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tcrudisi
2010-07-26, 10:16 PM
I would really like to know what the broken spells in 3.5 are. I'm sure there's a list out there, or a ranking, or something ... but I have no idea where to find it. My knowledge resides in 4e. Just out of curiosity though, if I wanted to create a broken Sorc, Wizard, or Cleric, what spells would I have to take?

Soren Hero
2010-07-26, 10:19 PM
first time post, yea

the thread you want is:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115168

Evard
2010-07-26, 10:46 PM
anything over 5th level? Hmmm

well it depends...if you have a party of wizards then nothing is broken :p haha

SurlySeraph
2010-07-26, 11:11 PM
Depends on the campaign, the situation, and the rest of the party. However, ones to watch out for include:
*All Polymorph effects (but especially Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange)
*Anything that gives extra actions (Celerity, Time Stop)
*Wings of Flurry (basically an automatic "No, that doesn't affect me")
*The Holy Word line (when combined with lots of caster level boosts)
*Venomfire (particularly when used with venomous animal companions, particularly Fleshraker Dinosaurs)
*Anything that denies the opponent actions, especially without a save (e.g. Stun Ray)
*Solid Fog
*Prismatic Sphere
*Forcecage
*The Orb spells (basically make most single-target direct damage spells that came before them irrelevant)
*Assay Resistance ("Spell resistance doesn't work on me")
*Shrink Item (a creative player can make it produce some really weird and really powerful results)

Prodan
2010-07-26, 11:14 PM
*Wings of Flurry (basically an automatic "No, that doesn't affect me")

Not quite.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-07-26, 11:44 PM
Though, incidentally, I would look out for Wings of Flurry. No level-based cap on damage is quite odd, though not exactly overpowered or broken.


*Anything that denies the opponent actions, especially without a save (e.g. Stun Ray)
I'd make that "if without a save", given that this category can be absurdly broad and/or thematically appropriate for a wizard.

ericgrau
2010-07-27, 12:27 AM
The most common ones are:
shivering touch
wraithstrike
orb of X
+1 to assay resistance, wings of flurry cover and probably celerity, though less common

Lots of other strong ones but nothing terribly broken except for this obvious cheese like getting infinite wishes. I don't think players do that and even if they do the DM should notice without making a banlist ahead of time. The Book of Exalted Cheese has some excessively strong spells too, which you can google if you're not sure. Other splatbooks have some too, but while OP these won't necessarily break the game. Even orb of X is borderline. It's mainly an issue at high levels when the SR: no, save: no, touch AC: hahahaha, school: wtf conjuration all become an issue. At lower levels they're not so bad except for the conjuration part.

Shrink item cheese is a little less obvious but as soon as you hear triple d6 falling damage it should likewise be plain without banning it ahead of time. And I think the FAQ disallows it anyway. Holy Word cheese is more from splatbook caster level boosts than the spell itself. Polymorph is mainly a problem when using non-core monsters, ignoring any of the 57 restrictions in the page long PaO (which is based on polymorph (which is based on alter self)) text, or working around the restrictions with things like phase spider magic items bought from the local Magic Mart (TM). It also slows the game down if you don't prepare stats ahead of time. A lot of other spells listed are merely very strong.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-27, 01:11 AM
Not quite.

That'd be Wings of Cover. And it isnt very helpful against AOEs. Still pretty broken for a level 2 spell though.

Also, Power Word kill. At low levels, that and a horse(or the mount spell) is all you need to kill anything.

Tshern
2010-07-27, 01:58 AM
Tyndmyr, you must mean Power word: Pain.

Contact Other Plane is simply a way of asking the DM to hand over his notes hidden in the Vancian system mechanics. I can see that being broken on more levels than one.

WinWin
2010-07-27, 02:04 AM
Gate. Invite your enemies to the party you're hosting on the plane of fire.

Planar Binding. For all of the same reasons as polymorph, but with less action dependancy.

