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Zergrusheddie
2010-07-26, 08:48 PM
For the purpose of this post, I mean "stunlock" to describe "Any actions taken to specifically make an opponent unable to act."

Are there any builds that are able to specialize very effectively at stunlocking? Obviously, a Wizard is probably the ultimate winner but just using spells seems dull. I know melee types can Trip and Grapple, but are there builds that can just make their enemies completely unable to act?

Best of luck.
-Eddie

Zaq
2010-07-26, 08:50 PM
What game are you playing?

Zergrusheddie
2010-07-26, 08:53 PM
I see that I never mentioned it.

3.5 DnD.

cupkeyk
2010-07-26, 08:58 PM
Diplomancer bards can too.

Sublime chord has a song that allows them to freeze a person in time or stun them or other stuff. Of course its so much easier for a sublime chord to just blast a baddie into powder but yeah the diplomancer is fun.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-26, 08:59 PM
Ah. Well, it depends on what people are doing.

The Spiked Chain Tripper is a lockdown build (chug a potion of Enlarge Person, and you selectively control quite a large section of the battlefield). However, it mostly only works against melee-based opponents (although there's a few feats that let it work a bit against spellcasters).

A Druid's Entangle spell is remarkably useful for that.

The Wizard, of course, has a LOT of ways to pull it off.

Certain Cleric domains grant the ability to pull Wizard's tricks or Druid's tricks in limited amounts.

"You can't hurt what you can't find" - a Rogue that picks up Hide in Plain Sight can sort-of do this.

Are you looking for any specific flavor?

Zaq
2010-07-26, 09:00 PM
It's a bit too powerful and one-trickish to see a lot of use in actual play (at least in my book, YMMV), but Boomerang Daze (with or without Aptitude weapons) is a fightin' man's way of making sure that a target simply doesn't get to act. Ever.

Prodan
2010-07-26, 09:00 PM
The monk, of course.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-26, 09:01 PM
The soulborn soulmeld Lightning Greaves attaches a save-or-stun to your charge attacks. With pounce, this can mean upwards of five saves per round (more if you totemist it out). Accessible to non-soulborn incarnum classes by spending a feat.

Mongoose87
2010-07-26, 09:03 PM
The monk, of course.

He said opponent, not yourself.

tyckspoon
2010-07-26, 11:49 PM
A Psion focusing on Energy Stun, especially if you use it as printed with the fast-scaling DC in the XPH instead of the C.Psi version. It's not too hard to put out DC 30+ stuns with that.

Saya
2010-07-27, 12:10 AM
Become a lich, boost your cha to ridiculous levels, then reach out and touch someone?

Superglucose
2010-07-27, 12:15 AM
You can do it with grappling.

Exclude yourself from a centered AMF (to take care of enemy buffs such as freedom of movement), Shapechange into a Balor, and then sit on their face. For added lulz, throw in some buffs.

Keld Denar
2010-07-27, 12:46 AM
The soulborn soulmeld Lightning Greaves Thunderstride Boots attaches a save-or-stun to your charge attacks.

Fixed for accuracy. Come on Fax, I thought you were a MoI guru? *fingerwag*.

If you were a Gravetouched Ghoul (Libris Mortis, +2 LA) as a Cha focused debuffer, you could force a DC 45ish Fort save vs paralysis with every touch. Simply stack on debuffs like Aura of Dispair, Aura of Sadness, Dark Companion, fear effects, Hex, etc, and take Ability Focus: Paralyzing Touch and Improved Paralysis. Doesn't work on everything, but I'll neuter just about any humanoid for long enough to slowly break every bone in his body to drink the delicious marrow while he's still alive but unable to scream...

ex cathedra
2010-07-27, 12:56 AM
Boomerang Daze [Races of Eberron], as mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9011370&postcount=6), makes this rather easy; whenever you deal damage with a Talenta/Xen'drik Boomerang, the creature being damaged must make a Fortitude save versus Daze (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazed). Seems good, right? I failed to mention that the DC is 10 + the damage dealt by the attack.

