PDA

View Full Version : Character with the biggest code of conduct ever?



Morph Bark
2010-07-25, 01:26 PM
So looking over Exalted feats, Bloodline feats, classes with alignment restrictions, etcetera... I came to wonder how one could make a character with the most intricate ginormous code of conduct ever. So yeah, what build, through use of classes, PrCs, feats, templates and whatever else there is, would have such a massive code of conduct?

tyckspoon
2010-07-25, 01:31 PM
An Exalted Paladin/Knight with all of the Vows would be a pretty good start, with a requirement to be absurdly good, shun all material wealth, and with completely ridiculous restrictions on what he is allowed to do to an opponent (IIRC, for example, Knights are not allowed to offer or take advantage of flanking or strike against a prone opponent.) Plus restrictions against.. whatever the heck it is the less-notable Vows tell you not to do. Drugs (with a definition that incidentally includes monsters poisoning you, I believe) and sex, I think.

Ranos
2010-07-25, 01:34 PM
Give him every vow, a level in knight, a level in paladin, the Ordered Chaos feat, a level in paladin of freedom. Can't think of anything else right now.

A cleric level will also give him one god's dogma to follow. Now to find the most complicated dogma in the pantheon.

Evard
2010-07-25, 01:45 PM
I haven't read all the vows but...

Make some personal ones that don't come from classes... :D yay for roleplay

>Vegan
>Must sleep on his stomach so that the Thunder God wont throw lightning at his belly button
>Must try to negotiate during the first round of battle to try and have no fighting take place
>Must break all vows once a month to keep them in perspective (the ones with strong wills will come back to their path)

Optimystik
2010-07-25, 01:53 PM
>Vegan
>Must sleep on his stomach so that the Thunder God wont throw lightning at his belly button

Very good point, we can throw some Wu Jen in the build for Taboos.

Also, the Saint template.

aivanther
2010-07-25, 01:55 PM
Give him every vow, a level in knight, a level in paladin, the Ordered Chaos feat, a level in paladin of freedom. Can't think of anything else right now.

A cleric level will also give him one god's dogma to follow. Now to find the most complicated dogma in the pantheon.

Can't do that, knights have to be lawful, and paladins of freedom have to be chaotic good, and ordered chaos doesn't make you chaotic simply not suffer from using chaotic items and taking abyssal heritor feats.

I'd go with everyone else: knight, vows, paladin. Samurai and monk both have some form "do this or lose it" abilities. Wu Jen's taboos would get restrictive as well. Apostle of Peace prohibits even armor. Risen Martyr (instant annihilation for any evil act).

I'm sure there's more but can't think of them off the top of my head.

Evard
2010-07-25, 02:16 PM
Risen Martyr is an awesome class... They go out the best way :D

Stompy
2010-07-25, 02:30 PM
Kensai, because nothing says oath like "do what this NPC says".

EDIT: and make that NPC cause code clashes at every turn. (hell, I believe Complete Warrior actually suggests that in the Kensai sidebar. :smallbiggrin:)

EDIT2: If we can use 3.0 sources I think there were even more vows over there, including vow of silence.

Greenish
2010-07-25, 02:44 PM
(IIRC, for example, Knights are not allowed to offer or take advantage of flanking or strike against a prone opponent.)Knight's Code:

Never use the flanking bonus (you can flank with someone else, the enemy can be flanked, but if you choose to benefit from the +2 to hit, you fall). Amusingly, you could still use Sneak Attack.
Never attack flat-footed opponent. If your enemy is balancing with less than 5 ranks in Balance, you fall for attacking him.
Never deal lethal damage to helpless foe. You can keep beating them as long as you want for nonlethal, though.


Samurai and monk both have some form "do this or lose it" abilities.The only thing monks lose (by becoming non-lawful) is the ability to take more monk levels. Yes, falling as a monk is actually good for you.

[Edit]:
EDIT2: If we can use 3.0 sources I think there were even more vows over there, including vow of silence.Buomman, racial vow of silence.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-25, 02:49 PM
Take a level in druid for extra kicks. If you don't mind falling as a paladin/druid.

So:
Buoman Saint Druid 1/Monk 1/Samurai 1/Paladin 1/Knight 1/Wu Gen 1/Kensai 1/Risen Martyr 1

With all of the vows. Missing anything?

Greenish
2010-07-25, 02:51 PM
Take a level in druid for extra kicks. If you don't mind falling as a paladin/druid.

So:
Buoman Saint Druid 1/Monk 1/Samurai 1/Paladin 1/Knight 1/Wu Gen 1/Kensai 1/Risen Martyr 1

With all of the vows. Missing anything?Incarnates. If you take Law Incarnate instead of paladin to that, it, doesn't fall straight away.

aivanther
2010-07-25, 02:55 PM
The only thing monks lose (by becoming non-lawful) is the ability to take more monk levels. Yes, falling as a monk is actually good for you.


Yes, but we're only talking about constraints, not what happens if you fall.

After all, a Samurai gets better to after he falls and takes Ronin.

Morph Bark
2010-07-25, 03:00 PM
Incarnates. If you take Law Incarnate instead of paladin to that, it, doesn't fall straight away.

Dump Druid and take Soulborn instead so you can still get the Vows?

Stompy
2010-07-25, 03:47 PM
not really a vow, but if you take cleric with a god of "don't do this or I take away your powers", does that count?

The Glyphstone
2010-07-25, 04:20 PM
That's DM adjuncation though - we're going for classes that have explicitly defined mechanical codes of conduct.

Ranos
2010-07-25, 04:29 PM
Ordered chaos doesn't make you chaotic simply not suffer from using chaotic items and taking abyssal heritor feats.

Are you absolutely sure about that ? It says that any effects that are keyed to alignment work as if you were chaotic as well as your own alignment, then it goes on to say in the examples that you could take the Primordial Scion feat despite its chaotic alignment prerequisite. From that, I conclude that effect includes feat prerequisites. And from that, it's not too much of a leap to say that it includes class prerequisites.

So you could take potentially conflicting codes from a lawful class and a chaotic class. Maybe we could even make a character who can't act at all without breaking one of his codes.

chiasaur11
2010-07-25, 04:38 PM
Man, by the end of this, the poor dope won't even be able to sneeze freely.

Continue.

Morph Bark
2010-07-25, 04:53 PM
not really a vow, but if you take cleric with a god of "don't do this or I take away your powers", does that count?