Simulacrum. lol, but fun though.

Awaken. Difference engine abuse

Heroics (especially on an arcane swordsage).

Tshern
2010-07-27, 02:05 AM
Heroics isn't even close to being broken. Why would you seriously bother with Fighter bonus feats? Improved initiative is easily the best and if the Sorcerer/Wizard is not already winning that, he's boned.

Superglucose
2010-07-27, 02:08 AM
The most common ones are:
shivering touch
Powerful, but overstated.


wraithstrike
I hate this spell...


orb of X
Not broken, just in the wrong class. Stick them into Evocation and I'm fine with them tbh.


+1 to assay resistance, wings of flurry cover and probably celerity, though less common

Assay Resistance isn't exactly broken either.

Honestly the major spells to watch out for are Polymorph and its derivatives (Baleful, PAO, Shapechange). The things you can pull with those are absurd.

WinWin
2010-07-27, 02:11 AM
Umm. Arcane Swordsages cast spells as manuevers. That means they can regain heroics as a full round action...And cast it again...and again. That is the easy way to break it.

It is cheap and wand-able. Does a wizard need to cast it to make a fighter feel small in the pants? No. Can a wizard cast it to abuse useless fighter feats like multi weapon fighting and shock trooper? Yes.

JonestheSpy
2010-07-27, 02:17 AM
Contact Other Plane is simply a way of asking the DM to hand over his notes hidden in the Vancian system mechanics. I can see that being broken on more levels than one.

Have you actually read the spell description, by chance?

Tshern
2010-07-27, 02:24 AM
Have you actually read the spell description, by chance?
Have you ever used the spell? Get yourself some decent divination time in the game and Contact Other Plane shenanigans get pretty ridiculous. I wish I still remembered the name of the thread that elaborated on this rather extensively...

WinWin: How does that make the spell broken? You are still picking Fighter feats that are underwhelming in the vast majority of cases.

Lupian
2010-07-27, 02:25 AM
wraithstrike

If a wiz/sorc could combine it with tenser's transformation, they would become something of an improved duskblade for a single round(bad expresion)

Anyway, if a duskblade could use it as a 1st level spell(or at all), they would become one of the game's most broken melee class-"I full attack the dragon and hit him 4 times in a row"- and such stuff.

But since the topic is wizards and other 'full' casters,

Superglucose
2010-07-27, 02:29 AM
AMF. With Extraordinary Spell Aim it becomes stupid. With Master Abj 10 it becomes one of the craziest offensive weapons ever. Screw dispel.

Tshern
2010-07-27, 02:30 AM
If a wiz/sorc could combine it with tenser's transformation, they would become something of an improved duskblade for a single round(bad expresion)
It's a trap!

PId6
2010-07-27, 02:49 AM
Holy Word cheese is more from splatbook caster level boosts than the spell itself.
The biggest one, Beads of Karma, is core. With Beads of Karma and Orange Ioun Stone, you have enough CL to auto-paralyze any enemy that's the same level as you. You can get it even higher if you specialize into Hierophant.


Polymorph is mainly a problem when using non-core monsters
Hydras are core. Also, play an aasimar or tiefling, then look through the list of core outsiders with <= 15 HD. Consider how a 4th level spell can get you 19 Natural Armor, Large size, 50 ft fly speed, 31 Str, 25 Dex, 25 Con, and four natural weapons just by changing into a Horned Devil.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-27, 02:53 AM
Tyndmyr, you must mean Power word: Pain.

Contact Other Plane is simply a way of asking the DM to hand over his notes hidden in the Vancian system mechanics. I can see that being broken on more levels than one.

Ah, yes, thats it. PW: pain.

CoP is potentially powerful, but it's prone to error. If the DM follows the rules closely, it's useful, but not really broken.

Contingency, now that's broken.

WinWin
2010-07-27, 03:40 AM
WinWin: How does that make the spell broken? You are still picking Fighter feats that are underwhelming in the vast majority of cases.