It's bad enough on its own. Aptitude Weapons say 'Hi', regardless.

Ravens_cry
2010-07-27, 01:03 AM
Boomerang Daze [Races of Eberron], as mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9011370&postcount=6), makes this rather easy; whenever you deal damage with a Talenta/Xen'drik Boomerang, the creature being damaged must make a Fortitude save versus Daze (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazed). Seems good, right? I failed to mention that the DC is 10 + the damage dealt by the attack.

It's bad enough on its own. Aptitude Weapons say 'Hi', regardless.
Is there also an Ocarina that summons a whirlwind that takes you to previously visited dungeons and opens a magic stairway at a certain lake?

Eurus
2010-07-27, 01:07 AM
Spellwarp Sniper can be fun, too. Removes reflex saves from spells that you warp. Good with things like Sandblast and Great Thunderclap.

ex cathedra
2010-07-27, 01:24 AM
Is there also an Ocarina that summons a whirlwind that takes you to previously visited dungeons and opens a magic stairway at a certain lake?

No, but I'm sure that I could find a suitable replacement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicitems/wondrousitems.htm#candleofInvocation).

It does everything.

Mongoose87
2010-07-27, 06:45 AM
Is there also an Ocarina that summons a whirlwind that takes you to previously visited dungeons and opens a magic stairway at a certain lake?

Too bad you can't devour your enemies' hearts to heal yourself.

Amphetryon
2010-07-27, 06:55 AM
Given that one Feat (Mark of the Dauntless) completely negates stun/daze, while another (Quick Recovery) makes it considerably easier to resist, how useful is Stunlocking in the meta-discussion? Folks regularly discount Enchantment because it can be obviated with a single choice, after all.

Tytalus
2010-07-27, 07:40 AM
A proper lockdown build can achieve essentially this; it prevents certain actions (spellcasting with Mage Slayer, moving with Thicket of Blades + Standstill), while punishing others severely to make them effectively useless (melee attack with Robillard's Gambit, grapple with Close Quarters fighting, etc.). If you do it right, you make even taking no action at all a bad option (e.g., with Defensive Sweep).

Other than that, Dazing is excellent (Boomerang Daze has been mentioned, but there are other options like "Shield Slam, Anvil of Thunder, Boomerang Daze, Killoren Smite, Devoted Inquisitor, Dire Flail Smash, Arcane Focus soulmeld, Incarnum Blast invocation, Dahlver-Nar vestige, Dazing Strike maneuver, and a few magic items." (to quote Person Man from another thread).


Given that one Feat (Mark of the Dauntless) completely negates stun/daze, while another (Quick Recovery) makes it considerably easier to resist, how useful is Stunlocking in the meta-discussion? Folks regularly discount Enchantment because it can be obviated with a single choice, after all.

Stunning is just used as an example here. The thread is about denying your opponent actions.

Also, Mark of the Dauntless and Quick Recovery are from sources that are not available to all games.

Amphetryon
2010-07-27, 07:49 AM
Also, Mark of the Dauntless and Quick Recovery are from sources that are not available to all games. As are Mage Slayer, Thicket of Blades + Standstill, Robilar's Gambit, Close Quarters Fighting, Boomerang Daze, Shield Slam, Anvil of Thunder, Killoren Smite, Devoted Inquisitor, Dire Flail Smash, Arcane Focus soulmeld, Incarnum Blast invocation, Dahlver-Nar vestige, Dazing Strike maneuver...

9mm
2010-07-27, 08:21 AM
most of the really good stunlockers have been mentioned. other goodies include the sudden stunning enhancement, various manuvers... oh hell let me just post my old ToS build that goofed around (though not as well as I would have liked) the concept:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=199060

Tytalus
2010-07-27, 08:40 AM
As are Mage Slayer, Thicket of Blades + Standstill, Robilar's Gambit, Close Quarters Fighting, Boomerang Daze, Shield Slam, Anvil of Thunder, Killoren Smite, Devoted Inquisitor, Dire Flail Smash, Arcane Focus soulmeld, Incarnum Blast invocation, Dahlver-Nar vestige, Dazing Strike maneuver...

