New Spell - [PEACH]

[Another_Poet]

EDIT: New version here:
Hades' Rotten Wine
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 2, Clr2
Components: V, S, M
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Components:

The positive energy sustaining your body deals damage to any undead creature who tries to feed on your life force (such as with Blood Drain, Energy Drain, or Touch of Insanity). Any undead creature that makes such an attack against you takes 1d8 positive energy per 2 caster levels. They do not recover hit points or gain temporary hit points from the attack. You still take damage or negative levels from the attack normally.

This spell cannot be used by undead or nonliving creatures.

Material Component: a splash of red wine vinegar (swallowed upon casting)


I proposed this idea to my DM. I play a wizard who recently learned Vampiric Touch, in a game where actual vampires are a real threat. I asked if I could research a spell that would allow my blood to do harm to vampires rather than help them. The idea being that I am powered by positive energy, and already know how to move that energy between creatures.

The DM said yes. So now I have to present a balanced spell for him to consider. Here are two versions of said spell.

VERSION 1
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 2 maybe???? ; Clr 2??
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

While under the effect of this spell, the positive energy sustaining your body deals damage to any undead creature who tries to feed on your life force (such as with a Blood Drain or Energy Drain attack). When the undead creature damages you with such an attack, you still take its normal effects - but the undead cannot recover hit points, gain temporary hit points, or otherwise be healed or helped by the attack. Instead, the undead takes positive energy damage equal to 1d8 per point of Constitution drain inflicted on you, or 3d8 per negative level inflicted on you. This spell cannot be used by undead or nonliving creatures.

VERSION 2
Level: Sor/Wiz 3 ???? ; Clr 3??

While under the effect of this spell, the positive energy sustaining your body deals damage to any undead creature who tries to feed on your life force (such as with a Blood Drain or Energy Drain attack). When the undead creature damages you with such an attack, you still take its normal effects - but the undead cannot recover hit points, gain temporary hit points, or otherwise be healed or helped by the attack. Instead, the undead takes positive energy damage equal to 1d8 per hit dice you possess. This spell cannot be used by undead or nonliving creatures.

Questions:
1) What is the proper spell level for each version?
2) What would it be if the duration was only 1 min./level?
3) Which version do you prefer and why?
4) What would an awesome name for this spell be? (I have considered Fangbreak, Life's Revenge and Pulsefire but all seem a little too cartoony or melodramatic.)

[ericgrau]

2) Immunity to negative energy attacks is a bit nuts. Simply having this ready on a scroll or spellbook gives immunity to certain encounters. I'd make the duration 1 min/level while the level for 1 hour / level is "no".
3) Version 2. Anything but a flat amount of damage is too clunky. For that matter I'd make the damage caster level based with a cap, like other spells.
4) Apparently you haven't seen the names of a lot of splatbook spells :smalltongue:. Eh, w/e you want.

Misc: This sort of thing should really be SR:yes, at least for the backlash damage. More logical that way. The damage canceling could be SR:no if you want.

1) At 1 minute per level I'd say this spell is similar in power to vampiric touch as it both damages and cancels damage to you. Since it has over twice the damage of vampiric touch, I'd put the spell level at about 5. It would be 6 but the defensive aspect hasn't increased. The level could be less if the damage were lower. For example, level 3 if it's a d6 per 2 caster levels.

[Another_Poet]

2) Immunity to negative energy

You are not immune. You still take the negative level or Con drain.
edit: I've gone back and put the sentence about this in red in the OP.


Simply having this ready on a scroll or spellbook gives immunity to certain encounters. I'd make the duration 1 min/level while the level for 1 hour / level is "no".

Do you still feel this way knowing that it does not render you immune?


3) Version 2. Anything but a flat amount of damage is too clunky. For that matter I'd make the damage caster level based with a cap, like other spells.

Fair point.


1) At 1 minute per level I'd say this spell is similar in power to vampiric touch as it both damages and cancels damage to you.

No it doesn't.

[jiriku]

1) I'd call the first version level 3 and the second version level 5 or 6, mostly because the long duration makes this a credible all-day defense almost as soon as you're able to cast it. A buff that's going to be up for several encounters per day is worth a lot more than one that's only good for a single encounter. The second version is also getting a level increase because the damage is uncapped and cannot be saved against or resisted with spell resistance, and is of a type that undead generally can't become resistant to.

2) I'd consider both version at one level lower if the duration was 1 min/level. Were I DMing the campaign, I'd encourage you to use the shorter duration as well, because long-lasting personal-only buffs contribute significantly to the general imbalance between casters and non-casters (see also: divine metamagic/persistent spell).

3) I'd prefer version 1, because the damage and denied drain are just enough penalty to say to the attacking undead "don't do that", forcing the undead to find some other means of harming you. It hinders, but it's not an automatic win button. The latter version, however IS a win button. It deals so much damage that you're actually encouraged to find ways to trick undead into attempting to drain you and using your "defensive" spell as a primary form of offense. Additionally, the second version of the spell deals A LOT LOT LOT of damage for a no-save, no-SR damage effect that lasts all day and requires no in-combat action to use, especially since undead that drain Con or life energy levels generally have low HD (and thus few hp) for their CR. I'll grant you, it's a purely reactive effect that's only useful against a narrow category of opponents, but it really blows the snot out of those opponents when they attempt to use their primary attack mode.

