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Goonthegoof
2010-07-27, 10:53 AM
Aside from a couple of items in the draconomicon and a few scant references elsewhere it seems dragons are almost never described as wearing magic items, and I don't understand why not. They're intelligent and have the abilities, time and resources to craft their own magic items, so why would they not give themselves as much of an advantage as possible by getting stuff like monk's belts and amulets of mighty fists?

Ernir
2010-07-27, 11:05 AM
I'd imagine they favour less obtrusive magical items, like rings, amulets, and Ioun stones, which might not find their way into descriptions.

"The dragon was larger than a barn, with a wingspan greater than that of any bird, and it annihilated the king's knights with a single breath of fire!"

"Oh, and it also had a ring." :smallconfused:

Goonthegoof
2010-07-27, 11:26 AM
Yes, but what about the more intrusive ones? A monk's belt would usually give more benefit than armour, but items such as helms and bracers would be both useful and visibly obvious. I'm more talking about the actual combat utility anyway- Pretty much every humanoid/monstrous humanoid's entry gives them wielding equipment but dragons are always naked, despite the clear advantage magical items would give them. Why?

LibraryOgre
2010-07-27, 11:28 AM
I kind of like the idea that dragons transfer enchantments to items more appropriate for their body type. Gems they stick between their scales and the like.

WarKitty
2010-07-27, 11:30 AM
Yes, but what about the more intrusive ones? A monk's belt would usually give more benefit than armour, but items such as helms and bracers would be both useful and visibly obvious. I'm more talking about the actual combat utility anyway- Pretty much every humanoid/monstrous humanoid's entry gives them wielding equipment but dragons are always naked, despite the clear advantage magical items would give them. Why?

Good question. Sometimes I've seen it fluffed as draconic pride. But it really doesn't make much sense to me either.

DarthCyberWolf
2010-07-27, 11:31 AM
Dragons are arrogant so they probably think they don't need them... plus why wear it when it would look great in your hoard!:smallbiggrin:

nightwyrm
2010-07-27, 11:42 AM
Dragons are arrogant so they probably think they don't need them... plus why wear it when it would look great in your hoard!:smallbiggrin:

But they could be wearing their hoard. What safer place could there be for all his magical bling. :smallbiggrin:

DwarvenExodus
2010-07-27, 11:46 AM
But they could be wearing their hoard. What safer place could there be for all his magical bling. :smallbiggrin:

Let me put it this way: Do you keep your valuables on you at all times? Do you take your passport on your trip to the supermarket?

PapaNachos
2010-07-27, 11:50 AM
Let me put it this way: Do you keep your valuables on you at all times? Do you take your passport on your trip to the supermarket?

Would you pick pocket a dragon?

DwarvenExodus
2010-07-27, 11:52 AM
Uhh...

Good point

Goonthegoof
2010-07-27, 12:01 PM
Let me put it this way: Do you keep your valuables on you at all times? Do you take your passport on your trip to the supermarket?

If I lived in a world where I was likely to be attacked on my way to the supermarket and my passport gave a +5 deflection bonus to AC then I would.

nightwyrm
2010-07-27, 12:38 PM
Let me put it this way: Do you keep your valuables on you at all times? Do you take your passport on your trip to the supermarket?

I would if I was a fire breathing dragon who have to worry more about his empty house being burglarized while he was away than being mugged.

shadowmage
2010-07-27, 02:47 PM
In 4e they say dragons can eat magic items to gain the ability of the item. So the dragon has a +4 flaming sword, he eats it and now he has +4 flaming claws. But they very very rarely do it as it is depleting their horde.

ericgrau
2010-07-27, 02:52 PM
Dragons wear magical dragonscale barding of course to boost their AC :smalltongue:. Ya, I dunno how magic items for dragons are supposed to work. I would think that they would use them, but I dunno how much is coins and shinies and how much treasure is actually useful to them.

WinWin
2010-07-27, 03:16 PM
As stated before, Dragons are antagonists. Any gear they have is going into the PC's hands. That is a metagame perspective.

It would not be that difficult to modify gear for a dragon. Due to their nature, they will have to modify it themselves, or take it from another dragon. I can see a wilding clasp variant for shapechanging dragons. Also, slotless items would be highly prized.

Savage species also has a feat that grants more magical item slots. For a high HD dragon with lots of magical gear, that would be a good investment.

As for magical augmentation, simple enhancement bonuses are not that good compared to items that grant actions or prevent debuffing. From a mechanical perpective, they are a solitary (usually) creature that often encounters groups. Buffing melee is a trap option, especially when compared to flyby bombardment tactics.