What are you trying to say here?

These are largely individual options that achieve what the OP asked for; if even one of them is allowed (in particular a Daze tactic), the lock works.

You, however, proposed that a single feat (Quick Recovery doesn't help against lockdown or Daze-locks) from an setting-specific (!) supplement renders this discussion moot. It would, if said supplement was allowed and if all opponents had said feat. In reality, though, it clearly doesn't.

Person_Man
2010-07-27, 08:51 AM
I see that the best advice has already been given. I'd also mention that at it's best locking down an enemy is generally a defensive tactic (ie, it prevents them from attacking or moving away from you). In terms of offense, you should just be able to kill your enemy with pure damage in one round. There are exceptions, of course. Boss enemies might be so tough that you can't one-shot them, and a few classes like the Binder and Incarnate specialize in wacky combos rather then strait out killing.

But in general, if you're going to invest 3ish feats and/or a number of class levels in a lock down combo, make sure you've also taken the time to invest in a damage dealing combo, because it's a lot more efficient.

And if you're going to be playing with a lock down build in a group that's not used to it, I'd make a point of getting Iron Heart Surge and a high Str modifier. It's only a matter of time before your DM decides to use your own combos against you.

Celsius
2010-07-27, 11:24 AM
The stunlock combo I like to pull off (at least in core-only low to mid tier play) is a Stinking Cloud + Evard's Black Tentacles combo.

Stinking Cloud restricts the enemy(ies) to a single standard action, which is required to escape the grapple of the Black Tentacles, which means that they won't have enough actions to escape the Stinking Cloud, which means that they don't get another chance at the save.

Of course, this wanes in usefulness once enemies start getting stuff like Freedom of Movement or Quickened Dimension Doors, but it's pretty good for the small investment you put in. (2 Conjuration Spells Known for a Wizard)

Mushroom Ninja
2010-07-27, 12:34 PM
Ironsoul Forgemaster gets a chance to daze with all melee attacks at a certain level.

Flickerdart
2010-07-27, 12:39 PM
Bladeweave is a 2nd level spell that lands a Will save daze on everyone you hit during its round/level duration. Swift action cast, IIRC. War Cry, a 4th level spell (and definitely a swift action to cast) makes people you hit panicked instead.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-07-27, 12:48 PM
Minor nitpick on Mark of the Dauntless: it requires both a racial requirement (human, half-elf, gnome, elf, or dwarf) due to needing a true dragonmark and then another feat for the dragonmark itself. Quick Recovery is better, as it's one feat in and of itself and lessens the potential save, but that only works at the start of your turn, so anyone who whips the action economy or has teammates just laughs at you instead.



Bladeweave is a 2nd level spell that lands a Will save daze on everyone you hit during its round/level duration. Swift action cast, IIRC. War Cry, a 4th level spell (and definitely a swift action to cast) makes people you hit panicked instead.

Since Bladeweave is a personal buff spell, I suggest throwing War Weaver on top of it so everyone in your party gets to force Will save or daze! And at your save DC, too!

PId6
2010-07-27, 01:01 PM
One broken daze-lock spell is Bladesong (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010126a). Every round you attack with a weapon (you don't even have to hit), you can make a touch attack with that weapon to automatically daze someone for 1 round, no save. Since touch attacks are often auto-hit, this is incredibly powerful for a 2nd level spell and easily lets you daze-lock someone to death.

Flickerdart
2010-07-27, 01:04 PM
Bladesong was replaced by Bladeweave in MIC, I believe.

Eloel
2010-07-27, 01:34 PM
Sorcerer/Spellwarp Sniper.
Arcane Fusion:
True Strike + Ray-ified Wings of Flurry.

Get the feat that lets you reroll nat1s (or smt like that)

WoF has a reflex to avoid stun.
Rayifying ditches the reflex save.
True Strike makes sure it hits.

If you can go nova, you can keep stuff stunned for a looong time...