If there are any gods who do this by standard (not just DMs ruling it), other than Good Gods saying "don't do Evil" or Chaotic Good Gods being against Lawfulness to a degree (since they allow Neutral Good clerics), sure.

Ravens_cry
2010-07-25, 05:09 PM
If you add this class from a 3rd party developer for Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/shaman), they won't even be able to eat trail rations.

Ranos
2010-07-25, 05:17 PM
Oh, I just remembered Oriental adventures samurai adds obedience to a lord and all the basic samurai things with honor above all. Dishonor means seppuku or disgrace and ronin status.

Shintao monk from the same books forbids the poor guy from eating meat, commiting murder or theft, marrying, causing unecessary violence, gluttony, drunkeness, accumulating wealth, or becoming involved in politics.

erikun
2010-07-25, 05:25 PM
Healer has vows similar to the Druid.

Is there really any point in making a Paladin/Druid or something similar? A Paladin who has taken levels in Druid has already fallen and lost their powers, as has a LG Druid. There isn't a code of conduct anymore if you've already violated it and lost the benefits of the class.

Critical
2010-07-25, 05:31 PM
Buomman as a race to have a vow of silence?

Optimystik
2010-07-25, 05:56 PM
Buomman as a race to have a vow of silence?

That's a good one; I can't think of anyone else with a racial vow offhand.


Is there really any point in making a Paladin/Druid or something similar? A Paladin who has taken levels in Druid has already fallen and lost their powers, as has a LG Druid. There isn't a code of conduct anymore if you've already violated it and lost the benefits of the class.

There are LN and NG paladins in Dragon #310. They also have codes of conduct.

One thing I can't figure out is how to combine Monk-Druid with Healer and Saint.

Morph Bark
2010-07-25, 06:08 PM
Perhaps it would be handier to make a list of base classes, PrCs and feats with a code of conduct tied to them?

Race: Buomman.
Classes: Paladin, Druid, Samurai (CW), Healer (MiniHB), Knight (PHBII).
PrCs: Risen Martyr (BoED), Kensai (CW), Knight Protector (CW), Fist of the Forest (CC).
Feats: The "Vow" feats (BoED).


One question: are the Buomman actually capable of speaking, or not? If they are, what happens if they break their vow of silence? Why do they even have one, fluff-wise?

Galileo
2010-07-25, 06:15 PM
Buomman can speak, but they take 1 point of Wisdom damage and -1 on most rolls for 24 hours every time they do. Singing is fine, though.

Critical
2010-07-25, 06:18 PM
Perhaps it would be handier to make a list of base classes, PrCs and feats with a code of conduct tied to them?

Race: Buomman.
Classes: Paladin, Druid, Samurai, Healer, Knight.
PrCs: Risen Martyr, Kensai (don't know myself), Fist of the Forest (wasn't mentioned yet).
Feats: The "Vow" feats.


One question: are the Buomman actually capable of speaking, or not? If they are, what happens if they break their vow of silence? Why do they even have one, fluff-wise?
Forgot Wu Jen over there, also, a Cleric of some strict deity would fit too, I believe.
As for Buommans, they're extraplanar beings... I guess, that's just how they roll. :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

EDIT: Oh, and I just realized I was swordsage'd on the Buommans.

Ingus
2010-07-25, 06:19 PM
Take a level in druid for extra kicks. If you don't mind falling as a paladin/druid.

So:
Buoman Saint Druid 1/Monk 1/Samurai 1/Paladin 1/Knight 1/Wu Gen 1/Kensai 1/Risen Martyr 1

With all of the vows. Missing anything?

This, plus Greenish's idea, plus Deneith Warden (Dragonmarked). It has not a written code of conduct, but members enter the military ranks of House Deneir and have to behave, to not being kicked out.

Flickerdart
2010-07-25, 06:22 PM
Guys, you forget.

Blessed by Tem-Et Nu.

balistafreak
2010-07-25, 06:43 PM
Guys, you forget.

Blessed by Tem-Et Nu.

Piss off Tem-Et Nu? Too bad. Take damage as if bitten by a hippopotamus.

AslanCross
2010-07-25, 07:01 PM
Perhaps it would be handier to make a list of base classes, PrCs and feats with a code of conduct tied to them?

Race: Buomman.
Classes: Paladin, Druid, Samurai, Healer, Knight.
PrCs: Risen Martyr, Kensai (don't know myself), Fist of the Forest (wasn't mentioned yet).
Feats: The "Vow" feats.


One question: are the Buomman actually capable of speaking, or not? If they are, what happens if they break their vow of silence? Why do they even have one, fluff-wise?

They can speak, but they simply don't in the way other races do. They get penalties, as mentioned above. Their fluff reason for the vow is something about contemplation and meditation, if I'm not mistaken.

Stompy
2010-07-25, 07:35 PM
PrCs: Risen Martyr, Kensai (don't know myself), Fist of the Forest (wasn't mentioned yet).

Kensai is from Complete Warrior.

EDIT: Knight Protector is from there too, can be taken by a LG (or LN) PC, and has a code as well. The requirements are a :smallfurious:.

Urpriest
2010-07-26, 12:57 AM
Fist of the Forest: can't sleep indoors or buy/ask for food.

Connington
2010-07-26, 01:15 AM
Shintao monk from the same books forbids the poor guy from eating meat, commiting murder or theft, marrying, causing unecessary violence, gluttony, drunkeness, accumulating wealth, or becoming involved in politics.

But that's almost an exact job description for PCs! If you aren't slaughtering semi-sapient creatures and taking their stuff, you're probably struggling to get through a DM's attempts to represent a popculture version of some society without referring to any important NPCs as "quest givers" or "Lord Nickname".

WinWin
2010-07-26, 01:47 AM
I am sure there is a way to throw a geas and multiple mark of justice spells into the mix.

Coidzor
2010-07-26, 02:50 AM
Xorvintaal Exarch doesn't add a code of conduct, but it does make one... beholden to a dwagon.

Also, Mineral Warrior requires a year and a day of service to a wizard.

Both LA+1 templates.

I'm liking the idea so far though. :smallbiggrin::smallamused:

Shintao Monk a PrC or a monk variant? Because that's definitely one of the more restrictive ones, taking care of several of the exalted vows as well, I believe.

Morph Bark
2010-07-26, 03:43 AM
Guys, you forget.

