PDA

View Full Version : Druid vs. Wizard



WarKitty
2010-07-26, 10:58 PM
Yeah, I got into that debate with my DM. Assuming all sources are allowed, in a one-on-one fight between a druid and wizard at each of levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, who would win? Would it be a knock-down either way?

Prodan
2010-07-26, 11:00 PM
Depends on what sources are allowed, but generally I'd say 50/50 odds.

AtopTheMountain
2010-07-26, 11:02 PM
Depends on what sources are allowed, but generally I'd say 50/50 odds.


Assuming all sources are allowed,
Filler text.

Kylarra
2010-07-26, 11:04 PM
Either side can just pun-pun so... yeah, you're going to need more limitations than just level brackets.

LibraryOgre
2010-07-26, 11:06 PM
In general, I would weight this towards the wizard, especially after level 7. At levels 7+, he can use the Globes of Invulnerability to shut down the druid's magical offense, and use his own spells with relative impunity (as the druid doesn't have many defenses against them).

Not saying that no druid would ever beat a wizard, but the wizard has some hard-to-overcome advantages.

WarKitty
2010-07-26, 11:11 PM
Either side can just pun-pun so... yeah, you're going to need more limitations than just level brackets.

Ok, I think the only other limitation is going to be "no obvious cheese." Try to use things that are at least roughly within the intent of the rules.

cupkeyk
2010-07-26, 11:15 PM
Since the op mentioned it, a level 5 druid has no actual chance against a level 5 wizard.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-26, 11:19 PM
Well, a druid and wizard both contribute about the same to a party, but I think a Wizard is better duelist than a Druid.

Flickerdart
2010-07-26, 11:22 PM
Until about level 5, Druid has the upper hand simply due to his Animal Companion. The Wizard doesn't have enough slots to deal with a powerful beatstick effectively. By the time the Druid can turn into a beatstick himself and summon more beatsticks, the Wizard's spell slots are being filled with useful things, so it's about 50/50. After level 10 or so, the Druid starts to drop away as spells become king of the game, and the Wizard's spells simply outdo his.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-26, 11:34 PM
Until about level 5, Druid has the upper hand simply due to his Animal Companion. The Wizard doesn't have enough slots to deal with a powerful beatstick effectively. By the time the Druid can turn into a beatstick himself and summon more beatsticks, the Wizard's spell slots are being filled with useful things, so it's about 50/50. After level 10 or so, the Druid starts to drop away as spells become king of the game, and the Wizard's spells simply outdo his.

+1 basically

Schylerwalker
2010-07-26, 11:37 PM
If the druid prepared Death Ward: Greater Dispel Magic + Energy Drain and Enervation spams

Otherwise, Energy Drain and Enervation spams

And that's just being really simple.

Yukitsu
2010-07-26, 11:45 PM
Druids are going to win up to about 10, with pushes up to 20 if both players are fairly green. If both players are very good optimizers, the wizard will win from 5-20 without too much difficulty.

Simply put, a druid starts with a very strong toolkit, but they don't have many fancy power tools to add to their box. The only really good PRC is the planar shepherd, which automatically falls under "obvious cheese." and the only really great druid feat is the essential natural spell, while a wizard can get a PRC and abilities just under the obvious cheese level and win.

Defiant
2010-07-26, 11:47 PM
Ok, I think the only other limitation is going to be "no obvious cheese." Try to use things that are at least roughly within the intent of the rules.

There's "cheese" and then there's "unplayable" (such as pun-pun, infinite gating, etc.).

What level of cheese restriction are we talking about here? Is Incantatrix cheese? Is arcane thesis with a bunch of +0 metamagic feats (to use as -1 offsetting better metamagics) cheese?


If the druid prepared Death Ward: Greater Dispel Magic + Energy Drain and Enervation spams

Otherwise, Energy Drain and Enervation spams

And that's just being really simple.

Exactly. And not just enervation... thesis'ed enervation from hell.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-27, 12:15 AM
Unless I'm mistaken Arcane Thesis can't go below +0 after the errata.

Superglucose
2010-07-27, 12:20 AM
Depends on what sources are allowed, but generally I'd say 50/50 odds.

Starting at level 15 the Druid suddenly can't compete. Period.