Jota
2010-07-27, 01:52 PM
Baleful Utterance is cool. You've got Chilling Tentacles, Noxious Blast, Summon Swarm, and Tenacious Plague too. I've seen a lot of glaivelock builds that focus on Standstill and Thicket of Blades as well, so you can combine those to some extent.

PId6
2010-07-27, 02:10 PM
Bladesong was replaced by Bladeweave in MIC, I believe.
If you mean SpC, nope, not on the list. Bladeweave is obviously inspired by Bladesong, but it doesn't replace it by RAW.

Sir Giacomo
2010-07-27, 03:25 PM
The monk, of course.

In support of Prodan here. A stunning fist DC in the 30s can be quite nasty, plus feats that extend the stunning effect. Works with or without magic.

- Giacomo

Malakar
2010-07-27, 04:34 PM
In support of Prodan here. A stunning fist DC in the 30s can be quite nasty, plus feats that extend the stunning effect. Works with or without magic.

How exactly and at what level are you getting the DC 30 stunning fist, and how is that any better than the DC of a comparable level. Wizard casting stunning spells?

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-07-27, 04:53 PM
In support of Prodan here. A stunning fist DC in the 30s can be quite nasty, plus feats that extend the stunning effect. Works with or without magic.

- Giacomo


How exactly and at what level are you getting the DC 30 stunning fist, and how is that any better than the DC of a comparable level. Wizard casting stunning spells?

Not to mention the fact that it is a fortitude save, so even things that aren't immune outright may still laugh it off with their +27 Fort.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-27, 04:58 PM
Can we not get into a monk argument please. -_-

Keld Denar
2010-07-27, 05:03 PM
Oh come on...its been like, 3-4 weeks since the last good one. We don't want to get rusty!

Ernir
2010-07-27, 05:10 PM
There's always Imperious Command to lock down those who aren't immune to fear. Combine with Fearsome Armor/CoV Fighter Substitution Levels/stuff to make sure you can act while doing it.

true_shinken
2010-07-27, 05:27 PM
Oh come on...its been like, 3-4 weeks since the last good one. We don't want to get rusty!

But there is nothing more to say about this!

The Glyphstone
2010-07-27, 05:31 PM
It's a GitP staple unfortunately. Monk threads, ToB threads, Wizards vs. Fighter threads, and Paladin falling threads are our Unholy Quadrilogy. All you can do is grin, bear it, and wait for the cycle to shift to the one you enjoy reading most. Want some popcorn in the meantime?

Ravens_cry
2010-07-27, 05:31 PM
Too bad you can't devour your enemies' hearts to heal yourself.

You could fluff vampiric touch like that if you do enough damage to kill them. Man, Zelda 1 was sick if you think about it long enough, but then, so was Super Mario.

true_shinken
2010-07-27, 05:36 PM
You could fluff vampiric touch like that if you do enough damage to kill them. Man, Zelda 1 was sick if you think about it long enough, but then, so was Super Mario.

Mario is avatal of capitalism. He literally steps on his enemies' heads so he can get... coins!

Runestar
2010-07-27, 10:30 PM
No many replies and no one has mentioned white raven hammer? 8th lv maneuver, tome of battle, +6d6 damage and stuns for 1 round without save.:smalleek:

The Glyphstone
2010-07-27, 10:45 PM
How dare you bring such rubbish cheese like ToB into our gentlepersonly discussion!? Real D&D players use Monks - they don't even have the 1-round recharge time that WRH would on a Warblade with Martial Study feats, and they also have no save attached, as the enemy is repeatedly stunned round after round by the fact that you voluntarily played a monk.:smallbiggrin:

Chambers
2010-07-27, 11:43 PM
For the purpose of this post, I mean "stunlock" to describe "Any actions taken to specifically make an opponent unable to act."

Killing them. :smallbiggrin:

::runs and hide from thrown fruits and vegetables::

Seriously though, I'm actually a fan of the monk's stunning fist. Yes, a lot of creatures have really high Fort saves - so stun the wizard that's buffing the BSF. The Pain Touch feat is good too if you're playing in a game where using stunning fist is a reliable option. I played in such a game and it was really fun.