Blessed by Tem-Et Nu.

Source is Deities and Demigods, I presume? Can you be LG with that PrC/feat? That would fit with what we got so far.


Kensai is from Complete Warrior.

EDIT: Knight Protector is from there too, can be taken by a LG (or LN) PC, and has a code as well. The requirements are a :smallfurious:.

Knight Protector it is then. :smallamused:


Xorvintaal Exarch doesn't add a code of conduct, but it does make one... beholden to a dwagon.

Also, Mineral Warrior requires a year and a day of service to a wizard.

Both LA+1 templates.

I'm liking the idea so far though. :smallbiggrin::smallamused:

Shintao Monk a PrC or a monk variant? Because that's definitely one of the more restrictive ones, taking care of several of the exalted vows as well, I believe.

Interesting. I didn't know Mineral Warrior has such requirements. You learn something new everyday!


Also, the idea is that the character still has a code of conduct. You no longer have the code of conduct once you've fallen off of it. Otherwise we could have a Paladin/Barbarian/Hexblade/Druid/Monk/Bard/Samurai - and Monk doesn't have a code of conduct. Alignment requirement =/= code of conduct.

Ranos
2010-07-26, 03:43 AM
Shintao Monk a PrC or a monk variant? Because that's definitely one of the more restrictive ones, taking care of several of the exalted vows as well, I believe.
It's a PrC

Coidzor
2010-07-26, 04:20 AM
Also, the idea is that the character still has a code of conduct. You no longer have the code of conduct once you've fallen off of it. Otherwise we could have a Paladin/Barbarian/Hexblade/Druid/Monk/Bard/Samurai - and Monk doesn't have a code of conduct. Alignment requirement =/= code of conduct.

Monk might be necessary for the shintao monk PrC though, which enables one to cover most of the exalted vows without using up finite feat slots.

And a shintao monk + fist of the forest (if possible to combine) can only eat fish that he has caught or plant matter that he has obtained by foraging. Add in Wu Jen 1 and a taboo against foraging for plant matter* and you can make him only capable of eating fish he's caught, or just make him a complete vegan (though I think you could probably accomplish that part with just Wu Jen 1's taboo...). Add in some kind of restriction from taking any form of life himself and you've got Mr. Ring of Sustenance.

*or make him some kind of race that is carnivorous only and you can forbid fish and then he can't eat at all in less steps. I know, being a carnivore technically isn't a code of conduct so much as a biological fact...

hamishspence
2010-07-26, 04:26 AM
Source is Deities and Demigods, I presume? Can you be LG with that PrC/feat? That would fit with what we got so far.

Source is Sandstorm. Tem-Et-Nu is a deity of rivers. Among other things, her followers get the ability to rebuke hippos.

Skeppio
2010-07-26, 04:35 AM
Perhaps add Dragonborn, adding Bahamut's code of conduct? Dunno if this'd remove the Buomman vow of silence though.

Morph Bark
2010-07-26, 04:40 AM
Monk might be necessary for the shintao monk PrC though, which enables one to cover most of the exalted vows without using up finite feat slots.

True. I mainly referred to Monk there because it was mentioned before, but Bard, Barbarian and Hexblade don't have codes of conduct either, despite having alignment restrictions.


And a shintao monk + fist of the forest (if possible to combine) can only eat fish that has been caught or plant matter that has been foraged. Add in Wu Jen 1 and a taboo against foraging for plant matter* and you can make him only capable of eating fish he's caught. Add in some kind of restriction from taking any form of life himself and you've got Mr. Ring of Sustenance.

Heh, will be extra tough for someone with Vow of Poverty then. They'd need to get to level 5 before dying of famine. Unless others would forage plant matter for you (if that doesn't go against the code of conduct at least).

Coidzor
2010-07-26, 04:53 AM
Heh, will be extra tough for someone with Vow of Poverty then. They'd need to get to level 5 before dying of famine. Unless others would forage plant matter for you (if that doesn't go against the code of conduct at least).

Level 5 of what? Or does Vow of Poverty obviate the need to eat after hitting ECL 5?

You need 3 levels of monk in order to take shintao monk 1, which is all one needs. So that's 4 levels devoted to getting the anti-adventurer code of conduct.

Similarly, it takes 4 levels of Wu Jen to get 2 taboos, though Wu Jen 1 as a dip works to get a single taboo, though it of course, is open-ended. Need to figure out a good general-purpose one in addition to one to really cover bases in a specific code of conduct build.

Samurai 1 + Paladin 1 are not mutually exclusive. Lawful Only + Lawful Good. And you can never willingly commit a chaotic act or an evil act. I don't think chaotic acts are ever detailed anywhere, but evil acts are dealt with in great detail by several books.

Kobold-Bard
2010-07-26, 04:59 AM
Piss off Tem-Et Nu? Too bad. Take damage as if bitten by a hippopotamus.

Is that the actual rule? Because that's the most awesome D&D rule I've ever seen if it is.

Have Healer levels been mentioned yet? Forbidden to not heal non-evil NPCs is always fun.

Morph Bark
2010-07-26, 05:11 AM
Level 5 of what? Or does Vow of Poverty obviate the need to eat after hitting ECL 5?

The level you take Vow of Poverty at you are effectively level 1 for the purpose of determining the benefits you get from Vow of Poverty. Four levels after taking the feat (effectively level 5) you no longer need to eat or drink, at least as long as you abide by the vow.


You need 3 levels of monk in order to take shintao monk 1, which is all one needs. So that's 4 levels devoted to getting the anti-adventurer code of conduct.

Reading over it, I wouldn't call the Shintao Monk's code of conduct anti-adventurer-like. They can still use violence, but must avoid killing. Dealing loads of nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes could help that.


Similarly, it takes 4 levels of Wu Jen to get 2 taboos, though Wu Jen 1 as a dip works to get a single taboo, though it of course, is open-ended. Need to figure out a good general-purpose one in addition to one to really cover bases in a specific code of conduct build.

Of the listed examples, "Cannot bathe", "Cannot cut her hair", "Cannot touch a dead body" and "Cannot light a fire" seem like the only non-silly ones that aren't already covered by other codes of conduct or vows.


...this makes me think a Monk/Wu Jen with "Cannot touch a dead body" will have a hard time if they strike real fast. They might accidentally hit their enemy after dealing the deathblow!