At level 10 it's pretty even.

At 1 and 5, Druid will win most of the time.

Hell, I'd say that core-only the Druid would have a tough time... but here's the thing: a 'zard can Shape an AMF around himself.

Of course if we include planar shepherd... I'd still say 'zard. 'Zard can win on the opening round... I was buidling a 3.0 incantatrix build that, from a 5th level slot, was firing a split-ray, maximized, empowered enervation for no-save lose 12 levels. Druid can't throw around that kind of power. Then we upgrade to 3.5 incantatrix (lolstupidclass) and Druid is in all sorts of trouble. Even in planar shepherd, there's just not enough time for Mr. Druid to get his tricks off.

Kylarra
2010-07-27, 12:26 AM
Unless I'm mistaken Arcane Thesis can't go below +0 after the errata.Total adjustment, yes, but that doesn't stop abusing +0 metas in order to obviate the costs of other metamagics. Admittedly, that would fall under "obvious cheese" for me, but YMMV.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-27, 12:33 AM
Total adjustment, yes, but that doesn't stop abusing +0 metas in order to obviate the costs of other metamagics. Admittedly, that would fall under "obvious cheese" for me, but YMMV.

Wow, totally missed that.

Superglucose
2010-07-27, 12:37 AM
Total adjustment, yes, but that doesn't stop abusing +0 metas in order to obviate the costs of other metamagics. Admittedly, that would fall under "obvious cheese" for me, but YMMV.
Some people interpret that differently from what I remember.

If it's true I'd have my spell at 4th level not 5th XD

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-27, 12:50 AM
Some people interpret that differently from what I remember.

If it's true I'd have my spell at 4th level not 5th XD

Pretty cut and dry now that I re-read it.


Page 74 – Arcane Thesis [Omission]
Add the following text to the end of the “Benefit”
section: “A spell cannot be reduced to below its
original level with the use of this feat.”


Some people interpret that differently from what I remember.

If it's true I'd have my spell at 4th level not 5th XD

Feats:
Twin Spell
Split Ray
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell
Invisible Spell
Sanctum Spell
Ocular Spell
Easy (Or practical) Metamagic: Twin Spell
Easy (Or practical) Metamagic: Quicken Spell
Easy (Or practical) Metamagic: Maximize Spell
Metamagic School Focus: Necromancy
Arcane Thesis: Enervation

First Round:

2x Enervation from Ocular spells in your eyes (48 Negative Levels):
Level 4
Ocular Spell +0
Split Ray +0
Maximize Spell +0
Empower Spell +0
Invisible Spell -1
Twin Spell +1
Total Level: Level 4

1x Quickened Enervation (24 Negative Levels):
Level 4
Ocular Spell +0
Split Ray +0
Maximize Spell +0
Empower Spell +0
Invisible Spell -1
Sanctum Spell -1
Quicken Spell +1
Twin Spell +1
Total Level: Level 4

Total Negative Levels in the first round: 72

You can grab more in the second round without casting another spell if you pop on repeat spell.

Superglucose
2010-07-27, 12:54 AM
Just telling you what I see many GMs say :smallsmile:

And this 72 negative levels is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what a prepared Wizard could do. My favorite trick is to throw on a delicious Extra. Spell Aim'd AMF on yourself, flip into a Balor, and go hug someone to death.

Eronai_Jantig
2010-07-27, 01:01 AM
I wouldn't blame them for houseruling something like that, I think the simple change from not letting metamagics go below +0 themselves would work pretty well. Still allowing some cheese, but not outrageous applications.

As far as what you said, yeah, it's more of a preferential thing, my last character I got to play was a gish who Shapechanged into a solar, so recently I've been TOing blasty characters for slightly more fun, the Damage output on the last character was okay, but we had a charger so I wasn't quite putting out as much damage as him, plus my Opti-fu wasn't as great as it could have been.

Tshern
2010-07-27, 02:02 AM
At the lowest levels the Druids have a slight advantage when it comes to saves due to the excellent wisdom and constitution synergies combined with good progressions of both will and fortitude save. Before the Wizard gets magical defenses against fortitude targeting spells, the Druids can still pose a threat with magical offense even though the Wizard list is, generally speaking, better. Apart from that, the outcome will be very similar to a Wizard facing a Fighter, although the Druid lasts a lot longer and has a chance of scoring a surprise victory.