I know, I know. Just about everyone can do it better. But it's fun to punch people so hard they lose their wits for a moment.

Various ways to boost the DC:
Ki Straps [+2]
Ability Focus Feat [+2]
Panther Mask [+1]

Alcopop
2010-07-28, 12:12 AM
A Psion focusing on Energy Stun, especially if you use it as printed with the fast-scaling DC in the XPH instead of the C.Psi version. It's not too hard to put out DC 30+ stuns with that.

Except that would be cheating. Seeing as the C.Psi version acts as the errata. But even without the fast scaling stun it's still a great power.

Coidzor
2010-07-28, 12:16 AM
It's a GitP staple unfortunately. Monk threads, ToB threads, Wizards vs. Fighter threads, and Paladin falling threads are our Unholy Quadrilogy. All you can do is grin, bear it, and wait for the cycle to shift to the one you enjoy reading most. Want some popcorn in the meantime?

More like... Forum Herpes...

Keld Denar
2010-07-28, 12:29 AM
At least they make drugs to prevent IRL flare-ups. There is no cure or treatment for Forum Herpies.

Malakar
2010-07-28, 12:41 AM
Seriously though, I'm actually a fan of the monk's stunning fist. Yes, a lot of creatures have really high Fort saves - so stun the wizard that's buffing the BSF.

Great idea if you happen to run into only Wizards who aren't immune to stunning (For example, by casting a spell, or being a Lich) but not very useful in reality since most casters in the MMs are various hybrid casters like outsiders, who have very good fort saves. They don't need to have Wizards to buff fighters because they are already better fighters than fighters, and they cast spells too.


Various ways to boost the DC:
Ki Straps [+2]
Ability Focus Feat [+2]
Panther Mask [+1]

And where are these Ki straps and Panther Mask? And how does that compare with a character who's save DC is based on a primary stat instead of a third priority stat?

Chambers
2010-07-28, 12:58 AM
Great idea if you happen to run into only Wizards who aren't immune to stunning (For example, by casting a spell, or being a Lich) but not very useful in reality since most casters in the MMs are various hybrid casters like outsiders, who have very good fort saves. They don't need to have Wizards to buff fighters because they are already better fighters than fighters, and they cast spells too.



And where are these Ki straps and Panther Mask? And how does that compare with a character who's save DC is based on a primary stat instead of a third priority stat?

Ki Straps and Panther Mask are in the MIC.

And you totally missed my point.


The Pain Touch feat is good too if you're playing in a game where using stunning fist is a reliable option. I played in such a game and it was really fun.

Bolded for emphasis.

I know Wizards are better than Monks. I know there's lots of easy ways to shut a Monk down. However, not all campaign's are run according to the 3.5 stress limits. Some games are different, at lower power levels. In those games where a monk can actually contribute to the combat, it's really fun to go around stunning people.

Ravens_cry
2010-07-28, 01:09 AM
At least they make drugs to prevent IRL flare-ups. There is no cure or treatment for Forum Herpies.
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Thurbane
2010-07-28, 03:16 AM
Too bad you can't devour your enemies' hearts to heal yourself.
Now that would be a cool Monstrous/Vile feat.

PId6
2010-07-28, 04:37 AM
It's a GitP staple unfortunately. Monk threads, ToB threads, Wizards vs. Fighter threads, and Paladin falling threads are our Unholy Quadrilogy. All you can do is grin, bear it, and wait for the cycle to shift to the one you enjoy reading most. Want some popcorn in the meantime?
Speaking of unfortunate GitP staples...


Killing them. :smallbiggrin:
But killing them wouldn't make them unable to act! :smalltongue:

Malakar
2010-07-28, 08:11 AM
And you totally missed my point.

...

I know Wizards are better than Monks. I know there's lots of easy ways to shut a Monk down. However, not all campaign's are run according to the 3.5 stress limits. Some games are different, at lower power levels. In those games where a monk can actually contribute to the combat, it's really fun to go around stunning people.

No, I didn't miss your point. I made a statement clarifying the extent of a situation, and then asked a question.