Coidzor
2010-07-26, 05:20 AM
Just some musing over the Sacred Vows...

Abstinence - Too lulzy not to take if one's throwing away feats for sacred vow, which hey if you're doing this, you are. What with being poisoned being a violation of your vow. Shintao Monk also discourages/forbids drunkenness, but this goes even further as one is not allowed to even touch alcohol or chocolate.

Chastity - Almost covered by the Shintao Monk, but that's just marriage rather than any kind of sexual contact. (So, no more called shots to the groin for you, in either direction. And lord help a character with this if BoEF spells leak into the campaign world :smallyuk:)

Nonviolence - Shintao Monk's no murder +1, no harm or suffering, and your allies can't either, though they're punished rather than it breaking your code... Sorta nebulous. May or may not count as extending your code to all of your companions for fun all around. (If so, any way to make others take your code of conduct by association?:smallconfused:)

Obedience - Cheaper to dip OA Samurai or failing that, take Kensai. They're about the same thing, really.

Peace - Another way to starve yourself to death. You can't harm a living creature. So you can only eat objects like fungi or plants. Add in being a carnivore plus fist of the forest so you can't have someone else kill your food for you...:smallwink:

Poverty - In order to really gimp yourself by messing with OA Samurai dips (due to the ancestral daisho class feature being a requirement to own without violating the code of bushido there). So, doesn't mix with Samurai unless CW Samurai has a similar code without the class feature possessions. (Can lead to death via starvation in a restricted diet build. :smallwink: If you want to live, have the impossible diet kick in at or after the 5th level taken after taking VoP)

Purity - No dead stuff. Not even food. (So, if you're a carnivore with fist of the forest...:smallamused:) Can be replicated by a listed example taboo from Wu Jen though, so, yeah.

Yeah, sorry, I think I got on a food kick here.


The level you take Vow of Poverty at you are effectively level 1 for the purpose of determining the benefits you get from Vow of Poverty. Four levels after taking the feat (effectively level 5) you no longer need to eat or drink, at least as long as you abide by the vow.

Ooo, that is nasty. Also, weird in the extreme that it doesn't count ECL but rather levels gained after taking the feat. :smallconfused:


Reading over it, I wouldn't call the Shintao Monk's code of conduct anti-adventurer-like. They can still use violence, but must avoid killing. Dealing loads of nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes could help that.
Read the part about not being allowed to accumulate wealth. It's not a hard and fast cap on personal possessions like vow of poverty, but it definitely is a no to, y'know, hoarding up loot.


"Cannot touch a dead body"
Vow of Purity does that, actually. Of course... the Wu Jen taboo version would make it so that a caster couldn't bring a dead character back to life...:smallamused:

Though it'd be a bit problematic for a clergy-wide vow due to no one being able to provide funerary rites.

Morph Bark
2010-07-26, 05:30 AM
*imagines an Unarmed Swordsage with Vow of Purity and Vow of Chastity in a game that used BoEF*

Yowch.

Coidzor
2010-07-26, 05:34 AM
*imagines an Unarmed Swordsage with Vow of Purity and Vow of Chastity in a game that used BoEF*

Yowch.

Ooof. I am sorry for that. :smallfrown:

Are there any other feats other than the sacred vows that place restrictions on a character's conduct though?

Morph Bark
2010-07-26, 05:44 AM
Ooof. I am sorry for that. :smallfrown:

Are there any other feats other than the sacred vows that place restrictions on a character's conduct though?

Eh, at least I didn't imagine him trying to fight an amazonian cult of Lilim, Succubi, Erinyes, Pleasure Devils and Nymphs... well, until now.

I don't know about other vows, but I just re-checked the Voluntary Poverty stuff in BoED. Turns out I had it wrong all these years: it doesn't matter at which level you take the feat, you gain all the bonuses of it as appropriate for your level. Plus, you get a bonus Exalted feat at every other even-numbered level, which could be used for other Vows.

Do Abyssal Heritor feats perhaps have any restrictions on conduct? Something I should look into.

Coidzor
2010-07-26, 05:56 AM
Eh, at least I didn't imagine him trying to fight an amazonian cult of Lilim, Succubi, Erinyes, Pleasure Devils and Nymphs... well, until now.
OOF! :smalleek:


I don't know about other vows, but I just re-checked the Voluntary Poverty stuff in BoED. Turns out I had it wrong all these years: it doesn't matter at which level you take the feat, you gain all the bonuses of it as appropriate for your level. Plus, you get a bonus Exalted feat at every other even-numbered level, which could be used for other Vows.
...Ah, so no real need to feel like one's feat-starved in regards to sacred vows then.

Do Abyssal Heritor feats perhaps have any restrictions on conduct? Something I should look into.

Looking over them and haven't seen any yet. Aside from needing Ordered Chaos in order to keep from being forcefully given a chaotic alignment that you can't get rid of even if you continue to willfully and continually act in only a lawful manner if you take more than one abyssal heritor feat.

Nothing for the aberrant feats I could find either.

Psyx
2010-07-26, 06:12 AM
Paladin/Knight/Wu-Jen/Kensai/Samurai with all the vows, exalted feats, Nymph's Kiss [has to maintain that relationship!]. Probably go for a Dwarf as well, for their racial habits/code.

Coidzor
2010-07-26, 06:44 AM
For Flaws... some interesting ones. All found via this link http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/featsform.pl

Aligned Devotion (Drag326): Unable to heal someone 2 steps away from your alignment (Oops, sorry Mr. CG Bard, My healer spells don't work on you. Do I break my healer's vow nao?)

Arcane Performer (Dragon 324): Have to make a perform check and succeed in order to cast a spell.

Bravado (Dragon 328): No ability to use the withdraw action anymore & No dodge bonuses.

Chivalrous Courtesy (Drag324): Penalty for attacking opposite gender.

Code of Arms (Drag324): Penalty for attacking opponent that isn't armed with a melee weapon. Goes away if it attacks you with a natural weapon.

Honor of The Duel (Drag324): Will save and penalty to attack something that's threatened by another foe. So knight's prohibition against flanking+1.

Honorable Challenge (Drag324): Penalty versus those who haven't explicitly challenged or attacked you.

Implacable (Drag328): Some kinda refusal to retreat. Penalty for moving out of melee combat.

Individualist (Drag329): Penalty for not making one's own arms and armor.