Also, explain what sort of attacks are defended against a little more. Would this trigger against the Strength-draining attack of a shadow, or the Wisdom-draining attack of an allip?

4) Grandiose names are pretty much par for the course. You're a wizard; it's assumed that you'll have a towering ego. How about Vivacious Eruption, Lifeblood, or X's Unquenchable Font of Everlasting Life? (where X is your character name).

[Peregrine]

One way to avoid making the spell too powerful or high-level would be to tie its damage to the drain's normal effects. The easiest answer is that the undead creature takes damage instead of gaining temporary hit points (typically 5 per negative level).

For ability score damage like the vampire's blood drain, it would be fair to make the damage higher. For blood drain, given that they're biting you, you can even justify what you've already got, without making the spell too high a level. Say 1d8 per caster level, though; it's equivalent in most cases to Hit Dice, but is safer from potential abuses.

You could also consider applying it to non-blood drain ability damage, like the shadow's strength drain.

No save and no SR seems appropriate given that they are hitting you, and it's a personal-range spell.

Additionally, it might be a cool little bonus if the spell also works against vampiric touch. :smallwink:

I second Jiriku's suggestion of lifeblood as a name for this spell. Here's a possible write-up.

Lifeblood
Necromancy [Good] Evocation may be equally or more suitable
Level: Cleric 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Positive energy infuses your bloodstream and bolsters your life force. For the duration of the spell, any undead creature that makes an energy drain attack against you takes damage instead of gaining temporary hit points. You still take damage or negative levels from the attack normally.

The vampiric touch spell and other similar necromancy effects are also reversed, even against creatures that are not undead.

Vampires who make a successful blood drain attack against you are even more vulnerable to your lifeblood, taking 1d8 damage per caster level (maximum 10d8).

[Another_Poet]

One thing I have to ask everyone is this:

How can I justify making it 1 hr/level without bumping it way the heck up to 5th level or higher?

The problem is that a 1 min/level spell of this kind is pretty much useless. We are creeping around the tombs of Ravenloft and Strahd can just pop out anywhere. Last session I ran over to a chair to take cover from some suits of armour and suddenly there was Strahd, adjacent to me, and my turn was over. Lucky for me he failed his attack roll but otherwise it would've been con drain city.

The point is that when you're about to face wights or vampires the GM rarely puts up a flashing neon sign to that effect. If I have to wait until I see the critter to use the spell (1 min/level) then it is often too late. If I can put it on in the morning (1 hr/level) and feel safe all day, it becomes useful.

Opinions appreciated.

[DracoDei]

I would consider making this Touch... makes it more party-friendly by encouraging sharing the power.

I would also say that perhaps this should either disallow any immediate saving throws (so NOT the one 24 hours later for Energy Drain), or that the damage should only happen if you fail any such saving throw. Don't feel like looking up how often this would come up.

Maybe have it cause a recognizable glow (somewhat similar to the one that Dimensional Anchor gives) so that Undead have a fair warning if they have prior experience, and or have heard of it and can make a Spellcraft check.

Oddly enough I would compare/contrast the Devoted Spirit Strike in Tome of Battle that lets you deal CON damage to yourself to add damage and to-hit to a single attack. (Ask around if you don't know what I am talking about... I don't feel like looking it up just at the moment).

[Peregrine]

With limits on damage, I'd say 1 hour/level is fair for 3rd level. Heck, take my previous post and turn "1 min." into "10 min."; it's still 2nd level, no worries.


I would also say that perhaps this should either disallow any immediate saving throws (so NOT the one 24 hours later for Energy Drain), or that the damage should only happen if you fail any such saving throw. Don't feel like looking up how often this would come up.

Pretty well never. Energy drain is usually a slam or touch attack that allows no save up front. (I was considering adding a bonus on the save 24 hours later to my writeup -- either "bonus on saves 24 hours after the spell", or "bonus on saves if spell is active at the 24 hour mark" -- but it was looking complicated enough already.)


Maybe have it cause a recognizable glow (somewhat similar to the one that Dimensional Anchor gives) so that Undead have a fair warning if they have prior experience, and or have heard of it and can make a Spellcraft check.

Noooo no no, I most vehemently disagree. :smallsmile: The spell is already highly situational, and probably only good for one shot per encounter. Nobody else gives the enemy "fair warning" of how they intend to lay on the smackdown!

[DracoDei]

Noooo no no, I most vehemently disagree. :smallsmile: The spell is already highly situational, and probably only good for one shot per encounter. Nobody else gives the enemy "fair warning" of how they intend to lay on the smackdown!

Fire Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireShield.htm) does and that doesn't involve either prior experience or a Spellcraft check. Still, you have a point, and I was just brainstorming.

[jiriku]

One thing I have to ask everyone is this:

How can I justify making it 1 hr/level without bumping it way the heck up to 5th level or higher?