Superglucose
2010-07-27, 02:06 AM
At the lowest levels the Druids have a slight advantage when it comes to saves due to the excellent wisdom and constitution synergies combined with good progressions of both will and fortitude save. Before the Wizard gets magical defenses against fortitude targeting spells, the Druids can still pose a threat with magical offense even though the Wizard list is, generally speaking, better. Apart from that, the outcome will be very similar to a Wizard facing a Fighter, although the Druid lasts a lot longer and has a chance of scoring a surprise victory.
Dude... what? Wizards can get pretty good fort saves. Pick a Rat familiar and it's like you picked a good fort class for the early levels.

Then in med to high levels, you're a wizard!

Tshern
2010-07-27, 02:29 AM
Dude... what? Wizards can get pretty good fort saves. Pick a Rat familiar and it's like you picked a good fort class for the early levels.

Then in med to high levels, you're a wizard!
They definitely can, I am not arguing against that. However, I personally tend to pick flying familiars at lower levels, because of the awesome utility value. What I meant was that Druids are likely to have better saves at lower levels than Wizards, which might give them a chance of winning. Of course, the Druid has to hope the Wizards don't get the initiative (Nerveskitter, I am looking at you!).

At higher levels the an optimized Wizard is bound to have pretty astonishing saving throws.

Hope this clarified my stance a bit.

Superglucose
2010-07-27, 02:34 AM
oh, don't worry, wizard loses HARD at low levels XD That animal companion really hurts.

Tshern
2010-07-27, 04:05 AM
oh, don't worry, wizard loses HARD at low levels XD That animal companion really hurts.
The animal companion can be taken down with a Colour spray or something. Then it's up for the Druid to come up with something to deal with the Wizard.

Superglucose
2010-07-27, 04:21 AM
At level 1 it can be as simple as Entangle -> pew with Produce Flame.

Tshern
2010-07-27, 04:59 AM
At level 1 it can be as simple as Entangle -> pew with Produce Flame.
Precisely.

grimbold
2010-07-27, 05:16 AM
at low levels the druid and his animal companion would most definitly win. At high levels the wizard would be like disintegrate or finger o' death and that would be it. so lvls 5-10 druid 15/20 wizard by far.

Superglucose
2010-07-27, 05:19 AM
I think my point is that at low levels it doesn't really matter who wins initiative, because the wizard has to down the AC first or will lose the match horribly, and doesn't have the capability to go toe-to-toe against a druid. For your consideration, my level 4 druid has a will save of +9 and a fort save of +7. Grease is pretty much a mage's only resort, but with my Animal Companion as she is, the mage has to take her down first because the mage will have a hard time dealing with 1d6+4 + trip at +8 to attack without abusing Alter Self.

Even if the wizard did abuse alter self that means I get precombat buffs of my choice as well, and I'll probably go Bull's Strength so the wizard's 20ish AC will be met by my dog's +10ish to attack. Without that abuse; however, if I win initiative I can start summoning a crocodile while the wizard takes care of the dog. Then the wizard gets to fight that mean grapple check.

At level 10 I'd say it starts to even out (level 5-10 sucks probably the most for the wizard... two deinonychus charge the face off the little guy and from experience, it's rough surviving the charge of a single leopard at that level). Well, level 7, because Polymorph is stupid broke, but once the wizard hits his 5th level spells his casting really starts to shine over the Druid's. Excluding Baleful Polymorph (for obvious reasons) at this point it's a battle of a Druid's "Fire Wall" and a Wizard's "Wall of Force." Plus, iirc, Lesser Planar Binding has some insane cheese attatched to it.

With PrCs in I'm afraid it gets much worse for Druids at this level. Druids usually have to give up either wildshape or spellcasting, neither of which is good for a druid of this level without access to Shapechange. Wizards, on the other hand, can have a couple levels of, say, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil which gives them added defense. Also I don't think Druids, not even with Planar Shepherd, can ever really come back onto the same plane as a Wizard. Wizards get top dog for Core classes, for sure.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-27, 05:23 AM
Unless I'm mistaken Arcane Thesis can't go below +0 after the errata.

