Wild speculation topic: Who will be the final villain?

[Shale]

Over the last 700-odd comics, the Order has picked up quite a few antagonists, and at some point they're going to have to deal with them, somehow. I'm wondering who people expect to be the last one standing. When it finally comes down to Roy & Co. vs. a villain for the fate of the world, which villain is it going to be? Obviously nobody knows what Rich what pat the story's going to take, but what are you expecting? There's a bunch of contenders, after all...

Xykon: He is the Big Bad, after all.

Redcloak: ....but The Plan wasn't his idea, was it? And for Redcloak to keep going even after his tormentor is dead would be a natural end to his character arc.

The Dark One: Speaking of who came up with the Plan, if the ritual goes through, then he's the one with the power.

The Snarl: What's worse than a bad guy determined to unleash the Snarl? The Snarl unleashed.

The IFCC: How better to show that V's deal with the devil had consequences? Plus, they've got time to wait and are playing both "main" sides against each other. Why strike until after Xykon's gone and the Order's weakened?

The Linear Guild: An attempt to seize the Snarl, or just revenge? Either way.

Or maybe somebody else we haven't seen. Maybe Tarquin! What do you think?

[Dr.Epic]

Anyone other than Xykon would be a disappointment. He's been the villain longer than anyone else and he's the most power villain that exists on that plane. Not to mention he's the Big Bad. Why should he get upstages so far in the series by some villain we just learned about. It's pretty anticlimactic.

[licoot]

I recon that the IFCC will never become a big opponent to overcome, as much as a handy plot tool, used to set things into action. I recon xykon and the order will fight over control of the snarl, until xykon/ redcloack has a change of heart just before he destroys the planet

[borg286]

I am with the camp of Xykon being the final bad guy. IIFC will continue to strive for power elsewhere, Redcloak will die in battle against Xykon defending his people, The linear guild will be split up (Nale will be killed, the succubus will probably die or be undone, Thog will find an ice-cream truck company and live his dreams of training puppies and eating ice-cream), the Snarl will be found to be something different and not an option for a main antagonist or villain.

[Lord Bingo]

I agree, Xykon IS the main antagonist of the comic and of course he will be the final challenge to overcome. True, the whole "Control the Snarl" scheme was not his idea it was Redcloak's -working of divine decree, it just so happens that Redcloak got a bit more than he bargained for when he struck up with Xykon. Still, if Redcloak manages to get Xykon to finish the ritual he is the winner, in a practical sense, but it is still Xykon the order has to stop.

It is not unthinkable that what we have learned of the Snarl might not even be true. Perhaps the remaining gods have an interest in portraying the Snarl as a bad/chaotic entity but it might be that it is something completely different.

As for the IFCC I think they merely serve a purpose but it is not unfathomable that they might have some stake in the Dark Ones ultimate plan which Redcloak is trying to bring into fruition.

Incidently if Belkar dies I believe it will be in the final climatic battle. We would miss him if the comic were to go on without him.

[Dr.Epic]

Some how I think Red Cloak is gonna bit the dust before this is all over. Tsukiko's been researching some ceremony by orders of Xykon (most like the Gate ritual) and after Red Cloak lost his phylactery, I'm sure Xykon is looking for a reason to kill him.

[Gift Jeraff]

Xykon somehow transformed into a giant monster.

What? He's a true villain and he knows it!

[fwiffo]

At the end of the the strip, Redcloak will have a change of heart. During the climactic Roy-Xykon fight, just as Xykon is about to unleash lightning bolt which will strip away Roy's final hit points, Redcloak will turn "face" and cast Xykon down the reactor shaft. As Xykon is plunged to his undoing by the Snarl, Roy and Redcloak share a moment, and then Redcloak passes away.

And if that ever happens, this will be OOTS's shark-jumping moment and I will stop reading the strip.

[Lord Bingo]

Some how I think Red Cloak is gonna bit the dust before this is all over. Tsukiko's been researching some ceremony by orders of Xykon (most like the Gate ritual) and after Red Cloak lost his phylactery, I'm sure Xykon is looking for a reason to kill him.

Why exactly would that be? Because he is angry? Make no mistake, Xykon needs Redcloak as much as Redcloak needs Xykon. It just so happens that Xykon knows that Redcloak has no choice regarding the execution of his divine mandate.

Also, it was not Redcloak who lost the phylactery -Xykon had it and lost it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Xykon somehow transformed into a giant monster.

What? He's a true villain and he knows it!
He also knows it never helps.

[Lord Bingo]

And if that ever happens, this will be OOTS's shark-jumping moment and I will stop reading the strip.

If it happens the comic will be over -so you should feel free to stop reading it:smallwink:, and I will be rejoicing as I do every time there is a Star Wars reference:smallamused: -and read it all again!

[doliest]

Xykon, though I have a question; couldn't a Mystic Theurge of high enough level control the gate? It's technically a divine and arcane caster.

[Gift Jeraff]

Xykon, though I have a question; couldn't a Mystic Theurge of high enough level control the gate? It's technically a divine and arcane caster.

Perhaps. I personally love the idea that she'll get rejected by Xykon and, as she would hate both the living and the dead, become a nihilistic psychopath intent on unmaking everyone.

But I don't see as her final enemy material.

[Red XIV]

Nothing to speculate about. We've known that Xykon is the Big Bad since the 13th strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html).

[Dr.Epic]

Why exactly would that be? Because he is angry? Make no mistake, Xykon needs Redcloak as much as Redcloak needs Xykon. It just so happens that Xykon knows that Redcloak has no choice regarding the execution of his divine mandate.

For what? The Gate? Xykon may have Tsukiko working on the Gate ritual. If she figures it out, what's the point of having TWO people who know the ritual and Tsukiko appears far more loyal than Red Cloak.


Also, it was not Redcloak who lost the phylactery -Xykon had it and lost it.

Xykon blames Red Cloak for losing his phylactery. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html)

[Kish]

Redcloak has been wearing Xykon's phylactery right up until O-Chul tore it off him.

[Dr.Epic]

Redcloak has been wearing Xykon's phylactery right up until O-Chul tore it off him.

And? Your point?

[NerfTW]

Redcloak has been wearing Xykon's phylactery right up until O-Chul tore it off him.

At which point Xykon might not trust him with it anymore. I suppose we'll see who gets it when they find it in the sewers.

The fact that Xykon failed to grab it away from Blackwing doesn't change the fact that Redcloak is the one who lost it in the first place.

[Nimrod's Son]

I think it will be Doctor Robotnik.

[Souhiro]

Well, the Sacred Order of Stick don't know anything about the Dark One. They don't know it existed ever, and his plan is know only to Goblins. I think that the Dark One is more a IFCC matter than an Order Matter. You know... 730 Strips without knowing the mere existence about their final villain...

I think that the final villain can't be among the Greater God, nor the Demons Lords. It just be too high for the party. And since they're playing D&D, not Pathfinder (In Pathfinder, the "Obtain Godhod, Defeat Evil God" thing isn't available, There is the StarStone Trial, which can made a PC into a God, putting him into the higher ranks)

The last villain only can be Xykon or Nale. Both of them are out there, wreaking havoc, and are enemies of the Sacred Order of the Stick. It's unlikely that it wound be RedCloak (He's the typical mad priest who dies performing the evil ritual) And the Order even don't know nothing about him -He is just another goblin cleric. Only Miko, O'Chul and the Azurites know about him-


Well, that are my two cents.

PD: Sorry for my awful grammar. Yo hablo español

[Kish]

Well, the Sacred Order of Stick
[...]
PD: Sorry for my awful grammar. Yo hablo español
Does something about Spanish lead to adding the word Sacred to the Order's name?

[derfenrirwolv]

Xykon, though I have a question; couldn't a Mystic Theurge of high enough level control the gate? It's technically a divine and arcane caster.

Possibly. Its also possible that the rituals both need to be done at the same time and said in harmony, something a mystic theurge couldn't do unless they cloned themselves.

[jidasfire]

Well, the Sacred Order of Stick don't know anything about the Dark One. They don't know it existed ever, and his plan is know only to Goblins. I think that the Dark One is more a IFCC matter than an Order Matter. You know... 730 Strips without knowing the mere existence about their final villain...

I think that the final villain can't be among the Greater God, nor the Demons Lords. It just be too high for the party. And since they're playing D&D, not Pathfinder (In Pathfinder, the "Obtain Godhod, Defeat Evil God" thing isn't available, There is the StarStone Trial, which can made a PC into a God, putting him into the higher ranks)

The last villain only can be Xykon or Nale. Both of them are out there, wreaking havoc, and are enemies of the Sacred Order of the Stick. It's unlikely that it wound be RedCloak (He's the typical mad priest who dies performing the evil ritual) And the Order even don't know nothing about him -He is just another goblin cleric. Only Miko, O'Chul and the Azurites know about him-


Well, that are my two cents.

PD: Sorry for my awful grammar. Yo hablo español

Not quite true as regards Redcloak. It was up until Haley and Belkar spent months running the resistance, after which you do hear them refer to Redcloak by name. Since one assumes Haley shared everything she knows during the war council with Roy, Hinjo, and O-Chul, it's a safe bet the heroes are up to speed on everything. Even if Haley didn't have tons of info, O-Chul did, and would have shared it.

As to the actual question, Xykon seems the obvious choice, if for no other reason than he's had the most time dedicated to being the villain, has struggles of his own, and is obscenely evil. However, I'm going to throw a wild theory out there. It seems to me that there are enough bad guys to go around, and perhaps everyone will get their own final boss. Roy has to throw down with Xykon, of course, and maybe V will take on the IFCC in penance for his/her deeds. Elan would have to throw down with Nale, Haley could go either way with Sabine or Tsukiko (though I personally suspect Team Evil's story ends in a lot of self-destruction). My intuition as to what's dramatically appropriate kind of falls apart after that, but you see my point. Everyone would get their moment, or more than one, against their own final boss.

[Nargrakhan]

Perhaps. I personally love the idea that she'll get rejected by Xykon and, as she would hate both the living and the dead, become a nihilistic psychopath intent on unmaking everyone.

But I don't see as her final enemy material.


Tsukiko go yandere? Oh yes... that would be delicious!

If an ordinary school girl can become a double-digit body count killing machine, I'd love to see what an arcane and divinely magic powered girl can do.

Mwa, ha, ha, ha!

[Nilan8888]

It will have to be some sort of combination of Xykon and the Snarl.

IFCC, Tarquin, the Linear Guild, the Dark One... I think all these foes will sort of run interference if they end up being foes at all. They'll be other conflicts the OOTS must overcome to get to thier goal.

Although I'm betting at least one of the four... or Xykon himself... will become a victim of the Snarl.

Not RedCloak, though. RedCloak will probably die, but I think for him to die at the hands of the Snarl is probably NOT appropriate -- although most of the others are fair game. Probably RedCloak dying at the hands of an ordinary Goblin would be most fitting and tragic.

Oh, and Tsukiko should probably die at Xykon's hands.

[Larkspur]

Mr. Scruffy, enraged at the death of Belkar, merges with the Snarl to become a giant Cat Destroyer bent on batting the world the cosmos around like a giant ping pong ball.

Seriously though, it's Xykon. Or the Dark One, if Xykon somehow screws up and doesn't manage tweak the ritual in his favor, but I don't anticipate that since he's been two steps ahead of Redcloak every other time it mattered.


Some how I think Red Cloak is gonna bit the dust before this is all over. Tsukiko's been researching some ceremony by orders of Xykon (most like the Gate ritual) and after Red Cloak lost his phylactery, I'm sure Xykon is looking for a reason to kill him.

Tsukiko has Xykon's half of the ritual, not Redcloak's. Xykon still needs the information encoded in the Crimson Mantle to get the divine half. I'm not claiming there's no way to get at it with Redcloak out of the picture- he could kill Redcloak and give the cloak to Jirix or possibly even Tsukiko, if the Mantle will work for a non-goblinoid. But there's no good reason to do that. Redcloak is both vastly more competent and vastly more driven than any possible replacement; Xykon couldn't find a better casting partner if he tried.

[Darcy]

All roads lead to Xykon IMHO. Xykon's defeat will mean they can begin rebuilding the gates that protect them from the Snarl. I feel like something will happen near the end that will pit Redcloak against Xykon- maybe Redcloak will be the one to make the final blow against Xykon? I don't know. But I see Xykon as the arch-villain.

[LuPuWei]

I think it will be Doctor Robotnik.

At least its not Humphrey Boggart...

[snikrept]

Vaarsuvius

[SPoD]

Eugene Greenhilt.

[Darth Hunterix]

Undead Miko and her new mount: Belkar.

[Cealocanth]

The IFCC are going to make a rise undoubtfullt, but will not be the last. I'm hoping for Redcloak, he seems to be the Big Bad behind the Big Bad.

[Moff Chumley]

Undead Miko and her new mount: Belkar.

/thread :smallcool:

[BridgeCity]

. . . maybe Redcloak will be the one to make the final blow against Xykon?

It would be very disappointing for me if Roy, who has the blood oath and everything, didn't get to take out Xykon. That situation reminds me of DM of the Rings where the entire campaign comes down to a non player character rolling to see if the destroy the ring, completely anti-climactic for the player characters

[LuPuWei]

Undead Miko and her new mount: Belkar.

That just sounds....dirty...

[The Succubus]

Undead Miko and her new mount: Belkar.

That just sounds....hot...

[Darcy]

It would be very disappointing for me if Roy, who has the blood oath and everything, didn't get to take out Xykon. That situation reminds me of DM of the Rings where the entire campaign comes down to a non player character rolling to see if the destroy the ring, completely anti-climactic for the player characters

That's a good point. I just don't see the comic ending without Redcloak and Xykon butting heads. Of course now that I think of it, I can't really see Redcloak coming out on top in a fight against Xykon, so...

[Dr.Epic]

Tsukiko has Xykon's half of the ritual, not Redcloak's. Xykon still needs the information encoded in the Crimson Mantle to get the divine half. I'm not claiming there's no way to get at it with Redcloak out of the picture- he could kill Redcloak and give the cloak to Jirix or possibly even Tsukiko, if the Mantle will work for a non-goblinoid. But there's no good reason to do that. Redcloak is both vastly more competent and vastly more driven than any possible replacement; Xykon couldn't find a better casting partner if he tried.

I thought that's what Tsukiko was trying to do when Xykon gave her that order: find out the ritual. I'm sure with enough research anyone could figure out how to do it. The Order of the Scribble figured out how to make Gates so what stopping someone else from learning the ritual.

And as for Xykon not being able to "find a better casting partner" how about one that knows divine, arcane, has a lot more spell slots, and is completely and blindly loyal to undead?

[BridgeCity]

That's a good point. I just don't see the comic ending without Redcloak and Xykon butting heads. Of course now that I think of it, I can't really see Redcloak coming out on top in a fight against Xykon, so...

I agree that there will most likely be a big showdown or something between Redcloak and Xykon, I just dont think it would be the final showdown of the story. Most likely Xykon survives that and is taken out by the surviving members of the order.