LibraryOgre
2010-07-27, 03:20 PM
In 4e they say dragons can eat magic items to gain the ability of the item. So the dragon has a +4 flaming sword, he eats it and now he has +4 flaming claws. But they very very rarely do it as it is depleting their horde.

I like that. It gives dragons options for using magic items, without requiring them to swing swords or the like.

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-27, 03:21 PM
Dragons don't wear magical gear for the same reason they don't wear armour or discuss erectile disfunction in public places.

Because it's a sign of weakness.

Armour is there to stop people hurting you, magic items are similarly a crutch. A Dragon who needs such items is a poor excuse for a dragon. You can bet that even a dragon who kinda does need it would rather not be caught needing to.

If nothing else, it'd be a big come-and-rob-me signal for any more powerful, confident, badass Dragons in the region looking for an easy way to expand their hoard.

DracoDei
2010-07-27, 03:23 PM
Dragons in my games will at least be wearing any treasure randomly rolled up for them that they can benefit from, and will probably be equipped like NPCs rather than having treasure randomly rolled up... and they don't usually make the items themselves (that requires feats) they generally commission the enchantment of items, just like everyone else.

Eldan
2010-07-27, 03:26 PM
I don't know... that's the kind of attitude that lead to some armies not putting their warriors in armour, their generals on the frontline and their cavalry on foot because the enemy had no horses either and it would be dishonourable. The kind of attitude that gets you defeated.

Honestly, there would come a time when a great red wyrm wearing nothing and a great silver wyrm wearing +4 full plate of fire immunity face off and after some time, more open-minded dragons would just start winning fights.

Of course, one good reason I can see for dragons not wearing most items is that they have spells replicating much of the abilities.

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-27, 03:35 PM
You don't wear armour because you are a Baddass mofo.
You wear armour because you are afraid of getting hurt. From a psychological and a narrative point of view, the Dragon in the Tin can has already given away some advantages to his opponant.

Yuki Akuma
2010-07-27, 03:38 PM
As stated before, Dragons are antagonists. Any gear they have is going into the PC's hands. That is a metagame perspective.

Dragons already have four times the wealth of a standard NPC of their CR - why not convert some of it into magic items?

Eldan
2010-07-27, 03:40 PM
Narrative yes. But I think in a fight, you need every mechanical and logistic advantage you can get. And since you are a dragon, you are the only guy and on your side, so you don't have to worry about morale.

shadowmage
2010-07-27, 03:42 PM
The reason I see Dragons not using magic items is because they might become damaged or if they are expenedable they are gone. A dragon will be very hard pressed to do anything that decreases his hoard.

DracoDei
2010-07-27, 03:45 PM
P.S. When I said "equipped like NPCs" I didn't necessarily mean combat-focused, let alone adventuring-quality NPCs... IE the same amount of coin and art object, just with the magic items picked for synergy. The ones kitted out (within the limits of their resources...) like PCs? Yeah, those are the nasty ones...

For an example that is fairly high up the scale see Castor and Pollux (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6377600&postcount=32). (I have no idea how over or under treasured they are for their CRs). Note that if they were "adventuring grade" in their mindsets they would probably have more than one scroll each of True Haste... even if the GM bumped it up to 5th level to try to balance it. (First round flanking-for-sneak-attack full-attacks are nothing to sneeze at).

Telonius
2010-07-27, 03:45 PM
A magic item worn is a magic item not in the Hoard.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-27, 03:46 PM
You don't wear armour because you are a Baddass mofo.
You wear armour because you are afraid of getting hurt. From a psychological and a narrative point of view, the Dragon in the Tin can has already given away some advantages to his opponant.
Dragons are powerful in their knowledge that they can wait off any enemy and beat the new ones because waiting off made him more powerful. A dragon that values his treasure more than his own long, powerful, imposing life? I believe not, sir. If a dragon thinks he's actually threatened, he WILL use whatever at his disposal.
The eating idea is a good one for items that won't go on any slot.
Plus, if there's something more badass than a dragon, it is a pimped out dragon.

Eldan
2010-07-27, 03:46 PM
That's why smart dragons buy Riverine enchanted to self-repair.

LibraryOgre
2010-07-27, 03:46 PM
You don't wear armour because you are a Baddass mofo.
You wear armour because you are afraid of getting hurt. From a psychological and a narrative point of view, the Dragon in the Tin can has already given away some advantages to his opponant.

Do you know the technical term for people who favor psychology over solid equipment and tactics?

Corpses.

DracoDei
2010-07-27, 03:48 PM
A magic item worn is a magic item not in the Hoard.

I completely disagree.


Do you know the technical term for people who favor psychology over solid equipment and tactics?

