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Talbot
2010-07-27, 02:38 AM
Ok... I'm making progress on my Swashbuckler/Unarmed Swordsage/Master of Nine. I've go the class levels pretty much figured out (I'm amenable to dropping the last Swordsage level for something good, and the only things really super set in stone are the first three levels and the general prevalence of Unarmed Swordsage):

1)Swashbuckler 1
2)Swashbuckler 2
3)Swashbuckler 3
4) Unarmed Swordsage 1
5) Unarmed Swordsage 2
6) Unarmed Swordsage 3
7) Uncanny Trickster 1
8) Unarmed Swordsage 4
9) Unarmed Swordsage 5
10) Unarmed Swordsage 6
11) Unarmed Swordsage 7
12) Master of Nine 1
13) Master of Nine 2
14) Master of Nine 3
15) Master of Nine 4
16) Master of Nine 5
17) Uncanny Trickster 2 (Advancing Master of Nine)
18) Uncanny Trickster 3 (Advancing Master of Nine)
19) Unarmed Swordsage 8
20) Unarmed Swordsage 9

The Character Concept: He starts out a well-bred but rebellious noble's son, choosing to use his education and fencing training (Swashbuckler 1) to adventure, save damsels, and such rather than doing anything terribly productive. This goes well enough for a while before a life-changing event (may or may not be dramatic, to be finessed with DM) leads him to cast aside both his wealth and material possessions and train under the world's greatest martial artists, scholars, and philosophers, seeking to improve his mind and body in the service of good. Eventually, his youthful fervor gives way to contemplation, and he retreats into the mountains for a period of years to train and meditate before returning (think Pai Mei if he were Neutral Good and not a douche) and taking up the life of a wandering hero; doing good and trying to enrich the minds of those he encounters. Above is the skeleton of the best build I've come up with so far to represent him.


The Pros: Gets me maneuvers from every school, as many as six level 9s (I'll probably only take four or five, though). Pretty solid saves, and he's got Evasion. I rolled pretty solid too (that's all I've done so far... I don't have the paper here (it's at the DM's), but I know the top four are 18, 17, 17, 16 and there's nothing below 11), so Insightful Strike + Shadow Blade + Insightful Strikes means with certain strikes I'll be tagging on Str + Int + Dex + Wis, so that doesn't suck. Plenty of skillpoints is hugely important, so it's a good thing he'll have those.

The Cons: Badly feat starved (considering what I want), BAB tops out at 14, probably too weak to survive in an optimized party the first few levels.

Feats I Have to Have: Educated, Knowledge Devotion, Shadow Blade, the various pre-reqs for Master of Nine, Martial Study: White Raven (to be taken early so as to get Diplomacy as a class skill).

Feats I'd really like to have: Kung-Fu Genius, Vow of Poverty (which means Sacred Vow as well, by default), Snap Kick, Martial Study x2 (picking up more maneuvers from Iron Heart/White Raven/Devoted Spirit), Keen Intellect

Now, he'll either be in a campaign with bonus feats at 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th or a campaign that allows two flaws at first level, as well as a (minor) bonus feat at first level (I think the DM will let Educated be that feat). That means I have either 14 or 11 available feats... but I want/need 15. I don't know yet what level he'll be starting at, so I'd like him to be playable from 1-20. Further complicating matters is the fact that I'd really like to snag Knowledge Devotion ASAP, and I'm not super flexible on moving entry to Master of Nine back at all as it'd mean I couldn't start snagging Level 9s till level 19, meaning I need all four of those pre-req feats early. Factor in the fact that Educated, Keen Intellect, and Kung Fu Genius all need to be taken at either level 1 or level 1 of Unarmed Swordsage, and those early feat slots are Sophie's Choice every time.