Love of Nature (Drag324): Will save or lose action when trying to attack animal, plant, or vermin creatures.

Pride of Arms (Drag324): Penalties on non-martial weapons.

Solitary Paragon (Drag324): Hi, I'm worse than part of the knight's code of conduct, no flanking benefit, only a penalty.

Weapon Bound (Drag326): Favored weapon of your deity is the only one you can have proficiency in. This doesn't give you proficiency in it.

Zeta Kai
2010-07-26, 07:21 AM
I'd recommend taking as many levels of Wu-Jen as possible, & only dipping into other classes for 1 level each. Every level of Wu-Jen requires a new taboo, IIRC. By level 20, that's a very restrictive class. I've only seen one high-level Wu-Jen in-play before, & it wasn't pretty, due to some poorly-phrased ambitious taboos:

Cannot except healing from another (this was interpreted to extend to potions offered by others).
Cannot deal lethal damage (what's a caster to use on opponents, harsh language?)
Cannot pray indoors (those dungeon crawls had better be short)
Cannot negotiate with evil beings (chosen randomly, 1/3rd of all NPCs will be evil)

hamishspence
2010-07-26, 07:22 AM
Isn't there a Nonlethal Spell somewhere that converts all damage done by the spell to nonlethal damage?



Cannot negotiate with evil beings (chosen randomly, 1/3rd of all NPCs will be evil)


If you go by the DMG random NPC generator- it's 50% of NPCs you meet will be Evil.

Prime32
2010-07-26, 07:27 AM
Is that the actual rule? Because that's the most awesome D&D rule I've ever seen if it is.http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Blessed_By_Tem-Et-Nu


Devote yourself to an Elder Evil so that you have to follow its orders. Then get turned into a voidmind creature so that you can be controlled by mind flayers. Then become a vampire of some kind for their racial taboos.

Morph Bark
2010-07-26, 07:28 AM
I'd recommend taking as many levels of Wu-Jen as possible, & only dipping into other classes for 1 level each. Every level of Wu-Jen requires a new taboo, IIRC. By level 20, that's a very restrictive class.

Every level at which they get a Spell Secret, actually, plus one at level 1.

Those flaws are interesting too... and though UA may suggest no more than two Flaws, might as well add more. :smallamused:

Coidzor
2010-07-26, 07:42 AM
Those flaws are interesting too... and though UA may suggest no more than two Flaws, might as well add more. :smallamused:

There's a few more, Divine Gesture from Dragon #326 which makes arcane spell failure apply to divine spells as well, but those didn't really have enough fluff text to seem like the sort of restrictions of a code. (I just looked over the list of flaws that Realmshelps has, just fyi, in case you want to double check and see if any of 'em seem more appropriate to your aesthetics of the sitch)...

http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/featsform.pl

Still looking for feats that restrict a character other than sacred vows... Maybe true believer related things....hmm...

Dragon might have produced some traits that'd be interesting as well, but of course, they're traits. The unearthed arcana ones don't seem to be conducive to our purpose at first glance.

Adumbration
2010-07-26, 08:10 AM
You can also apprentice yourself to someone via the feats in DMG II. Might be worth looking into organizations as well.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-26, 08:21 AM
Can we take Vow of Obedience, OA Samurai, and Kensai, but choose a different lord/master for each of them?

Douglas
2010-07-26, 08:22 AM
The level you take Vow of Poverty at you are effectively level 1 for the purpose of determining the benefits you get from Vow of Poverty. Four levels after taking the feat (effectively level 5) you no longer need to eat or drink, at least as long as you abide by the vow.
Er, no. Read it again. All benefits of Vow of Poverty are fully retroactive using your entire level, with the single exception of the bonus feats.

Edit: Oh wait, you already noticed. Oops.

Greenish
2010-07-26, 08:24 AM
And a shintao monk + fist of the forest (if possible to combine) can only eat fish that he has caught or plant matter that he has obtained by foraging.Fist of the Forest can also steal or beg for food. Only actually buying it is forbidden.

Person_Man
2010-07-26, 08:30 AM
A lot of people have been going in the direction of Lawful Good codes. I think that devoting yourself fully to a Chaotic Evil code of conduct would be a lot harder. For example, you must always jay walk when crossing the street, you can never pay for anything but must always take what you want, you can never tell the truth, and so on. You'd basically have to travel from town to town killing all of the inhabitants without meaning until some Good adventurers killed you, which is an interesting inversion of Good adventurers who travel from dungeon to dungeon killing all of the inhabitants without meaning until some Evil monster kills them.

That actually sounds like a fun campaign, now that I think of it...

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 08:32 AM
A lot of people have been going in the direction of Lawful Good codes. I think that devoting yourself fully to a Chaotic Evil code of conduct would be a lot harder. For example, you must always jay walk when crossing the street, you can never pay for anything but must always take what you want, you can never tell the truth, and so on. You'd basically have to travel from town to town killing all of the inhabitants without meaning until some Good adventurers killed you, which is an interesting inversion of Good adventurers who travel from dungeon to dungeon killing all of the inhabitants without meaning until some Evil monster kills them.

That actually sounds like a fun campaign, now that I think of it...

The trouble with a chaotic code - when you break it, should you be rewarded or punished?

hamishspence
2010-07-26, 08:35 AM
The Anti-Paladin in Dragon 312 does have a pretty strict CE code. If he teams up with good guys, he must betray them within an hour.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 08:39 AM
The Anti-Paladin in Dragon 312 does have a pretty strict CE code. If he teams up with good guys, he must betray them within an hour.

Sounds pretty rigid (read: lawful) to me. Why an hour? What if he feels like stringing them along longer?

Serpentine
2010-07-26, 08:40 AM
(IIRC, for example, Knights are not allowed to offer or take advantage of flanking or strike against a prone opponent.)
Knight's Code:

Never use the flanking bonus (you can flank with someone else, the enemy can be flanked, but if you choose to benefit from the +2 to hit, you fall). Amusingly, you could still use Sneak Attack.
Never attack flat-footed opponent. If your enemy is balancing with less than 5 ranks in Balance, you fall for attacking him.
Never deal lethal damage to helpless foe. You can keep beating them as long as you want for nonlethal, though.
Not quite. Knights can flank, but they may not personally benefit from flanking. If you do, or if you do anything else against the code, you don't fall - the Knight isn't a religious class. Instead, it "undermines the foundation of confidence and honor that drives you forward" and you lose one use of your Knights Challenge for the day, or take -2 on your attacks and saves for the day if you're out of Challenges.

hamishspence
2010-07-26, 08:41 AM
Sounds pretty rigid (read: lawful) to me. Why an hour? What if he feels like stringing them along longer?

