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View Full Version : Wu jen/?? Gestalt build, 3.5



Rosalinath
2010-07-26, 04:43 PM
I need help making a character for a gestalt campaign with a total of three players, me included. The idea is most likely a Air focused Wu jen moving into elemental savant. I'm not sure what to do with the other side though.

the level is 5th, the other two players are a Ninja (homebrew)/Sorcerer (Illusion) and a Paladin/somesuch. I want to be strong without abusing the godliness that is the optimized wizard build. I want to focus on utility and air/electricity effects, maybe with some telekinesis added for fun.

Any ideas?

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 04:47 PM
Int-based casters generally pair well with either Factotum or Warblade for some physical ability and better saving throws/attack bonus/skills.

Rosalinath
2010-07-26, 04:52 PM
hmm...for warblade wouldn't it be a waste seeing as how the lack of armor would lower the ac a lot?

TooManyBadgers
2010-07-26, 04:59 PM
hmm...for warblade wouldn't it be a waste seeing as how the lack of armor would lower the ac a lot?

Doesn't the Wu Jen list have any defensive spells?
Regardless, loading up on counters and boosts can make Warblade greatly benefit the Wu Jen, even if the Wu Jen fails to benefit the Warblade.

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 05:02 PM
hmm...for warblade wouldn't it be a waste seeing as how the lack of armor would lower the ac a lot?

There's a lot of armor you can get without spell failure e.g. the oft-cited +4 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt. The benefits are worth it, especially if you use Body Outside Body to generate your own army of master swordsmen.

Rosalinath
2010-07-26, 05:03 PM
yes, u two are correct in ur statments. the build will be Wu jen/Elemental Savent//Warblade unless I find a better choice. Now does anyone know of any good air themed spells that I should try to persuade my dm into getting for the wu jen spell list? also any weapons/items/feats/e.t.c that are really worth getting? I have 5th level standard wealth so yeah

Optimystik
2010-07-26, 05:05 PM
Doesn't the Wu Jen list have any defensive spells?
Regardless, loading up on counters and boosts can make Warblade greatly benefit the Wu Jen, even if the Wu Jen fails to benefit the Warblade.

As in my post, Wu Jen has a massive benefit for Warblade through Body Outside Body.

Also, Wu Jen have several stylish spells that require attack rolls, like Decapitating Scarf - your higher BAB will make those spells actually work.

Prime32
2010-07-26, 06:44 PM
yes, u two are correct in ur statments. the build will be Wu jen/Elemental Savent//Warblade unless I find a better choice. Now does anyone know of any good air themed spells that I should try to persuade my dm into getting for the wu jen spell list? also any weapons/items/feats/e.t.c that are really worth getting? I have 5th level standard wealth so yeahWhat about seeking ray?

PId6
2010-07-26, 07:24 PM
You should take Wu Jen on the other side of the gestalt on levels where Elemental Savant loses casting, so you won't lose any caster levels. I would definitely second the Warblade suggestion. For AC, since Wu Jen is a prepared caster, you can prepare Greater Luminous Armor from Book of Exalted Deeds (if you're Good), which is top of the line as far as AC-boosting spells go.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-27, 12:05 AM
Mind the stat damage though, it happens after the spell ends.

BooNL
2010-07-27, 12:24 AM
You should take Wu Jen on the other side of the gestalt on levels where Elemental Savant loses casting, so you won't lose any caster levels. I would definitely second the Warblade suggestion. For AC, since Wu Jen is a prepared caster, you can prepare Greater Luminous Armor from Book of Exalted Deeds (if you're Good), which is top of the line as far as AC-boosting spells go.

I have never understood people making suggestions like these.

In my mind, making a gestalt character is like making two different characters and sticking them together with superglue. IMO, this is the most balanced way to go, both sides are seperated from each other class-wise and you're not allowed to take the same class on the other side of the gestalt.

You're suggesting:

Wu Jen//Warblade
Wu Jen//Warblade
Elemental Savant//Warblade
Elemental Savant//Wu Jen
Elemental Savant//Warblade

Where does it say, *anywhere* in the gestalt rules that you're allowed to do this? I find this "tactic" so unbelievable stupid and broken.

Note: I'm not insulting you or your playstyle, I'm just a little annoyed that a lot of people tend to view gestalt as a way to optimize and cheese the heck out of their characters. For me, gestalt is a way to have a powerful character without all the cheesy implementations. I can simply pick up 2 cool classes and fuse them together.

Kantolin
2010-07-27, 12:55 AM
I'm just a little annoyed that a lot of people tend to view gestalt as a way to optimize and cheese the heck out of their characters. For me, gestalt is a way to have a powerful character without all the cheesy implementations. I can simply pick up 2 cool classes and fuse them together.

A lot of spellcasting prestige classes are cool, but vary from horribly nerfing to utterly useless. With the ability to pick a spellcasting class on the other side, you're actually still hurting yourself in most cases - it means you're taking the previous class with +1 spellcasting for both sides of your gestalt.