What are the class features of the Fighter? The Wizard can replicate that and more. On himself, to make his polymorph even more effective. On Planar Bound minions, to make them even more effective. On the rest of the party. Unlike the fighter, the wizard is not limited to a small number, nor are they bound to those choices for the rest of their career. The wizard (and his familliar) can become a cavalry charging, spike chain knockdown combat brute with robilars gambit and karmic strike. Or he can just spam glitterdust from a wand, whatever. Heroics is broken because the spell reproduces the entire schtick of a class. A second level spell.

To add to the list.

Astral Projection. Save game & item duplication.

Consumptive field. Persisted, because you can.

Tshern
2010-07-27, 04:07 AM
What are the class features of the Fighter? The Wizard can replicate that and more. On himself, to make his polymorph even more effective. On Planar Bound minions, to make them even more effective. On the rest of the party. Unlike the fighter, the wizard is not limited to a small number, nor are they bound to those choices for the rest of their career. The wizard (and his familliar) can become a cavalry charging, spike chain knockdown combat brute with robilars gambit and karmic strike. Or he can just spam glitterdust from a wand, whatever. Heroics is broken because the spell reproduces the entire schtick of a class. A second level spell.
And what crappy class features they are. Would it break the game if Wizard acquired the limited TWF of the Samurai? No, it wouldn't. Wizards have much more effective ways to dominate the game as a melee monster if they find the need.

I agree about Astral projection though. Free items, immunity to death and all? The best part is you can get it with Planar binding!

Eldan
2010-07-27, 04:09 AM
I'd also watch out with Genesis. While it's not strictly core, it's in the SRD, so people have access to it. It lets you create your own plane, which in itself probably isn't that broken. However, smart players tend to realize that they can, potentially, include planar traits such as sped-up time or simplified magic, resulting in players which can, in danger, plane shift to their own plane, cast 200 buff spells, shift back one material-plane-turn later and go to town.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-27, 04:16 AM
Streamers, Maw of Chaos.

Heroics isn't even a blip on the broke-o-meter. It's a means of trading your power, your spells per day, for sorta emulating a vastly weaker class. One which your base attack bonus and stat distribution is not well suited for.

Now, in conjunction with polymorph, it might be mildly handy...but its not the powerful part of that combo. Polymorph is the big one. Especially PaO. Thats reasonably broken.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-27, 04:20 AM
Astral Projection. Or, if your DM is a big stickler about those silver cords, Astral Projection + Contingent (Your favorite resurrection spell here.)

Killer Angel
2010-07-27, 04:21 AM
Contingency, now that's broken.

Contingency as in Core is powerful but not broken: it can save you if it meets the conditions, which is not certain.
Sadly, it gave the basic idea for the Craft Contingent Spell, aka "Now, I'm invulnerable!" :smallyuk:

Lupian
2010-07-27, 04:45 AM
If a wiz/sorc could combine it with tenser's transformation, they would become something of an improved duskblade for a single round(bad expresion)

It's a trap!

Yea, I forgot Tenser's transforamtion quite sucks, useful(hardly) only to these poor guys who aren't smart enough to polymorph.

Although a horned devil form affected that way CAN be funny....
...hmmm....

Last time I checked(didn't read it all), MIRACLE can copy any spell from level 7 or below. Bwahaha. no xp cost, unlike wish(broken too, but less).

Superglucose
2010-07-27, 05:23 AM
Last time I checked(didn't read it all), MIRACLE can copy any spell from level 7 or below. Bwahaha. no xp cost, unlike wish(broken too, but less).
Silent Image heightened to 10th level to get access to a 130% real Miracle spell to make Divine Power for your wizard.

That's how a Wizard casts Tenser's Transformation :smallamused:

(I just wish it gave me +8 STR and a BAB of 26 :smallbiggrin:)

Frog Dragon
2010-07-27, 05:31 AM
Silent Image heightened to 10th level to get access to a 130% real Miracle spell to make Divine Power for your wizard.
How does this trick even work? :smallconfused:

Psyx
2010-07-27, 06:12 AM
No mention of Greater Mighty Wallop yet?