What I would like from the Playground is:

A) Build tweaks that improve the number of feats I can rack up without hurting my character concept, skills, maneuvers, or initiator level.
B) Good/strong arguments for why some feats should be taken earlier/instead of others so I can feel better about putting off, say, Snap Kick till 15 or so.
C) Suggestions on which skill tricks (since the build gets seven) I should take. So far Collector of Stories and the Mosquito Bite one seem like the only slam-dunks, but I don't know the Skill Tricks well.
D) Advice on which Stances to take for each discipline, since I'd *prefer* to have them be from as many disciplines as possible (although unless my math is bad, I only get 7 so two schools are left out of that party).
E) Any other cool suggestions that let me have my cake and eat it too.

Feats with time preferences:

ASAP: Educated, Keen Intellect, Kung Fu Genius, Knowledge Devotion, Martial Study (White Raven)
Somewhere between 6 and 12: Vow of Poverty
18 or later: Last two Martial Studies

Special Note: Character Concept really is the most important thing here. Even if he doesn't end up with Vow of Poverty, I really don't want him running around with any meaningful possessions, so please spare me the magic item suggestions.

Thespianus
2010-07-27, 04:23 AM
Ask your DM if you can use fractional BAB, it would get you to 15.75, at least.

Also, how do you advance Master of Nine 7 levels? It's a 5 level PrC. Maybe I'm missing some houserule or some other rule? Could you explain that part?

However, can I suggest Rogue instead of Uncanny Trickster? With Craven, that would give you 2D6+20 in extra Sneak Attack damage at level 20, with the same BAB and the same skill points? Daring Outlaw could add a 1D6 to that, but it doesn't seem worth a feat, IMHO.

AtwasAwamps
2010-07-27, 08:49 AM
Ask your DM if you can use fractional BAB, it would get you to 15.75, at least.

Also, how do you advance Master of Nine 7 levels? It's a 5 level PrC. Maybe I'm missing some houserule or some other rule? Could you explain that part?

However, can I suggest Rogue instead of Uncanny Trickster? With Craven, that would give you 2D6+20 in extra Sneak Attack damage at level 20, with the same BAB and the same skill points? Daring Outlaw could add a 1D6 to that, but it doesn't seem worth a feat, IMHO.

You're missing the point of Uncanny Trickster levels, which advance his MoN levels...thus why he wouldn't slip rogue in there.

Why Vow of Poverty? IF its flavor, okay, but honestly, it's two feat slots that won't be adding anything to you power-wise.

Thespianus
2010-07-27, 09:34 AM
You're missing the point of Uncanny Trickster levels, which advance his MoN levels...thus why he wouldn't slip rogue in there.

I'm not missing the point, I'm questioning the point. How do you advance a 5 level PrC to level 7?

He's got 5 levels of MoN in the build, and wants to advance 2 further levels through Uncanny Trickster, for a total of 7 levels of the 5 level PrC Master of Nine.

How does that work?

AtwasAwamps
2010-07-27, 09:41 AM
I'm not missing the point, I'm questioning the point. How do you advance a 5 level PrC to level 7?

He's got 5 levels of MoN in the build, and wants to advance 2 further levels through Uncanny Trickster, for a total of 7 levels of the 5 level PrC Master of Nine.

How does that work?

Because by RAW Uncanny Trickster advances a classes abilities, regardless of whether you've finished the class. It's a common trick for builds that want to pump up a short prestige class. See - Hellfire Warlock builds.

It's not something I'd allow in a game I ran for the reasons you've illustrated, but they're how it works. Not being intimately familiar with MoN, I don't know how it would for for that class, but considering some people rule that it allows the progression of Hellfire for the Hellfire Warlock (which I believe has only three levels) it's not too far-fetched to assume the same is in play here, since that appears to be what is indicated.

Talbot
2010-07-27, 12:22 PM
For Mo9, Uncanny Trickster basically just scores you three more maneuvers, an extra stance, and boosts your Initiator Level (since the last two levels of Uncanny Trickster count as two levels of an Initiator Class, and two levels of a non Initiator class, giving your three Initiator Levels in two levels. My IL that way ends up at 19, whereas with Rogue it'd end up at 17, meaning I'd only get one level 9 maneuver, and I'd get it at level 20).

