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View Full Version : Giving the Beguiler a required boost (PEACH)



nonsi
2010-07-26, 04:09 AM
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Okay. Theme-wise the Beguiler is one of my all time favorites, the so-called puny weakling to be bullied around... who really is the behind-the-scenes manipulator that sets nation-scale plots in motion, and ends up having his way – the one that gets the girl just as “boyfriend” is busy putting on a muscle display.
It just has 2 major drawbacks:
1. It’s fragile. I mean, like really fragile - too fragile to make it to round 2 more often than not (smart opponents will ignore you only so much and there are too many opponents that are immune to mental assault).
2. Other than mind effects, it’s got little to no offensive power. But given that built-in offensive features are not really appropriate, it needs something to help against taking its own medicine and some unorthodox means to take optional routes that would help it pump up its offensive impact… and, of course, outclass everyone else in trickery & manipulation of all sorts.

The following additions (bolded & specified) should do wonders to bolster the Beguiler’s survivability and give it some serious kick.
They’re not meant to make it a frontliner, but they should help increase its overall gametime contribution significantly.


Level Special
==============================================
1st Armored mage, Trapfinding, Tongue of the Devil
2nd Cloaked casting (+1 DC)
3rd Advanced learning
4th Well Versed
5th Silent Spell, Cloaked casting (+2 to overcome SR)
6th Adaptive Identity
7th Advanced learning
8th Cloaked casting (+2 DC)
9th Null Alignment
10th Still Spell
11th Advanced learning, Cloaked casting (+4 to overcome SR)
12th Slippery Mind (see the core Rogue)
13th A Thousand Faces (see the core Druid)
14th Cloaked casting (+4 DC)
15th Advanced learning
16th Bursting Spell
17th Cloaked casting (+6 to overcome SR)
18th Void Identity
19th Advanced learning
20th Cloaked casting (overcomes SR)

Tongue of the Devil (Ex)
INT-mod to Bluff & Gather Information

Well Versed (Ex)
The Beguiler gains +4 vs. all illusions & compulsions (fear, charm, hold, slow, confusion etc).

Adaptive Identity (Ex)
The Beguiler never again fails prerequisites for a feat due to race, alignment or class (unless the feat affects only specific class/racial abilities of which the Beguiler possesses none.

Null Alignment (Ex)
The Beguiler is now immune to all alignment-based spells, Sp & Su abilities and doesn’t register anything on any and all alignment inspections.

Bursting Spell (Su)
You may now omit the verbal and somatic components from all spells gained via your Beguiler class without modifying their level or casting time.

Void Identity (Ex)
From this point and on, the beguiler is so elusive and beguiling that even “automatic-hit” spells, Sp and Su powers (not including area effects, and provided the Beguiler is aware of the incoming attack) require a successful attack roll (touch attack) before they may actually affect him in any way.


Other Modifications:

Saveing throws: Good Ref
Spells: Mage Armor is removed, Grease is added instead, Darkvision is added as a 2nd level spell

I_Got_This_Name
2010-07-26, 06:43 AM
The Beguiler's an awesome class, easily as powerful as a wizard, since they're basically a wizard who trades all their bad spells and maybe about half their good spells to be able to cast the rest spontaneously off their entire spell list. If enemies are getting a chance to hit you as a beguiler beyond the lowest levels, you're either making some serious mistakes somewhere or playing with badly restricted figments or similarly awful house rules.

I wouldn't ever play an illusionist or beguiler without first having as long a discussion as I need to find out how he house-rules figments, how he defines all the terms in the figments section of the rules, what's allowed and what's not, and I'd expect my players to do the same when I run a game. The figments rules, as they stand, are more a list of suggestions for coming up with your own rules than a set of rules themselves.

Even without all the figments, a beguiler might not be able to survive the full attentions of a level-appropriate monster for a round, but the monster shouldn't make it to round 2 against a beguiler, at least not in any state to fight back hard.

To sum this up, it adds power to a class that doesn't really need it most of the time when it's played, and doesn't address the real problem the class has when it has one.

nonsi
2010-07-26, 10:01 AM
If enemies are getting a chance to hit you as a beguiler beyond the lowest levels, you're either making some serious mistakes somewhere or playing with badly restricted figments or similarly awful house rules.