Protection from Evil/whatever is frighteningly good for it's level.


No mention yet for Ray of Clumsiness or Ray of Stupidity, either?

Eldariel
2010-07-27, 06:21 AM
How does this trick even work? :smallconfused:

Basic Shadowcraft Mage. Though you don't even need Miracle (through Arcane Disciple, which is arguable); DP is an Evocation so you can replicate it outright.

Tshern
2010-07-27, 07:37 AM
No mention of Greater Mighty Wallop yet?
There is a reason for that.

Also, Ray of Clumsiness gives a penalty, so can't be used to reduce anyone to 0, which sucks.

Eldan
2010-07-27, 07:40 AM
Basic Shadowcraft Mage. Though you don't even need Miracle (through Arcane Disciple, which is arguable); DP is an Evocation so you can replicate it outright.

To elaborate on that:
Shadow *school* spells create X% quasi-real spells.
Shadowcraft mage increases X, and allows you to use other spells to emulate shadow *school*, and to copy spells one level lower than the spell slot you are using.
Therefore, you can use heighten spell to copy spells of any level.
With some more feats which increase X, you can get spells which are more than 100 percent real.

Therefore, you use one spell to copy, and in the process improve, every spell out there.

Lans
2010-07-27, 08:42 AM
At level 0 launch bolt is pretty broken, 4d6 damage for a 0th level spell.

tcrudisi
2010-07-27, 10:05 AM
Realizing that I haven't played 3.5 in a long time (and therefore my knowledge is slipping away), I'm really wondering about Astral Projection: I've heard some people say that it's being used to make yourself unkillable and duplicate items? How does that work?

Also, I appreciate the feedback guys -- it's kinda funny how few of these spells I ever used. Polymorph is one I always wanted to use but never could figure out how it worked (like what do you actually get?). And does Alter Self give you the same thing as Polymorph?

Draz74
2010-07-27, 10:14 AM
Streamers has only been mentioned once, and it deserves to be mentioned in every post. :smallyuk:

I was also planning to mention Ray of Stupidity if no one else had. Against some opponents, it's not so bad (unless put in Wand form and abused by a Factotum with too many Fonts of Inspiration), but against some monsters it surely breaks the game. Why, oh, why couldn't it have the same sensible limitations as Ray of Enfeeblement/Clumsiness?


Contingency as in Core is powerful but not broken: it can save you if it meets the conditions, which is not certain.
Meh, I'd say Contingency is still mildly broken, in the same sense as Iron Heart Surge (i.e. the "written too ambiguously" kind of broken). It really should have more details about what is and isn't a valid triggering condition, or how much the spell "knows" about its caster's condition.


At level 0 launch bolt is pretty broken, 4d6 damage for a 0th level spell.
Yeah, I'll worry about that next time I play at Level 0. :smallwink:

PId6
2010-07-27, 10:15 AM
Realizing that I haven't played 3.5 in a long time (and therefore my knowledge is slipping away), I'm really wondering about Astral Projection: I've heard some people say that it's being used to make yourself unkillable and duplicate items? How does that work?
After you cast it, you get a duplicate of your entire party on the Astral Plane. After that, just travel back to the Prime Material (or wherever) and adventure as normal with those duplicates. It specifically creates copies of your equipment, so you can splurge on charges and one-use items all you want, and if the copy dies, you just go back to your body, no harm done.


Polymorph is one I always wanted to use but never could figure out how it worked (like what do you actually get?). And does Alter Self give you the same thing as Polymorph?
Polymorph gives you the size, natural armor, extraordinary movement speeds, natural weapons, extraordinary special attacks, and physical ability scores of the creature you turn into (with a few random other things that are less important).