Corpses.

Quoted for Truth.

LibraryOgre
2010-07-27, 03:55 PM
Quoted for Truth.

And horrible grammar. I am editing it.

DracoDei
2010-07-27, 04:00 PM
Damaged gear is why Mending and Make Whole exist.

Also, I edited in Mark Hall's grammatical correction.

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-27, 04:16 PM
Do you know the technical term for people who favor psychology over solid equipment and tactics?

Corpses.

There's a valid point to this.

However, note that in most settings the Dragons used to rule the world or were in some way dominant, and are now almost invariably much more rare. :smallwink:

Eldan
2010-07-27, 04:19 PM
Hmm. True.

All the more reason for the few ones remaining to be careful. I mean, if the humans (or dwarves, or whoever) invented armour and weapons, the dragons should adapt to that. I mean, they have the brains.

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-27, 04:24 PM
Personally, I basically just think that amongst other things it humanises them a bit much.

There's also the related thing of power-from-gear, it's kind of hard to respect accomplishments when they come 90% from other peoples work, (such as the poor sap crafting all of the jokermonk's partially charged wands. :smallwink:)

If you are fighting a Dragon, it should be terrifying. But it should be terrifying because it is a Dragon, not because it is wearing +4 plate armour and a ring of blinking, and not because it casts as a sorcerer of it's HD level. But of course, that's me, and YMMV.

(I understand there's a dragon template or varient or something that focuses 3.5 dragons much much more on being powerfully dragonny. Was it the Xorvintaal Dragon something or other? I forget.)

Eldan
2010-07-27, 04:32 PM
Hey, who said Dragon's don't craft their own gear.

Actually, the image of a thirty foot-tall dragon standing in front of a fifteen-foot tall anvil, forging plate armour with his bare hands is pretty cool.

But yeah. I see why it diminishes the image of the dragon somewhat. The problem is however, that from a purely pragmatic standpoint, the dragon can only win by wearing the items, and the rules let him.

ZeroGear
2010-07-27, 04:33 PM
Mind if I point out the obivous:
Dragons don't wear magic items because DOING SO WOULD MOST CERTAINLY BE THE DEATH OF THE PC'S!
I know, you are all going to yell at me. But think about it: if every dragon you put against the Pc's wore all the magic items it had in it's hord, it would be a LOT harder to take down. A dragon is already hard to kill, think about how much arder it would be if it had a cloak of invisibility, or a ring that protected it against the element it is weak against.
Aslo, a number of magical items are rendered redundant by the dragons own abilities. Think about it: why need a wand of fireball if you can blast people with your breath? Why wear lenses of true seeing if you already have blindsense? Why weild a weapon if you haveperfectly good claws, fangs, and a tail?
Sure, some items, like protection rings and items that boost natural armor would be useful, but how many dragonsdo you see barging into a wizards tower to buy such items, or invading a dwarven forge to make them?

I hate to be the spoilsport of this argument, but the easyest way to answer the main question is to simply assume that the items in the hord don't provide enough of a benifit to justify use and usefull tems arerarely found.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-27, 04:35 PM
Mind if I point out the obivous:
Dragons don't wear magic items because DOING SO WOULD MOST CERTAINLY BE THE DEATH OF THE PC'S!
I know, you are all going to yell at me. But think about it: if every dragon you put against the Pc's wore all the magic items it had in it's hord, it would be a LOT harder to take down. A dragon is already hard to kill, think about how much arder it would be if it had a cloak of invisibility, or a ring that protected it against the element it is weak against.
Aslo, a number of magical items are rendered redundant by the dragons own abilities. Think about it: why need a wand of fireball if you can blast people with your breath? Why wear lenses of true seeing if you already have blindsense? Why weild a weapon if you haveperfectly good claws, fangs, and a tail?
Sure, some items, like protection rings and items that boost natural armor would be useful, but how many dragonsdo you see barging into a wizards tower to buy such items, or invading a dwarven forge to make them?

I hate to be the spoilsport of this argument, but the easyest way to answer the main question is to simply assume that the items in the hord don't provide enough of a benifit to justify use and usefull tems arerarely found.

Kamina forbids a creature older and smarter than just about every mortal creature in the world to be hard to beat because it used its brain.

dgnslyr
2010-07-27, 04:46 PM
I'd imagine that they wear magic trinkets that just aren't very obvious on a giant dragon. Maybe it has a ring on a necklace around its neck, both magical. Does the dragon have to wear the item as intended in order to gain the benefits? Probably for some items, but for others, I don't see how an amulet of Natural Armor will make a difference if it's worn around the neck or wrapped around a horn.

aeauseth
2010-07-27, 05:35 PM
A monk's belt would usually give more benefit than armour, but items such as helms and bracers would be both useful and visibly obvious.