[Larkspur]

I thought that's what Tsukiko was trying to do when Xykon gave her that order: find out the ritual.

He ordered her to figure out the half he gave her. She could barely make sense of what she had with Redcloak's half missing; I'm sure she can't extrapolate the entire divine half. She may not be able to cast it, either- it's possible that only clerics of the Dark One can do it.


And as for Xykon not being able to "find a better casting partner" how about one that knows divine, arcane, has a lot more spell slots, and is completely and blindly loyal to undead?

As far as Xykon's casting partner is concerned, her arcane magic is useless, since he can't cast the divine half. Conceivably he could have her and Redcloak cast together, but that sort of nullifies the whole "killing Redcloak" issue. And it only takes one spell slot to cast the ritual.

In terms of general minion qualifications, Tsukiko is flighty and unreliable. She's easily distracted, and while she loves Xykon now, she really could go yandere in an instant, or just throw an adolescent snit over some perceived slight and refuse to help. Her commitment to Team Evil is total but shallow. Plus she's not half as clever as Redcloak and she's probably lower level as well.

Redcloak's commitment to Team Evil is ambivalent but incredibly deep. Once Xykon gets him away from Goblintopia he'll no longer be distractable, he'll defend Xykon nearly to the death because he needs an arcane caster and Tsukiko won't help him, and Xylon's about thirty times more effective with Redcloak acting as a prosthetic brain than he is on his own. It would be idiotically short-sighted to get rid of him before they secure another gate, and it wouldn't make much sense to do it afterwards either, unless Xykon was worried Redcloak would detect changes he made to the ritual and stop in the middle.

In short revolutionary consciousness >>>> teenage crush. And you know, it's not like Xykon has to choose between them. He's got both of them.

[fwiffo]

I don't have SOD in front of me now, but didn't it mention how the ritual requires two very high level casters? Xykon is an epic sorcerer, Redcloak is one of the main clerics of his god. Tsukiko is a small fish - she should count herself lucky to have survived the Azure City siege. I see next to no chance that she can sub for either Redcloak or Xykon on a world-changing magic like that.

[Larkspur]

I don't have SOD in front of me now, but didn't it mention how the ritual requires two very high level casters?

I'm not sure- logistically I don't think it would make sense to insist on high level casters, given the attrition rate of the Mantle Bearers. Although maybe that's the reasoning behind the Mantle's anti-aging properties?

[FlawedParadigm]

As I've posted several times, I'm totally expecting a Wormtongue/Starscream from Redcloak at some point. Honestly, I'll be surprised if the final Big Bad is Xykon. He has some of the least development of the antagonists and pretty much any of the other evil characters we've seen would make a better and more satisfying villain in the long run.

[jidasfire]

As I've posted several times, I'm totally expecting a Wormtongue/Starscream from Redcloak at some point. Honestly, I'll be surprised if the final Big Bad is Xykon. He has some of the least development of the antagonists and pretty much any of the other evil characters we've seen would make a better and more satisfying villain in the long run.

Not to be pithy or anything, but I'm guessing you haven't read Start of Darkness.

[Shale]

I don't have SOD in front of me now, but didn't it mention how the ritual requires two very high level casters? Xykon is an epic sorcerer, Redcloak is one of the main clerics of his god. Tsukiko is a small fish - she should count herself lucky to have survived the Azure City siege. I see next to no chance that she can sub for either Redcloak or Xykon on a world-changing magic like that.

In SoD, Redcloak fully expects to be able to perform the ritual despite being so low-level he can't use sixth-level spells yet. Tsukiko would do fine.

[Ikialev]

Snarl. And everyone wil die~

[FlawedParadigm]

Not to be pithy or anything, but I'm guessing you haven't read Start of Darkness.

Not to be pithy or anything, but I'm guessing you haven't read these boards very long. I quite often make SoD references. Especially on this very topic. Including in at least two other threads this week. Both of which are still on the front page. As I have repeatedly posted, everyone has a breaking point, which is why I SPECIFICALLY referenced Wormtongue as opposed to just Starscream.

Not to be pithy or anything, but I'm guessing you haven't read The Lord of the Rings. Elsewise you should know who Wormtongue is, and why, specifically, I'd reference him, since he's only famous for one thing. Yes, Xykon pretty much has historically had Redcloak by the shorts. However, it is quite possible there will either come a point where the locus of power shifts to Redcloak, perhaps because of an Epic spell he researches, or Xykon will simply go too far and Redcloak will rebel and damn the chances of his survival - much like the skull of the Eye of Fear and Flame did when Belkar suggested its use as a chamber pot.

Not to be pithy or anything, but I'm guessing you haven't read Start of Darkness, because THE VERY SAME BOOK features Xykon explicitly giving orders to MitD to EAT REDCLOAK if Redcloak betrays him, which means even Xykon is expecting it to happen. Expecting it so much that he even included explicit instructions on spitting the phylactery back out.

[jidasfire]

Not to be pithy or anything, but I'm guessing you haven't read these boards very long. I quite often make SoD references. Especially on this very topic. Including in at least two other threads this week. Both of which are still on the front page. As I have repeatedly posted, everyone has a breaking point, which is why I SPECIFICALLY referenced Wormtongue as opposed to just Starscream.

Not to be pithy or anything, but I'm guessing you haven't read The Lord of the Rings. Elsewise you should know who Wormtongue is, and why, specifically, I'd reference him, since he's only famous for one thing. Yes, Xykon pretty much has historically had Redcloak by the shorts. However, it is quite possible there will either come a point where the locus of power shifts to Redcloak, perhaps because of an Epic spell he researches, or Xykon will simply go too far and Redcloak will rebel and damn the chances of his survival - much like the skull of the Eye of Fear and Flame did when Belkar suggested its use as a chamber pot.

Not to be pithy or anything, but I'm guessing you haven't read Start of Darkness, because THE VERY SAME BOOK features Xykon explicitly giving orders to MitD to EAT REDCLOAK if Redcloak betrays him, which means even Xykon is expecting it to happen. Expecting it so much that he even included explicit instructions on spitting the phylactery back out.

Wow, you did take my smartass comment and run with it, didn't you? Perhaps I was a bit more flippant than I intended there. I try not to be a jerk on the internet, but it seemed to me like you were implying Redcloak would betray Xykon and that Xykon had very little character development. I tend to disagree with these points, as the evidence quite suggests the opposite to me. Foreshadowing, after all, doesn't always mean the opposite will happen. Not every writer is Joss Whedon.

Apologies if I was overly mean there. I'd rather not have internet enemies or anything. So...friends?

[derfenrirwolv]

Undead Miko and her new mount: Belkar.

whats she going to do, clone him and use them for roller skates?

[brilliantlight]

Most likely :xykon: although :redcloak: could go Darth Vader on him. Unlike Vader I see him doing so for an evil purpose, to make sure his evil god prevails.

[FlawedParadigm]

Wow, you did take my smartass comment and run with it, didn't you? Perhaps I was a bit more flippant than I intended there. I try not to be a jerk on the internet, but it seemed to me like you were implying Redcloak would betray Xykon and that Xykon had very little character development. I tend to disagree with these points, as the evidence quite suggests the opposite to me. Foreshadowing, after all, doesn't always mean the opposite will happen. Not every writer is Joss Whedon.

Apologies if I was overly mean there. I'd rather not have internet enemies or anything. So...friends?

I like to be the alpha smartass in most social groups. Comes of having been a comedian, I daresay. Xykon is pretty two-dimensional though. He's another stock villain who wants to rule the world, and has some minor development in that he's mostly blind to tactics and has a rivalry with Wizards, and is pretty much a ****. That's about as far his development goes. He doesn't even have a particular reason for wanting to rule the world beyond bragging rights. It's not out of revenge or because he thinks he could do better or anything. It's just to do it. He seriously has less development than Durkon and that's saying something, considering he had a book half devoted to his backstory.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Ok, wild speculation then?

The final confrontation will be:
:elan: and :haley:

Of course, I have a reason for this:

Tarquin, he knows what happened to Haley's father, and he is Elan's father. In a wild Xanatos Gambit to gain control of the Snarl for his own reasons, he will manipulate/blackmail Elan and Haley into confronting the rest of the Order of the Stick. Elan with his sense for the dramatic will take this as the perfect plot twist, and Haley of course wants to rescue her father.

It's the perfect plan.



Now watch how that doesn't happen.

[Marnath]

Mr. Scruffy. :smallcool: Think about it, he's an evil genius. He had a whole city dancing to his tune for years so he could live in the lap of luxury. Ever since that went kablooie, he's been traveling with the only people who can stop him, learning their weaknesses and subtly thwarting their plans( like blowing the barroom brawl out of proportion to get them arrested.) When they get to the last gate, he'll wait until team evil and the OoTS are both occupied and then he will go perform the ritual :smalltongue:

[Da'Shain]

I like to be the alpha smartass in most social groups. Comes of having been a comedian, I daresay. Xykon is pretty two-dimensional though. He's another stock villain who wants to rule the world, and has some minor development in that he's mostly blind to tactics and has a rivalry with Wizards, and is pretty much a ****. That's about as far his development goes. He doesn't even have a particular reason for wanting to rule the world beyond bragging rights. It's not out of revenge or because he thinks he could do better or anything. It's just to do it. He seriously has less development than Durkon and that's saying something, considering he had a book half devoted to his backstory.To run with your earlier Lord of the Rings reference: the Big Bad doesn't need development to remain the Big Bad 'til the end. Sauron as a character is almost totally a nonentity, beyond the whole Evil Demigod of Tyranny thing and the fact that Evil Cannot Comprehend Good. True, there's no "boss fight" against Sauron at the end of LotR, but that doesn't change him clearly being the driving antagonist of the story; even Saruman's last attempt at corrupting the Shire can be traced back to Sauron's own corruption of the white wizard.

Of course, I also rather disagree with Xykon being ill-developed. He's pretty fully fleshed out, and has clearly changed over time, although the most significant of his changes is relatively far in the past (namely, lichification and the resulting personality changes). And the fact that he wants to take over the world because, when it boils right down to it, he thinks it'd be cool is just as legitimate a character motivation as Redcloak's deep complex backstory of pain and woe. It might bore you, but I personally find it interesting to see a villain who's actually in it for Villainy as a life path.

[FlawedParadigm]

To run with your earlier Lord of the Rings reference: the Big Bad doesn't need development to remain the Big Bad 'til the end. Sauron as a character is almost totally a nonentity, beyond the whole Evil Demigod of Tyranny thing and the fact that Evil Cannot Comprehend Good. True, there's no "boss fight" against Sauron at the end of LotR, but that doesn't change him clearly being the driving antagonist of the story; even Saruman's last attempt at corrupting the Shire can be traced back to Sauron's own corruption of the white wizard.

Of course, I also rather disagree with Xykon being ill-developed. He's pretty fully fleshed out, and has clearly changed over time, although the most significant of his changes is relatively far in the past (namely, lichification and the resulting personality changes). And the fact that he wants to take over the world because, when it boils right down to it, he thinks it'd be cool is just as legitimate a character motivation as Redcloak's deep complex backstory of pain and woe. It might bore you, but I personally find it interesting to see a villain who's actually in it for Villainy as a life path.

Rich is, to be frank, a far better writer than Tolkien was when it comes to characters. Tolkien was good with history, world backdrops, and languages, but every single one of his characters SUCKED. Thorin and Bombur aside, very few people could tell any of the dwarves in The Hobbit apart. Very few of the characters changed, they just became more of what they already were. Aragorn, Merry, and Pippen are the only ones who really did any kind of growing. I _like_ LotR, but I do not deceive myself into believing that the characters are interesting or, in fact, much but wooden (this goes doubly for the Ents.)

So far as Xykon...

I don't think becoming a lich changed anything about his personality. He already had very little regard for any life but his own, he simply no longer had a life afterwards. His news powers let him breed new and more twisted cruelties, but as he continued advancing in spell level, such power would have come to him anyhow. He's perhaps even more arrogant afterwards, and extending his lifespan certainly increased the amount of evil he's been able to inflict upon the world, but he - much like most Tolkien characters - simply became more of what he already was.

The only real difference between him and Belkar aside from the physical is that Xykon is more likely to pursue a long-term goal, but still he still goes at it with brute force, the same as Belkar. That is perhaps one trait immortality granted Xykon; it's suggested he was more like Belkar pre-lichdom and did whatever evil he felt like doing at the time, so it might be an immortal Belkar might gain that same trait. Heck, Belkar at least does something _other_ than killing well, he cooks. Xykon can't even claim that much depth of character.

[Nimrod's Son]

Tolkien was good with history, world backdrops, and languages, but every single one of his characters SUCKED.
Gollum would like a word with you.

[FlawedParadigm]

Gollum would like a word with you.

"My precioussssssssss" is two words.

[Larkspur]

even Saruman's last attempt at corrupting the Shire can be traced back to Sauron's own corruption of the white wizard.

While that's technically correct, in the sense that "Aragorn's presence in the story can be traced back to Sauron tricking Iluvatar into nuking Numenor" is technically correct, from a proximate standpoint it had much more to do with Saruman taking a swipe at Gandalf, which was a rivalry that was set up by Varda's massive lack of people skills rather than Sauron's influence. Saruman was probably nastier about it due to his stint on Team Evil, but taking over the Shire was hardly one of Sauron's policy objectives.

[Nimrod's Son]

"My precioussssssssss" is two words.
Ah yes, I'd forgotten that's the only thing he says in the whole story. :smallsigh:

[Asta Kask]

Some how I think Red Cloak is gonna bit the dust before this is all over. Tsukiko's been researching some ceremony by orders of Xykon (most like the Gate ritual) and after Red Cloak lost his phylactery, I'm sure Xykon is looking for a reason to kill him.

Xykon needs a reason to kill people?

[FlawedParadigm]

Ah yes, I'd forgotten that's the only thing he says in the whole story. :smallsigh:

Oh, by no means. But that set-up you gave me was priceless. More to the point though, Smeagol was just the same thing as the majority of the other characters. In the end, he never actually changed; he just became more of the same of what he already was. He was already a conniving little sneak before he came upon his precious, and he remained a conniving little sneak after, although it was less of his own fault by that point. Yes, he took a stab at redemption, but much like Miko it came far too late to ever stand a chance, and his accidental death wasn't redeeming at all, it was just accidental. Which, by the way, I think was another mistake Tolkien made, but that's another discussion.

[brilliantlight]

While that's technically correct, in the sense that "Aragorn's presence in the story can be traced back to Sauron tricking Iluvatar into nuking Numenor" is technically correct, from a proximate standpoint it had much more to do with Saruman taking a swipe at Gandalf, which was a rivalry that was set up by Varda's massive lack of people skills rather than Sauron's influence. Saruman was probably nastier about it due to his stint on Team Evil, but taking over the Shire was hardly one of Sauron's policy objectives.

Sauron didn't "trick" Iluvatar into nuking Numenor. It is quite clear that Sauron himself was shocked by it. He was laughing on his throne when Numenor started to sink and was "killed" in the sinking. If he thought Numenor itself would be sunk he would have left the island. The way I see it he sent the cream of Numenor's army to get creamed and planned to invade the island with orcs or something and turn into a Mordor type area.