Total adjustment, that's correct. But slapping on half a dozen metamagics for a total of a +0 adjustment is still frigging awesome.

With any optimization, wizard ends up winning. Typically in one round. All caster vs caster duels end up being rocket tag, though.

For instance, the weakest level for the wizard, level 1, can be solved by color spray. Fell drained magic missiles are also an "I win on my init" move. Power Word: Pain is slower, but is also certain death. Casting and running isn't always a bad tactic.

Tshern
2010-07-27, 05:47 AM
I think my point is that at low levels it doesn't really matter who wins initiative, because the wizard has to down the AC first or will lose the match horribly, and doesn't have the capability to go toe-to-toe against a druid. For your consideration, my level 4 druid has a will save of +9 and a fort save of +7. Grease is pretty much a mage's only resort, but with my Animal Companion as she is, the mage has to take her down first because the mage will have a hard time dealing with 1d6+4 + trip at +8 to attack without abusing Alter Self.
This around the same image I have, although the animal companion is mostly a time-waster for the Wizard more than a serious threat. I mean, sure, the AC can kill the Wizard if he just stands around, but a single spell can negate the companion. But then there's of course the Druid to still worry about and, on average, the Wizard ought to be knee-deep in manure at that point.


Even if the wizard did abuse alter self that means I get precombat buffs of my choice as well, and I'll probably go Bull's Strength so the wizard's 20ish AC will be met by my dog's +10ish to attack. Without that abuse; however, if I win initiative I can start summoning a crocodile while the wizard takes care of the dog. Then the wizard gets to fight that mean grapple check.
Agreed.


At level 10 I'd say it starts to even out (level 5-10 sucks probably the most for the wizard... two deinonychus charge the face off the little guy and from experience, it's rough surviving the charge of a single leopard at that level). Well, level 7, because Polymorph is stupid broke, but once the wizard hits his 5th level spells his casting really starts to shine over the Druid's. Excluding Baleful Polymorph (for obvious reasons) at this point it's a battle of a Druid's "Fire Wall" and a Wizard's "Wall of Force." Plus, iirc, Lesser Planar Binding has some insane cheese attatched to it.
Level six is also pretty friendly for the Druid with Natural spell and a few tasty flying Wild shape forms.


With PrCs in I'm afraid it gets much worse for Druids at this level. Druids usually have to give up either wildshape or spellcasting, neither of which is good for a druid of this level without access to Shapechange. Wizards, on the other hand, can have a couple levels of, say, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil which gives them added defense. Also I don't think Druids, not even with Planar Shepherd, can ever really come back onto the same plane as a Wizard. Wizards get top dog for Core classes, for sure.
Planar Shepherd has some absolutely ridiculous tricks, but that's like assuming Wizard would be pulling of infinite Wish shenanigans and whatnot. That is to say, not worth a debate.

All in all, it seems we are in agreement here, right?

Eldariel
2010-07-27, 06:15 AM
I think my point is that at low levels it doesn't really matter who wins initiative, because the wizard has to down the AC first or will lose the match horribly, and doesn't have the capability to go toe-to-toe against a druid. For your consideration, my level 4 druid has a will save of +9 and a fort save of +7. Grease is pretty much a mage's only resort, but with my Animal Companion as she is, the mage has to take her down first because the mage will have a hard time dealing with 1d6+4 + trip at +8 to attack without abusing Alter Self.

Even if the wizard did abuse alter self that means I get precombat buffs of my choice as well, and I'll probably go Bull's Strength so the wizard's 20ish AC will be met by my dog's +10ish to attack. Without that abuse; however, if I win initiative I can start summoning a crocodile while the wizard takes care of the dog. Then the wizard gets to fight that mean grapple check.

At level 10 I'd say it starts to even out (level 5-10 sucks probably the most for the wizard... two deinonychus charge the face off the little guy and from experience, it's rough surviving the charge of a single leopard at that level). Well, level 7, because Polymorph is stupid broke, but once the wizard hits his 5th level spells his casting really starts to shine over the Druid's. Excluding Baleful Polymorph (for obvious reasons) at this point it's a battle of a Druid's "Fire Wall" and a Wizard's "Wall of Force." Plus, iirc, Lesser Planar Binding has some insane cheese attatched to it.

