Reformed Paladin (3.5 PRC, PEACH)

[Jallorn]

Champion

Where a Paladin's power comes from his faith in his god, a Champion draws his power from his convictions.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Alignment:Cannot be True Neutral
Special:Must be a fallen Paladin

Class Skills
The Class Name's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are....
Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + int

Hit Dice: d10

Champion
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|New Faith

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Class Ability

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Class Ability

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Class Ability

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Class Ability

6th|
+6|
+5|
+2|
+5|Class Ability

7th|
+7|
+5|
+2|
+5|Class Ability

8th|
+8|
+6|
+2|
+6|Class Ability

9th|
+9|
+6|
+3|
+6|Class Ability

10th|
+10|
+7|
+3|
+7|Class Ability[/table]

Weapon Proficiencies: A place to put the different proficiencies.
Put all the different class abilities in here!

New Faith: The Champion's new faith in himself allows him to recover certain abilities that he had as a Paladin. First, the Champion acquires a Smite attack usable as many times as he was able to use Smite Evil. This Smite is mechanically identical to Smite Evil except that it can be used against any enemy, and all damage done by the Champion in a turn where he smites must be lethal damage. Second, the Champion recovers Divine Grace and Lay on Hands if he had them. Finally, the Champion's Special Mount, if he had one, is returned to the Champion. The special mount may remain with the Champion for an indefinite amount of time, but loses the ability to share spells and the ability to command others of it's kind. The special mount is otherwise treated as normal, and if it dies, the Champion may bond to a new mount (though he often has to pay for a new one).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Still working on this, obviously. Ideas for abilities would be nice. My plan is for later abilities to provide action opportunities the Paladin doesn't have and none of them should play upon the Paladin abilities.

Scrapped

[sciencepanda]

I like the concept.

You should also provide rules for what happen if the ex-Paladin atones, and begins taking levels in Paladin again. Do they keep the abilities they get from this? Can they continue leveling in it afterwards? etc.

[Jallorn]

My thinking was that no, they can't take any more levels, but yes they keep the abilities they've already gained.

[Milskidasith]

This is a strangely unworkable concept, in that if it manages to be as good as paladin (rather poor, really), then it's not doing anything, but if it's better than paladin, there's no reason for paladins not to fall because entering this class is free. It's also the only class you could technically enter at level 2, or even level 1 if you use the "sub out paladin levels" thing if you fall and want to take new class levels.

I also don't see why it can't be true neutral. That just seems weird.

[Jallorn]

The idea is that you have to be devoted to some ideal, and if you're true neutral you're too much on the fence.

This class is intended to be a save for Paladins. I intend it to be a little better than them, but I leave it up to the DM to say no. I don't think that putting out a class that rewards paladins for falling is game breaking since the people who would do that aren't likely to play a paladin anyway.

[Prime32]

The idea is that you have to be devoted to some ideal, and if you're true neutral you're too much on the fence.What about all those guys devoted to maintaining the balance? Or if you're devoted to a goal but pursue it by neutral means? (Lelouch Lamperouge is possibly True Neutral)

This would make more sense as a modification to the paladin class.

[Starbuck_II]

So this is for FR Paladins? Because normally Paladins are empowered by essence of Good not gods.

[Milskidasith]

The idea is that you have to be devoted to some ideal, and if you're true neutral you're too much on the fence.

This class is intended to be a save for Paladins. I intend it to be a little better than them, but I leave it up to the DM to say no. I don't think that putting out a class that rewards paladins for falling is game breaking since the people who would do that aren't likely to play a paladin anyway.

True Neutral thing still doesn't make sense. It still rewards paladins for falling; not that their code is smart, but there's no reason, if it's better than the paladin, to not be, say, LG dedicated to the laws of your previous god, but broke the rule against buying alcohol on the third day of the month so you fell and got better class features. Saying "Players won't do that" is not a balance mechanism.

