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DragonsAion
2010-07-26, 10:16 AM
Since the spellthief steals spells through sneak attack does that mean that whenever the spellwarp sniper is able to use sudden ray strike from 30ft it could steal a spell?

I'm asking since I’m getting ready to play a spellthief 1/ wizard 4/ spellwarp sniper 5 with the master spellthief feat and since I'm AFB right now I can't remember if I'd be able to sneak attack with a ray in order to steal a spell.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 10:32 AM
Since the spellthief steals spells through sneak attack does that mean that whenever the spellwarp sniper is able to use sudden ray strike from 30ft it could steal a spell?

Yes - you can sneak attack with anything that uses an attack roll to hit, including spells that use attack rolls like rays and orbs. See Weaponlike Spells in Complete Arcane for details.

DragonsAion
2010-07-26, 12:29 PM
ok, thanks.

Thats what I thought as well but I couldn't remeber if it had to be a melee sneak attack in order to steal a spell or just an out right sneak attack.

Keld Denar
2010-07-26, 12:34 PM
Any old sneak attack will do. Spellthief doesn't descriminate due to range.

Hat-Trick
2010-07-26, 12:39 PM
The assassin's Death Strike does though. :smallannoyed:

DragonsAion
2010-07-26, 12:42 PM
good good. If I'm not mistaken doesn't the capstone for spellwarp sniper let you sneak attack with rays at 60ft? Ray mastery is what it's called I think.

I hate being both AFB and bored at work.

Keld Denar
2010-07-26, 12:42 PM
Yet another reason why Assassin is considered to be mechanically poor at what it says its supposed to do...assassinate people. Druid20 is a much better assassin than Assassin will ever be.

EDIT: Yes and yes

FuryOfMetal
2010-07-26, 12:52 PM
So what books are Spellthief and Spellwarp sniper in?

Keld Denar
2010-07-26, 12:55 PM
Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel respectively. Another class that fits marvolously into the build is Unseen Seer from Complete Mage.

DragonsAion
2010-07-26, 01:21 PM
I'm planning on going that way in the next few levels. However I'm not sure if I'm going to need practiced spellcaster since I have master spellthief. I think I will as MS will give me my full 20 CL's however with USS I'll have to take a -3 to my CL.

Keld Denar
2010-07-26, 01:29 PM
You apply feats and features in the order you want. Just apply the -3 CL first, then apply MST to set your CL equal to the sum of your arcane spellcaster levels + spellthief levels. For the bonus, apply in the opposite order. Its not actually expressed in the rules, but was recommended by the sage as a way of resolving things like resistance vs vulnerability. Always apply things in the order most beneficial to the receiver of the benefit.

DragonsAion
2010-07-26, 02:02 PM
thanks for the help and the information. Looks like this is going to be a ranged combat type witch helps with picking feats.

never really played a character that relied on sneak attack so much so any ideas on how best to get sneak attack in combat? tricks and feats would be welcomed.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 02:06 PM
thanks for the help and the information. Looks like this is going to be a ranged combat type witch helps with picking feats.

never really played a character that relied on sneak attack so much so any ideas on how best to get sneak attack in combat? tricks and feats would be welcomed.

The quickest way is to force a balance check - Any creature balancing, even if they make the check, is considered flatfooted unless they have 5 ranks in balance. Grease and marbles are two good ways since both ignore SR and saves.

Grappling characters also lose their Dex to AC, making them legal targets. Toss a summon at them, or have the BSF/FSM do it.

DragonsAion
2010-07-26, 02:47 PM
On a side note where can I find feats that would let me use posions?

Keld Denar
2010-07-26, 02:53 PM
You don't need any special training to use poisons. Its a flat 5% chance to poison yourself if you aren't trained in it (such as from Assassin levels).

Um, DotU has a metamagic feat called Poison Spell that consumes a dose of poison to apply that poison to the target of your spell, IIRC. Since you aren't actually "using" it (coating a weapon), you don't provoke the 5% chance to poison yourself, its simply consumed by the spell. Also, you can use Minor Creation to replicate poisons in a more cost effective manner.

DragonsAion
2010-07-26, 02:58 PM
thanks,

posions that are of the "contact" type. Could I put those in a flask to use as splash weapons?

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 03:01 PM
You could also pick a race (like Warforged Scout/Necropolitan) for whom poison is not as much of a worry. But you can't poison your rays anyway, so you're better off grabbing feats that help your spells (e.g. Quicken, Empower) and relying on those.

Keld Denar
2010-07-26, 03:03 PM
Wouldn't a SWS be able to poison his rays with Poison Spell? I mean, you memorize a Poison Fireball, and its a Fireball up until the moment that you cast it, at which point you twist one finger differently and swirl it into a ray. I mean, that SHOULD work, right?

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 03:08 PM
Wouldn't a SWS be able to poison his rays with Poison Spell? I mean, you memorize a Poison Fireball, and its a Fireball up until the moment that you cast it, at which point you twist one finger differently and swirl it into a ray. I mean, that SHOULD work, right?

Unfortunately, no - even spellwarping a spell won't work, as the feat explicitly applies only to melee touch spells.

You also risk poisoning yourself just as with a spell, and you need the poison itself as an additional material component, and finally the spell must do damage to deliver the poison (so you can't poison Plane Shift, for instance.)

DragonsAion
2010-07-26, 03:13 PM
that would be nice but I'm thinking of using the posions on my crossbow bolts and other weapons.

by the way this is for that crazy Dnd game that I posted about a while ago. the one with 10 levels of feats + one extra feat per level.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 03:37 PM
that would be nice but I'm thinking of using the posions on my crossbow bolts and other weapons.

by the way this is for that crazy Dnd game that I posted about a while ago. the one with 10 levels of feats + one extra feat per level.

If I got lots of feats with your build, I would pile on reserve feats/metamagic/sudden metamagic, and not bother with the crossbow/poison at all. You can do a lot more ability score damage faster using spells like Ray of Enfeeblement anyway.

DragonsAion
2010-07-26, 04:29 PM
true, but I can save a spell slot by using the posions.

gallagher
2010-07-26, 06:22 PM
true, but I can save a spell slot by using the posions.

and you can use wands to use the spells. which is the fighter that is trying to hit you more likely to succeed on, a fort save or a will save?

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 06:24 PM
and you can use wands to use the spells. which is the fighter that is trying to hit you more likely to succeed on, a fort save or a will save?

Or better yet, no save at all.

gallagher
2010-07-26, 06:28 PM
Or better yet, no save at all.
btw, a fun way to cover all your bases is to also get at least a dip in initiate of the seven fold veil. full casting plus defensive boons. i like the look of a Spellthief1/Wiz4/Spellwarp Sniper 1/IotSFV7/USS7

and if you want to also steal other peoples buffs, you could take a level of USS for a second level of spellthief

Cieyrin
2010-07-26, 06:40 PM
I had a Spellthief/Spellwarp Sniper build at one time, built on the Iron Kingdom's Gunmage base class. Putting rays into bullets is rather nice, though poisoning bullets seems a tad silly.

DragonsAion
2010-07-27, 01:13 PM
Looked over poisons some more and your right I think I’ll just go with wands for now.

gallagher, that build would only be able to warp 1st lvl spells as the spell level that a spellwarp sniper can warp is equal to its class level.

Keld Denar
2010-07-27, 01:20 PM
I wonder...if you took something like Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster to progress SWS up to 9th level, what would happen if you Spellwarped an Obedient Avalanche (SpC)? It qualifies by virtue of being an area spell with a Ref save, but is kinda wonky when fired as a ray.