Vow of Poverty is a flavor thing, and while I don't agree with the prevailing theory that it's overpowered, for a character that isn't going to have any items, it'd be handy to pump his to-hit by four, his AC by seven, his saves, his skill points, etc. Otherwise I feel like he'll pretty quickly fall behind the rest of the party, since conceptually it doesn't make much sense for him to have any items after level six or so.

Master_Rahl22
2010-07-27, 02:59 PM
I can't seem to find it now, but I once saw a list of ways to get bonus feats for entering Master of Nine. I seem to remember one of the Monk variants in UA and the SRD could help. Also, I very much recommend using Desert Wind Dodge or Expeditious Dodge to fulfill the Dodge requirement since either are better than Dodge.

I'm a bit confused by what you're asking. It seems that you want build suggestions on how to get more feats, but that you're very set on your levels and want no (or very few) items. There really aren't any other ways to get feats. The most obvious thing I see is to use a few of the Crown of the White Raven items from ToB to get your first maneuver in some of the schools. These don't even need to be fluffed as magic if you'd prefer, maybe just physical reminders of that one time he did some stuff.

true_shinken
2010-07-27, 03:12 PM
Avoid Vow of Poverty like the plague. Please.

Talbot
2010-07-27, 03:20 PM
Avoid Vow of Poverty like the plague. Please.

Why? I'm never sure when someone advises me against if it's because they think its overpowered or underpowered... opinion seems to be pretty divided. I personally see it as underpowered for fighters/barbs and the like (and wizards, since they lose their spellbook), but otherwise not especially gamebreaking in either direction.

@Master Rahl- More feats would be nice, but I'm a little flexible on some of the levels (I'm not married to Uncanny Trickster, I wouldn't mind losing a couple levels of Swordsage if I have to, and while I'm more attached to it, I'd even be willing to give up Master of Nine if the proper alternative emerged), and I'm especially interested in ways to get similar benefits that don't cost feats... for example, besides taking a level of Factotum or the Educated feat, is there a way to get all Knowledge skills as class skills? Or a way to make Diplomacy a class skill early on without using a feat on Martial Study? Is there a way to reduce my SAD without Keen Intellect/Kung Fu Genius (keep in mind, I need loads of skill points), etc. I'm also really interested in hearing suggestions for which Skill Tricks are worth the investment.

Darrin
2010-07-27, 04:16 PM
I can't seem to find it now, but I once saw a list of ways to get bonus feats for entering Master of Nine. I seem to remember one of the Monk variants in UA and the SRD could help. Also, I very much recommend using Desert Wind Dodge or Expeditious Dodge to fulfill the Dodge requirement since either are better than Dodge.



A one-level dip into Monk with the Cobra Strike variant style gets you Imp. Unarmed Strike and Dodge, or a two-level dip with Sleeping Tiger style gets you Improved Initiative.

However, the best non-martial dip for MoN is probably cleric. With the Time and Shadow/Darkness domain, you can pick up Improved Initiative and Blind-Fight as bonus feats. Add cloistered to that, and you can get the Knowledge domain/devotion as well. You also get turn undead, which qualifies you for Ruby Knight Vindicator. RKV maneuver progression is slower than a base martial adept class, but a 5-6 level dip gets you full BAB, full Initiator Levels, and more maneuvers/stances than most other martial adept PrCs. But you'll probably have to fudge the deity requirement (Wee-Jas doesn't have Time or Darkness domains available).

Thespianus
2010-07-28, 02:31 AM
Because by RAW Uncanny Trickster advances a classes abilities, regardless of whether you've finished the class. It's a common trick for builds that want to pump up a short prestige class. See - Hellfire Warlock builds.