You said in situation X, Monks can be good. I made a statement about what situations count as X. As it turns out, apparently, yes Monks can be good at stunning when the DM doesn't use Monsters from the Monster Manuals. But they are bad at stunning when the Dm does use Monsters from the Monster Manuals. That's not missing the point, it's a statement about the likelihood of the situation. Just like if you had said "Monks are great at stunning when the DM gives them a +40 untyped bonus to all stats" and I had pointed out that DMs don't often do that.

Then I asked a question, because I wanted to know how a Monk save DC would compare to the DC of people who have the luxury of focusing on one stat. But I guess it's more fun to just not answer my question and instead claim I missed your point. Because after all, answering my question would require actually comparing two things, instead of just getting offended.

Flickerdart
2010-07-28, 09:21 AM
If you mean SpC, nope, not on the list. Bladeweave is obviously inspired by Bladesong, but it doesn't replace it by RAW.
Yes, I meant SpC. And I could've sworn it was replaced...all the better that it wasn't. That's a seriously good spell.

Chambers
2010-07-28, 10:45 AM
No, I didn't miss your point. I made a statement clarifying the extent of a situation, and then asked a question.

You said in situation X, Monks can be good. I made a statement about what situations count as X. As it turns out, apparently, yes Monks can be good at stunning when the DM doesn't use Monsters from the Monster Manuals. But they are bad at stunning when the Dm does use Monsters from the Monster Manuals. That's not missing the point, it's a statement about the likelihood of the situation. Just like if you had said "Monks are great at stunning when the DM gives them a +40 untyped bonus to all stats" and I had pointed out that DMs don't often do that.

Then I asked a question, because I wanted to know how a Monk save DC would compare to the DC of people who have the luxury of focusing on one stat. But I guess it's more fun to just not answer my question and instead claim I missed your point. Because after all, answering my question would require actually comparing two things, instead of just getting offended.

All of the PC races are in the Monster Manual and a Monster made from them advances by class level. Some classes have poor Fortitude saves. Therefore, there are situations where a DM can use a Monster from the Monster Manual and it not have a really high Fort save. Crazy, wild, monsters, like an Elf Rogue.

There's no need to make a statement about the likelihood of the situation - my whole point is that the situation has already happened, regardless of how unlikely it may be.

A monk's DC doesn't compare to a wizards DC. I didn't answer that specifically because I figured that was obvious; the wizard beats the monk. I already stated I knew this in my first post on this thread. The point of my post was not about the likelihood of such a game happening, or trying to say that X compares to Y when it clearly doesn't.

Sir Giacomo
2010-07-28, 12:09 PM
As it turns out, apparently, yes Monks can be good at stunning when the DM doesn't use Monsters from the Monster Manuals. But they are bad at stunning when the Dm does use Monsters from the Monster Manuals. That's not missing the point, it's a statement about the likelihood of the situation.

You may wish to reconsider this opinion.
In core, a monk can start out with a stunning fist DC of 16 at level 1 and end at a DC of 34 at level 20 (without any age mods).
Assuming linear development, check out the average fort save of CR appropriate core MM monsters for each monk level.

You'll be surprised :smallwink:

Of course, the stunning fist DC can go up quite substantially with non-core rules while I guess that the average noncore monster fort save does not change much on average.

- Giacomo

Malakar
2010-07-28, 12:25 PM
You may wish to reconsider this opinion.
In core, a monk can start out with a stunning fist DC of 16 at level 1 and end at a DC of 34 at level 20 (without any age mods).

That's a fine thing to say, but of course the Monk can have a higher starting DC and progress at the same rate as a Wizard, because he can take ability focus. But of course, he can only target Fort saves, with only stunning, and must first succeed on an attack roll to hit the targets regular AC from melee range.

This puts them at a large disadvantage in stunlocking. While it may be possible to have a DC of 16 at level 1, that requires the cost of an 18 in Wisdom, a substantial cost to someone who also needs Dex/Con/Str in some order more than the Wizard, who only needs Dex/Con, and both of them less so.

