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faceroll
2010-07-25, 11:30 PM
My friend is going to be playing a level 1 pixie warlock, and is quite new to the game. What would be a good feat choice? She's very excited to be playing something that flies and turns invisible. The campaign is going to be taking place in a jungle.

Prodan
2010-07-25, 11:33 PM
Mortalbane, BoVD.

Optimystik
2010-07-25, 11:43 PM
When you say level 1, you mean just class levels, right? A Pixie Warlock 1 is ECL 5 - are you waiving the LA, or is that where the campaign is starting at, challenge-wise?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-07-26, 12:50 AM
Flyby Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack), so he can move a little, shoot an EB, and move again so nobody knows where he is or where the next shot is coming from.

Tokiko Mima
2010-07-26, 01:06 AM
If 3.0/3.5ish material is in, Supernatural Transformation (Eldritch Blast) [Savage Species] is a great feat choice for pixies. No annoying rolls against spell resistance, or AoO's for using Eldritch Blast in melee combat.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 01:49 AM
If 3.0/3.5ish material is in, Supernatural Transformation (Eldritch Blast) [Savage Species] is a great feat choice for pixies. No annoying rolls against spell resistance, or AoO's for using Eldritch Blast in melee combat.

I would like to note that many DMs disallow this - apart from the power concerns, the feat can only be applied to "innate abilities," and the general consensus has been that SLAs granted from a class don't qualify.

WinWin
2010-07-26, 01:55 AM
Fey Heritage from complete mage. Not a bad feat chain compared to other heritage feats, plus it is full of flavour.

PId6
2010-07-26, 02:28 AM
I would like to note that many DMs disallow this - apart from the power concerns
What power concerns? It's the warlock! The best you can do with it is make Glaive builds a bit better, and even then it's nothing huge. On a straight warlock with LA+4? It seems almost necessary just so SR doesn't shut him down completely.

faceroll
2010-07-26, 03:33 AM
When you say level 1, you mean just class levels, right? A Pixie Warlock 1 is ECL 5 - are you waiving the LA, or is that where the campaign is starting at, challenge-wise?

The party is currently ECL2. She would be starting at ECL 5, with one level of warlock.


Flyby Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack), so he can move a little, shoot an EB, and move again so nobody knows where he is or where the next shot is coming from.

A good idea.


If 3.0/3.5ish material is in, Supernatural Transformation (Eldritch Blast) [Savage Species] is a great feat choice for pixies. No annoying rolls against spell resistance, or AoO's for using Eldritch Blast in melee combat.

If it was a higher level campaign, I would suggest it. Fighting lizard men and goblin tribes, I don't think either melee or SR is going to come up a lot. And since I won't be there to rules lawyer, I doubt anyone will know that EB requires a roll to overcome SR, should it come up.


Fey Heritage from complete mage. Not a bad feat chain compared to other heritage feats, plus it is full of flavour.

+3 on will saving throws isn't that helpful at level 1, and seeing as how she won't get another feat until she's ECL 7, I don't think it's worth it. Toughness would be better, TBH.

WinWin
2010-07-26, 04:20 AM
+3 on will saving throws isn't that helpful at level 1, and seeing as how she won't get another feat until she's ECL 7, I don't think it's worth it. Toughness would be better, TBH

I was thinking long term. The natural abilities of pixie contribute greatly to it's early survival. Adding more SLA's and stacking DR in the long term is much better than toughness.

Otherwise. Assume Spuernatural Ability for polymorph abuse.

Tokiko Mima
2010-07-26, 05:04 AM
I would like to note that many DMs disallow this - apart from the power concerns, the feat can only be applied to "innate abilities," and the general consensus has been that SLAs granted from a class don't qualify.

Warlock abilities are innate. The third sentence in Complete Arcane describing warlocks reads:


By harnessing his innate magical gift through fearsome determination and force of will, a warlock can perform feats of supernatural stealth, beguile the weak-minded, and scour his enemies with blasts of eldritch power.

"Innate" is a fluffy word as it doesn't draw a clear mechanical distinction between what is or isn't innate. But warlocks eldritch blast is quite clearly called out as "innate." Also innate? A sorcerer's power and psionics in general, though those are usually not spell like abilities for the purposes of this feat.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 07:39 AM
Warlock abilities are innate.

Again - this is debatable. Allowing this opens the door to every class-granted SLA becoming "innate," such as those of Archmages, Iot7FVs, Sandshapers etc. What wouldn't you classify as "innate?"

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-07-26, 07:54 AM
The party is currently ECL2. She would be starting at ECL 5, with one level of warlock.

She's going to spend four levels watching everyone else's characters get better while hers doesn't see any improvement, which won't be much fun. Plus in combat she'll only be doing 1d6 damage until ECL 7, so she may end up feeling like she's not even contributing. Consider gradually gaining Half-Fey (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) instead of using Pixie, probably using Gnome for the base race. Keep in mind you don't have to gain every level (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) of the template as early as possible. If you can buy off your LA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm), she could start out Half-Fey LA +1/ Warlock 1, and upon reaching Warlock 3 spend 3,000 XP to buy off that point of LA. Gain the second level of Half-Fey after that, and after three more class levels (something like Warlock 3/ LA +1/ Warlock 3) buy off that point for 6,000 XP. That way she'd catch back up to everyone else much more quickly and it would have much of the same flavor though without the constant Invisibility.