I ran a module once where the dragon used a belt as a collar. Shackled City I believe.

Your the DM so just about anything goes however need to keep things semi-real. I wouldn't custom make anything for the dragon (unless it was a pet of something much bigger - unlikely). A dragon is very proud of it's natural scale armor, it is unlikley it would wear barding. A close fitting helmet would seem fine. Rings are obvious choices. Boots/Cloak/Robes are unlikely. While technically they are sorcerers it seems unlikely they would use wands or anything that required a sorcerer spell list.

In my experience a dragon with shield & mage armor is a pretty powerful foe. If the party has minimal ranged capabilties use flyby attacks to harrass. If the party is strong in ranged then stomp on your nearest PC that is waving his/her hands and do a full attack. Pretty mean but -- hey! -- its a dragon!

If I were a dragon and wanted to wear a magic item, what would it be...

CHA item to improve frightful presense & spell like abilities
Energy resist item
The monk belt/collar was a good idea
Amulet of Mighty Fists
Bracers of armor +1 with crystal of XXXX
Gauntlets of DEX/STR
Circulet of rapid casting
Ioun stones, +1 ac, and others

Safety Sword
2010-07-27, 05:42 PM
Do you know the technical term for people who favor psychology over solid equipment and tactics?

Martial Arts Experts.

Fixed that for you.

Eldan
2010-07-27, 05:50 PM
Not true.

Anyway, didn't Draconomicon have a picture of a dragon in plate? That was badass.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-27, 05:53 PM
Not true.

Anyway, didn't Draconomicon have a picture of a dragon in plate? That was badass.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpt_draco6.jpg

Goonthegoof
2010-07-27, 06:08 PM
Personally, I basically just think that amongst other things it humanises them a bit much.

There's also the related thing of power-from-gear, it's kind of hard to respect accomplishments when they come 90% from other peoples work, (such as the poor sap crafting all of the jokermonk's partially charged wands. :smallwink:)

If you are fighting a Dragon, it should be terrifying. But it should be terrifying because it is a Dragon, not because it is wearing +4 plate armour and a ring of blinking, and not because it casts as a sorcerer of it's HD level. But of course, that's me, and YMMV.

(I understand there's a dragon template or varient or something that focuses 3.5 dragons much much more on being powerfully dragonny. Was it the Xorvintaal Dragon something or other? I forget.)

Except that it doesn't necessarily have to be someone else's work. If the dragon is so prideful that they won't wear items someone else made then they could quite easily pick up crafting feats- They live a long time, have heaps of feats to use and the resources and spellcasting abilities to make magical items, why wouldn't they just do that?

As to the second I'm inclined to disagree. Fighting a dragon should be terrifying because it's a dragon, true- But that includes the fact that it casts spells and wears items. A dragon isn't only terrifying because of its physical stature, its mind is just as much if not more of a threat than its body is.

shadowmage
2010-07-27, 08:33 PM
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpt_draco6.jpg

He did not choose to do it. Notice all the demons on him? They are there to make sure it stays on. It is riveted into his flesh.

Runestar
2010-07-27, 11:03 PM
Well, dragons wearing magic gear is not without precedent, just that the authors don't really go about optimizing their gear selection.

The various dragons in the "Age of Worms" path have magic gear such as rings of evasion, even the more powerful dracoliches have +5 inherent stat bonuses.

So I think this sort of thing is okay so long as it is not overdone. Heck, it can even help add some variety to each dragon fight, making each more memorable. A dragon with a belt of battle would be able to move and still full-attack, one with a cloak of displacement may be harder to hit, a red dragon with protection from cold would be a nasty surprise vs PCs packing cold spells etc.

Just don't go overboard and/or pile on too many static modifiers, MIC does have a nice selection of gear which essentially gives them a few /day abilities. :smallsmile:

Andion Isurand
2010-07-28, 12:04 AM
It might be cool if dragons could get a Hoard Tansference ability like the Phylactary Transference ability of a demilich

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm

ZeroGear
2010-07-28, 01:00 AM
Kamina forbids a creature older and smarter than just about every mortal creature in the world to be hard to beat because it used its brain.

Unless you are usig mechs in your game, Kamina's opinion is disreguarded. Adam Blade saying that is more likely, but he would be too easily distracted by lolis.

2xMachina
2010-07-28, 07:48 AM
Hey, who said Dragon's don't craft their own gear.

Actually, the image of a thirty foot-tall dragon standing in front of a fifteen-foot tall anvil, forging plate armour with his bare hands is pretty cool.