No idea- but I'll look it up. It could be an arbitrary figure designed to minimise the risk of "the Anti-Paladin aiding a Good cause".

The NE Corruptor, by contrast, is much more free to join the party and subvert it from within.

And the LE Despot is only penalized for Chaotic acts, not Good ones.

Not as symmetrical as the Paladin of Tyranny and the Paladin of Slaughter.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 08:44 AM
No idea- but I'll look it up. It could be an arbitrary figure designed to minimise the risk of "the Anti-Paladin aiding a Good cause".

The NE Corruptor, by contrast, is much more free to join the party and subvert it from within.

And the LE Despot is only penalized for Chaotic acts, not Good ones.

So CE has more restrictions than LE?

I can see where Dragon's reputation came from. :smallsigh:

Coidzor
2010-07-26, 08:45 AM
Sounds pretty rigid (read: lawful) to me. Why an hour? What if he feels like stringing them along longer?

ADD, mostly.:smallamused:

Fax Celestis
2010-07-26, 09:59 AM
Needs more Binder influences from poor pacts.

Prime32
2010-07-26, 10:06 AM
Needs more Binder influences from poor pacts.You can accomplish that with those magic teeth.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 10:09 AM
You can accomplish that with those magic teeth.

Not to mention the Binding feats, which still require you to make a Binding check (which you can fail) even without class levels. If we have class levels to spare we can go that route though, but there may be more templates we can stuff in here.

Coidzor
2010-07-26, 10:18 AM
Not to mention the Binding feats, which still require you to make a Binding check (which you can fail) even without class levels. If we have class levels to spare we can go that route though, but there may be more templates we can stuff in here.

Probably are.

If we were going to move away from a humanoid PC-type character, we could possibly stack a whole bunch of things on top of a xorvintaal dragon if it weren't for the fact that being bound to the rules of the game is about as coherent as the purple fishstick lord of the Far Realsm.

Oh man... I just had a painful mental image... Vow of Poverty Dragon....x.x XD

Psyx
2010-07-26, 10:19 AM
I still think that Nymph's Kiss is essential, because it requires maintaining a relationship.

That's far more complex than ANY other code of conduct I've ever known. AND you don't even get to know the full 'code' in advance; potentially 'falling' for no obvious reason. ie Commenting that said nymph's friend appears to have lost weight, or that said nymph's shoes don't look very nice.

:smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 10:36 AM
Oh man... I just had a painful mental image... Vow of Poverty Dragon....x.x XD

He can collect the world's largest stash of simple weapons for his hoard.


I still think that Nymph's Kiss is essential, because it requires maintaining a relationship.

That's far more complex than ANY other code of conduct I've ever known. AND you don't even get to know the full 'code' in advance; potentially 'falling' for no obvious reason. ie Commenting that said nymph's friend appears to have lost weight, or that said nymph's shoes don't look very nice.

:smallbiggrin:

Also, without looking up from your meditations, agree that her new cloak does make her look fat.

OracleofWuffing
2010-07-26, 10:51 AM
Eh, it's not that hard to maintain a relationship with a nymph. Ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta! Mindrape powerrr!

And before we ask how I'm getting that without losing all my vows, uh, er, someone else casted it? :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2010-07-26, 10:54 AM
Eh, it's not that hard to maintain a relationship with a nymph. Ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta! Mindrape powerrr!

And before we ask how I'm getting that without losing all my vows, uh, er, someone else casted it? :smalltongue:

I think Programmed Amnesia might work as well. I believe that's the lesser, neutral version of mindrape and holy mindrape.

How you have a high enough caster/manifester level to do it though... *shrug*

The Dark Fiddler
2010-07-26, 11:02 AM
I think Programmed Amnesia might work as well. I believe that's the lesser, neutral version of mindrape and holy mindrape.

How you have a high enough caster/manifester level to do it though... *shrug*

UMD, obviously.

It'll be tough, but I'd imagine eventually you'd make the check.

Urpriest
2010-07-26, 12:21 PM
I second (third?) the suggestion of Nymph's Kiss + Vow of Chastity.

Morph Bark
2010-07-26, 12:34 PM
I second (third?) the suggestion of Nymph's Kiss + Vow of Chastity.

Makes me wonder if you could reflavour Nymph's kiss to go with other similar creatures... gah. It doesn't help that my current campaign has a cocky pirate prince in it that wants to get a harem.

Lysander
2010-07-26, 12:42 PM
How about a level adjustment? Make them a Zelekhut so they're bound by their very nature to hunt down fugitives from justice.

Morph Bark
2010-07-26, 02:12 PM
How about a level adjustment? Make them a Zelekhut so they're bound by their very nature to hunt down fugitives from justice.

Wouldn't work in combination with any of the others though.


Not to mention the Binding feats, which still require you to make a Binding check (which you can fail) even without class levels. If we have class levels to spare we can go that route though, but there may be more templates we can stuff in here.

With 1 level in Binder and then using the feats that allow non-Binders to bind up to level 3 vestiges, if possible, and then getting the feat that allows a Binder to bind as a binder of two levels higher... could you bind as a level 7 Binder, but only get one or two abilities, since that is largely thanks to feats?

senrath
2010-07-26, 02:15 PM
Makes me wonder if you could reflavour Nymph's kiss to go with other similar creatures... gah. It doesn't help that my current campaign has a cocky pirate prince in it that wants to get a harem.

Well, there is the feat "Lich Loved". Think about that for a minute.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 02:23 PM
With 1 level in Binder and then using the feats that allow non-Binders to bind up to level 3 vestiges, if possible, and then getting the feat that allows a Binder to bind as a binder of two levels higher... could you bind as a level 7 Binder, but only get one or two abilities, since that is largely thanks to feats?

Won't work - if you have any levels in Binder at all, you lose any benefit from the non-Binder binding feats (ToM pg. 73). It's one or the other - Binder 1 with Improved Binding, or non-Binder with Improved Bind Vestige.