[Larkspur]

Sauron didn't "trick" Iluvatar into nuking Numenor. It is quite clear that Sauron himself was shocked by it. He was laughing on his throne when Numenor started to sink and was "killed" in the sinking.

He got Iluvatar to drown a bunch of innocent people, destroyed Numenor, and permanently cut Valinor off from Middle Earth. I'd trade a fana for that. Things may not have gone exactly according to his original plan, but any way you look at it, that's a massive Own Goal for the good guys. Why do you think he was cracking up?

I suppose 'tricked' may be giving him too much agency in that whole chain of events, but he deliberately induced the good guys to shoot themselves in the face. He just didn't realize they'd do it with a bazooka instead of a hand gun.

[Nimrod's Son]

Smeagol was just the same thing as the majority of the other characters. In the end, he never actually changed; he just became more of the same of what he already was.
I fundamentally disagree that the mark of a great character is the amount of change he or she goes through during the story.

Take, say, Napoleon Dynamite: I find him to be one of the more memorable characters in recent years, despite the fact that throughout the entire film he learns pretty much nothing. Sure, he has a minor victory at the end, but you still know he's going to continue to suck at life. If someone who doesn't change one iota from beginning to end can still be engaging, that to me is every bit as much a great character as one that we see going through deep personal revelations.

[Detrinex]

Having any one villain makes the story one dimensional. More is better!

[TheMac04]

I don't know, I think having Xykon be the final fight would be a little too straightforward for Rich. My bets on the Order vs. The Snarl. Or possibly Everyone vs. The Snarl. Yeah, I could see Redcloak dying heroically after switching sides. And I think the Linear Guild would fight for good if the universe itself were at stake. Okay, maybe not Sabine, but still.

[FlawedParadigm]

I fundamentally disagree that the mark of a great character is the amount of change he or she goes through during the story.

Take, say, Napoleon Dynamite: I find him to be one of the more memorable characters in recent years, despite the fact that throughout the entire film he learns pretty much nothing. Sure, he has a minor victory at the end, but you still know he's going to continue to suck at life. If someone who doesn't change one iota from beginning to end can still be engaging, that to me is every bit as much a great character as one that we see going through deep personal revelations.

Uh...what's a Napoleon Dynamite?

[Marnath]

Uh...what's a Napoleon Dynamite?

You never saw that movie? O.o
Lol neither did I. It was a few years ago, it was popular in the U.S.

[FlawedParadigm]

Oh. Well there's at least two good reasons I wouldn't be familiar with it then.

[TheMac04]

Oh. Well there's at least two good reasons I wouldn't be familiar with it then.

Okay, so you don't live in America....but why it being a few years ago? Are you a baby (which would be pretty cool. Regardless of the truth, please just say you're a baby anyway)?

[FlawedParadigm]

Well, I was more going with a) a few years ago I didn't have enough spare income to be seeing movies with any regularity as used to be my custom and b) I tend to avoid popular things until long after the hype has died down - I didn't see Titanic until about 5 years after its release to video and wasn't super impressed with it - but then since the hype had long died by then, my expectations didn't involve being super impressed, and so I was able to avoid a great deal of disappointment.

But yeah, not familiar it, beyond vaguely remembering the name now that it's been brought up.

[TheMac04]

Well, I was more going with a) a few years ago I didn't have enough spare income to be seeing movies with any regularity as used to be my custom and b) I tend to avoid popular things until long after the hype has died down - I didn't see Titanic until about 5 years after its release to video and wasn't super impressed with it - but then since the hype had long died by then, my expectations didn't involve being super impressed, and so I was able to avoid a great deal of disappointment.

But yeah, not familiar it, beyond vaguely remembering the name now that it's been brought up.

It's really the type of movie that you immediately hate or immediately love. It's also extremely weird.

[Nimrod's Son]

It wasn't only popular in America. Very few films are.

But anyway, it was the first example of a well-known character who has literally no development that popped into my head; I wouldn't worry about it. If you couldn't figure out what I was talking about from context, then no amount of further explanation is going to make any difference.

[TheMac04]

It wasn't only popular in America. Very few films are.

But anyway, it was the first example of a well-known character who has literally no development that popped into my head; I wouldn't worry about it. If you couldn't figure out what I was talking about from context, then no amount of further explanation is going to make any difference.

It also served as a means of going way the hell off-topic.

[Warren Dew]

Tolkien was good with history, world backdrops, and languages, but every single one of his characters SUCKED. ... Very few of the characters changed, they just became more of what they already were.
That's actually a strength, not a weakness. Most people's characters don't change. Heck, my 78 year old mother has a special affinity for my 2 year old daughter, because at heart, my mother is the same little girl she was 76 years ago. Supporting characters should not, generally, show a lot of change.

It can be good if the protagonists show some character change, yes - but both Bilbo and Frodo change. Bilbo changes substantially, from a shy and retiring homebody to a self confident and venturesome adult.


So far as Xykon...

I don't think becoming a lich changed anything about his personality. He already had very little regard for any life but his own, he simply no longer had a life afterwards. His news powers let him breed new and more twisted cruelties, but as he continued advancing in spell level, such power would have come to him anyhow. He's perhaps even more arrogant afterwards, and extending his lifespan certainly increased the amount of evil he's been able to inflict upon the world, but he - much like most Tolkien characters - simply became more of what he already was.

Xykon was actually pretty affable before he became a lich; he was really only arrogant afterwards.

[TheMac04]

Xykon was actually pretty affable before he became a lich; he was really only arrogant afterwards.

He's still sort of affable. Evil, but affable. He's just more powerful. Less so, but I the trait is definitely still there.

[FlawedParadigm]

It wasn't only popular in America. Very few films are.

But anyway, it was the first example of a well-known character who has literally no development that popped into my head; I wouldn't worry about it. If you couldn't figure out what I was talking about from context, then no amount of further explanation is going to make any difference.

Yes, see, there's this thing called subjectivity - you may be familiar with it, although that does not appear to be the case - but what it means is that your example of a character with "literally no development" doesn't fly very well if I don't know anything about the character. As you may have noticed we seem to have different ideas of what constitutes development. As such, your idea of "no development" may not coincide with mine, so your example is useless to the topic at hand.

Now, if we've finished with the needlessly condescending backhanded comments, I feel a character is flat and uninteresting if they don't grow, change, or learn something of significance over the course of the story. Redcloak, and to some extent Nale, have noticeably fit these criteria one or more times, whereas Xykon has been the same wisecracking, affably evil, sadistically cruel and arrogant proponent of brute force from beginning to present, barring a brief moment of doubt during his conflict with the spirit of Soon Kim. It just seems that - assuming Xykon doesn't develop much more - that given Rich's previous habits, a more interesting villain (possibly even one not introduced yet!) is likely to end up being the major pain by the end. Heck, there's really more insight into the motives of Tsukiko than there is Xykon, and she's still the new girl.

I would be pretty well surprised and a tad disappointed if Xykon as we know him now ended up being the head honcho.

If nothing else, there's a lot more dramatic tension if all five gates are destroyed and the Snarl gets to manifest or do whatever it is the Snarl is doing, It'd be a little anti-climatic if all this set-up to the Snarl was given but it never got any actual screen time. All evidence indicates that if Redcloak's plan goes through, everyone is pretty much screwed - although later evidence may change this.

[Kish]

If nothing else, there's a lot more dramatic tension if all five gates are destroyed and the Snarl gets to manifest or do whatever it is the Snarl is doing, It'd be a little anti-climatic if all this set-up to the Snarl was given but it never got any actual screen time. All evidence indicates that if Redcloak's plan goes through, everyone is pretty much screwed - although later evidence may change this.
Destroying all five gates =/=Redcloak's plan.

[Larkspur]

Destroying all five gates =/=Redcloak's plan.

Indeed. It's not even Plan B. It's Plan C at best, and I can't imagine Xykon or Redcloak deliberately destroying a Gate themselves. Xykon gains nothing by it, and while Redcloak's willing to risk destroying the world I don't think he do it on purpose, especially now that there's Goblintopia to protect.

SoD
Actually, it's not clear what would happen if Redcloak's plan works perfectly, the Dark One is genuine in his intentions, and all the gods go along with the stickup.

How much power do the gods really have at this point? The world building stage is over. A lot of the goblins' problems are world-building level- the short lifespan designed to keep them low-level for instance- and probably couldn't be fixed. They're not going to want to make a World 3.0; that's a LOT of work, and as far as we know the Dark One isn't even asking for that.

The goblins need territory, but it's not clear the gods can obtain it for them. It may be too late to create it. They could convince their followers to undertake an ethnic cleansing campaign, maybe; gods are good at that. But they're going to have a problem in that most of the cleansees will be their own worshipers. And there's no foundation in the pre-existing theology for clearing space so goblins have somewhere pleasant to live, so it's going to be hard to convince their cleric to go along with it.

So it's quite possible that the Plan will come down to nothing more than a multilateral edict of "No more using the goblinoids for free XP!" Hardly the end of the world.

[SPoD]

I feel a character is flat and uninteresting if they don't grow, change, or learn something of significance over the course of the story. Redcloak, and to some extent Nale, have noticeably fit these criteria one or more times, whereas Xykon has been the same wisecracking, affably evil, sadistically cruel and arrogant proponent of brute force from beginning to present, barring a brief moment of doubt during his conflict with the spirit of Soon Kim. It just seems that - assuming Xykon doesn't develop much more - that given Rich's previous habits, a more interesting villain (possibly even one not introduced yet!) is likely to end up being the major pain by the end. Heck, there's really more insight into the motives of Tsukiko than there is Xykon, and she's still the new girl.

I think you're mistakenly thinking that character growth can only happen in the positive direction, and that getting worse is not growth or change.

SOD:Xykon becomes significantly worse after becoming a lich, because he has absolutely no tethers to the world anymore. He seems to have no motivation because he has no motivation--and that's the horror of it. He has no good reason for wanting to kill, maim, destroy. He's an absolute monster, where before, he was a man (however evil he may have been). He still had wants and desires and feelings. The tragedy of Xykon is that he didn't KNOW he had anything left to lose until he had already lost it, and by that point, nothing mattered anymore.

Xykon is anything but affable in the scene where he discovers he can't taste coffee anymore. That's your moment of change right there. Everything after that is an attempt to cover up the change with distractions and wisecracks.

[FlawedParadigm]

{Scrubbed}

[Nimrod's Son]

Yes, see, there's this thing called subjectivity - you may be familiar with it, although that does not appear to be the case - but what it means is that your example of a character with "literally no development" doesn't fly very well if I don't know anything about the character.
This after you've just laid into someone for not getting your Wormtongue reference? Man oh man. :smallamused:

You may not know the character I'm talking about, but I still gave you plenty to go on. But you appear to have stopped reading my post at the words "Napoleon Dynamite", since your entire reply to my post was


Uh...what's a Napoleon Dynamite?
...without any attempt to address anything else I said, or even (God forbid) use Google.


As you may have noticed we seem to have different ideas of what constitutes development. As such, your idea of "no development" may not coincide with mine, so your example is useless to the topic at hand.
I don't think we necessarily do have different ideas of what constitutes development. Well, apart from what SPoD said about it working both ways, that is.

All I was saying, however, is that I don't believe development is always necessary to creating good characters.


Now, if we've finished with the needlessly condescending backhanded comments
Aw, come on. You want to be the Alpha Smartass, you're gonna have to learn to deal with a little competition. :smalltongue:


I feel a character is flat and uninteresting if they don't grow, change, or learn something of significance over the course of the story.
And the entire point I was making was that (and this is a direct quote from the first line of my post) I fundamentally disagree.


People have asked why I have such a low post count when I have a long-standing account. It's because I get tired of how few people here can actually _read_.
Yes, don't we all.

[FlawedParadigm]

Indeed. It's not even Plan B. It's Plan C at best, and I can't imagine Xykon or Redcloak deliberately destroying a Gate themselves. Xykon gains nothing by it, and while Redcloak's willing to risk destroying the world I don't think he do it on purpose, especially now that there's Goblintopia to protect.

SoD
Actually, it's not clear what would happen if Redcloak's plan works perfectly, the Dark One is genuine in his intentions, and all the gods go along with the stickup.

How much power do the gods really have at this point? The world building stage is over. A lot of the goblins' problems are world-building level- the short lifespan designed to keep them low-level for instance- and probably couldn't be fixed. They're not going to want to make a World 3.0; that's a LOT of work, and as far as we know the Dark One isn't even asking for that.

The goblins need territory, but it's not clear the gods can obtain it for them. It may be too late to create it. They could convince their followers to undertake an ethnic cleansing campaign, maybe; gods are good at that. But they're going to have a problem in that most of the cleansees will be their own worshipers. And there's no foundation in the pre-existing theology for clearing space so goblins have somewhere pleasant to live, so it's going to be hard to convince their cleric to go along with it.

So it's quite possible that the Plan will come down to nothing more than a multilateral edict of "No more using the goblinoids for free XP!" Hardly the end of the world.


Larkspur:
Well, it also depends on the exact way the gates are destroyed/manipulated/et cetera. According to Shojo's telling of Soon's escapades, if the Gates are all destroyed, the Snarl will break loose and unmake creation much like it did the first time. Or worse, one of the gates could be manipulated in such a fashion that the Snarl could be used to hold the world hostage and be used to make a world-wide dystopia (or, theoretically, a utopia, but it's doubtful that anyone who wants to seize control of a god-killing abomination is going to want to use it for anything nice). This appears to be Xykon's intention. Either of those possibilities pretty much end in people being screwed.

Redcloak's intent is a bit more benign - at least currently. Right now he just wants the gods to stop screwing over the goblinoid races and giving them as fair a chance to live as the humanoid races do. Although I should point out that just as long lifespans have not led elves to dominate the world, short ones are probably the least of problems goblins have holding back their advancement. Territory isn't really a problem if the gods are forced to bargain with Redcloak either; look at the results of this adventure - the Wooden Forest is mostly cleared out, Xykon has vacated the Redmountain Hills so there's a power vacuum there, and there's at least 50 or so dead black dragons, so anywhere goblins were afraid to settle because of those are all cleared up. Most of the goblinoids don't know all this yet, but the gods can inform them pretty quickly.

But even if we assume Redcloak does his thing in the most benign manner possible, there's still the fact that the Snarl would be held at bay entirely by Redcloak and/or Xykon, and even if they re-sealed it (HAHAHA YEAH RIGHT) and gave up villainy (PFFFFFFFFFT), we're still stuck with a huge boost to the populations of several often evil races a couple of generations down the line - and Redcloak and Xykon still alive if neither's met a violent end. What happens if they get bored and decide to resume villainy then? Oh, and they'll also be the two guaranteed to know how to unseal the gate(s) this time, since they sealed them.