An intrinsic part of being a PC is being exposed to dangers and finding ways of dealing with them.
I don’t see the point in playing if all your game interactions are made via remote control.




I wouldn't ever play an illusionist or beguiler without first having as long a discussion as I need to find out how he house-rules figments, how he defines all the terms in the figments section of the rules, what's allowed and what's not, and I'd expect my players to do the same when I run a game. The figments rules, as they stand, are more a list of suggestions for coming up with your own rules than a set of rules themselves.

Irrelevant against Construct/Elemental/Ooze/Outsider/Plant/Undead/Vermin types in most cases (except maybe for certain Outsider types). Most of them don’t even use the 5 primary senses, so you can figment yourself to hell and back without it making any real difference. And that’s without counting magical protections and specific racial/class features.




Even without all the figments, a beguiler might not be able to survive the full attentions of a level-appropriate monster for a round, but the monster shouldn't make it to round 2 against a beguiler, at least not in any state to fight back hard.

Again, Construct/Elemental/Ooze/ Undead/Vermin and all other mindless creatures or opponents with radically high will saves can practically ignore you.



Also, the Beguiler is not too hot on divination as far as my memory serves me, so I don’t really see how one should prepare to manage opponents from a safe distance more often than not.

And... using your flunkies (when you have them) as cannon fodder on a regular basis would mean you won’t be having too many of them around most of the time.


In certain campaigns, where most of the opponents are highly susceptible to mental influence and sensory falsehood, the Beguiler would probably rock, but if this is the case, then I don’t see any reason why an enchanter or illusionist (focused specialist in particular) would trail behind in any way (especially with the Wizard’s bonus feats).
With careful spell selection, a Sorc would almost stay toe to toe at your game as well – and still have a bag full of other tricks and options that will forever remain beyond the Beguiler’s grasp.





To sum this up, it adds power to a class that doesn't really need it most of the time when it's played, and doesn't address the real problem the class has when it has one.

Which are ... ?

Morty
2010-07-26, 10:09 AM
I agree that Beguiler doesn't need a boost. It's a well-balanced class, perhaps even too strong in certain circumstances; certainly a pain for the GM because of how easily they can solve problems. It doesn't have much offensive power beyond mind-affecting spells, but it doesn't really need them since the mind-affecting spells can often make encounters much easier. And when dealing with constructs, undead and other mindless creatures, the Beguiler still has some tricks up his sleeve, such as Slow, Haste and Solid Fog.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-26, 10:18 AM
I disagree with the statement that Beguilers have half the Wizard's good spells - that's simply not the case - but I generally agree with IGTN. The Beguiler is one of the most well-designed and balanced casters in the game. And they have plenty of non-mind-affecting effects; Illusions are not (generally) mind-affecting (only Patterns are, IIRC). It's actually really clever: Illusions are better against mindless opponents, because they have a lot of trouble seeing through them.


Anyway, I like your new low-level features for the most part. Well Versed, Adaptive Identity, and Null Alignment are quite good. I'm not sure about Tongue of the Devil, though; Beguilers are supposed to be Int-primary, Cha-secondary.

I'm not sure about doubling the DC bonus from Cloaked Casting; that's quite a lot of bonus. But I'm tempted to say it's a good thing. +2 DC seems a little weak to risk getting into melee. Slippery Mind and A Thousand Faces both seem quite appropriate.

I detest Pierce Illusion. Hard-counters are never a good thing. You could maybe make it like Uncanny Dodge, though. Even so, I'm not sure I like the idea.

Void Identity is... well, basically the rules are ambiguous and I would have no idea how to run it. I'm not entirely sure what it does.

Compulsion Immunity is fitting.


What I really don't get, though, is how this is supposed to address your stated complaints with the class. How do these address the Beguiler's squishiness, or lack of non-mind-affecting offensive abilities? Grease is a great spell, so it's nice to have that (they did originally, anyway; Errata took it away for some reason), but losing Mage Armor flies in the face of your issues with the squishiness. Gaining Darkvision is nice but not really a big deal.

I mean, these are nice-ish changes, but they don't seem to address the complaints that you made... since I don't really agree with those complaints, though, I rather like this for being a relatively slight change.