The problem is that a 1 min/level spell of this kind is pretty much useless. We are creeping around the tombs of Ravenloft and Strahd can just pop out anywhere. Last session I ran over to a chair to take cover from some suits of armour and suddenly there was Strahd, adjacent to me, and my turn was over. Lucky for me he failed his attack roll but otherwise it would've been con drain city.

The point is that when you're about to face wights or vampires the GM rarely puts up a flashing neon sign to that effect. If I have to wait until I see the critter to use the spell (1 min/level) then it is often too late. If I can put it on in the morning (1 hr/level) and feel safe all day, it becomes useful.

Opinions appreciated.

Reudce the duration to 1d4 rounds and the casting time to an immediate action. It gets the job done without the power boost involved in creating an all-day buff.

And if I might comment, this solves the "visible display" conundrum. Activating it as an immediate action means you get your shot in. A visible display discourages the enemy from trying it again.

[ericgrau]

You are not immune. You still take the negative level or Con drain.
edit: I've gone back and put the sentence about this in red in the OP.

Do you still feel this way knowing that it does not render you immune?

At 1 min/level 1d8 damage per level I'd then drop the spell to 3rd level ish. I mean that's par for 3rd level (though the type it is a bit difficult to resist), and I expect an average of 1-2 uses before you stop getting attacked. At 1 hour per level that is a bit more powerful, since you can pile it on with other buffs without ever spending a combat round. Consider that greater magic weapon is a 3rd level spell though it gives only a couple more points of damage and maybe 10-15% more hits. There aren't many hour/level spells that do so much, so it's difficult to say how high level it would be. I might even put it near 8th level with moment of prescience, but it's not as versatile so I dunno. Maybe 7th b/c you could always quicken the minute/level version and it'd be almost as good as the hour/level version.

I would make it SR:yes so it's more resistible and for fluff. i.e., anything that hits something directly is usually SR:yes. That's one thing that concerns me balance-wise; positive as an energy type is difficult to be resistant to. That could be reason enough to cut the damage in half right there, if the spell wasn't already kinda situational.

[Andion Isurand]

Look up positoxin in Libris Mortis.. its basically a supernatural substance laced with positive energy that deals damage to undead like poison.

Perhaps you could make your spell transforms the target's blood so that it counts as a positoxin.

[Havvy]

The Positoxin spell idea seems nice, but different than the effect this is trying to achieve. I don't see why there can't be two versions of this spell.

1. The all-day buff being higher level.
2. The imm. action casting time at a lower level.

There is no reason why when the only limit is space on the Internet to have spells of similar function.

[Andion Isurand]

Interestingly, if you did get your "Positoxic Blood" drained, both you and the undead would take ability damage simultaneously assuming the undead fails the inital save.

[Another_Poet]

Thanks for the help guys. Here is the version I am going to submit to my GM for review. If he thinks it is too strong I will take some more of your suggestions. So far all I've really down is scale down the damage and make the language clearer.

I figure it's best to aim high :)

Hades' Rotten Wine
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 2, Clr2
Components: V, S, M
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The positive energy sustaining your body deals damage to any undead creature who tries to feed on your life force (such as with Blood Drain, Energy Drain, or Touch of Insanity). Any undead creature that makes such an attack against you takes 1d8 positive energy damage per 2 caster levels. They do not recover hit points or gain temporary hit points from the attack. You still take damage or negative levels from the attack normally.

This spell cannot be used by undead or nonliving creatures.

Material Component: a splash of red wine vinegar (swallowed upon casting)

[jiriku]

That's fair, I'd probably call that 3rd level rather than 2nd, but like you said, aim high and give him a chance to say yes before you tone it down. :smallbiggrin:

[Zaydos]

I'd probably make it Lv 3 or put a damage cap on it (maybe 5d8 if it was a Lv 2 spell) or make it 10 minutes/level (still long enough you can usually cast it at the start of a dungeon but not just an all day buff). But if you're researching it in game then it seems good, just don't be surprised if the DM makes it Lv 3.

[ericgrau]

The lower damage helps, but I'd point out the duration to the DM; I wouldn't try to slip anything by him. If he glosses over the duration he could say "2nd level for 1d8 per 2 levels, sure that's about right" without realizing what he's done. He might never notice (and it may never matter) if it's your only buff or if it's a low undead campaign or if your caster does a good job of avoiding melee anyway, but stacking effects can get nuts.

[Zaydos]

I'd second that, mention the duration. When my players have researched spells that's the first thing I ask about, because I know enough people (namely my players) who would just glance over it without thinking. As a DM I'd expect to be told if it has one that is abnormal for the type of spell i.e. other than 1 round/level or 1 minute/level.

[Another_Poet]

I didn't think of 1 hr/level as abnormal since there are so many spells that use that.

The DM however did notice the duration and said he felt it was OK because of two things: personal only, and very situational usage.

He approved it as-is! Of course he also liberally houserules things so I am sure he will find or make an undead who can bypass it somehow... but if I get my moment of glory against Strahd first I'll be happy.

Thanks again for your help everyone!

ap