About the only way the world MIGHT NOT be eventually screwed by Redcloak's success (it's probably screwed by Xykon's success) is that if the Snarl is no longer the near-mindless frothing mass of god-slaying chaos it originally was and has developed a taste for diplomatically settling its frustrations. Not only would that be a comically massive disappointment to Team Evil, but it's probably one of the small windows of hope should Team Evil look to be succeeding.

SPoD:

Not so. Saruman - although I did not previously use him as an example - did have growth, even if was only ever downward. So far as Xykon having desires and feelings as a man, it seemed his main motivators even then were "doing evil", "leaving an evil legacy", and boredom. He seems to be literally devoted to being a cliche and knowing it. The most humanity we ever see out of him is his first scene in SoD showing actual grief over the death of a living thing. The coffee scene is something I more see as the keystone to his devotion to being a cliche; his coffee obsession before was in however minor a way at least something to distinguish him by. The loss of that through the inability to taste it not only severely grilled his grille, but it was the final straw so far as his difference from being a one- or two- dimensional villain.

He has no good reason for being evil, no good reason for wanting to rule the world, and no good reason for doing anything else - or at least, if he has any reasons for any of this, he's not sharing them. Until he does, I see him as funny in a dead baby comedy kind of way, and as a way to move the plot along, but as a character? Not really so much. I mean, at least the attack on Azure City...Redcloak was emotionally involved. Xykon didn't even hate the people he was killing, he just removed them as obstacles to "the Macguffin." I doubt he could even describe what four people in that room looked like if he were asked now - sure, he'll remember "Ugly", and probably "Fu Manchu", and maaaaybe the "crazy beige woman", but that'd be it, even assuming he remembers all three of them. Amusing character, yes. Interesting character, not to me.

[BridgeCity]

{Scrubbed}

[FlawedParadigm]

This after you've just laid into someone for not getting your Wormtongue reference? Man oh man. :smallamused:

Wait, what? Where? I didn't lay into anyone for not getting any reference. I don't even see anyone not getting the reference. The only person I see going off of anyone for not getting a reference is...oh. Huh. Interesting.


Aw, come on. You want to be the Alpha Smartass, you're gonna have to learn to deal with a little competition. :smalltongue:

Yes, little. On that we agree.

[FlawedParadigm]

{Scrubbed}

[Nimrod's Son]

Wait, what? Where? I didn't lay into anyone for not getting any reference. I don't even see anyone not getting the reference. The only person I see going off of anyone for not getting a reference is...oh. Huh. Interesting.


Not to be pithy or anything, but I'm guessing you haven't read The Lord of the Rings. Elsewise you should know who Wormtongue is, and why, specifically, I'd reference him, since he's only famous for one thing.

Interesting indeed.


Yes, little. On that we agree.
If you say so, chap.


my chief purpose is to draw attention to a $word$.
:smalleek: Swords?! Where?!

[BridgeCity]

. . . you should check the meaning of the word literacy. Even if I had made a mistake there - which, I hasten to remind you, I did not - literacy is the ability to read. It does not necessarily also confer the ability to write or type, so even if there had been a mistake there, it would have been related to my typing, not my ability to comprehend something I read.

As an extra point, I can use whatever punctuation I want to draw attention to a word, if my chief purpose is to draw attention to a $word$. Isn't it neat how that works? For another extra point, here's an anthill for you. Now you can pick on people your own size. :smallsmile:

One, your definition of literacy is incorrect, as it is does in fact relate to both reading and writing. In fact writing correctly is a major factor of literacy and all it would have taken was one look in a dictionary, or even a google search, to have known that.

Two, by comparing me to the size of an ant you display that you willingly pick on people who are smaller than you . . . I'm not really sure why you are trying to make yourself look like an arrogant bully, but hey, you can if you want. It makes me the David to your Goliath :smallsmile:

But that is enough on that, I don't care enough to continue this.

On topic, I would like to see Redcloak turn on Xykon, but I would rather he does not join help the OOTS. Just because they oppose the same person doesn't mean they suddenly put aside all their own differences. If the final battle came down to all three of them fighting at the same time it would be pretty cool.

[JonestheSpy]

Rich is, to be frank, a far better writer than Tolkien was when it comes to characters. Tolkien was good with history, world backdrops, and languages, but every single one of his characters SUCKED. Thorin and Bombur aside, very few people could tell any of the dwarves in The Hobbit apart. Very few of the characters changed, they just became more of what they already were. Aragorn, Merry, and Pippen are the only ones who really did any kind of growing. I _like_ LotR, but I do not deceive myself into believing that the characters are interesting or, in fact, much but wooden (this goes doubly for the Ents.)


Man, you really, really weren't paying attention when you read those books.

As for the OotS finale, I'm pretty confidant it will be Xykon. I think he'll try to dump Redcloak and replace him with Tsukiko for the ritual, and I'm hoping that will cause Redcloak to realize the only chance of stopping Xykon from destroying the goblin race along with everybody else is to ally with Team Good. As I've mentioned before, if the final confrontation is in the dwarven lands and Durkon dies before that, the OotS are going to need a high level cleric...

I suspect we'll see the IFCC make their play at Girard's Gate. The OotS will be close to defeating Xykon through a combination of lots of planning, Team Evil's overconfidence, and maybe help from the Empire o' Blood. THe IFCC takes over V at just the right moment to mess everything up, the gate gets destroyed, and Durkon probably dies heroically somewhere in there.

[kolbaldoracle]

you need to remember the oracle did say that durkon and belker were gonna die. also at one point when xykon and redcloak are talking about the sides in the battle a demon roach says that theres at least 5. now that might be for comedic effect but it could be hinting at something else

[Lachanadan]

what the baator/abyss are you doing people? are you really nuts?

i have never seen a bigger troll than person x* and you are still trying to respond to him/her.

please try to stay on topic and dont even pay attention to trolls.


*you know who s/he is...:wink:

[Gray Mage]

It's true that Durkon will die, but unlike Belkar he can come back as it's not said he will stay dead.

As for the final villain, if I had to bet I'd put my chips with either Xykon or an aspect of the Snarl or the Snarl itself. I mean ,more vulnerable than a mortal of the same lv? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) It's clear foreshadowing IMHO.

[Laeranu]

I personally think the IFCC / the Linier Guild (if you don't understand why I put the / then read comic #668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)).

I mean their the guys behind it all, overseeing everything that goes on below.
Like some kind of demon gods. They act like they don't want 'Team Evil' to win or 'The Order of the Stick', which means that there a whole other team in the plot. It seems obvious that after the OotS defeats 'team Evil', ( or the other way around) the IFCC / The Linier Guild are going to step in defeat the OotS ( or at least try) and basicly unleash the demonic races into our world.

... or at least thats what I think will happen, but really, who knows? Rich has said that where only about halfway through the plot, there will probably be loads more villains by then.

[Laeranu]

Redcloak: ....but The Plan wasn't his idea, was it? And for Redcloak to keep going even after his tormentor is dead would be a natural end to his character arc.

If you think that Redcloak is going to carry on being evil after Zykon dies you obviously haven't read 'Start of Darkness' Shale. No offence or anything.

Also, the plan was his idea.

[SPoD]

SPoD:

Not so. Saruman - although I did not previously use him as an example - did have growth, even if was only ever downward. So far as Xykon having desires and feelings as a man, it seemed his main motivators even then were "doing evil", "leaving an evil legacy", and boredom. He seems to be literally devoted to being a cliche and knowing it. The most humanity we ever see out of him is his first scene in SoD showing actual grief over the death of a living thing. The coffee scene is something I more see as the keystone to his devotion to being a cliche; his coffee obsession before was in however minor a way at least something to distinguish him by. The loss of that through the inability to taste it not only severely grilled his grille, but it was the final straw so far as his difference from being a one- or two- dimensional villain.

He has no good reason for being evil, no good reason for wanting to rule the world, and no good reason for doing anything else - or at least, if he has any reasons for any of this, he's not sharing them. Until he does, I see him as funny in a dead baby comedy kind of way, and as a way to move the plot along, but as a character? Not really so much. I mean, at least the attack on Azure City...Redcloak was emotionally involved. Xykon didn't even hate the people he was killing, he just removed them as obstacles to "the Macguffin." I doubt he could even describe what four people in that room looked like if he were asked now - sure, he'll remember "Ugly", and probably "Fu Manchu", and maaaaybe the "crazy beige woman", but that'd be it, even assuming he remembers all three of them. Amusing character, yes. Interesting character, not to me.

You say one-dimensional villain like its a bad thing. SOD Xykon is a realistic deconstruction of what it takes to actually take a human and turn him into the standard one-dimensional villain we are accustomed to seeing in hackneyed fantasy. Remember that OOTS is, in large parts, metacommentary on OTHER fantasy stories. If he's a cliche, it's because Rich wanted to comment on that cliche and its place in literature.

[Shale]

If you think that Redcloak is going to carry on being evil after Zykon dies you obviously haven't read 'Start of Darkness' Shale. No offence or anything.

Also, the plan was his idea.

I meant that the Plan wasn't Xykon's idea. Wasn't Redcloak's, either, of course, but it's his cause.

And if you don't think he'd keep being evil without Xykon...well, the last thing RC wants to do is admit that he was wrong. He's already doubled down on his atrocities time and time again rather than start over from scratch; he might need to find a new caster with Xykon dead (and remember, Tsukiko could be that caster), but he'd stay ruthless.

[JonestheSpy]

he might need to find a new caster with Xykon dead (and remember, Tsukiko could be that caster), but he'd stay ruthless.

I seriously doubt anything could make Redcloak and Tsukiko work together if Xykon was gone.

[TheMac04]

Snarl fused Xykon somehow. Cliche, but awesome.

[Larkspur]

People have asked why I have such a low post count when I have a long-standing account.

Really? The idea that anyone cares strikes me as fantastically improbable.


Although I should point out that just as long lifespans have not led elves to dominate the world, short ones are probably the least of problems goblins have holding back their advancement.

The difficulty curve for leveling means that the benefits to long lifespans are relatively negligible; you'd have to be slaughtering massive numbers of enemies to keep leveling after a certain point. It's not comparable.

I also doubt anything in the course of the comic besides the occupation of Azure City has done much to resolve the territory problem- the mountains are already somewhere the goblins could live but don't want to.

SoD
What happens if they get bored and decide to resume villainy then?

Redcloak has no real interest in villainy and actually has little emotional aptitude for it. I doubt he'd bother with it after the success of the Plan. And it's very much in his interest to reseal the rifts- no point in having Goblintopia devoured by the Snarl.

Xykon would continue immediately, of course, but any meaningful "success" of the Plan, at this point, would have to include Xykon's death, because once the ritual is completed and he realizes he was tricked, the goblins are going to have a deadly enemy. So that's not really an issue either.


If you think that Redcloak is going to carry on being evil after Zykon dies you obviously haven't read 'Start of Darkness' Shale. No offence or anything.

What? If anything SoD proves the reverse- given an opportunity to quit, Redcloak opted to continue at great personal cost. Xykon may be determining the pace of their progress, but of the two of them it's Redcloak who's most committed to the final goal. He doesn't need Xykon to spur him on.

[Kish]

I personally think the IFCC / the Linier Guild (if you don't understand why I put the / then read comic #668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)).

I mean their the guys behind it all, overseeing everything that goes on below.

No. They're third-stringer villains who act like they're the guys behind it all.


Rich has said that where only about halfway through the plot,

Telephone game?

[TheMac04]

No. They're third-stringer villains who act like they're the guys behind it all.

Telephone game?
The Linear Guild maybe, but the fiends? We're not sure yet.

[Gray Mage]

The Linear Guild maybe, but the fiends? We're not sure yet.

But the fiends can't interfere directly in the material plane, which kind of make things harder for them. Besides, the ones that represent them that can act is the LG, who are not that impressive.

[137beth]

It's true that Durkon will die, but unlike Belkar he can come back as it's not said he will stay dead.

As for the final villain, if I had to bet I'd put my chips with either Xykon or an aspect of the Snarl or the Snarl itself. I mean ,more vulnerable than a mortal of the same lv? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) It's clear foreshadowing IMHO.

My guess on Durkon is that he could be reanimated by some necromancer (probably Xykon) and end up as part of an undead army attacking his homeland. After all, that would mean that his return would spell doom for his home, as predicted in Origins of the PCs. And he would be returning posthumously...

Anyways on the final villain, it would probably end with either OOTS vs. Xykon, or else the PCs arrive just as the snarl is released, and then somehow defeat the snarl.

[Gray Mage]

Nothing says he would cause death and destruction, just that they would happen when he returns. Even if he did, he could sacrifice himself to stop team evil/the IFCC from controling the gate by destroying it, forcing them to go to the one in his homeland, fulfilling the prediction.

[Rin_Hunter]

I'm personally thinking that the final stage of the story will be set out like a video game RPG with multiple forms and final bosses.

Redcloak, Tsukiko and Xykon (Is they are still on the same side by this point)
Snarl
Dark One

In that order. Just seems like the kind of thing that could happen, y'know?

[TheMac04]

But the fiends can't interfere directly in the material plane, which kind of make things harder for them. Besides, the ones that represent them that can act is the LG, who are not that impressive.
Yeah, but I was responding to your saying that they were third-stringers, pretending to be behind it all. They're almost certainly going to be important again.

Also, I like Rin's idea.

[Kish]

Yeah, but I was responding to your

Gray Mage is not me and I am not Gray Mage.

And I'll say it again: Xykon and Redcloak are first-stringer villains. The Linear Guild are second-stringer villains. The IFCC? Third-stringer villains. That doesn't mean they're not dangerous, but even if they eat Vaarsuvius' soul whole, they'll never be as plot-central as Xykon, Redcloak, or the Linear Guild.

[TheMac04]

Gray Mage is not me and I am not Gray Mage.

And I'll say it again: Xykon and Redcloak are first-stringer villains. The Linear Guild are second-stringer villains. The IFCC? Third-stringer villains. That doesn't mean they're not dangerous, but even if they eat Vaarsuvius' soul whole, they'll never be as plot-central as Xykon, Redcloak, or the Linear Guild.
I don't really have much to say about anything else you said, because it's all speculation and there's no point arguing it, but I will give my excuse that I'm sleep-deprived and didn't notice. Sorry.

[Gray Mage]

Yeah, but I was responding to your saying that they were third-stringers, pretending to be behind it all. They're almost certainly going to be important again.

Also, I like Rin's idea.

Ok, just note that I wasn't the one that said that, Kish did. :smalltongue:

Edit:Swordsage'd.

Besides, the fiends only have one real chance to get the gates, V. After they use that in the western gate, it's over for them, as the LG will not be able to control the northen one.

[TheMac04]

Ok, just note that I wasn't the one that said that, Kish did. :smalltongue:

Edit:Swordsage'd.

Besides, the fiends only have one real chance to get the gates, V. After they use that in the western gate, it's over for them, as the LG will not be able to control the northen one.
My memory's fuzzy, were the gates part of their overall goal?

[Kish]

All we know about their overall goal is that it involves causing chaos and contention among everyone else, and they value the Linear Guild for their status as total morons.