But yeah. I see why it diminishes the image of the dragon somewhat. The problem is however, that from a purely pragmatic standpoint, the dragon can only win by wearing the items, and the rules let him.

And using their own breath weapon for the fire!:smallbiggrin:

Would be so awesome.


He did not choose to do it. Notice all the demons on him? They are there to make sure it stays on. It is riveted into his flesh.

Wait, where is that from? I can't find it.

hamishspence
2010-07-28, 08:13 AM
Its from Draconomicon 4E- is a kind of Abyssal Dragon- white dragons captured by demons and with armour attached directly to them.

Eldan
2010-07-28, 08:15 AM
I actually meant this one.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/BB_Shockwave/Dungeons%20and%20Dragons/BronzeWyrm4.jpg

But now I realized that it's not actually wearing all that much.

shadowmage
2010-07-28, 08:36 AM
Me personally I do not mind Dragons wearing gear. In the MMO Istaria dragons craft and wear their own Armour. I just wished the game showed them wearing it. But in D&D it just needs to be taken into account for the difficulty level. But then how many treasures have had items monsters could have used but never do.

Thrawn183
2010-07-28, 09:00 AM
There's a valid point to this.

However, note that in most settings the Dragons used to rule the world or were in some way dominant, and are now almost invariably much more rare. :smallwink:

Hah, in my campaign setting they still do rule the world. Ok, so it's more a 3-way cold war between the chromatics, the metallics and the titans. Anyway, when you start adventuring all the way up to about level 12, you get to stick around the equivalent of Australia. You don't get to play with the big boys until you are one yourself.

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-28, 10:44 AM
I actually meant this one.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/BB_Shockwave/Dungeons%20and%20Dragons/BronzeWyrm4.jpg

But now I realized that it's not actually wearing all that much.

Oh, he's terrifying. Yep. I'm not even snickering much! :smallbiggrin:
I shall call him Tim.

Jyokage
2010-07-28, 11:56 AM
Well in dragon magic they have stats for draconic equipment, tail rings, and claw weapons and the like.

Goonthegoof
2010-07-28, 12:10 PM
I'm aware, but for the most part I wouldn't think dragons would need much dragon specific equipment. I can't think of a single reason that you would ever find a dragon without say a belt of giant strength.

Yahzi
2010-07-28, 12:20 PM
My dragons only own magic items they can use.

They sell the rest of the useless junk and invest it in good stuff.

Ormur
2010-07-28, 12:35 PM
A dragon in my campaign crafts magical trinkets to give as revards to adventureres that run little errands for him. I'm sure he crafts stuff for himself to wear I just didn't bother to describe it in detail. I don't think he wears anything conspicious compared to his splendid self anyway since armour would interfere with his spellcasting.

lightningcat
2010-07-28, 08:31 PM
Many magical items instantly adjust size and shape to fit whoever puts them on, such as rings, gloves, and belts. (A little remembered rule, that once caused one of my players to run screaming away from an pair of gauntlets.:smallbiggrin:)

I can easily see a dragon using these types of items, possible take from previous victims would-be dragon hunters. Items that are not adjustable would see less use, but be kept as needed. Where items that interfere with any of their abilities or serves no purpose to the dragon would be sold (or possible destroyed if really dangerous to the dragon) or kept in the horde. Armor would likely see the least amount of use, as dragons would eventually out grow it, so it would only be made for specific situations (such as a dragonic war).

Polarbeast
2010-07-28, 08:48 PM
As Tiki Snakes argued, I can see dragons refraining from using items due to pride... or to avoid showing weakness to other dragons.

I'd think, though, that an evil dragon would get a big kick out of surprising his wannabe slayers: "Yeah, there's a red dragon up there. I'm prepared. So totally beefing up on the Fire Resistance, and busting out my sword with the Cold spells on it."

*Red dragon gleefully sets up his cold-resistant gear and Ice Storm spells*

... and I need to read up on it again, but since dragons are so magically apt, can they grab metamagic feats to alter energy type? (Spells at least, if not their breath weapon)

senrath
2010-07-28, 08:53 PM
... and I need to read up on it again, but since dragons are so magically apt, can they grab metamagic feats to alter energy type? (Spells at least, if not their breath weapon)

Yup. If they can cast spells, they can select any Metamagic feat that a sorcerer can.

Beorn080
2010-07-28, 09:37 PM
Isn't there precedent for items forged in dragon fire? I've never seen that mentioned in D&D much, but I know I've seen it in other places.