Alter Self only gives size, movement speeds, natural armor, and natural weapons of the form you transform into, and it's more limited in both types of creatures you can change into (only your own type) and the HD limit (max 5 HD).

JaronK
2010-07-27, 01:38 PM
I don't understand why the Orb spells keep getting mentioned here... they're just reasonably solid (but not even that amazing) blast spells. Yes, they're better than the really bad blast spells, but who cares? A decent Archer should be able to replicate this kind of damage at the appropriate level anyway.

As for Polymorph and Alter Self, IIRC one of those gives racial bonus feat (Alter Self I believe) so you can actually get a human bonus feat for 10 minutes/level starting at level 3. That's awfully handy at times when you want another metamagic. The Polymorph line starts powerful (Alter Self) and ends up broken (Shapechange) and certainly doesn't require leaving core to get ugly. Shapechanging into a Solar gives you full access to the Cleric list, for example.

Genesis, as mentioned earlier, gets the award for most broken spell in existence, though it's SRD but not core, and it doesn't happen until 9th level. Planar Binding is of course on the list (Efreetis!) and so is Gate for similar reasons.

Fabricate deserves a mention... you can turn metal you find into very valuable items (Suslean Chainweave Mechanicus Gear, for example?) and sell it, thereby getting huge amounts of money (the above sells for about 15kgp).

And yeah, Astral Projection's whole "I can now use one use items repeatedly, and can't die" issue is nuts.

Summon Mirror Mephit, a level 2 spell from Expedition to Demonweb, is insane. Free simulacrums at level 3? Are you serious?

JaronK

ericgrau
2010-07-27, 02:38 PM
The biggest one, Beads of Karma, is core. With Beads of Karma and Orange Ioun Stone, you have enough CL to auto-paralyze any enemy that's the same level as you. You can get it even higher if you specialize into Hierophant.
Bead of karma isn't core. You need to buy the whole strand, it isn't cheap, and lasts 10 minutes. It's a fairly expensive one off. You can't even get the single bead custom made; you have to get a used strand where some idiot removed and destroyed every bead except karma and then sold it at the magic mart. Any sane DM should say "lol no".

The ioun stone is also very expensive and only a +1, making it okay for high level play. Hierophant does not advance spell levels, so it's a major trade-off. The non-core stuff is what might give you flat always active caster levels for a minimal trade-off.


Hydras are core.
And only give 1 attack per alter self text. More if you have a high BAB, but not 1 per head. See above on not reading all the 57 restrictions. And even allowing all the attacks it's a little OP, but not the end of the world.

The utility uses of polymorph are quite nice, along with minor stat uses like AC, but it's not game breaking. There are sometimes drawbacks compared to alternatives like duration. But neither the drawbacks nor added gain are incredible. Polymorph is a very good utility (or other clever use) spell; it's the non-utility uses that weren't originally intended for it that lead to brokenness.

WinWin
2010-07-27, 02:41 PM
Power Leech. Chained and Persisted on summoned monsters for one hell of an enhancement bonus. Even just Chained it is a CL squared enhancement to a stat for a couple of hours.

Loves Pain.

dextercorvia
2010-07-27, 02:51 PM
Bead of karma isn't core. You need to buy the whole strand,

I'm not sure why you are saying this. Also note, 45,800-9000-16,800=20,000 so there is no inherent value in the strand, only the beads it contains.


Strand of Prayer Beads

<snip>

A lesser strand of prayer beads has a bead of blessing and a bead of healing. A strand of prayer beads has a bead of healing, a bead of karma, and a bead of smiting. A greater strand of prayer beads has a bead of healing, a bead of karma, a bead of summons, and a bead of wind walking.

<snip>

The power of a special bead is lost if it is removed from the strand. Reduce the price of a strand of prayer beads that is missing one or more beads by the following amounts: <snip> bead of healing -9,000 gp, bead of karma -20,000 gp, bead of smiting -16,800 gp, <snip.