Zeta Kai
2010-07-26, 10:46 AM
I agree with the sentiment that the Beguiler doesn't really need a fix, especially not the fixes that the OP is proposing (Compulsion Immunity notwithstanding). I think that there are many, many other classes that are far more deserving of a fix.

Next, they'll be trying to "fix" the Factotum...

cooperflood
2010-07-26, 10:56 AM
The Beguiler is one of my favorite classes and I actually have played a beguiler in a number of games. Beguilers are a good and balanced class. They don't really need any help and the bottom line is your additions aren't going to make it that much better of a class and it certainly doesn't address any of the issues you have.

The only thing I don't like about the class is Surprise Casting, which is a useless ability. I could easily see replacing this ability with Adaptive Identity at 6th level. I have also debated giving the Beguiler Advanced Learning at every odd level starting with lvl 3. This allows him to pick 9 spells (one per level) rather than just 5. Finally I would add in an ability at say 16 or so that would allow a beguiler to apply Still Spell and Silent Spell without increasing the casting time and only increase the spell level by one (rather than two).

For more help on why a beguiler is good or on how to play one effectively see this excellent handbook (See Page 7: Combat Tactics in particular).

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0

I_Got_This_Name
2010-07-26, 11:45 AM
Maybe saying the beguiler only gives up half the good spells is understating what they lose. Transmutation alone has a fair bit of the good spells.


Irrelevant against Construct/Elemental/Ooze/Outsider/Plant/Undead/Vermin types in most cases (except maybe for certain Outsider types). Most of them don’t even use the 5 primary senses, so you can figment yourself to hell and back without it making any real difference. And that’s without counting magical protections and specific racial/class features.

There's the house rule you're up against right there. Nowhere in the rules the beguiler is balanced against does it say that as a general rule, and most of the staple monsters don't have any special senses (darkvision and low-light vision are normal senses and are specifically called out as not seeing through illusions). The default case for senses is human, so if a monster doesn't say it has extra senses, extra sensitive senses, or is missing a sense, it's exactly like a human. Handing out special senses to weird monsters is certainly a tempting house rule, but it is a house rule, and a nerf to people who rely on illusions if you don't let them research illusions to trick these senses.

Going down the list specifically with the most popular monsters in each type:
Constructs: The two classic types of constructs are Animated Objects and Golems. Neither has any special senses, and, since Silent Image doesn't allow spell resistance even if interacted with, it works fine even on golems. Disposing of a guardian iron golem is something you can probably do at 6th level, given a 20' pit trap in its pursuit radius.
Elementals: The elementals in the elemental entry have no special senses, not even, say, tremorsense for the Earth and Water elementals.
Oozes: The things in the Ooze entry do have Blindsight, which messes with your illusions. I find myself not caring when I see their speed. They're immune to beguilers, but beguilers are immune to them as long as you have room to run, and you can even kite them to death if your teammates aren't trying to melee them. I don't have the whole spell list on me to see what else you can pull out to distract them. Regardless, they discern prey by scent and vibration, so an olfactory/auditory illusion should be able to fool them, and their mindless, so you win. This comes online with Major Image.
Outsiders: Demons and Devils are the classics. Of the demons, Balors, Glabrezu, Nalfeshnee, and Mariliths all have True Seeing. Devils are similar. So if you're fighting high-end fiends, you don't put illusions against them except for shadow, which you should have. That, or bring items specialized against them. Also, they aren't technically immune to your mind control, they just have good will saves.
Plant: Picking at random here, Phantom Fungi, Tendriculi, and Treants all have normal senses. They're perfectly trickable, but tough because they're immune to mind spells and not mindless.
Undead: A lot of people play them as though they all have lifesense. This is a house rule. Mindless undead are easily tricked; free-willed undead are dangerous (but still trickable), especially incorporeals.
Vermin: Giant Ants have Scent, which is trickable from Major Image onward. Monstrous Spiders have Tremorsense, but it's not like flying is hard past the low levels, if you can't get an illusion to fool tremorsense.

So, that's high-end outsiders that you can't use illusions on, vermin that you can't use simple illusions on, and plants and free-willed undead that can outsmart your illusions while being immune to your mind control. Constructs can be fooled by anything, and oozes suck.