Oh, and if their plan succeeds, they expect to have enough power to slaughter hundreds of good dragons easily.

[DragonOfUndeath]

the IFCC gains ownership of her/his soul when she dies! unless s/he dies near the start of battle the IFCC can't actually own her soul

[TheMac04]

the IFCC gains ownership of her/his soul when she dies! unless s/he dies near the start of battle the IFCC can't actually own her soul
They don't have to have V's soul to be integral to the plot.

[Kish]

the IFCC gains ownership of her/his soul when she dies!
Really? That seems to be markedly absent in the contract Vaarsuvius agreed to with the fiends. Vaarsuvius was the only one who brought up Vaarsuvius dying as a precondition. The fiends immediately changed the subject. That looks awfully suspicious to me.

And even if Vaarsuvius' assumption was right and they only get control of Vaarsuvius' soul after Vaarsuvius dies, that just means whichever part of their plan hinges on using their time controlling Vaarsuvius includes a means of making him/her die when they want him/her to.

[Rin_Hunter]

Really? That seems to be markedly absent in the contract Vaarsuvius agreed to with the fiends. Vaarsuvius was the only one who brought up Vaarsuvius dying as a precondition. The fiends immediately changed the subject. That looks awfully suspicious to me.

And even if Vaarsuvius' assumption was right and they only get control of Vaarsuvius' soul after Vaarsuvius dies, that just means whichever part of their plan hinges on using their time controlling Vaarsuvius includes a means of making him/her die when they want him/her to.

It does seem awfully likely that the IFCC will take control of V while he's alive for their bidding.

I was sure the phrase "At an unspecified point in time" was used by the IFCC, but looking back I can't find it, so I guess I'm imagining.

[Larkspur]

It occurs to me that with the IFCC involved, Redcloak is spoiled for choice as far as arcane casters are concerned. Without Xykon he loses Tsukiko, but there's still Nale, Sabine and possessed!V. If we assume the IFCC want the ritual to go forward (which they don't at present because they don't know about it, but it's going to cause chaos for the gods, so if they ever happen to eavesdrop on Team Evil they're likely to endorse it), that's three potential casting partners they can supply who are likely to be in the vicinity of a gate.

It would also give the Linear Guild something semi-important to do if they survive to the final confrontation, and parallel their appearance in Dorukan's Dungeon at the beginning of the story. So there's a sort of narrative symmetry to it.

[TheMac04]

It occurs to me that with the IFCC involved, Redcloak is spoiled for choice as far as arcane casters are concerned. Without Xykon he loses Tsukiko, but there's still Nale, Sabine and possessed!V. If we assume the IFCC want the ritual to go forward (which they don't at present because they don't know about it, but it's going to cause chaos for the gods, so if they ever happen to eavesdrop on Team Evil they're likely to endorse it), that's three potential casting partners they can supply who are likely to be in the vicinity of a gate.

It would also give the Linear Guild something semi-important to do if they survive to the final confrontation, and parallel their appearance in Dorukan's Dungeon at the beginning of the story. So there's a sort of narrative symmetry to it.
This seems likely, seeing how every other possibility you mentioned is almost certainly not powerful enough to perform the ritual.

[Gray Mage]

My memory's fuzzy, were the gates part of their overall goal?

Panel 2:"...our plan for the gates..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)

[Rin_Hunter]

It occurs to me that with the IFCC involved, Redcloak is spoiled for choice as far as arcane casters are concerned. Without Xykon he loses Tsukiko, but there's still Nale, Sabine and possessed!V. If we assume the IFCC want the ritual to go forward (which they don't at present because they don't know about it, but it's going to cause chaos for the gods, so if they ever happen to eavesdrop on Team Evil they're likely to endorse it), that's three potential casting partners they can supply who are likely to be in the vicinity of a gate.

It would also give the Linear Guild something semi-important to do if they survive to the final confrontation, and parallel their appearance in Dorukan's Dungeon at the beginning of the story. So there's a sort of narrative symmetry to it.

The ritual requires an Epic level caster of both Arcane and Divine, which I'm pretty sure Nale or Sabine aren't and possessed V will be just as strong as normal V unless they force him to splice again.

The choices so far are Xykon... And Xykon.

Tsukiko is a Mystic Theurge, so she will most likely need to reach at least level 25 before she can take part. Nale has three classes, so we're looking at about level 40+ for him to take part, assuming he levels evenly except for Sorcerer. Sabine has spell-like abilities, but I'm pretty sure she has no actual casting (most likely any non-monster levels are in Rogue to parallel Haley).

[Kish]

The ritual requires an Epic level caster of both Arcane and Divine,

No. If Redcloak wanted to create a Gate of his own, he would need: To be epic level (he isn't), an epic-level arcane caster, and a ritual different than the one he knows.

The ritual he knows, to give the Dark One control of a Gate, requires two mid-level-or-better spellcasters, one arcane, one divine. Redcloak is able to serve as the divine caster without being epic. Redcloak was prepared to serve as the divine caster before he could cast sixth level spells.

Edit: However, just to point out, Sabine is no spellcaster at all.

[Gray Mage]

The ritual requires an Epic level caster of both Arcane and Divine, which I'm pretty sure Nale or Sabine aren't and possessed V will be just as strong as normal V unless they force him to splice again.

The choices so far are Xykon... And Xykon.

Tsukiko is a Mystic Theurge, so she will most likely need to reach at least level 25 before she can take part. Nale has three classes, so we're looking at about level 40+ for him to take part, assuming he levels evenly except for Sorcerer. Sabine has spell-like abilities, but I'm pretty sure she has no actual casting (most likely any non-monster levels are in Rogue to parallel Haley).

No, the epic level was needed to built the gates. It isn't known if there's an minimum level for the ritual, but it wouldn't be epic, as RC wasn't epic during SoD or even now.

Edit: Swordsage'd, again.

[Rin_Hunter]

No. If Redcloak wanted to create a Gate of his own, he would need: To be epic level (he isn't), an epic-level arcane caster, and a ritual different than the one he knows.

The ritual he knows, to give the Dark One control of a Gate, requires two mid-level-or-better spellcasters, one arcane or divine. Redcloak is able to serve as the divine caster without being epic. Redcloak was prepared to serve as the divine caster before he could cast sixth level spells.

Ah, alright. I think I must have assumed that since the Gates require Epic to create then they needed Epic for this.

Page 45 of Start of Darkness does just say "powerful" not "Epic", I suppose.

[Jjeinn-tae]

The Dark One's Cloak that Readcloak wears might give him a bonus to caster level for this ritual, and elsewhere probably. I would think with how the Dark One's plan has been going, he would have thought it through enough to give his top follower at the time an easier time performing the ritual.

[TheMac04]

Panel 2:"...our plan for the gates..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)
So yes then, they'll almost certainly be important later.

[Kish]

If Redcloak could create a Gate of his own, he would presumably be working on the rift at Azure City, or even in Lirian's forest, rather than planning to assault Girard's Gate.

[Rin_Hunter]

If Redcloak could create a Gate of his own, he would presumably be working on the rift at Azure City, or even in Lirian's forest, rather than planning to assault Girard's Gate.

That is a very good point, even though I didn't say he was going to build his own :smalltongue:

[Kish]

No, I didn't think you did. Just...what he'd do, if he fulfilled all the prerequisites for creating his own Gate. He doesn't because he's not epic, and also, I wonder if the Dark One could provide the ritual Dorukan and Lirian used to create the Gates to begin with.

[Rin_Hunter]

No, I didn't think you did. Just...what he'd do, if he fulfilled all the prerequisites for creating his own Gate. He doesn't because he's not epic, and also, I wonder if the Dark One could provide the ritual Dorukan and Lirian used to create the Gates to begin with.

I think that it's entirely possible because:
He did find a rift first and the earliest barers of the Crimson Mantle did fight (and lose to) the Order of the Scribble. He must have watched them make the Gates.

[Gray Mage]

So yes then, they'll almost certainly be important later.

Yes, but I think that they will only be important in this gate. They can only use V once, as afterwards the order will notice and come up with some counter measure.

[Rin_Hunter]

Yes, but I think that they will only be important in this gate. They can only use V once, as afterwards the order will notice and come up with some counter measure.

Actually, I'm pretty sure they can use V three times. Once for each of them. They never said that they would get all his time in one go.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Doesn't V own an equal amount of time to each of them? Like that, what was it 12 minutes about? Isn't V's soul owed to each of them individually for 12 minutes? Or am I remembering nonsense?

[Rin_Hunter]

Doesn't V own an equal amount of time to each of them? Like that, what was it 12 minutes about? Isn't V's soul owed to each of them individually for 12 minutes? Or am I remembering nonsense?

They each have an allotted time as noted at the end of #667. That is why I think they can control V three individual times.

[Kish]

Vaarsuvius owes each of them an amount of time equal to the time he was spliced with that fiend's contributed soul. So he owes Nero considerably less than the other two. But, as Gray Mage points out, the fiends lose the element of surprise the first time they...activate...Vaarsuvius.

[Rin_Hunter]

Vaarsuvius owes each of them an amount of time equal to the time he was spliced with that fiend's contributed soul. So he owes Nero considerably less than the other two. But, as Gray Mage points out, the fiends lose the element of surprise the first time they...activate...Vaarsuvius.

Doesn't mean they won't try it. They may not even do the first time in front of the Order. And V still keeps secrets, like what is beyond the Rift.

[Jjeinn-tae]

They each have an allotted time as noted at the end of #667. That is why I think they can control V three individual times.


Vaarsuvius owes each of them an amount of time equal to the time he was spliced with that fiend's contributed soul. So he owes Nero considerably less than the other two. But, as Gray Mage points out, the fiends lose the element of surprise the first time they...activate...Vaarsuvius.

Hmm, right, Durkon could probably use a protection vs. evil sort of thing after the first time. They will definitely make the first one count though, right as V needs to do something battle-deciding probably.

[TheMac04]

Hmm, right, Durkon could probably use a protection vs. evil sort of thing after the first time. They will definitely make the first one count though, right as V needs to do something battle-deciding probably.
The problem here is that you are all making the assumption that the Order is powerful enough to have counter-measures against the fiends. The fiends could easily deal with a protection from evil spell, I'm sure.

Not to mention that V thinks it will happen after he dies, and even if he did know in advance that it would happen while he was alive, the rest of the Order doesn't know about the possession (I think....), and V's too proud to tell them.

[Rin_Hunter]

The problem here is that you are all making the assumption that the Order is powerful enough to have counter-measures against the fiends. The fiends could easily deal with a protection from evil spell, I'm sure.

Not to mention that V thinks it will happen after he dies, and even if he did know in advance that it would happen while he was alive, the rest of the Order doesn't know about the possession (I think....), and V's too proud to tell them.

Actually, a Protection spell prevents mind-control and possession, so it probably would work. They can't go directly to the material plane to dispel it if it's cast, so it could pose a problem for them.

[TheMac04]

Actually, a Protection spell prevents mind-control and possession, so it probably would work. They can't go directly to the material plane to dispel it if it's cast, so it could pose a problem for them.
DnD rules-wise, yes, but do we know exactly how powerful the fiends are? Not to mention the V signed a contract, essentially, so **** is going to start getting serious if he defies it.

[Rin_Hunter]

DnD rules-wise, yes, but do we know exactly how powerful the fiends are? Not to mention the V signed a contract, essentially, so **** is going to start getting serious if he defies it.

I love how you seem to assume that D&D rules won't work because of plot.

Even Elan crashing through a window had rules behind it, so I'm pretty sure that they will have to use the Linear Guild or some other method to dispel any goings on if a Protection spell is on V.

And his contract was essentially: "You get three soul splices, one from each of us, and we get your soul for however long you hold each splice."

Nothing says V can't delay the control with a Protection spell or some other effect.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Hmm, I suppose really that could go either way, I hadn't thought of the contract... Protection from evil doesn't necessarily cancel an evil effect already on someone, right? There's a CL check there I think, maybe as a part of the contract, to make sure its enforced, there's a super-epic-level-magic on V that allows them to control, regardless of anything someone might try to do to prevent it.

Though, the fiends themselves are not "Deific" in this setting, so there's some counter somewhere, maybe Girard would be able to help there...

[Rin_Hunter]

Hmm, I suppose really that could go either way, I hadn't thought of the contract... Protection from evil doesn't necessarily cancel an evil effect already on someone, right? There's a CL check there I think, maybe as a part of the contract, to make sure its enforced, there's a super-epic-level-magic on V that allows them to control, regardless of anything someone might try to do to prevent it.

Though, the fiends themselves are not "Deific" in this setting, so there's some counter somewhere, maybe Girard would be able to help there...

I'd say that the contract counts as an ongoing effect, so it wouldn't be valid while the Protection from Evil spell is active, but becomes valid again as soon as the spell ends.

[TheMac04]

I love how you seem to assume that D&D rules won't work because of plot.

Even Elan crashing through a window had rules behind it, so I'm pretty sure that they will have to use the Linear Guild or some other method to dispel any goings on if a Protection spell is on V.

And his contract was essentially: "You get three soul splices, one from each of us, and we get your soul for however long you hold each splice."

Nothing says V can't delay the control with a Protection spell or some other effect.
Most of your points are more or less sound, so I won't bother arguing them.

However, you're arguing against a part that I didn't really mean to be my main argument. Mine was that V simply WON'T KNOW to have protection.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Most of your points are more or less sound, so I won't bother arguing them.

However, you're arguing against a part that I didn't really mean to be my main argument. Mine was that V simply WON'T KNOW to have protection.

The protection part only comes in for the (assumed) second/third "controls" of V. I don't think anyone's arguing that they'll be prepared the first time. Provided V's around everyone else during the first time, they'll probably enforce something to try and ward it off from that point on.

[Gray Mage]

There are easy ways to prevent the fiends from usings V. Protection from evil was already mentioned, if V reaches 15th level he can get a mind blank spell, 24h of protection :smallsmile:, if they're desperate they could just not take V with them for the next gate. Or if they're really desperate, they could call Jones and Rodriguez for a contract revision.:smallwink:

[Rin_Hunter]

The protection part only comes in for the (assumed) second/third "controls" of V. I don't think anyone's arguing that they'll be prepared the first time. Provided V's around everyone else during the first time, they'll probably enforce something to try and ward it off from that point on.

I was about to put this then, I got an email notice while I was typing, so I pressed back and refreshed. I avoided that ninja~

Gray Mage: I like all those suggestions and personally hope that the IFCC are defeated by Jones and Rodriguez now. I love those lawyers.

[TheMac04]

There are easy ways to prevent the fiends from usings V. Protection from evil was already mentioned, if V reaches 15th level he can get a mind blank spell, 24h of protection :smallsmile:, if they're desperate they could just not take V with them for the next gate. Or if they're really desperate, they could call Jones and Rodriguez for a contract revision.:smallwink:
Yeah see, again we encounter the problem of V breaking the contract. What would be the consequences? Probably not good for V.

[Rin_Hunter]

Yeah see, again we encounter the problem of V breaking the contract. What would be the consequences? Probably not good for V.