While not doubting that it's correct (I'm just kinda surprised), where is the RAW support for this? The only rules for advancing PrCs above the levels listed in the PrC description is in the Epic Characters section of the DMG, as far as I know, so I would love to read the RAW support for this "trick". Thanks :)

Talbot
2010-07-28, 04:58 AM
Tangent:

Is there a way to cram all of the following maneuvers into the build listed above? I've been able to get within one or two, but so far I always fall short. I think there's probably a better order to use as far as trade-ins go to get the whole list in:

Desert Wind: Inferno Blast + Leaping Flame + Burning Blade + Fan the Flames + Dragon’s Flame + Blistering Flourish (6)
Devoted Spirit: Strike of Righteous Vitality + Vanguard Strike + Daunting Strike + Aura of Perfect Order (Stance) (4)
Diamond Mind: Time Stands Still + Stance of Alacrity or Hear the Air (Stance) + Moment of Perfect Mind + Mind Over Body + Ruby Nightmare Blade + Pearl of Black Doubt (Stance) (5)
Setting Sun: Step of the Wind (Stance) + Clever Positioning + Ballista Throw (2)
Shadow Hand: Five Shadows Creeping Ice Enervation Strike + Child of Shadow (Stance) + Enervating Shadow Strike + Hand of Death + Shadow Blink + Stalker in the Night (6)
Iron Heart: Wall of Blades + Adamantine Hurricane + Iron Heart Surge + Iron Heart Endurance (trade out for Strike of Perfect Clarity at level 18) (4)
Stone Dragon: Mountain Tombstone Strike +Bone Crusher + Roots of the Mountain (Stance) (3)
White Raven: Either Lead the Attack or Douse the Flames + White Raven Tactics (2)
Tiger Claw: Hunter’s Sense (Stance) + Death From Above (2)

PId6
2010-07-28, 05:30 AM
Vow of Poverty is a flavor thing, and while I don't agree with the prevailing theory that it's overpowered
The prevailing theory (here at least) is that it's severely underpowered in most games. If you tally up the VoP bonuses, it comes up short compared to WBL. In addition, you cannot choose what you get from VoP, as opposed to items, and it doesn't give you critical utility abilities such as flight, detection abilities (18th level True Seeing is way too late), DR penetration (against anything except evil and magic), and similar. Bonus Exalted feats also become worthless very very fast.

Obviously its value is different in low-wealth campaigns, but as long as your game comes anywhere close to WBL, VoP comes up lacking.

Talbot
2010-07-28, 05:33 AM
Obviously its value is different in low-wealth campaigns, but as long as your game comes anywhere close to WBL, VoP comes up lacking.

Interesting... of the two campaigns he's likely to see action in, one is very low-wealth/low-magic, but the other is (probably) pretty standard... so it would be good in one and crappy in the other?

PId6
2010-07-28, 05:40 AM
Interesting... of the two campaigns he's likely to see action in, one is very low-wealth/low-magic, but the other is (probably) pretty standard... so it would be good in one and crappy in the other?
Depends on what you mean by "very" low-wealth. If you're unlikely to find more than a couple of magic items throughout the course of the entire campaign, then yeah, VoP is preferable and probably overpowered. If you're getting 50-75% of WBL, items are probably still better, though it depends on the character (non-item dependent classes like druid or totemist [NOT monk] might want VoP more). If it's a standard-wealth campaign, you should probably avoid VoP then unless your character concept really can't be done without it.

Talbot
2010-07-28, 05:47 AM
Depends on what you mean by "very" low-wealth. If you're unlikely to find more than a couple of magic items throughout the course of the entire campaign, then yeah, VoP is preferable and probably overpowered. If you're getting 50-75% of WBL, items are probably still better, though it depends on the character (non-item dependent classes like druid or totemist [NOT monk] might want VoP more). If it's a standard-wealth campaign, you should probably avoid VoP then unless your character concept really can't be done without it.

Well, it's low wealth in that anybody who didn't take crafting feats (or hang out with somebody who did) probably only has one or two magic items, tops. People who do have crafting feats.... they're a bit better off. The character concept COULD be done without VoP, but I really don't want the guy to have any magic loot; the whole point is supposed to be that he's that badass by virtue of his years of study/intellect/training.