[Jallorn]

True Neutral thing still doesn't make sense. It still rewards paladins for falling; not that their code is smart, but there's no reason, if it's better than the paladin, to not be, say, LG dedicated to the laws of your previous god, but broke the rule against buying alcohol on the third day of the month so you fell and got better class features. Saying "Players won't do that" is not a balance mechanism.

No, but saying DMs won't let them is. This isn't met to be balanced in the system, but to be something a DM can allow the player to take if they fall and don't want to repent.

Basically, the system is broken, this is so that the system isn't quite as broken. Tell me this: Why would you play a paladin at all since Wizards are so much better?

It's the same as: Why play a paladin when a Champion is better.

[Jallorn]

What about all those guys devoted to maintaining the balance? Or if you're devoted to a goal but pursue it by neutral means? (Lelouch Lamperouge is possibly True Neutral)

This would make more sense as a modification to the paladin class.

I don't see that as a cause that one gets passionate about, but a cause one supports intellectually.

[Milskidasith]

No, but saying DMs won't let them is. This isn't met to be balanced in the system, but to be something a DM can allow the player to take if they fall and don't want to repent.

Basically, the system is broken, this is so that the system isn't quite as broken. Tell me this: Why would you play a paladin at all since Wizards are so much better?

It's the same as: Why play a paladin when a Champion is better.

The problem here is that when the champion is "A paladin but better" if you want to play a paladin type character, you'd only want the Champion. You wouldn't play a wizard, because that's not what you want to play.

Rule zero is not a balance mechanism.

I am not saying the paladin is currently well balanced. However, making a free to take PrC that simply upgrades the paladin seems foolish when you could merely make this a paladin remake instead, which is what this seems like.

True Neutral people can be passionate about balance, and LG people can be laid back about being LG. So what? You're being really odd and picky about a single alignment for no reason.

[Jallorn]

It's not "a paladin but better". It's "like a paladin, but better".

[Hyooz]

No, but saying DMs won't let them is. This isn't met to be balanced in the system, but to be something a DM can allow the player to take if they fall and don't want to repent.

Basically, the system is broken, this is so that the system isn't quite as broken. Tell me this: Why would you play a paladin at all since Wizards are so much better?

It's the same as: Why play a paladin when a Champion is better.

I really really really hate this argument.

I'll play a paladin over a wizard because sometimes, I want to play a paladin instead of a wizard. It's that simple. The specific problem with a PrC like this, is that there is literally no reason, flavor, mechanical or otherwise, to not be a paladin+, especially when the only balance check you have is "The DM will fix it." That's just... lazy.

The fallen requirement is kind of... weird anyway, since a paladin who begins his life dedicated to a cause and stays that way unerringly doesn't get to benefit from the abilities a paladin who slacked off and then dedicated himself to a cause gets.

Look into the Devotion Feats in... Complete Champion, I think. They might make good prerequisites if the devotion idea is what you're going for.

[Jallorn]

I don't really want to argue this. There is flavor to it, and if you really want to get down to it, a Champion doesn't have the support of a church.

[Milskidasith]

I don't really want to argue this. There is flavor to it, and if you really want to get down to it, a Champion doesn't have the support of a church.

Neither does a paladin, necessarily. They're pretty much just "warriors of a cause" which is exactly what this is. It's divine magic, sure, but that doesn't mean it's religious.

[Jallorn]

Neither does a paladin, necessarily. They're pretty much just "warriors of a cause" which is exactly what this is. It's divine magic, sure, but that doesn't mean it's religious.

Then don't use my PRC, I don't mind.

[Milskidasith]

Then don't use my PRC, I don't mind.

You put PEACH on your PrC. If you did not want honest criticism, and wish to be passive aggressive against such, you should not ask for it.

[Jallorn]

You put PEACH on your PrC. If you did not want honest criticism, and wish to be passive aggressive against such, you should not ask for it.

You're right, I'm sorry.