He never breaks the contract because his end of the bargain was to be soul spliced and let them use his soul later. There is no when and it's entirely reasonable for V to delay his soul being used until after he dies.

[BridgeCity]

The problem here is that you are all making the assumption that the Order is powerful enough to have counter-measures against the fiends. . .

I feel the real problem here is that you all seem to think it will be obvious to the order when V is taken over. No one worked out what had happened when V first went dark side, so there is no garuntee that her looking like that again will do anything.

Also, the IFCC are clearly not idiots - they will know that if they are blatant about their usage the order would catch on. I can't imagine they would just blow their secret weapon's usefulness in an easy-to-forsee mistake. As for V telling the others what happened after the first time they take her over, there may easily be a magical clause in the contract that makes her unable to do so, for a variety of reasons.

And even if IFCC-possesed-V was just standing in front of everyone stupidly blasting away with counter-productive spells, I doubt anyone in the order would have high enough spellcraft to know what was going on. It would just look like a wizard fighting, as per usual, and then bad stuff happens - I don't see the instant jump to "it must have been V's magic, that we have trusted this entire time, but now it must have been different, just because . . . " (this goes back to the order not catching on to evil V in the first place, and accepting teleport spells etc.)

I just feel that I would lose confidence in any DM who would have a group of bad guys set this up and then blow it in such an obvious mistake.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Hmm, that's probably the best point in the thread BridgeCity. The IFCC are eons old, playing some sort of Xanatos Gambit against everyone we know they have contact with, including The Evil Afterlives themselves... They probably would try to make it less visible, but then that leaves a bit of their advantage...

Though, if V got really stressed again, like when she was trying to contact Haley and Belkar in Azure City, the Order might not be to surprised with another "snap."

[Gray Mage]

Also, the IFCC are clearly not idiots - they will know that if they are blatant about their usage the order would catch on. I can't imagine they would just blow their secret weapon's usefulness in an easy-to-forsee mistake. As for V telling the others what happened after the first time they take her over, there may easily be a magical clause in the contract that makes her unable to do so, for a variety of reasons.


V doesn't need to tell the rest of the order, Mind Blank is a wizard spell, lasts a day and is already available to her.

[TheMac04]

Also, the IFCC are clearly not idiots - they will know that if they are blatant about their usage the order would catch on. I can't imagine they would just blow their secret weapon's usefulness in an easy-to-forsee mistake. As for V telling the others what happened after the first time they take her over, there may easily be a magical clause in the contract that makes her unable to do so, for a variety of reasons.

I'm still thinking that V might be too proud to ever tell them at all, unless he's had enough character development by then.

[Gray Mage]

I'm still thinking that V might be too proud to ever tell them at all, unless he's had enough character development by then.

Not to be disrespectfull and all but did you see my last post? V doesn't need to tell anyone. Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm)

[TheMac04]

Not to be disrespectfull and all but did you see my last post? V doesn't need to tell anyone. Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm)
Yeah, I know. Ninja'd.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Not to be disrespectfull and all but did you see my last post? V doesn't need to tell anyone. Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm)

Are we sure this will be mind control? When they collect debt, will V's soul still reside in her body? If that's the case, one of them could directly control her, which wouldn't be Mind-Affecting (I think). Then, if she does stay in her body, its ownership of her soul, I'm not sure if that needs to go through the mind either, it might go straight into body control, though DnD probably would classify it as Mind-Affecting, instead of some kinetic control.

[Rin_Hunter]

Are we sure this will be mind control? When they collect debt, will V's soul still reside in her body? If that's the case, one of them could directly control her, which wouldn't be Mind-Affecting (I think). Then, if she does stay in her body, its ownership of her soul, I'm not sure if that needs to go through the mind either, it might go straight into body control, though DnD probably would classify it as Mind-Affecting, instead of some kinetic control.

The Protection spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionfromevil.htm) says: "Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)."

It includes those effects, but states what it blocks, and I'm sure that falls under this.

[BridgeCity]

Hmm, that's probably the best point in the thread BridgeCity. The IFCC are eons old, playing some sort of Xanatos Gambit against everyone we know they have contact with, including The Evil Afterlives themselves... They probably would try to make it less visible, but then that leaves a bit of their advantage...

Though, if V got really stressed again, like when she was trying to contact Haley and Belkar in Azure City, the Order might not be to surprised with another "snap."

However, that assumes that they need to be obvious for their plan to work, which just doesn't make sense to me. We have no idea what they plan to do, or what needs to happen for them to do it. For all we know they just need V to stand next to the gate and cast a single unobtrusive spell, possibly even less . . . we really shouldn't assume that the IFCC working secretly would lessen their advantage. Any decent schemer, I feel, would be trying to for secrecy in the first place.


Originally Posted By Gray Mage
V doesn't need to tell the rest of the order, Mind Blank is a wizard spell, lasts a day and is already available to her.

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying V could use mind blank to protect herself? Or that the IFCC would somehow use mind blank to stop her from telling the other members of the party.

If it's the first option, once again we don't know what was in the contract, so its entrely possible that it could magically stop V from doing something like this, (a common precaution in magical contracts). Also, since it is such a common spell and so easy to cast, it would be a long long stretch to say the IFCC hadn't thought of it (or similar methods) with their superior-than-ours intelligence and experience, and compensated for it.

If it's the second, then I agree that the IFCC should be using something like this to stop V letting the others know, (but from what I understand of Mind Blank this can't really be what you meant.)

If it's a third meaning I'm not getting, just let me know.

[Jjeinn-tae]

The Protection spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionfromevil.htm) says: "Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)."

It includes those effects, but states what it blocks, and I'm sure that falls under this.

That was more meaning, V might not be able to protect her self through Mind Blank, depending on how this debt works, she might need the Order's help to ward it off, which assuming the IFCC manages to do it without the Order's knowing, V quite likely will not seek it, this might give them a second use for free.

[TheMac04]

I think what he's trying to say is that V could use it to stop the Order from remembering what happened while he was possessed and/or about the deal he made. Although if I'm wrong, apologies to Gray Mage.

[Rin_Hunter]

That was more meaning, V might not be able to protect her self through Mind Blank, depending on how this debt works, she might need the Order's help to ward it off, which assuming the IFCC manages to do it without the Order's knowing, V quite likely will not seek it, this might give them a second use for free.

We have no reason to believe that V can't protect himself or tell others about the contract.

It was a verbal contract that was signed by touching an orb. There appears to be no fine details other than when the IFCC will control him.

[BridgeCity]

That was more meaning, V might not be able to protect her self through Mind Blank, depending on how this debt works, she might need the Order's help to ward it off, which assuming the IFCC manages to do it without the Order's knowing, V quite likely will not seek it, this might give them a second use for free.

Again, I think this assumes the IFCC are stupid. They know V is with the order, they know that they will most likely be around when they take her over, so why would they not have planned for these eventualities? What makes us assume the order will be able to do anything even if V somehow can alert them to the danger? (which I think would be poor foresight on the IFCC). If they are planning on using V at all three gates, then they must have planned for the order to continue to work with V after the first hijack, so they should have things in place to deal with all of these possibilities.

Also, in a world where high level casters can create their own spells (such as cloister) I really think it wouldnt be too hard for the IFCC, with all their resources that I assume come with being powerful creatures of the pit, to break through standard wizard defence spells.

[BridgeCity]

We have no reason to believe that V can't protect himself or tell others about the contract.

It was a verbal contract that was signed by touching an orb. There appears to be no fine details other than when the IFCC will control him.

We also have no reason to believe that evil devil/demon creatures wouldnt cheat someone so they could get the best out of their deal. I mean seriously, why wouldn't they ensure that V couldn't disclose their plans? It would be stupid.

Generally (in stories) people don't see the fine print untill after they sign the contract. Thats why there appears to be nothing more too the contract, you don't bring peoples attention to all the tricks in your plan.

[Gray Mage]

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying V could use mind blank to protect herself? Or that the IFCC would somehow use mind blank to stop her from telling the other members of the party.

If it's the first option, once again we don't know what was in the contract, so its entrely possible that it could magically stop V from doing something like this, (a common precaution in magical contracts). Also, since it is such a common spell and so easy to cast, it would be a long long stretch to say the IFCC hadn't thought of it (or similar methods) with their superior-than-ours intelligence and experience, and compensated for it.


Sorry if I wasn't clear, the first option is what I meant. And as for magically stopping V, there isn't a fine print, the contract was purelly verbal so I don't think that such a clause exists and if they try to I believe that it would be grounds for a breach of contract, which means that Jones and Rodriguez can save the day.:smalltongue:

Edit: Swordsage'd by Rin

[Larkspur]

I stand corrected on Sabine. Nale and V still qualify, though- as Kish pointed out, epicness is clearly not a requirement. And it's not like Redcloak cares who his partner is.

[TheMac04]

I stand corrected on Sabine. Nale and V still qualify, though- as Kish pointed out, epicness is clearly not a requirement. And it's not like Redcloak cares who his partner is.
Just because epicness isn't required doesn't mean it's not a reasonably high-level spell. Not to mention that neither V nor Nale would be willing to participate, so it would have to require some form of mind-control.

[BridgeCity]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, the first option is what I meant . . .

No problem, I though it was what you were meaning but I didnt want to assume and get it wrong :smallsmile:


And as for magically stopping V, there isn't a fine print, the contract was purelly verbal so I don't think that such a clause exists . . .

Actually it wasn't purely verbal. What seems to be an application form is sent to V in a letter/package, and when she agress to it she touches an orb to mark the agreement. It would be easy to have the touching of this orb be how the application is filled out and signed (magic magic magic) and since V never once opens the application form all she has to go on is what the evil fiends tell her.

She could have been signing anything and not known it.

[Gray Mage]

Actually it wasn't purely verbal. What seems to be an application form is sent to V in a letter/package, and when she agress to it she touches an orb to mark the agreement. It would be easy to have the touching of this orb be how the application is filled out and signed (magic magic magic) and since V never once opens the application form all she has to go on is what the evil fiends tell her.

She could have been signing anything and not known it.

I believe that this could also be grounds for an annulment of contract, but law isn't my area of expertise, if someone that knows this could tell it'd be great.

[Rin_Hunter]

I believe that this could also be grounds for an annulment of contract, but law isn't my area of expertise, if someone that knows this could tell it'd be great.

This is where the lawyers come in :smallbiggrin:

[Jjeinn-tae]

I believe that this could also be grounds for an annulment of contract, but law isn't my area of expertise, if someone that knows this could tell it'd be great.

That would really depend on the laws of the land more than modern society. I doubt Fiendish Bureaucracy cares whether you read what you sign.

[BridgeCity]

I believe that this could also be grounds for an annulment of contract, but law isn't my area of expertise, if someone that knows this could tell it'd be great.

Possibly, but that relies on two things.

1 - V can prove she didn't read the contract.
2 - Finding a court that would actually try this. I mean you can't go to a French court to contest a Chinese contract, for example, so it is likely the only court with the power to disolve a fiendish contract would be a fiendish court. I dont give V much hope in that situation.

EDIT: swordsaged (somewhat)

[Rin_Hunter]

Possibly, but that relies on two things.

1 - V can prove she didn't read the contract.
2 - Finding a court that would actually try this. I mean you can't go to a French court to contest a Chinese contract, for example, so it is likely the only court with the power to disolve a fiendish contract would be a fiendish court. I dont give V much hope in that situation.

They were in Southern Continent territory, though. Just to put a new spin on that.

They signed the contract in their land, so it may be possible to use it in one of their courts.

[Gray Mage]

That would really depend on the laws of the land more than modern society. I doubt Fiendish Bureaucracy cares whether you read what you sign.

Yes, but I just noticed something now. In 631 the envelope says no fine print, I believe that it would be considered fine print if when V touches the orb he signs his name. Besides, V didn't actually sign his name in any contract, right?

And fiends do have courts, at least devils do and it can be found that the contract was phony/not legal/didn't give what was promised and thus annuled.

[BridgeCity]

. . . Besides, just V didn't actually sign his name in any contract, right?

Thats what I'm saying touching the orb would do, automatically be V signing the contract. This is a magical contract between magical beings in a magical world, you don't have to use a pen.

Didn't notice the no fine print but again i say that is putting trust in evil fiends :smallsmile:

[TheMac04]

That would really depend on the laws of the land more than modern society. I doubt Fiendish Bureaucracy cares whether you read what you sign.
The land, of course, being an island in the middle of nowhere.

[BridgeCity]

They were in Southern Continent territory, though. Just to put a new spin on that.

They signed the contract in their land, so it may be possible to use it in one of their courts.

It doesn't matter where a contract is signed (if I'm not mistaken) so their location wouldn't affect the legal side of things.


And fiends do have courts, at least devils do and it can be found that the contract was phony/not legal/didn't give what was promised and thus annuled.

I know it technically can be done, but the IFCC are clearly powerful in the pit, and being evil fiends are pretty much garunteed to be at least a little corrupt. Do you seriously think they couldn't get a fiendish court to go their way?

[Gray Mage]

Thats what I'm saying touching the orb would do, automatically be V signing the contract. This is a magical contract between magical beings in a magical world, you don't have to use a pen.

Didn't notice the no fine print but again i say that is putting trust in evil fiends :smallsmile:

I think it's debatable, besides it's the lawer job to cheat twist the rules to better fit them, so I think I'd be possible. Not 100% sure, but possible.

[BridgeCity]

I think it's debatable, besides it's the lawer job to cheat twist the rules to better fit them, so I think I'd be possible. Not 100% sure, but possible.

No matter how good the laywer is, if the system and court are corrupt, they don't stand a chance. (Against a fiendish court at least, John Grisham is not writing oots, thankfully.)

[Gray Mage]

No matter how good the laywer is, if the system and court are corrupt, they don't stand a chance.

Why do you think the sistem would be against the order? What the IFCC is doing( aka plotting with Demons, remember the blood war?) is new, so I bet a lot of Devils are against them. Besides, if they're powerfull, this doesn't mean that they don't have even more powerfull enemies that want the IFCC to fail.

[TheMac04]

It doesn't matter where a contract is signed (if I'm not mistaken) so their location wouldn't affect the legal side of things.



I know it technically can be done, but the IFCC are clearly powerful in the pit, and being evil fiends are pretty much garunteed to be at least a little corrupt. Do you seriously think they couldn't get a fiendish court to go their way?
Do we know that this still applies? Not an argument, just a question.

[BridgeCity]

Why do you think the sistem would be against the order? What the IFCC is doing( aka plotting with Demons, remember the blood war?) is new, so I bet a lot of Devils are against them. Besides, if they're powerfull, this doesn't mean that they don't have even more powerfull enemies that want the IFCC to fail.

Mainly because of good story telling. If we went through this whole issue with V and deciding to make the contract, only to have an even more powerful fiend turn up to nulify the pact when it matters, it would be way too anti-climactic. I hinge my predictions on the basis that I feel Rich is a better writer than that.