Price 9,600 gp (lesser), 45,800 gp (standard), 95,800 gp (greater).

ericgrau
2010-07-27, 02:54 PM
Uh huh, and who had the strand before the PC and was dumb enough to remove all those other beads? See rest of post, maybe you missed final edits; I tend to do that. If anything I could imagine someone remove the best bead as he says, "This bead has a cool power, you keep the strand and lemme have that one. Uh oh, it's not working..."

WinWin
2010-07-27, 03:03 PM
Couple of other spells broken by Chaining.

Phantasmal Thief.

Magic Jar.

Broken by metamagic.

Locate City.

PId6
2010-07-27, 03:06 PM
Bead of karma isn't core. You need to buy the whole strand, it isn't cheap, and lasts 10 minutes. It's a fairly expensive one off. You can't even get the single bead custom made; you have to get a used strand where some idiot removed and destroyed every bead except karma and then sold it at the magic mart. Any sane DM should say "lol no".
Craft Wondrous Items, 9th level, Righteous Might. There you go, Beads of Karma for 10,000 gp. And 10 minutes is more than enough time to off one or two roomfuls of baddies with one spell, no save.


And only give 1 attack per alter self text. More if you have a high BAB, but not 1 per head.
Would you like to quote the text on it? I can't seem to find the restriction you're talking about. If you mean the extra limbs do not grant extra attacks part, a head is not a limb.

Sir Giacomo
2010-07-27, 03:17 PM
In support of ericgrau here.

Plus, the astral projection double item copy trick does not work, since
- wbl guidelines should ensure that you do not get double wealth for an extended time period (or you leave the wealth behind, meaning it does not matter for the adventure that you use astral projection for)
- astral projection projects you away from the prime material plane (where the action is most of the times). A plane shift back to the prime material plane might work, but the RAW of the astral projection spell could reasonably interpreted by a DM to not allow this.
- leaves your bodies possibly unprotected/less protected on the prime material plane (evil DM grin when party uses the spell to journey indefinintely, feeling "safe")

Again, it is the non-core spells which open the way for truly broken stuff (those allowing extra actions/immediate actions being the worst).

Core spells are largely appropriate for the levels they come up, I'd say.

- Giacomo

WinWin
2010-07-27, 03:24 PM
In support of ericgrau here.

Plus, the astral projection double item copy trick does not work, since
- wbl guidelines should ensure that you do not get double wealth for an extended time period (or you leave the wealth behind, meaning it does not matter for the adventure that you use astral projection for)
- astral projection projects you away from the prime material plane (where the action is most of the times). A plane shift back to the prime material plane might work, but the RAW of the astral projection spell could reasonably interpreted by a DM to not allow this.
- leaves your bodies possibly unprotected/less protected on the prime material plane (evil DM grin when party uses the spell to journey indefinintely, feeling "safe")

Again, it is the non-core spells which open the way for truly broken stuff (those allowing extra actions/immediate actions being the worst).

Core spells are largely appropriate for the levels they come up, I'd say.

- Giacomo

False. WBL beomes meaningless long before casters have 9's, using that as an argument for why AP does not work is diningenuous at best. As for travelling to the prime while Projected, what is the RAW for casting the spell while not on the Prime?

Your point about bodies unprotected is worth noting, but a caster with this spell is likely to take action to prevent this, no? The DM may as well have random Githyanki come out of nowhere and sever the silver cord.

edit: The most broken stuff build upon things in core. Druid 20? Cleric 20? Wizard 20? Do they need splatbooks to break the game? I can think of about 4 infinite loops in core alone. Splat support just adds a little variety.

Tshern
2010-07-27, 03:25 PM
Core spells are largely appropriate for the levels they come up, I'd say.

- Giacomo
Apart from the huge bunch of utterly ridiculous spells.

Sir Giacomo
2010-07-27, 03:37 PM
False. WBL beomes meaningless long before casters have 9's, using that as an argument for why AP does not work is diningenuous at best. As for travelling to the prime while Projected, what is the RAW for casting the spell while not on the Prime?