Basic beguiler tactics:
There are four kinds of spells: Spells you use against dumb things (figments), spells you use against weak-willed things (mind control), spells you use against everything else (Solid Fog, IIRC), and spells you don't use.

Figments hard-counter mindless enemies; you plop down a figment, and as long as they aren't programmed to mess with it they won't, and it'll block them from seeing whatever else. You can also use figments to displace them, drop them into traps, or whatever; just because the golem is right in front of the door you need to go through doesn't mean you can't beat it with Silent Image. The trick to figments is that things don't even get a save until they mess with it. So if you drop something that they might be inclined to believe, you're golden. Classic figments include walls (between you and the enemy), fog banks (around you; it's like an Obscuring Mist that your buddies can see through to shoot out of), opaque hemispheres surrounding your enemies just out of their reach, and, of course, people.

Remember that people are often really credulous in the D&D world because magic can do anything. The archer shooting out of the impenetrable fogbank could mean that it's all an illusion, or he could be being aimed telepathically by someone outside of it, or by scrying, or she might have blindsight, or whatever. If you've been running into dungeon-dwellers with weird senses, then so have the other dungeon-dwellers.

Mind control tactics are simple: mind control the biggest thing you can get away with and either get it to sit out the fight (charm, suggestion) or tear apart its own side (dominate). It helps if you build up a stable of disposable minions in the dungeon, for use on things you might otherwise have trouble with.

I don't have the beguiler spell list anywhere near me since I'm in another country from my books right now, so for the third kind of spells I'll only mention Solid Fog. This spell, first, boosts your credibility when creating fog illusions, since you can do the real thing. Second, it provides crowd control. If you're fighting two monsters, you can drop a solid fog to catch one but not the other if they're a reasonable distance apart, then have your teammates concentrate fire on one of them. Since two at the same time was a reasonable encounter, one at a time becomes much simpler; few things can handle the focus-fire of a reasonably optimized party for even a round. It gets even more fun when you're able to use it to split the enemy into more groups. You can also use it to buy time, either casting it on your party or the enemy. So if you're fighting something that can't buffs itself, you drop a solid fog on it, have everyone cast their juiciest rounds/level buffs, and then get rid of the solid fog somehow (Gust of Wind will do it, or you can wait for the thing to wander out). You're then fighting at a much higher power level than it is.

Last are spells like Whelm. You pretty much never want to cast these.

Your big weakness is fights against one single giant untrickable monster, like, say, dragons. These fights you can't divide and usually can't mind control (if you can, you should), and your illusions don't work either (if they did, it wouldn't be untrickable). This isn't too terrible, because you have a party behind you, and, if they're reasonably well optimized, can bring down any single enemy fairly quickly. You can still use solid fog to lay down cover, shadow conjure minions, and so on, so it's not like you're completely out of action.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-26, 12:33 PM
Mind-controlling things that can be mind-controlled and using them against things that can't is also a very valid tactic. Most high-level outsiders have minions around; this is a good thing for you.

nonsi
2010-07-26, 05:27 PM
I’ve modified the progression table as follows:

- Trapfinding was omitted by mistake. It’s back there now.
- Given it’s not a frontliner or an assassin, good Ref is not really necessary.
- Surprise Casting was removed (Adaptive Identity moved to 6th level, where it could be more beneficial).
- Pierce Illusion and Compulsion Immunity are gone (guess Well Versed is enough to avoid “taking its own medicine” more often than not).
- Slippery Mind, A Thousand Faces and Void Identity were moved to higher levels, to fill dead levels.
- Bursting Spell feature added to plug the final hole.

I know some would still say that these changes are unnecessary, but they don’t suddenly make this class tier-2 and they are thematically appropriate


Required clarifications:

What’s supposed to address the Beguiler’s offensive issue is specifically Adaptive Identity. It opens up a lot of feat-wise options without requiring specific races, multiclassing or preliminary feats (e.g. taking Draconic Heritage while skipping Dragon Touched). This doesn’t mean it will most certainly be used for offensive prowess, but at least the option is now available.

Void Identity basically means that you’re not automatically hit by auto-hit spells that target individuals (e.g. charm person, hold person, slow etc).

Mage Armor, btw, clashes with the Armored Mage feature.