Another_Poet
2010-07-26, 02:27 PM
So looking over Exalted feats, Bloodline feats, classes with alignment restrictions, etcetera... I came to wonder how one could make a character with the most intricate ginormous code of conduct ever. So yeah, what build, through use of classes, PrCs, feats, templates and whatever else there is, would have such a massive code of conduct?

Make your race North-Going Zax. You are only allowed to move to the North, never even one square to the east or west even if that is the only way to go further north, and never south under any circumstances. Additionally your character must speak in rhymes at all times, and failure, to boot, will render them mute.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 02:27 PM
Make your race North-Going Zax. You are only allowed to move to the North, never even one square to the east or west even if that is the only way to go further north, and never south under any circumstances. Additionally your character must speak in rhymes at all times, and failure, to boot, will render them mute.

Where is that from?

Draz74
2010-07-26, 02:31 PM
So, I was thinking it would be a good idea to play Curses (http://www.amazon.com/Worldwise-Imports-10-Curses/dp/B000NDMDHC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1280172644&sr=8-1) as a way to practice, before playing this character ...

Then I thought of something even better, for the true Curses master. Roleplaying this character, playing Curses in-game.


Where is that from?

Your Dr. Seuss-fu needs work. :smallwink:

hamishspence
2010-07-26, 02:43 PM
So CE has more restrictions than LE?

I can see where Dragon's reputation came from. :smallsigh:

From Dragon 312:

Anti-Paladin (CE)

Code of Conduct:
An anti-paladin must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever commits a good act. He must work at all times to undermine the works of civilization and good peoples, and must never offer mercy or grant quarter unless he betrays his word within the next hour. He cannot join an organization, but he can perform services for others as long as the services are for pay and lead to chaos and devastation.

Associates:
An anti-paladin may adventure with any non-good alignment, but remains hateful and distrustful of any "allies". As soon as an ally is no longer useful, the anti-paladin usually kills her (or at the very least, sacrifices her for his own personal gain). He never knowingly associates with good characters, nor will he continue an association with someone who balks at senseless murder or refuses to reward him for his aid. An anti-paladin may only accept henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are chaotic evil. Anti-paladins always suffer the -2 penalty for cruelty when determining their effective Leadership score to recruit a cohort.

Corruptor (NE)
Code of Conduct:
A corruptor must be neutral evil, and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits a good act or an act that exposes his faith to an opposing religion and results in his detriment. He must strive to corrupt and taint all faiths apart from his own, with a special focus on good faiths. He is allowed to make whatever vows or declarations are required in order to maintain this deception, as long as he spends at least an hour each day in private prayer to his deity. He must strive to remain hidden, though the methods by which he undermines other faiths are left to his own discretion.

Associates:
A corruptor can adventure with characters of any alignment, but remains suspicious and wary of good-aligned characters. He tolerates the presence of good associates only as long as he is secretly working to convert them to evil. He will not continue an association with someone who consistantly offends against his moral code by resisting his efforts to convert them. A corruptor may only have henchmen, followers, or cohortswho are neutral evil.

Despot (LE)
Code of Conduct:A despot must be of lawful evil alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever commits a chaotic act (such as breaking a vow or contract or betraying an ally). She must at all times work to expand and grow her domain, either by virtue of the Leadership feat or by strong-arming those less fortunate and powerful than herself. She is allowed to abuse her sovereignty in any way she sees fit to further her own personal strength and glory, but she must protect and defend her subjects and allies from harm from other forces. Likewise, she may not overburden her subjects so that they cannot support her.

Associates:
A despot adventures only with characters of non-chaotic alignment and remains suspicious and wary of those who are not lawful. She will never knowingly associate with chaotic characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistantly offends against her moral code. This includes remaining in a group where she is not equal or superior to the highest-level member. A despot can adventure or associate with those of equal level, although doing so makes her more uncomfortable and irritable than normal. A despot may only accept henchmen, conhorts and followers who are lawful evil.


The despot gets the Leadership feat as a bonus feat at 5th level (and a +1 bonus to their Leadership score). They also radiate an aura of Law, whereas the other two radiate an aura of Evil.

For some reason, they decided to make the Despot much less evil when compared to the Paladin of Tyranny.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 02:46 PM
Your Dr. Seuss-fu needs work. :smallwink:

Nah, too much forces Sanity checks :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2010-07-26, 02:53 PM
...

...

Does Vow of Purity allow eating things alive? If they weren't actually harmed by the process of being eaten? ...Gelatinous Cubes perhaps?

hamishspence
2010-07-26, 03:00 PM
Maybe- but Vow of Peace generally doesn't- not if they're living creatures.

Hmm- eating plants that aren't members of the Plant Creature category, might be permissible- since Vow of Purity forbids contact with dead meat, and Vow of Peace forbids killing "living creatures" which technically includes things like the Assassin Vine or the Shambling Mound-

but an ordinary plant is not "a living creature" nor, when killed, is it "dead meat" .

Oozes are living creatures as well (although maybe not "flesh" in most cases- except the Flesh Jelly). Only Constructs and Undead aren't.

That's if you could eat a bit of Cube without being paralysed in the process.

OracleofWuffing
2010-07-26, 03:02 PM
Does Vow of Purity allow eating things alive? If they weren't actually harmed by the process of being eaten? ...Gelatinous Cubes perhaps?
Yes. I say that because I remember that this isn't the first time that idea has been brought up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114874).

Person_Man
2010-07-26, 03:04 PM
The trouble with a chaotic code - when you break it, should you be rewarded or punished?

Hmm. Fair point. So I guess you'd have to go with a Neutral Evil code of conduct. I seem to remember an old edition of D&D (or one of the dozens of old D&D-ish novels I read as a kid) having NE Druids with really wacky codes. You have to uphold the balance between Law and Chaos while protecting nature, and you do it primarily by killing everyone who disagrees with you.

Alternatively you could go with a Chaotic Neutral character, with a mental illness that compels you to follow a randomly generated code of conduct each morning. Now that would be an interesting roleplaying challenge. This being D&D, we might as well start working on a Random Code of Conduct Table:


May not commit any Good act.
May not commit any Evil act.
May not knowingly lie.
May not knowingly lie, mislead, deceive, or equivocate.
Must always directly answer questions posed to you.
Must remain silent at all times.
May not knowingly tell the truth.
Must always offer others an opportunity to surrender.
Must never offer others an opportunity to surrender.
Must never accept compensation.
Must always receive compensation, even for the simplest of acts.
More...?

hamishspence
2010-07-26, 03:18 PM
Dragon 310's CN paladin variant:


Anarch:

Code of conduct:
An anarch must be of chaotic neutral alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits a blatantly lawful act (such as abiding by an oath, fulfilling a contract, or joining an organization such as a brotherhood or a fellowship). Aside from this, the anarch's code is really little more than a lack of code. As long as he continues to cause chaos and foment disrespect for law in others, his status as an anarch is secure.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 03:39 PM
...