And yes, Polarbeast, a smart red dragon has taken, at a minimum, protection from energy(cold) as a spell.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-28, 09:44 PM
Im my games dragons devour the magic of items that they really want, permanently imbuing it unto themselves. That way, they can have their horde, and eat it too! :smallbiggrin:

Quietus
2010-07-28, 09:54 PM
I actually like the idea of "hoard transference"; I would see nothing wrong with saying that one item per a dragon's age category, kept in the hoard, would transfer its abilities to the dragon - but it still has to "bind" itself magically to the appropriate part of the dragon. The effect is exactly identical to it WEARING the items, except it avoids the "christmas tree effect" (and instead is one GIANT NEON FRIGGIN' LIGHT itself), and gives an actual functioning reason as to why dragons hoard things in the first place.

Dr.Epic
2010-07-28, 09:56 PM
Nothing says you can't give them magical items.

Goonthegoof
2010-07-28, 11:12 PM
I am aware that I can, I just made the post questioning why 98% of the d&d dragons I see or read about aren't wearing as many magical items as possible.

Though I do like Quietus' idea, all dragons mindlessly hoarding wealth no matter what always seemed a little odd to me. I disagree on one point, though- I'd say there would be a few items you could wear that would make you more intimdating, not less.

Runestar
2010-07-29, 01:18 AM
One possibility is that given their love for gold, they would rather have a large pile of coins to recline in than spend all that on a single powerful magic item.

It's like asking "Would you rather have a +5 vorpal longsword or use the money to live a life of luxury?" In real life, I would actually go for the latter. :smallsmile:

2xMachina
2010-07-29, 02:37 AM
Its from Draconomicon 4E- is a kind of Abyssal Dragon- white dragons captured by demons and with armour attached directly to them.

Meh, I thought 3.5.

Ravens_cry
2010-07-29, 03:34 AM
Heh, when I saw the thread title, I imagined a dragon in a cape the size of a football field.
And it was awesome.

Goonthegoof
2010-07-29, 03:48 AM
One possibility is that given their love for gold, they would rather have a large pile of coins to recline in than spend all that on a single powerful magic item.

It's like asking "Would you rather have a +5 vorpal longsword or use the money to live a life of luxury?" In real life, I would actually go for the latter. :smallsmile:

True, but you don't have any reason to need a +5 vorpal longsword and I can't see what a gold has to do with a life of luxury. Besides, if they want to avoid paying so much for their items they can just craft them themselves.

Something else to think about: A dragon who spent lots on magical items would be significantly more powerful than one who didn't (which is in itself a pretty huge argument in favour of doing so, especially for chromatics) and thus capable of getting much more treasure.

Killer Angel
2010-07-29, 04:26 AM
Mind if I point out the obivous:
Dragons don't wear magic items because DOING SO WOULD MOST CERTAINLY BE THE DEATH OF THE PC'S!


Or, you know, you can put against the PCs a weaker dragon, but let it use his resources in a smart way... :smallamused:

Runestar
2010-07-29, 06:44 AM
I think there is a red dragon in FR which lives in the underdark with the duergar and is paid handsomely to use its breath weapon to power their forge. :smallsmile:

While we are on this topic, shall we brainstorm on magic gear which would benefit dragons abnormally well compared to PCs? Amulet of mighty fists is one, given its 6 natural weapons.

Eldan
2010-07-29, 06:47 AM
If you want to be mean, Wraithstrike. Or a permanent item of, what was that spell called, Shimmering Scales, or something like that, which turned your natural armour into a deflection bonus.

Also: invisible dragons. Always fun.

wick
2010-07-29, 07:22 AM
In 4e they say dragons can eat magic items to gain the ability of the item. So the dragon has a +4 flaming sword, he eats it and now he has +4 flaming claws. But they very very rarely do it as it is depleting their horde.

How come evertime I hear something about 4th ED I get dry heaves?



I would think that Dragons have a limited amount of items that they can use. Dragons prefer to keep thier weatlth in their hoard but if you roll up a magic item that is usefull then feel free to let the dragon use it. Remember though that the CR of a dragon is not based on it using magic items. So if you deck out the dragon it will be that mcuh more of a threat. (The current dragon CRs seem to be based on a party fighting a party taht is buffed before going into battle)

Eldan
2010-07-29, 07:35 AM
How come evertime I hear something about 4th ED I get dry heaves?


No idea. While I dislike a lot about 4E, that's actually a pretty cool idea. And certainly no more stupid than a huge lot of older edition fluff I've heard.