Also, correct me i'f im mistaken, but the blood war hasn't been mentioned in the oots universe has it? I don't think it has, and I can't remember any specific instance that states that demons and devils actively oppose each other in this world either. So devils working with demons would not annoy other devils. (If it has been stated just let me know.)


Do we know that this still applies? Not an argument, just a question.

I think that we don't know that it does or it doesn't, so we can pretty much speculate either way.

[Rin_Hunter]

Mainly because of good story telling. If we went through this whole issue with V and deciding to make the contract, only to have an even more powerful fiend turn up to nulify the pact when it matters, it would be way too anti-climactic. I hinge my predictions on the basis that I feel Rich is a better writer than that.

Also, correct me i'f im mistaken, but the blood war hasn't been mentioned in the oots universe has it? I don't think it has, and I can't remember any specific instance that states that demons and devils actively oppose each other in this world either. So devils working with demons would not annoy other devils. (If it has been stated just let me know.)

#632, panel 6.

I assumed that the IFCC has a side-goal of ending the Blood War in favour of killing/ruling over mortals.

[BridgeCity]

#632, panel 6.

I assumed that the IFCC has a side-goal of ending the Blood War in favour of killing/ruling over mortals.

Thanks, clearly the opposition of demons and devils does exist in oots. I still feel that a devil disolving the contract just to get at another devil would be a let down.

[Gray Mage]

Mainly because of good story telling. If we went through this whole issue with V and deciding to make the contract, only to have an even more powerful fiend turn up to nulify the pact when it matters, it would be way too anti-climactic. I hinge my predictions on the basis that I feel Rich is a better writer than that.

Also, correct me i'f im mistaken, but the blood war hasn't been mentioned in the oots universe has it? I don't think it has, and I can't remember any specific instance that states that demons and devils actively oppose each other in this world either. So devils working with demons would not annoy other devils. (If it has been stated just let me know.)

I'm not saying that they wouldn't use V. I'm saying that after they used V the first time and the order couldn't protect V from the IFCC's control because of the contract and then tryed to annul it, then the court wouldn't necessarily pick the IFCC's side. And the fiends themselves comented about the blood war. "Blood war who's it good for?" I'll try to find the page.

Edit:Swordsage'd

In short, I'm just saying that fiendish court = insta win for the IFCC isn't acurate.

[BridgeCity]

I'm not saying that they wouldn't use V. I'm saying that after they used V the first time and the order couldn't protect V from the IFCC's control because of the contract and then tryed to annul it, then the court wouldn't necessarily pick the IFCC's side. And the fiends themselves comented about the blood war. "Blood war who's it good for?" I'll try to find the page.

Yeah I was wrong about the blood war, but one of my early points was it would be remarkably short sighted of the IFCC to not somehow ensure that V could not tell the oots what had happened after they take control of her the first time. With all their power, it wouldnt be hard to arrange matters that way. So the oots wouldn't know of any contract and wouldnt have the slim chance of a fiendish court siding with them. And as I said before, none of the oots really picked up on V being darkside before, so without her being able to tell them, they wouldn't know to do anything.

Another possibility is that V herself will not know when she has been possessed. It is common in fantasy to play around with if people remember or how much they remember after possesion, so she may not even realise it happens. As I said earlier, I believe the IFCC's plans for her will be subtle (because obvious would be too stupid) and so there would be no clues.

[Gray Mage]

Yeah I was wrong about the blood war, but one of my early points was it would be remarkably short sighted of the IFCC to not somehow ensure that V could not tell the oots what had happened after they take control of her the first time. With all their power, it wouldnt be hard to arrange matters that way. So the oots wouldn't know of any contract and wouldnt have the slim chance of a fiendish court siding with them. And as I said before, none of the oots really picked up on V being darkside before, so without her being able to tell them, they wouldn't know to do anything.

Another possibility is that V herself will not know when she has been possessed. It is common in fantasy to play around with if people remember or how much they remember after possesion, so she may not even realise it happens. As I said earlier, I believe the IFCC's plans for her will be subtle (because obvious would be too stupid) and so there would be no clues.

It's true that they might have some sort of prevention, I'll give you that. But you also have to admit that it's an assumption and we don't have any lead that they do have a written contract, with would be poor storytelling IMO, but I disgress.

[TheMac04]

There might be opposition, but something is almost certainly going to happen regarding this. I agree that Rich is a better writer than to not do anything with this plot line.

[BridgeCity]

It's true that they might have some sort of prevention, I'll give you that. But you also have to admit that it's an assumption and we don't have any lead that they do have a written contract, with would be poor storytelling IMO, but I disgress.

Oh I totally admit it's my assumption. Not only that, it is wild speculation. It's how I want the IFCC to be, because anything else would be, in my mind, disappointing for the behind-the-scenes scheme-team of the story. Those are the guys in stories who are typically known for having all their bases covered, so I would feel let down if it was a mistake that is very easy to see that lead to their downfall.


There might be opposition, but something is almost certainly going to happen regarding this. I agree that Rich is a better writer than to not do anything with this plot line.

I'm really keen for Rich to start writing more about them because I'm sure he has a great twist in store.

[TheMac04]

Oh I totally admit it's my assumption. Not only that, it is wild speculation. It's how I want the IFCC to be, because anything else would be, in my mind, disapointing for the behind-the-scenes scheme-team of the story. Those are the guys in stories who are typically known for having all their bases covered, so I would feel let down if it was a mistake that is very easy to see that lead to their downfall.
And then the rest of the thread turned into everyone agreeing with each other and pretend that we're still having a discussion.

[BridgeCity]

And then the rest of the thread turned into everyone agreeing with each other and pretend that we're still having a discussion.

Agreed . . . wait . . .

[Rin_Hunter]

And then the rest of the thread turned into everyone agreeing with each other and pretend that we're still having a discussion.

Exactly. So, completely off-topic: Who do you think the final villain will be in this story? :smallbiggrin:

[TheMac04]

Exactly. So, completely off-topic: Who do you think the final villain will be in this story? :smallbiggrin:
The resurrected spirit of the goblin that Roy slices in half in the first panel of the first strip.

[BridgeCity]

Exactly. So, completely off-topic: Who do you think the final villain will be in this story? :smallbiggrin:

I'm still hoping for an all on all battle between the three main factions: Xykon, the Order and Redcloak.

[Rin_Hunter]

The resurrected spirit of the goblin that Roy slices in half in the first panel of the first strip.

Don't be silly, we all know that's Jirix in green facepaint, raised just before Xykon and Redcloak got to the hobgoblins.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Ok, I have some wild speculations here. It's so telegraphed that something is going to happen with the IFCC, that practically the entire readership expects it. I put forward that the unpredictable will happen, the IFCC will play no major part in the main plot whatsoever, they won't take their debt until after the gates are resolved, after all, they have said that in several different ways that V's purpose was served, and that they don't care about her soul at all.

V's soul will be used to enforce martial rule in the underworlds, guaranteeing the end of the blood war so that all the fiends may work together for the enslavement of mortalkind.

[TheMac04]

Ok, I have some wild speculations here. It's so telegraphed that something is going to happen with the IFCC, that practically the entire readership expects it. I put forward that the unpredictable will happen, the IFCC will play no major part in the main plot whatsoever, they won't take their debt until after the gates are resolved, after all, they have said that in several different ways that V's purpose was served, and that they don't care about her soul at all.

V's soul will be used to enforce martial rule in the underworlds, guaranteeing the end of the blood war so that all the fiends may work together for the enslavement of mortalkind.
I smell a sequel!

[BridgeCity]

Ok, I have some wild speculations here. It's so telegraphed that something is going to happen with the IFCC, that practically the entire readership expects it. I put forward that the unpredictable will happen, the IFCC will play no major part in the main plot whatsoever, they won't take their debt until after the gates are resolved, after all, they have said that in several different ways that V's purpose was served, and that they don't care about her soul at all.

V's soul will be used to enforce martial rule in the underworlds, guaranteeing the end of the blood war so that all the fiends may work together for the enslavement of mortalkind.

Interesting, but not a theory I can bring myself to subscribe to, I just need the IFCC to Xanatos the hell out of everyone :smallsmile:

[TheMac04]

Interesting, but not a theory I can bring myself to subscribe to, I just need the IFCC to Xanatos the hell out of everyone :smallsmile:
It would actually be incredibly satisfying to see Xykon about to confront the Order, start readying his magic, and then have the fiends pop in and off him in one shot. It would be anti-climactic, but incredibly cool.

Xykon: METEOR S-(BANG!)

[Gray Mage]

Back on topic then. I still think that the best bet to go for final villain is Xykon, he's easily the strongest and all the other options seem a little weak for me.


Redcloak: I think that Xykon will betray him very soon and he will either fight Xykon on his own, and die I think, or unite with the order to defeat him. Uniting is not a big streach as they would probably agree to some contition like letting the goblins have their own land. (Perhaps the island that the Azure City is in now.)

IFCC: They're big, but the best influence in the material plane is V. Will be the big villains in this part I think, but not in the final.

LG:....Next

EoB: Not really involved in all this for now (that we know of), so no.

@Bridge: If you'd like to continue our friendly discussion about what the IFCC have in storage for V, do make another thread, as I wouldn't mind to continue.

[TheMac04]

Back on topic then. I still think that the best bet to go for final villain is Xykon, he's easily the strongest and all the other options seem a little weak for me.


Redcloak: I think that Xykon will betray him very soon and he will either fight Xykon on his own, and die I think, or unite with the order to defeat him. Uniting is not a big streach as they would probably agree to some contition like letting the goblins have their own land. (Perhaps the island that the Azure City is in now.)

IFCC: They're big, but the best influence in the material plane is V. Will be the big villains in this part I think, but not in the final.

LG:....Next

EoB: Not really involved in all this for now (that we know of), so no.

@Bridge: If you'd like to continue our friendly discussion about what the IFCC have in storage for V, do make another thread, as I wouldn't mind to continue.
No faith in the Snarl being involved? Really?

[BridgeCity]

Back on topic then. I still think that the best bet to go for final villain is Xykon, he's easily the strongest and all the other options seem a little weak for me.

Agreed, he has to be the last boss, or at least in the final fight if what I said earlier happens.


Redcloak: I think that Xykon will betray him very soon and he will either fight Xykon on his own, and die I think, or unite with the order to defeat him. Uniting is not a big streach as they would probably agree to some contition like letting the goblins have their own land. (Perhaps the island that the Azure City is in now.)

I'm not so keen on RC and the order joining forces. I know it's possible and could be justified, but it would be a little too 'happy families' for me.


IFCC: They're big, but the best influence in the material plane is V. Will be the big villains in this part I think, but not in the final.

It is quite likely you a right. If that is the case I hope they at least go out with a bang


LG:....Next

I could not agree more.

As for the Snarl, I think it will be dealt with before the final showdown. Either by being assimilated by someone or already destroyed.



@Bridge: If you'd like to continue our friendly discussion about what the IFCC have in storage for V, do make another thread, as I wouldn't mind to continue.

Would be keen, but with the different time zones and all I've run out of time for now. Thanks for the discussion though, it was good.

[TheMac04]

I suggested assimilation between Xykon and the Snarl a bit earlier. This would also be extremely cool.

[Gray Mage]

No faith in the Snarl being involved? Really?

You know, I knew I was forgeting someone.:smallredface:

The snarl is would be my second option, actually if only because of comic #274, that just reeks of foreshadowing IMO, but he also has a lot of things against it, so I'm not so sure.

Edit: Yeah, I'm also going to go for now. Still if you're up to it tomorrow or any other day.:smallwink:

[BridgeCity]

I suggested assimilation between Xykon and the Snarl a bit earlier. This would also be extremely cool.

Oh was it you? Yeah I knew I read it somewhere, it would be an interesting idea. Anyway now I really have to go, have fun guys.

[TheMac04]

You know, I knew I was forgeting someone.:smallredface:

The snarl is would be my second option, actually if only because of comic #274, that just reeks of foreshadowing IMO, but he also has a lot of things against it, so I'm not so sure.

Edit: Yeah, I'm also going to go for now. Still if you're up to it tomorrow or any other day.:smallwink:
There was WAY too much set-up for it NOT to be extremely important to the plot. The amount of flashbacks strips describing its origin can't have been for nothing.

[JonestheSpy]

One last note about V. I really doubt that the Order could protect V after the first time the soul splice-imbursement clause is activated. Doesn't matter what spell they try, an archfiend-powered dispel magic will probably blow it away, as would an anti-magic field (AMF has nothing to do with souls, I figure).

However there IS an answer to the dilemma that the fiends probably wouldn't expect, but they gave to V themselves. V could kill him/herself, suffer the tortures of the lower planes for a couple of hours (objective hours, that is - subjectively it might be far longer), then be resurrected. This assumes the fiends will bother torturing V after death, since it's pretty obvious they were interested in using V while alive.

[TheMac04]

One last note about V. I really doubt that the Order could protect V after the first time the soul splice-imbursement clause is activated. Doesn't matter what spell they try, an archfiend-powered dispel magic will probably blow it away, as would an anti-magic field (AMF has nothing to do with souls, I figure).
This is what I was thinking earlier. Even if V probably won't admit it, the fiends are MUCH craftier than he is.


However there IS an answer to the dilemma that the fiends probably wouldn't expect, but they gave to V themselves. V could kill him/herself, suffer the tortures of the lower planes for a couple of hours (objective hours, that is - subjectively it might be far longer), then be resurrected. This assumes the fiends will bother torturing V after death, since it's pretty obvious they were interested in using V while alive.
I think the fiends are savvier than that. They would know that V is just going to be ressed. If they can spy on the Linear Guild (though that might have been something Sabine is letting them do, but Xykon can spy easily with his crystal ball), they can spy on the Order. They'll know the plan before it happens.

[JonestheSpy]

I think the fiends are savvier than that. They would know that V is just going to be ressed. If they can spy on the Linear Guild (though that might have been something Sabine is letting them do, but Xykon can spy easily with his crystal ball), they can spy on the Order. They'll know the plan before it happens.

But they might not be able to do anything about it. They can take control of V while alive, but assuming the Order aren't morons they can be prepared for that and have V restrained, which just means less time being tormented after death.

Admittedly, this makes certain assumptions about the spiritual bureaucracy on my part. Seems likely that whatever plane V would end up at, he'd be sent to deal with his debt to the fiends before being allowed in. The IFCC could bother torturing V or not, but the debt would be fulfilled in a short time.

[DragonOfUndeath]

It doesn't matter where a contract is signed (if I'm not mistaken) so their location wouldn't affect the legal side of things.

the fiends are LAWFUL evil. they have to follow the law no matter what (they can't change it to favor one party or the other) and the contract was made on the island that V 'colonized' by settling there for a semi-permanent period of time. s/he essentially made a country which the contract was made on. s/he could essentially make a law saying the renting or selling of souls is forbidden and thus render the contract null and void. the fiends can't do anything legally as the law breaks the deal not him/her.