So with that rule in place, you can see people playing heirophants and masters of the unseen hand and other lousy classes that are really cool in theme, without feeling like you're shooting yourself.

Now, you can also utilize this as an optimizer, but whether or not that's good or bad is a matter for another poster, probably involving ninjaing me.

BooNL
2010-07-27, 01:08 AM
A lot of spellcasting prestige classes are cool, but vary from horribly nerfing to utterly useless. With the ability to pick a spellcasting class on the other side, you're actually still hurting yourself in most cases - it means you're taking the previous class with +1 spellcasting for both sides of your gestalt.

So with that rule in place, you can see people playing heirophants and masters of the unseen hand and other lousy classes that are really cool in theme, without feeling like you're shooting yourself.

Now, you can also utilize this as an optimizer, but whether or not that's good or bad is a matter for another poster, probably involving ninjaing me.

Well, there's two ways to solve that:

1. fix the class. If a class is really cool but it obviously suffers from 5/10 casting, confer with your DM to up that progression.
2. take the PrC *fully* on the other side of the gestalt. In the example of this thread, you could easily postpone your Warblade levels and take Elemental Savant on that side to gain full progression if you wanted. I wouldn't do that to be honest, but it's an option.

I feel mix and matching your classes across both gestalts to gain full advantage of everything you could possibly get isn't what the original intent was.

Demons_eye
2010-07-27, 01:10 AM
2. take the PrC *fully* on the other side of the gestalt. In the example of this thread, you could easily postpone your Warblade levels and take Elemental Savant on that side to gain full progression if you wanted. I wouldn't do that to be honest, but it's an option.


What would you take on the other side when your levels dont stack for casting?

BooNL
2010-07-27, 01:14 AM
What would you take on the other side when your levels dont stack for casting?

Simple, your spellcasting class.

This way, you're basically giving up the progression from the PrC in favor of the full progression from your base class.

Granted, this isn't a great solution for most classes, but let's look at something like Spellsword, a 5/10 progression class. If you take it on your wizard side, you lose progression but gain full BaB (which you may have had from your other gestalt class). If you take it on the other side, you give up the half progression in favor of full, in exchange for you other class' features.

Demons_eye
2010-07-27, 01:20 AM
I feel mix and matching your classes across both gestalts to gain full advantage of everything you could possibly get isn't what the original intent was.


Simple, your spellcasting class.

This way, you're basically giving up the progression from the PrC in favor of the full progression from your base class.

Granted, this isn't a great solution for most classes, but let's look at something like Spellsword, a 5/10 progression class. If you take it on your wizard side, you lose progression but gain full BaB (which you may have had from your other gestalt class). If you take it on the other side, you give up the half progression in favor of full, in exchange for you other class' features.


I don't mean to put words in your mouth but your not using the PcR as intended at that point otherwise it would have full casting in the first place.


I see it as your character is not two people but one person. This means if he is a powerful elemental caster with some fancy sword strike to back him up thats how is should show up on the sheet. If hes more caster then warrior crunch it as such.

PId6
2010-07-27, 01:42 AM
In my mind, making a gestalt character is like making two different characters and sticking them together with superglue. IMO, this is the most balanced way to go, both sides are seperated from each other class-wise and you're not allowed to take the same class on the other side of the gestalt.
It's not taking the same class if the PrC doesn't advance casting at that level. Doing this makes worthless PrCs actually playable without horribly gimping yourself. It's perfectly legal, perfectly valid, and isn't even broken unless you're out to break it. Elemental Savant is one of those classes that doesn't deserve the lost caster levels; fixing the casting progression by taking Wu Jen on the other side would solve the problem easily.


You're suggesting:

Wu Jen//Warblade
Wu Jen//Warblade
Elemental Savant//Warblade
Elemental Savant//Wu Jen
Elemental Savant//Warblade
No, I'm suggesting this:

Wu Jen//Warblade
Wu Jen//Warblade
Elemental Savant//Warblade
Elemental Savant//Warblade
Elemental Savant//Warblade
Elemental Savant//Warblade
Elemental Savant//Wu Jen
Elemental Savant//Warblade
Elemental Savant//Warblade
Elemental Savant//Warblade
Elemental Savant//Warblade
Elemental Savant//Wu Jen

This only takes Wu Jen on the other side when Elemental Savant doesn't progress casting. It's a valid way to do it, since Gestalt only prevents advancing the same class features twice if both classes have the same feature. At those levels, Wu Jen spellcasting is only advanced by Wu Jen, not Elemental Savant, so there's no conflict there. (In fact, the idea of "sides" isn't actually in gestalt rules; it's just a convenient way to think about it. Every level, you choose two classes to level up in; it doesn't matter what "side" they're on.)

Kantolin
2010-07-27, 01:44 AM
1. fix the class. If a class is really cool but it obviously suffers from 5/10 casting, confer with your DM to up that progression.

Or play gestalt, and just let the player spend both sides of his gestalt to get 10/10 casting? That seems way easier.