Runestar
2010-07-29, 07:38 AM
I would think that Dragons have a limited amount of items that they can use. Dragons prefer to keep thier weatlth in their hoard but if you roll up a magic item that is usefull then feel free to let the dragon use it. Remember though that the CR of a dragon is not based on it using magic items. So if you deck out the dragon it will be that mcuh more of a threat. (The current dragon CRs seem to be based on a party fighting a party taht is buffed before going into battle)

Even this can be quite arbitrary, since the effectiveness of a dragon also clearly depends on the effort in optimizing its spell selection. Give a great wyrm red dragon the energy admixture breath spell, and it is doing 48d10 damage with its breath weapon. Simply maximizing its breath lets it deal 240 damage, possibly toasting the entire party if they are not prepared (for instance, heighten breath can crank the DC beyond what the PCs can hope to make).

Or feats. If they can be used to optimize the tarrasque, they too can be used to opt the dragon too. :smallbiggrin:

wick
2010-07-29, 07:38 AM
No idea. While I dislike a lot about 4E, that's actually a pretty cool idea. And certainly no more stupid than a huge lot of older edition fluff I've heard.

So you are ok with a dragon in effect using the abilities from from items that it would not normally be able to use. just by eating them? The concept is ridiculous.

All a dragon would need to do is eat some +5 armor of energy resistance(kind doesn't matter since just the enchantment bonus is confered. Maybe some +5 vorpal claws.

You are basically giving the dragon special abilities for free or transforming regular magic items into no-slot magic items for free. And permanent too.

Eldan
2010-07-29, 07:42 AM
Why? A dragon's digestive system is screwed up. If it can eat rocks, digest them and exhale them as magma, why can't it implant magical items in it's body?

And yes, looking at the rules, it makes them stronger. So? Just balance it with your group's strength, which you would have to do anyway. I assume that it would be accounted for in 4E's version of Challenge Rating.

shadowmage
2010-07-29, 07:42 AM
One possibility is that given their love for gold, they would rather have a large pile of coins to recline in than spend all that on a single powerful magic item.

It's like asking "Would you rather have a +5 vorpal longsword or use the money to live a life of luxury?" In real life, I would actually go for the latter. :smallsmile:

In the 4e Dragon books each type of dragon has it's own favorite treasure. Some like art, some like coins, some like jewlery. So no they might not want to trade a favored treasure for some magic item they might need.

hamishspence
2010-07-29, 07:46 AM
You are basically giving the dragon special abilities for free or transforming regular magic items into no-slot magic items for free. And permanent too.

Not permanent, actually- which is probably why the dragon only does it in time of desperation.

Ianuagonde
2010-07-29, 07:55 AM
When I DM (which is often) my dragons always have a few items at least. They're smart, cunning, and their lair is a like a flame to the magic-item-wearing moths known as adventurers.

If it has 10 Int, it will know it's own basic weaknesses. Lousy touch AC? Ring of protection doesn't hurt. Wearing an amulet of Con +X? Why not? If I know cold damage hurts a lot, I'd look for a Ring of Cold Resistance.

If it knows how it flies, it knows it can't get all the enemies in its breath weapon. Given its speed and maneuverability, it can't target all the groundlings every round. So just use a wand.

My players were very upset when they met the blue dragon from RHoD.
Round 1. Dragon: lightning breath. Cleric/druid/duskblade: resist energy electric, move 20 feet away from each other. Round 2. Dragon: wand of fireballs. Party: No fair! Why don't you use lightning breath?

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-29, 09:17 AM
I don't actually remember seeing anything about dragon's eating magic items in 4e. I'm not saying it isn't there, but it can't really be a major point if it is.

As far as giving them extra abilities in some way goes, however, it has much less of a disruptive influence than it would in previous editions, as you are encouraged to do just that to tailor the creatures, and have nifty and reliable guidelines for how it would actually effect their difficulty.

It also means that, given the way NPC design works and interacts with Items, the only reason you'd ever really want to put a magic item explicitely on a dragon is because you intend it to be noticed, and important and generally plotty, so that when your murderous hobo'sPC's kill the dragon, they don't miss that the item is hella important.

If you simply want to make the dragon more dangerous, or give him more options, then you just do so. You don't need trinkets to do it.

As far as the idea of eating magic items to transfer their power to the dragon, in the context of 3.5, It IS flavourful and fits in some ways a lot better than the idea of them decking themselves out like a rap star in all manner of jewelry.
But given that they are already notoriously under CR'ed, and are assumed NOT to use any of the wealth in their statblock in that way, I can only assume that it is an idea best left to use against highly OP'ed PC's, or DM's who have a very, very good grasp on the actual challenge such a creature would pose.

hamishspence
2010-07-29, 09:21 AM
It's in 4E Draconomicon: Chromatic Dragons- as a way of temporarily granting a dragon the benefits of a weapon- or possibly some other item.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-29, 09:41 AM
So you are ok with a dragon in effect using the abilities from from items that it would not normally be able to use. just by eating them? The concept is ridiculous.