...

Does Vow of Purity allow eating things alive? If they weren't actually harmed by the process of being eaten? ...Gelatinous Cubes perhaps?

I don't think food is a concern here - this guy has VoP and at least 5 dips. At level 5, VoP characters don't have to eat/drink. At 12, he doesn't have to breathe, so no chance of inhaling bugs and the other stuff VoPe characters have to deal with.

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-26, 03:40 PM
Dragon 310's CN paladin variant:


Anarch:

Code of conduct:
An anarch must be of chaotic neutral alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits a blatantly lawful act (such as abiding by an oath, fulfilling a contract, or joining an organization such as a brotherhood or a fellowship). Aside from this, the anarch's code is really little more than a lack of code. As long as he continues to cause chaos and foment disrespect for law in others, his status as an anarch is secure.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff23/johnnybenz78/WOF/picard-facepalm.jpg
Words fail me.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 03:47 PM
So the only code they have to follow is not following a code. Which means their code forbids them from following the code that they have to follow in order to have a code.

PIME TARADOX

Coidzor
2010-07-26, 03:52 PM
I don't think food is a concern here - this guy has VoP and at least 5 dips. At level 5, VoP characters don't have to eat/drink. At 12, he doesn't have to breathe, so no chance of inhaling bugs and the other stuff VoPe characters have to deal with.

True, was more of a horrifying aside when I mentioned this thread to my friend....

CubeB
2010-07-26, 04:22 PM
Throw in Dragonborn as well. Piss of Bahamut, and he PERSONALLY RIPS THE TEMPLATE OFF YOUR HEATHEN BODY.

Oh, and the Wu Jen's mysteries are also a good option. But they cannot be lawful, which is somewhat of an issue.

Another alternative is Warlock. Warlocks don't have a code of conduct... but they are dependent on a supernatural creature who can easily take away all of their powers at ANY TIME.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 04:29 PM
Throw in Dragonborn as well. Piss of Bahamut, and he PERSONALLY RIPS THE TEMPLATE OFF YOUR HEATHEN BODY.

Dragonborn Buomman ftw


Oh, and the Wu Jen's mysteries are also a good option. But they cannot be lawful, which is somewhat of an issue.

...Argh. Can't believe I forgot that.
Think we can stretch Ordered Chaos far enough?

balistafreak
2010-07-26, 04:32 PM
Dragonborn Buomman ftw

I thought an advantage of being a Dragonborn Buomman was that Dragonborn removed the Vow of Silence-esque ability? :smallconfused:

Morph Bark
2010-07-26, 04:42 PM
...Argh. Can't believe I forgot that.
Think we can stretch Ordered Chaos far enough?

I'd say yes. Yes we can.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 04:48 PM
I thought an advantage of being a Dragonborn Buomman was that Dragonborn removed the Vow of Silence-esque ability? :smallconfused:

Can we voluntarily keep it? :smalltongue:
(I confess, I didn't read Dragonborn very closely.)

Morph Bark
2010-07-26, 07:16 PM
Another thing I'm wondering now after looking through Dragon 326 for Flaws he mentioned... I saw Anarchic feats that were to Chaos as Exalted feats are to Good and Vile feats are to Evil. Through Ordered Chaos you could have both these and Lawful stuff (even better if there are also Lawful feats like such). They didn't have a code of conduct though.

Are there any Anarchic feats (or their Lawful equivalent) with a code of conduct?

Coidzor
2010-07-26, 08:07 PM
Another thing I'm wondering now after looking through Dragon 326 for Flaws he mentioned... I saw Anarchic feats that were to Chaos as Exalted feats are to Good and Vile feats are to Evil. Through Ordered Chaos you could have both these and Lawful stuff (even better if there are also Lawful feats like such). They didn't have a code of conduct though.

Are there any Anarchic feats (or their Lawful equivalent) with a code of conduct?
I believe the lawful equivalent is "Axiomatic," but I haven't found any yet outside of homebrew and I can't remember where I found 'em last in homebrew either for that matter. I know I've seen axiomatic vs. anarchic floating around in homebrewer parlance, occasionally referencing Dragon or older 2e ideas from planescape.

I'm not well versed in Dragon though, so there's probably something floating around.

Skeppio
2010-07-26, 09:24 PM
Dragonborn Buomman ftw

Apparently, it wasn't that cool when I posted it two pages ago.

Anyway, would the drug addictions in BoVD count for this concept? It's another thing that the character must follow, but it isn't a code of any sort.

hamishspence
2010-07-27, 03:31 AM
So the only code they have to follow is not following a code. Which means their code forbids them from following the code that they have to follow in order to have a code.

PIME TARADOX

It does say "aside from this" so they follow the basic principle of no lawful acts- and apart from that, they can do anything they want. As long as they "cause chaos and foment disrespect for law" along the way.

Psyx
2010-07-27, 03:38 AM
Eh, it's not that hard to maintain a relationship with a nymph. Ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta! Mindrape powerrr!


So it's fine if someone else does it? I think you need to get a job with the CIA...

hamishspence
2010-07-27, 03:43 AM
Sanctify the Wicked actually isn't all that like Mindrape. You don't get access to the victim's memories. You can't edit the victims mind in any way other than the listed one (their alignment changes to match yours). And it can't be used to make the target insane.

In many ways, it has much more in common with the [Evil] psionic power Mind Seed, except it only changes the target's alignment, whereas Mind Seed replaces every single bit of the target's personality and memories, with yours.

Maybe people should start calling it "Holy Mind Seed". Still weaker than Mind Seed, but makes more sense.

Prime32
2010-07-27, 07:54 AM
Maybe people should start calling it "Holy Mind Seed". Still weaker than Mind Seed, but makes more sense.Except that the point of Mindrape is to attain an ally. Turning someone good will make them likely to work with you, but a character using mind seed... will get someone unscrupulous enough to use mind seed. Who is just as ambitious as he is, and likely stronger.