Can a Monk with an 18 Wisdom and 14 Str/Dex/Con survive in melee range as well as Wizard can at range? Can he consistently hit the AC of monsters in order to trigger the save?


Assuming linear development, check out the average fort save of CR appropriate core MM monsters for each monk level.

1) Why assume linear progression? We know at what levels the DC increases and by how much.

2) Don't forget that many of those Fort saves are on creatures immune to stunning, which is effectively a +infinity save for the Monk.


Of course, the stunning fist DC can go up quite substantially with non-core rules while I guess that the average noncore monster fort save does not change much on average.

Many things can go up substantially in Non core, but I'm not sure that DCs is actually one of them. a +2 Wis and those two MiC items is a start, but DCs are usually pretty hard capped.

That said, everyone gets more powerful non Core, even monsters, and sources of stun immunity increase as well.


All of the PC races are in the Monster Manual and a Monster made from them advances by class level. Some classes have poor Fortitude saves. Therefore, there are situations where a DM can use a Monster from the Monster Manual and it not have a really high Fort save. Crazy, wild, monsters, like an Elf Rogue.

Yes, 0HD races that have class levels could have bad fort saves. There is a reason I said "Monsters" from the MM. Humanoids are generally not considered in the category of "Monstrous" if they were, you wouldn't have a second type called "Monstrous Humanoids" to differentiate.


There's no need to make a statement about the likelihood of the situation - my whole point is that the situation has already happened, regardless of how unlikely it may be.

Yes, there is a reason to make statements about the likelihood, as they impact what people should choose for future games. Someone wins the lottery quite often, but that doesn't mean that person telling other people to buy lottery tickets is a good idea.


A monk's DC doesn't compare to a wizards DC. I didn't answer that specifically because I figured that was obvious; the wizard beats the monk. I already stated I knew this in my first post on this thread. The point of my post was not about the likelihood of such a game happening, or trying to say that X compares to Y when it clearly doesn't.

Yes, it does compare. See, this is the point. It compares because they are both numbers, and you can compare two numbers even if they aren't identical. I was wondering how they compare. You yourself presented a +5 bonus to Stunning Fist DC that is not available to the Wizard, so I want to know if they are behind, and if they are, how much behind are they at what cost. That would be a comparison.

TroubleBrewing
2010-07-28, 12:29 PM
Too bad you can't devour your enemies' hearts to heal yourself.

Houserule it. Done, by the magic of DM fiat!

Person_Man
2010-07-28, 12:56 PM
Now that would be a cool Monstrous/Vile feat.

Well, there are the Snatch Trophy and Bloodsoaked Intimidate feats (Champions of Ruin). After you deal enough damage to an enemy to drop them to negative hit points, you can cut off a piece of it's body (it doesn't specify what piece) dealing 1d6 points of damage or can take a small item (potion, jewlery, pouch, whatever, which you could then presumably use or wear), as a Free Action. You can then make an Intimidate check against all adjacent opponents as a Swift Action. (A somewhat useful combo when combined with another Fear effect and/or Imperious Command).

I would certainly allow a player to cut out and eat their enemy's heart as part of the Swift Action, and as a house rule it could heal damage equal to the creature's hit dice.

Chambers
2010-07-28, 12:56 PM
Blah. Sorry for my snarkiness.

Here's the comparison: Wizards are better than Monks. I'm not disputing this. Their abilities scale better and are more useful. How many times do I need to say that I know and concede that Wizards are better than Monks?

In regards to the likelihood - the DM should let the players (not the characters) know what kind of game it's going to be. Undead hunting, social diplomacy, dungeon crawl, etc. I don't think it unreasonable for the DM to adjust for the characters abilities. If there's a rogue in the party and the DM only runs creatures immune to sneak attack, that sucks. If there's a monk in the party and the DM only runs creatures with high fort saves, that sucks.

The idea is that not all games are going to have power house parties. Some are lower on the power scale, and in those games when the Wizards isn't Batman (yes, it does happen) and the DM knows the player is running a monk and wants the character to be able to use their cool special abilities, the DM should throw in creatures that are able to be stunned. Is what I'm describing so improbable?