Planar Bindings make you free servants. That's pretty much it. That said, Druid has some things going on for it: Rashemi Elemental Summoning really picks off in the mid-levels, and Greenbound Summoning absolutely rocks the early ones. Divine caster level is quite easy to boost (Ankh of Ascension, Beads of Karma, etc.) which leads to Druid probably having a slight edge in that regard, and Druids have access to some nice spells with CL variables like Control Winds, Giant Vermin and so on.

This should also give Druid a slight edge at Dispel wars on level 11 (when GDM becomes available) if Wizard is not a Master Specialist Abjurer, though Lesser Planar Binding is pretty huge. Still, e.g. Tornado + GDM on Heart of Water; the Tornado will do a decent job disrupting spellcasting with the constant 6d6, "violent motion" and save DC (on this level elevated by Owl's Insight combined with the CL boosters for ~+10 Wis).


On level 7, Druid's Enhanced Wildshape is also capable of keeping up with Polymorph while working all day. In fact, it can often be stronger thanks to getting all Ex abilities and lasting hours per level, offering some key options. Feats exist to expand the options, notably offering Aberration Wildshape and Dragon Wildshape with some nice Ex abilities to add to the list of Animals and Plants.

Wizard certainly has game on 10-11, but I don't think it's quite a foregone conclusion yet. Battlemagic Perception, Contingency, Celerity and company muddy the waters on that side too.


With PrCs in I'm afraid it gets much worse for Druids at this level. Druids usually have to give up either wildshape or spellcasting, neither of which is good for a druid of this level without access to Shapechange. Wizards, on the other hand, can have a couple levels of, say, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil which gives them added defense. Also I don't think Druids, not even with Planar Shepherd, can ever really come back onto the same plane as a Wizard. Wizards get top dog for Core classes, for sure.

Planar Shepherd will rule over Wizard that has not abused loops to acquire access to higher level spells ahead of schedule for quite some time simply by virtue of having pretty much every spell in the game as a Su or an SLA, along with uncounterable Super Time Stops, access to Shapechange on level 10 and so on. Planar Shepherd is Tier 0 for a reason.

Once level 9 spells come into play, Planar Shepherd still has the edge that all his spells are uncounterable and many are undispellable and he has infinite castings of them all day and many are more powerful than the Wizard's and his Simulacrums, Wishes and Gates don't cost XP, so for non-Incantatrix/Dweomerkeeper Wizards, I wouldn't expect them to beat Planar Shepherds. Even with Simulacrums, Planar Bindings and company, Planar Shepherd just has an easier access to all those abilities and pays nothing for them.

Superglucose
2010-07-27, 06:22 AM
Might I suggest that the Wizard can be throwing around AMFs willy-nilly that don't affect the wizard in any way shape or form?

But yeah if we're allowing Planar Shepherd then you can use whatever PrC you want from the Wizard side of things. Then the game gets silly... oh wait it already was :smallwink:

And if we're looking at rules abuse, a pyrohydra's fire is an attack form not a breathweapon according to the SRD. It's a really silly omission but there you have it :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-07-27, 06:29 AM
Might I suggest that the Wizard can be throwing around AMFs willy-nilly that don't affect the wizard in any way shape or form?

Both gain shaped AMFs at around the same point; Wizard can pick 'em through Archmage while Druid needs to invest a feat on Extraordinary Spell Aim.

Tshern
2010-07-27, 07:39 AM
Both gain shaped AMFs at around the same point; Wizard can pick 'em through Archmage while Druid needs to invest a feat on Extraordinary Spell Aim.
And Wizards need to invest three feats to get into Archmage.

Eldariel
2010-07-27, 07:57 AM
And Wizards need to invest three feats to get into Archmage.

Aye, though one Spell Focus tends to come along anyways and SF: Spellcraft can be attained from MS.

Tshern
2010-07-27, 08:10 AM
Aye, though one Spell Focus tends to come along anyways and SF: Spellcraft can be attained from MS.
I only use Spell focus for Master Specialist and Shadowcraft Mage. Even with Master Specialist there is a definite trade off, since you tend to lose Spontaneous divination if you go into MS. Not always worth it.