[BridgeCity]

the fiends are LAWFUL evil. they have to follow the law no matter what (they can't change it to favor one party or the other) and the contract was made on the island that V 'colonized' by settling there for a semi-permanent period of time. s/he essentially made a country which the contract was made on. s/he could essentially make a law saying the renting or selling of souls is forbidden and thus render the contract null and void. the fiends can't do anything legally as the law breaks the deal not him/her.

V would not be a recognised world government, I really don't think the fiends would hold whatever laws she made up to be true laws. In the unlikely case they did for some reason, you can bet that eternally old devils who are all about trapping people in legal contracts would be far better at getting around the rules than V would.

Seriously, if what you say held power, then just anyone could go sit on an island, summon a devil and tell them that the law states they can never leave the island and that they have to do everything the person wants, and the devil would just grin and bear it . . . thats just silly, if we rally against PC's being lawful stupid, we shouldn't expect the bad guys to be it.

Being of lawful alignment does not mean you cannot go against laws. If the law maker of the empire of blood made a law that stated Durkon had to kill his party members, do you really think he would be unable to not do it? Alignment is a way to describe how a character behaves, not a way to dictate how a character behaves. There are rules for barbarians that if they ever lose their chaotic alignment they lose the ability to rage. That right there proves you can act outside of your alignment freely, and if you do it often enough your alignment description will change.

[Larkspur]

Not to mention that neither V nor Nale would be willing to participate, so it would have to require some form of mind-control.

You mean like demons with a contract on V's soul, sort of thing? :smallbiggrin:

It could be presented to Nale in the same way as Xykon, especially since if I were the IFCC, I'd pass the information through Sabine so it seemed genuine. Nale would jump at a chance to control a Gate provided you could make him think it was his own idea.

All of this depends of the IFCC a) finding out and b) wanting it to happen, but b) is consistent with their stated goals and as far as a) is concerned I think we can assume they can penetrate Cloister, and under any circumstances dire enough that Redcloak needed to replace Xykon there would probably be some discussion of the Plan for them to eavesdrop on.

[TheMac04]

the fiends are LAWFUL evil. they have to follow the law no matter what (they can't change it to favor one party or the other) and the contract was made on the island that V 'colonized' by settling there for a semi-permanent period of time. s/he essentially made a country which the contract was made on. s/he could essentially make a law saying the renting or selling of souls is forbidden and thus render the contract null and void. the fiends can't do anything legally as the law breaks the deal not him/her.
Only ONE of the fiends is Lawful Evil. That's kind of the point.

[Kish]

Only ONE of the fiends is Lawful Evil. That's kind of the point.
And even if all three were, if Vaarsuvius started claiming s/he declared the laws of the island the deal was made on forbade soul-trading, the logical response would be, "Oh haha no."

I don't know why people sometimes think "Lawful" means "incredibly gullible robot."

[Gray Mage]

There was WAY too much set-up for it NOT to be extremely important to the plot. The amount of flashbacks strips describing its origin can't have been for nothing.

Althought I agree that it'll likely be important later, the flashbacks already served a purpose: tell us what is was supposed to be behind the gates, a god killing abomination, thus giving us a little insight on Team Evil's plans.

[VampireRot]

I personally believe Belkar will be the final villain. What better way for Belkar to die than for Roy to kill him?
To those replying to this, don't make this into a Belkar doesn't die discussion.
How will it happen? I'm not sure, maybe the IFCC recruits him or he just decides to be a bad guy.

[Gift Jeraff]

Telephone game?

They probably got it from Rich stating in the beginning of the DStP that there will not be more books than already have been published, (so 1~4; 3 sounds just about right; also, I think he might even mention reaching the halfway point somewhere in there), though the upcoming books will probably be longer than the first 2, so it's a little bit under halfway.


All we know about their overall goal is that it involves causing chaos and contention among everyone else, and they value the Linear Guild for their status as total morons.

Oh, and if their plan succeeds, they expect to have enough power to slaughter hundreds of good dragons easily.
And it "technically" involves bringing down the gods of Good. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) My guess?
It's a scheme to bring down ALL of the gods. Using the Snarl in some fashion, obviously.

[Laeranu]

First, I want to clear this up a little (even though it was all the way back on pg. 4). I didn't mean that Redcloak wouldn't continue the Plan Shale, (I don't think the plan is evil really, its just killing a couple of gods to give goblinoids rights :smallconfused: ) what I meant was that Redcloak wouldn't be Evil like Xykon is Evil. He'd find an arcane caster, preferably goblin, and continue the plan in as harmless a way possible, maybe killing a couple paladins along the way, but hey. And he wouldn't to admit he was wrong (as long as Xykon was dead).

Secondly, Kish, the IFCC might be third-stringer villains, but thats the whole point. No one will expect it! Like I said before they oversee everything like demonic gods.it seems to me that they would make perfect villians after Xykon is defeated.

Lastly, can I just say how glad I am about how many people replied to my point.

I hope this clears my name a bit.

[Nimrod's Son]

I don't think the plan is evil really, its just killing a couple of gods to give goblinoids rights :smallconfused:
There's nothing in the plan about killing gods. But what makes it evil is the extremely high likelihood of something going terribly wrong and wiping out all creation, which The Dark One (and by extension, Redcloak) thinks is an acceptable risk.


the IFCC might be third-stringer villains, but thats the whole point. No one will expect it!
Well, no one would expect it if a Terry Gilliam-style foot came down from the sky and crushed Xykon to death, but that doesn't make it a good idea. :smalltongue:

[JonestheSpy]

There's nothing in the plan about killing gods. But what makes it evil is the extremely high likelihood of something going terribly wrong and wiping out all creation, which The Dark One (and by extension, Redcloak) thinks is an acceptable risk.


Where do get the "extremely high" impression?

[Kish]

Where do get the "extremely high" impression?
Probably from the three out of three yet-approached destroyed Gates.

[Larkspur]

Probably from the three out of three yet-approached destroyed Gates.

They only destroyed one of them, and frankly anything that can be destroyed by accident wasn't terribly secure to begin with. It's not their fault crazy or ignorant people keep blowing up gates, and there's no particular reason to think it will happen to the next two. They held Dorukan's Gate for six months without anything bad happening.

You could argue negligent disregard for the consequences, but you could slam Lirian with that too- who the hell endangers the world by attaching a critical seal to something easily flammable? By this reasoning Roy is more evil for trying to stop them than Team Evil are for trying to control a Gate- it's the heroes who keep blowing stuff up, and if he goes after them he knows that the resulting fight may destroy the next Gate.

[DragonOfUndeath]

self-destructing gates? Dorukan must have taken a Bard level to even THINK of adding that

[Kish]

It's not their fault crazy or ignorant people keep blowing up gates, and there's no particular reason to think it will happen to the next two.
And yet, I am practically certain it will happen to at least Girard's Gate. I would say that I grant Redcloak credit for pattern recognition as good as mine. You would, perhaps, prefer the phrasing that I project my own delusional perception of patterns where none exist on Redcloak; I shan't be offended. :smalltongue:

[Nilan8888]

Flawed Paradigm was actually right about a number of things way back further up the thread (mostly Tolkien's LOTR having bad characterization -- although Gollum and Wormtongue are worthy exceptions), but he was wrong overall, if I read him right, about characterization or lack thereof being a guiding premise on who the big bad should be at the end.

There are some characters whose purpose is to act as a cipher: to represent concepts and have no narrative arc whatsoever. Or if they have one, it is either brief or incredibly small compared to other characters. After all one of the best things you can do in a story is have characters to contrast against one another, and that includes a progression of character vs. the lack thereof.

Xykon not being an interesting character... which is somewhat correct... doesn't matter in him being the big bad of the story when RedCloak is right there to offer that counterbalance. What's more is that Tsukiko and MitD may also have thier own arcs (well MitD is no surprise there) and believe it or not, NALE might even get something before all is said and done.

TDK did not suffer from having the Joker as it's main antagonist, depite that the Joker has 0 character development from start to finish. Which is becuase Harvey Two-Face covered all of that and more. Same general concept can apply here with Xykon remaining the main antagonist.

[fknm]

If forced to choose now, my guess is that the final "villain" will be the IFCC, but not in a direct fight- rather, working from the shadows, to turn good vs. good- The Order against themselves, and possibly against the paladins and any other good factions that get introduced during the story (perhaps the dwarfs?)

The parallels between The Order of the Stick and The Order of the Scribble are impossible to ignore, and it fits perfectly with the goals of the IFCC- no total victory, and needless destructive combat for the good guys..

[Nimrod's Son]

Where do get the "extremely high" impression?
Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely certain that it won't happen. But if it were real life, I wouldn't be nearly so confident.

[TheMac04]

Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely certain that it won't happen. But if it were real life, I wouldn't be nearly so confident.
Fortunately, good story-telling overrides probability every time.

[Larkspur]

And yet, I am practically certain it will happen to at least Girard's Gate. I would say that I grant Redcloak credit for pattern recognition as good as mine.:smalltongue:

Redcloak only quasi-knows he's in a webcomic in which Roy Greenhilt is the protagonist, though

From our perspective, the saga of the Gates looks like this:

1. Angst, lichification
2. Lirian's gate goes boom
3. D&D jokes
4. Dorukan's gate goes boom
5. Exposition
6. Soon's gate goes boom
7. V goes crazy, Roy is revived

Every gate we see explodes a few pages later; in that sequence, the logical next step is

8. Girard's gate goes boom

But from Redcloak's subjective viewpoint, it looks more like this:

1. Angst
2. Wander around futilely
3. Xykon
4. Lirian's gate goes boom
5. Wait around futilely for eighteen years
6. Xykon finds Serini's diary
7. Capture Dorukon's gate
8. Wait six months
9. Dorukon's gate goes boom
10. Use hobgoblin army to sack Azure City
11. Soon's gate goes boom
12. Set up Goblintopia
13. Lose phylactery, eye

There's still a trend of exploding gates, but it's not episodic in the same way it is for us. Who knows what happens next in that sequence? Maybe the phylactery was swept out to sea and they have to spend the next thirty years searching for it- there's as much narrative logic to that as to the eighteen year gap. Maybe someone else already blew up Girard's Gate. Maybe it's the Gate they'll succeed in capturing.

I'm sure if you asked him to place a bet he'd agree with you, it's probably going to come down to the final gate. But it's not guaranteed. And Roy should be able to see the same destructive trend; doesn't this make him equally blameworthy for pursuing Team Evil?

[TheMac04]

But from Redcloak's subjective viewpoint, it looks more like this:

1. Angst
2. Wander around futilely
3. Xykon
4. Lirian's gate goes boom
5. Wait around futilely for eighteen years
6. Xykon finds Serini's diary
7. Capture Dorukon's gate
8. Wait six months
9. Dorukon's gate goes boom
10. Use hobgoblin army to sack Azure City
11. Soon's gate goes boom
12. Set up Goblintopia
13. Lose phylactery, eye


Can I sig this?

[LuPuWei]

Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely certain that it won't happen. But if it were real life, I wouldn't be nearly so confident.

Yeah, imagine if the Snarl actually won!- The next day the entire strip disappears from the server...

[JonestheSpy]

Let's also not forget that Redcloak/The Dark One's Plan was regarded as 'evil' long before any of the gates were destroyed - that's why the Sapphire Guard were out murdering goblins so diligently.

As for as the ritual itself, it always had some chance of failure and universal destruction, but we don't really know how likely that chance is.

[Larkspur]

Can I sig this?

Haha, sure. I'm flattered. :smallsmile: You'd better put it under a fold, though; it's hella long.


Let's also not forget that Redcloak/The Dark One's Plan was regarded as 'evil' long before any of the gates were destroyed - that's why the Sapphire Guard were out murdering goblins so diligently.

Of course, their orders came from the Twelve Gods, who have a vested personal interest in not getting mugged. So I don't know how much credence to give their good/evil assessment.

As has been discussed ad nauseam on other threads, there's something a little wonky going on with the gods, the paladins, and OotSwolrld alignment systems.

[Laeranu]

I agree with Larkspur,

The Sapphire Guard are cruel when it comes to killing goblins.
The paladins are Lawful Good (technically) and goblins are Chaotic Evil (technically). But that's just what the D&D rules force them to be, not how they act. Its a description, not a personality. As the OotS emphasizes, its the ideal that matters, not blindly enforcing the rules. Of course paladins being LG will kill creatures that are CE.

And then in SoD it says that the gods created goblinoids just so adventurers could get xp.

I've personally never liked paladins (no offence) and this doesn't really help.

[Laeranu]

oh yeah, and what's this Order of the Scribble I keep hearing about.

[Kish]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

[hamishspence]

NE, not CE (bugbears are usually CE, goblins usually NE, hobgoblins usually LE).

badly played paladins killing creatures "because they're listed as evil" does get mentioned in Origin of PCs- not very favorably.

[Laeranu]

There's nothing in the plan about killing gods.

Well actually, there is. Read 'Start of Darkness's' crayon drawings part

Well, no one would expect it if a Terry Gilliam-style foot came down from the sky and crushed Xykon to death, but that doesn't make it a good idea. :smalltongue:

Yes, but that would be:
1: Impossible (probably),
2: It would make the comic end too quickly.

However, my idea is entirely possible. Besides, I didn't mean it like that. I meant that it wouldn't be the most expected thing to happen. I think the IFCC will be heavily involved in the plot by the time Xykon is defeated.

[Laeranu]

Thanks Kish for that.

[hamishspence]

it's not so much "killing gods" as "threatening the gods with Death By Snarl if they don't do what you want"

The gods are not required to die for Redcloak's plan to work.

[Laeranu]

I suppose that's true...

[Nimrod's Son]

Well actually, there is. Read 'Start of Darkness's' crayon drawings part
Read it yourself. :smalltongue:

:redcloak:: "Once the Dark One has control over which plane the Snarl attacks, he can use it as leverage against the other gods to finally agree to a fair distribution of resources among all of the sentient races."

Actually killing any gods would be just as much of a last resort as undoing all creation and starting again.


I meant that it wouldn't be the most expected thing to happen. I think the IFCC will be heavily involved in the plot by the time Xykon is defeated.
I know what you meant. But as well as being a great story in its own right, OotS is still a parody of typical fantasy conventions. Xykon's raison d'etre is to be the bad guy. The IFCC have been added to provide colourful complications along the way, not to take over as the primary antagonists. That's just not the way these stories work.

[Itous]

well Elan is an action hero, we all know the heros best friend dies, as does his team, the girl gets kidnapped and he saves the day with seconds to spare.

yes elan is going to have a showdown with xykon and stop the snarl from being released and save the day using roy's sword this way "a greenhilt defeated xykon" a refrence to a greenhilt doesn't mean a person, could mean an object and seeing as roys sword has a greenhilt it works.

[Larkspur]

Although come to think of it, annihilating the other gods would solve the problem. All divine power would then be in the hands of the Dark One, and he could presumably do whatever it is he's trying to force the other gods to do. Then again, the Dark One as presented to Redcloak has always been a "Negotiate, but with a big stick" kind of guy rather than a "Kill everyone, rule the rubble" kind of guy, so it seems in (alleged) character for him to try to force the others to cooperate rather than just feeding them all to the Snarl.