hackworth
2010-08-16, 01:41 AM
By the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth! How did I not read the text of Iron Heart Surge? Now that I'm past this tremendous oversight, Insightful Strike is straight out and Iron Heart Surge shall take it's place @ level 6.

T.G. Oskar
2010-08-16, 08:00 AM
By the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth! How did I not read the text of Iron Heart Surge? Now that I'm past this tremendous oversight, Insightful Strike is straight out and Iron Heart Surge shall take it's place @ level 6.

That is understood. IHS is usually an ability that you'll love to have.

As for the OP: I have to agree on the consensus. Weapon Focus is a bad idea for the character compared to other feats. Feycraft weapons...not that much, since Feycraft will effectively become a Str->Dex exchange for a measly -1 to max damage, which will be easily compensated later on.

As for replacement feats for WF, you might want to consider Expert Tactician (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Expert_Tactician) as a 3rd level feat (not higher, since you'll need those feats for Stormguard Warrior and Imp. Critical). Your feat list would look as follows:

1st- Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd- Expert Tactician
5th- Ironheart Aura
6th- Stormguard Warrior
9th- Adaptive Style, Imp. Critical (anything)

The rationale under Expert Tactician goes as follows: Combat Rhythm, your maneuver by means of Stormguard Warrior, will add +3 extra damage when compared with Expert Tactician, but the latter is a wide-area benefit which adds a further +2 to your attack (and as a user of a TWF routine, you'll want as much bonuses to attack rolls as you can), effectively "nulling" your penalty to attack rolls. Furthermore, it is a circumstance bonus, which is a rare stacking bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#circumstanceModifier) which aids your allies (even the spellcasters, with a +2 to their touch attack spells and ranged touch attacks). Not only it is better than Weapon Focus, it also makes you a better party player.

As for maneuvers: you have to get at least Punishing Stance to qualify for Ironheart Aura. You give another nice benefit if you're under Punishing Stance (the Ironheart Aura gives a +2 morale bonus to saves on adjacent allies, but mostly on you), but you really want to qualify for Ironheart Aura ASAP. Otherwise, pretty similar to the vanilla TWF Warblade build. I also consider Leading the Attack a necessary evil until later so as to get White Raven Tactics. I'd remove Death from Above from the list, since it doesn't take advantage of your combat methodology and by the time you might want to take it, you'll probably have enough Tiger Claw maneuvers to get Feral Death Blow which is ages better. You might also, as recommended, get enough Diamond Mind maneuvers as you go: the idea is that you want Time Stands Still as one of your 9th level maneuvers, and you want stuff like Diamond Defense, Hearing the Air/Pearl of Black Doubt and other nifty maneuvers from that discipline.