False. WBL never becomes meaningless. It is a major balancing tool for the DM, as per the DMG.
And, by the text of the astral projection spell it is apparently not intended to be cast from somewhere else but from the prime material plane ("...leaving your physical body behind on the material plane...") etc..


Your point about bodies unprotected is worth noting, but a caster with this spell is likely to take action to prevent this, no? The DM may as well have random Githyanki come out of nowhere and sever the silver cord.

I'd think the rules for dealing with incorporal things like the astral chord are enough to offer hooks for a DM intending to see that astral travel CAN be dangerous. And a caster can only do so much to protect lifeless bodies, in particular in those levels.


edit: The most broken stuff build upon things in core. Druid 20? Cleric 20? Wizard 20? Do they need splatbooks to break the game? I can think of about 4 infinite loops in core alone. Splat support just adds a little variety.

Infinite loops do not work without DM's agreement, as all put down in the rules.
But I'll not argue further here. Need to devote my time to some nice duel not altogether unrelated to this thread....:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Prodan
2010-07-27, 03:42 PM
Your sermon is ill preach'd.

Superglucose
2010-07-27, 03:44 PM
And only give 1 attack per alter self text. More if you have a high BAB, but not 1 per head. See above on not reading all the 57 restrictions. And even allowing all the attacks it's a little OP, but not the end of the world.

Polymorph != Alter Self, not by a long shot. Here's what you get with polymorph:

"The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. "

So a buff that's basically (at level seven) giving you immunity to fire, +11 str, +2 con, and 14 attacks in a round (hi, familiar and share spell!) is only a little op for a level 4 spell?

What makes it even more fun is the fact that this?

"These reddish hydras can breathe jets of fire 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 20 feet long. All heads breathe once every 1d4 rounds. Each jet deals 3d6 points of fire damage per head. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. The save DC is 10 + ˝ hydra’s original number of heads + hydra’s Con modifier."

That is not a "breath weapon," nor is it supernatural or spell-like from the SRD text. That means it works in an AMF, but even more? You get it from Polymorph. Forget "fireball" (7d6! Yaaay!), use Polymorph. Once every d4 rounds you get to fire 42d6 fire. Or cold, if you want, just turn into a cryo-hydra instead.

Prodan
2010-07-27, 03:50 PM
- leaves your bodies possibly unprotected/less protected on the prime material plane (evil DM grin when party uses the spell to journey indefinintely, feeling "safe")


Solution: Leave your inert bodies with an honorable monastic order of monks, who will surely be able to protect your mortal vessels from any and every threat.

Or just carry your bodies around in Bags of Holding if you want to be practical about it.

Eldariel
2010-07-27, 03:59 PM
False. WBL never becomes meaningless. It is a major balancing tool for the DM, as per the DMG.
And, by the text of the astral projection spell it is apparently not intended to be cast from somewhere else but from the prime material plane ("...leaving your physical body behind on the material plane...") etc..

WBL is a guideline, not a rule.

WinWin
2010-07-27, 04:00 PM
False. WBL never becomes meaningless. It is a major balancing tool for the DM, as per the DMG.
And, by the text of the astral projection spell it is apparently not intended to be cast from somewhere else but from the prime material plane ("...leaving your physical body behind on the material plane...") etc..


Planar bind an Efreet. Begin the wish loop.

Simulacrum of the Efreet. Continue the wish loop.

Wish for a candle of invocation. Wish loops for everyone.

How does WBL factor into this? From a purely RAW standpoint? From a RAI standpoint? From a Gygaxian "the players must learn" standpoint? Replace the Efreet with a Luckblade found in a treasure hoard and answer the same questions. Or a ring of three wishes. Or a scroll of Wish.

Secondly. Astral projection is available after the PC's have access to plane shift. The entire point of the spell is to facillitate planar travel. Do you think that it was intended to only be used from the Prime?