2. take the PrC *fully* on the other side of the gestalt. In the example of this thread, you could easily postpone your Warblade levels and take Elemental Savant on that side to gain full progression if you wanted. I wouldn't do that to be honest, but it's an option.

What?

In this case, you're losing out on warblade levels on that side. So if you're, uh, Wizard 5 / MotUH1 // Warblade 5 / Wizard 1. So your 6th level is 'Master of the Unseen Hand // Wizard, resulting in you gaining just casting and familiar stuff.

If you changed the class to be full casting, in fact, then you could go Wizard 5 / MotUH1 // Warblade 6, so it'd be stronger than this suggestion.

>_> Really, you seem upset because people can then use it to optimize to a greater extent than you'd prefer. And uh... eh? People will optimize. If you don't like how powerful a character is, then deal with that character, don't try to squelsh the rule.

If you don't like powerful characters, you probably shouldn't be playing gestalt anyway - it's very good from an optimization standpoint in and of itself regardless of what limitations are put on it unless you do one of the neat 'Gestalt with npc class only' options.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-27, 01:54 AM
Generic Warrior. Bonus general feats at level 1 and every even numbered level!

BooNL
2010-07-27, 02:20 AM
>_> Really, you seem upset because people can then use it to optimize to a greater extent than you'd prefer. And uh... eh? People will optimize. If you don't like how powerful a character is, then deal with that character, don't try to squelsh the rule.

I guess this pretty much sums up my frustration. It's not that I don't like optimizers, heck I optimize as well. It's just that I find gestalt to be a beautiful system that can flawlessly incorperate two seperate classes into a single powerful character. I don't like it when those same rules are used for dubious intent.

Look at it this way, if a class gets only 7/10 casting progression, WOTC must have felt that it deserved it. We, ofcourse, know it's usually not the case but IMO it's not fair to switch around classes on the gestalt in order to get the most benefit.
The problem lies with the class, so fix the class.

I know you don't share my opnion, but I like gestalt because of it's easy way to create strong characters. You simply take 2 classes and maybe a PrC and stick them together. No need to multiclass into 5 different classes to get the same result.

Kantolin
2010-07-27, 02:30 AM
I know you don't share my opnion, but I like gestalt because of it's easy way to create strong characters. You simply take 2 classes and maybe a PrC and stick them together. No need to multiclass into 5 different classes to get the same result.


That's actually an acceptable view - I feel similarly. I like gestalt as it lets me play my half-orc barbarian-wizard and the like very easily, and offers up fun concepts. I also like it because it means I can play a master of the unseen hand that is not useless.

The 'you can take a casting class on the opposite side so you don't lose casting' does not result in a 5 different multiclass, and multiclassing into 5 different classes is in most cases weaker than a wizard//factotum or similar powerbuild. Meh. That's another case of if you don't like optimization, then ask your group not to optimize (I don't like it, my group doesn't do it, so we're all generally quite cool).

PId6
2010-07-27, 02:34 AM
Look at it this way, if a class gets only 7/10 casting progression, WOTC must have felt that it deserved it. We, ofcourse, know it's usually not the case but IMO it's not fair to switch around classes on the gestalt in order to get the most benefit.
The problem lies with the class, so fix the class.
Why take so much more effort homebrewing a solution when you've a workable one already? If you have a character concept in gestalt involving a class like Elemental Savant which shouldn't lose caster levels, why shouldn't you just take the elegant solution and fix the casting progression yourself? Homebrewing takes much more effort than just taking the class on the other side, and many DMs aren't receptive to homebrew anyhow.


I know you don't share my opnion, but I like gestalt because of it's easy way to create strong characters. You simply take 2 classes and maybe a PrC and stick them together. No need to multiclass into 5 different classes to get the same result.
Even if you personally dislike multiclassing, others might enjoy the game differently. Multiclassing is a part of the system, and if it helps someone achieve a concept they like, why shouldn't they multiclass?

Rosalinath
2010-07-27, 01:52 PM
interesting :smallbiggrin: a lot has happened since I last logged off.

For those finding the above builds involving granting full casting levels let me tell you this: No one in my party is abusing the system in any way and so neither will I. I will gladly accept the lose of a casting levels for the prc. on the other side of the argument I recognize the use of the build and would have used it if my fellow players were any good at making powerful characters.

Now for the actual Warblade side what would people suggest for me? I was thinking Diamond Mind but what would u suggest? anything about the wu jen that would be useful is also requested still

PId6
2010-07-27, 02:13 PM
Now for the actual Warblade side what would people suggest for me? I was thinking Diamond Mind but what would u suggest? anything about the wu jen that would be useful is also requested still
Diamond Mind is obvious, since you're maxing Concentration anyway. Iron Heart has solid strikes and useful misc maneuvers as well, including the oh-so-awesome Iron Heart Surge (in case you're ever in an AMF). Stone Dragon is probably not so great since you're probably going to be flying a lot. White Raven is good, especially for White Raven Tactics, so pick up a few of those. Tiger Claw is skippable unless you want to go TWF.