In this case definitely take Magic In the Blood at 1st level (PGtF), so all your 1/day spell-like abilities from the template are instead usable 3/day. Since it grants Charm Person you could even dip a level into Mindbender without spending an invocation known, though I wouldn't take more than one level of that.

Runestar
2010-07-26, 09:09 AM
Warlock abilities are innate. The third sentence in Complete Arcane describing warlocks reads:

"Innate" is a fluffy word as it doesn't draw a clear mechanical distinction between what is or isn't innate. But warlocks eldritch blast is quite clearly called out as "innate." Also innate? A sorcerer's power and psionics in general, though those are usually not spell like abilities for the purposes of this feat.

In game terms, innate means being derived from your race.

For all its fluff, the warlock ultimately remains a class, and so any abilities it grants are considered class features. They are no more "innate" than a barbarian's ability to rage, a rogue's evasion or a wizard's spellcasting.

And for whatever it is worth, the Sage has also weighed in on this issue.


Can a warlock qualify for the Supernatural Transformation feat (Savage Species, page 39) and change one of his invocations into a supernatural ability?

No. The warlock’s spell-like abilities are learned (from class levels), not innate (that is, part of his racial traits).


What does “innate spell-like ability” mean for the purpose of qualifying for the Supernatural Transformation feat (Savage Species, page 39)? Does the Innate Spell feat create an innate spell-like ability?

“Innate,” for the purpose of the Supernatural Transformation feat, means “gained normally as part of the creature’s race, type, subtype, or kind.”
A duergar’s enlarge person and invisibility spell-like abilities, a tanar’ri’s summon tanar’ri spell-like ability, and a juvenile gold dragon’s bless spell-like ability are all “innate” spell-like abilities. A warlock’s invocations, a paladin’s ability to call her special mount, and any spell-like abilities gained from your class, feats, or similar sources are not.

Despite its name, even the Innate Spell feat doesn’t create an “innate” spell-like ability for the purpose of the Supernatural Transformation feat. This is simply an unfortunate case of the same word being used for two different purposes.

However, it is worth noting that one of the designers also mentioned he doesn't see anything overpowering about letting supernatural transformation apply to eldritch blast, seeing as to how there is already an invocation which does a similar thing (ignore sr). :smallsmile:

Tokiko Mima
2010-07-26, 02:59 PM
Again - this is debatable. Allowing this opens the door to every class-granted SLA becoming "innate," such as those of Archmages, Iot7FVs, Sandshapers etc. What wouldn't you classify as "innate?"

Well, since you asked, learned abilities. Prepared spellcasting, martial adept maneuvers/skills, feats that would require training of some kind, armor/weapon proficiencies, etc. Some class granted SLAs do make sense as innate/racial abilities, for example Walker in the Wastes gradual transformation into a dry lich shows a progression of class abilities into racial abilities. There are races that evolve racial abilities as they grow, (e.g. Dragons) so there is a precedent for that as well.

If you enter Archmage, Iot7FV or Sandshaper as a sorcerer/innate spellcaster, then yes, those PrC's can and should be considered innate, because the base of your sorcerous power and spellcasting is "innate" to you. If you enter them as a wizard, they are not innate, but you have the advantage of being a prepared spellcaster, which is a better deal all around.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 03:04 PM
The line that separates the SLAs of one class as being "innate" and disallowing those of another is purely arbitrary and ill-defined. Better to go with Sage's ruling on this one.

That said, if the OP is the DM, it would obviously be up to him.

Tokiko Mima
2010-07-26, 03:24 PM
The line that separates the SLAs of one class as being "innate" and disallowing those of another is purely arbitrary and ill-defined. Better to go with Sage's ruling on this one.

That said, if the OP is the DM, it would obviously be up to him.

Yes, but I tend to think the rules and text in the book trump a ruling by Sage/FAQ/CustServ, who, lets face it, often contradicts themselves when asked the same question in a different way on a different day.

Again, "innate" has no mechanical crunchy meaning at all, so it's totally arguably one way or the other, depending on how you or your DM wants to use or see the fluff. You're literally picking how you want to define the term, so you are making rules up when you do so. Many things in D&D rulebooks seem, and usually are completely arbitary and ill defined when they become like this. This is just one of them.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 03:32 PM
Yes, but I tend to think the rules and text in the book trump a ruling by Sage/FAQ/CustServ, who, lets face it, often contradicts themselves when asked the same question in a different way on a different day.

And you would be right, except that fluff is not rules text.

faceroll
2010-07-31, 03:52 PM
Just an update for anyone who's interested how this went; she went pixie warlock and picked up the feat magic in the blood (no one really cares if it's not 100% legit) so she can do her stuff 3 times per day. The player was pretty bummed when I explained that she wouldn't gain another level for like 10 sessions.

All session, she followed our party, unbeknownst to our characters, while using her SLAs and sleep arrows to screw with us. The player cackled like crazy the whole time while passing notes to the DM. She had a great time.

Thanks for all the advice guys.