My whole point is that a stunning monk is not an ideal option for most games - but it can be a viable option in some games.

Some Monsters. I looked for Fort saves of under +10.

Dryad.
Ettercap.
Formian.
Genie.
Girallon.
Grick.
Hag.
Harpy.
Five Headed Hydra.
Krenshar.

That's just a few, didn't feel like looking through the whole thing.

Malakar
2010-07-28, 02:22 PM
Your list seems to ignore CR? +20 is low for a CR 20. +9 is really really high for a CR 2.

I'll be happy to go through the Core MM CR by CR against an example Monk.

Chambers
2010-07-28, 02:34 PM
Your list seems to ignore CR? +20 is low for a CR 20. +9 is really really high for a CR 2.

I'll be happy to go through the Core MM CR by CR against an example Monk.

That's not something I'm interested in doing. I was just giving a few examples of monsters, that fit your category of what monsters are, that were in the monster manual and had low fort saves. They are random CR's as I was looking alphabetically. Honestly, I'm kinda done arguing. We've derailed the thread enough.

Runestar
2010-07-28, 06:29 PM
2 warblades with white raven hammer and white raven tactics = stunlock a dragon (or any other solo foe) to victory.

Each takes turns initating white raven tactics on the other (granting him an extra full-round action, which the latter then uses to refresh his maneuvers via adaptive style), hitting the foe with white raven hammer (stunning him), followed by initiating white raven tactics on his ally. Rinse and repeat. :smallbiggrin:

Now, just pray you don't roll a 1. At lv20, they can take weapon supremacy if you splash a lv of fighter (or take aura of perfect law to take 11), so you will always auto-hit foes with AC equal to or lesser than your attack roll+10 or 11. :smallcool:

true_shinken
2010-07-28, 11:00 PM
That's not something I'm interested in doing. I was just giving a few examples of monsters, that fit your category of what monsters are, that were in the monster manual and had low fort saves. They are random CR's as I was looking alphabetically. Honestly, I'm kinda done arguing. We've derailed the thread enough.

You are right, though. Stunning Fist optimization is possible and actually powerful at low tiers.
When people still say 'monks are a MAD class', I just have to ignore them. I mean, they never ever looked up the X stats to Y bonus thread? There are a gazillion ways to focus almost solely on Wis for a Monk.
This whole argument is ridiculous. Can't understand why all the monk haters have to stand up and say 'monks are bad' when people are just saying 'monks are fun'. If you don't like monks, fine. Some people like them. Derailing every single thread in which someone mentions a monk because you want to repeat what people have been saying ever since 3.0 was released is beyond stupid.

Malakar
2010-07-28, 11:35 PM
You are right, though. Stunning Fist optimization is possible and actually powerful at low tiers.
When people still say 'monks are a MAD class', I just have to ignore them. I mean, they never ever looked up the X stats to Y bonus thread? There are a gazillion ways to focus almost solely on Wis for a Monk.
This whole argument is ridiculous. Can't understand why all the monk haters have to stand up and say 'monks are bad' when people are just saying 'monks are fun'. If you don't like monks, fine. Some people like them. Derailing every single thread in which someone mentions a monk because you want to repeat what people have been saying ever since 3.0 was released is beyond stupid.

Sounds to me like you are just looking for a fight. That doesn't characterize anything I've seen in this thread yet.

Keld Denar
2010-07-29, 12:27 AM
I mean, they never ever looked up the X stats to Y bonus thread?

Feat, item, and class level taxes do not a powerful class make.

Sir Giacomo
2010-07-29, 12:34 PM
Feat, item, and class level taxes do not a powerful class make.

But synergies of class abilities with the rest of the game system do make powerful classes ...

- Giacomo

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-07-29, 12:47 PM
But synergies of class abilities with the rest of the game system do make powerful classes ...

- Giacomo

Right, like using Spell Focus (whatever), Ability Focus (Spells), and things like Spell Focus (cold) to get save DCs through the roof do. That or you just resort to things like Force Cage and giggle.