All a dragon would need to do is eat some +5 armor of energy resistance(kind doesn't matter since just the enchantment bonus is confered. Maybe some +5 vorpal claws.

You are basically giving the dragon special abilities for free or transforming regular magic items into no-slot magic items for free. And permanent too.

You know what is ridiculous? An 200 years old Adult Red Dragon failing to use his int16 to defend itself against things that harm them the most. They're not "claw,claw,bite,swipe". They're cunning bastards smarter than most humans would ever be.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-29, 09:43 AM
So you are ok with a dragon in effect using the abilities from from items that it would not normally be able to use. just by eating them? The concept is ridiculous.

All a dragon would need to do is eat some +5 armor of energy resistance(kind doesn't matter since just the enchantment bonus is confered. Maybe some +5 vorpal claws.

You are basically giving the dragon special abilities for free or transforming regular magic items into no-slot magic items for free. And permanent too.

Not at all. Have you read Magic of Incarum? It's sort of like that. Even though there is no actual material, it still occupies one the magical centers your body. Just like you couldn't wear two broaches and get both effects, even though you could obviously wear two broaches in real life.

fryplink
2010-07-29, 09:46 AM
I did a tucker encounter with a weaker dragon, he wore a belt (tho it was used as a braclet) an amulet (around his horn) two rings ( around his whiskers)

only one PC survived, they never killed the dragon, even tho they were level 15 and it was ECL 8-ish

believe it or not in the tunnels of the underdark, wall of stone, sculpt stone and transmute rock to mud, followed by AMF can kill a party faster than anything. He pretty much sealed them into the tunnels and let them suffocate, the survivor was a warforged Sorcerer (didnt need to breathe) who used illusions to make him appear human-ish. The warforged teleported out five days later when the AMF expired the dragon went home, leaving them for dead.

senrath
2010-07-29, 09:50 AM
...you gave it a way to generate an Anti-Magic Field? Of course they didn't survive. Dragons can generally hold their own in melee combat, especially if their opponent is using only masterwork weapons.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-29, 09:52 AM
...you gave it a way to generate an Anti-Magic Field? Of course they didn't survive. Dragons can generally hold their own in melee combat, especially if their opponent is using only masterwork weapons.

Any dragon with caster level 11+ can do that. An old red can do it, for example.

stenver
2010-07-29, 09:53 AM
Let me put it this way: Do you keep your valuables on you at all times? Do you take your passport on your trip to the supermarket?

You did in soviet union. You werent allowed to leave home without your passport. Police could just arrest you whenever they wanted, if you didnt have it.

senrath
2010-07-29, 09:55 AM
Any dragon with caster level 11+ can do that. An old red can do it, for example.

And Old Reds are CR 16. And AMF is an emanation centered around the caster. The item that was given to the dragon in question appears to have stuck the AMF somewhere not around the dragon.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-29, 10:06 AM
How did you center the AMF on the party?

CapnVan
2010-07-29, 10:11 AM
This is a question that goes back a long way. Even in Dragon #98, Tailor Made Treasure made the assumption that dragons would use magic items in their hoard.

Dragons may be vain, egotistical, etc. They are decidedly not stupid.

This is, of course, not valid if you run adventures where the hobgoblins die, never thinking to pick up that +2 sword in the chest they're guarding.

Eldan
2010-07-29, 12:16 PM
How did you center the AMF on the party?

From the description, he first sealed them in, then AMFed them.

fryplink
2010-07-29, 09:01 PM
From the description, he first sealed them in, then AMFed them.

yup, sealed them, AMFed them, then the dragon waited until the AMF expired knowing that if they weren't dead they would kill him, so upon it expiring he left, believing them dead (and being mostly right)

The point was that a weaker dragon with the right magic items make for a tough encounter

Sorry I described the encounter so poorly, I was trying to make a point more than accurately explain a situation

Edited for extra clerity

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-29, 09:09 PM
yup, sealed them, AMFed them, then the dragon waited until the AMF expired knowing that if they weren't dead they would kill him, so upon it expiring he left, believing them dead (and being mostly right)

The point was that a weaker dragon with the right magic items make for a tough encounter

Sorry I described the encounter so poorly, I was trying to make a point more than accurately explain a situation

Edited for extra clerity

Meh, that's not a dragon, that's just a competent spell-caster. It goes back to what I hate about D&D. Even the most legendarily powerful creatures are nothing without casting, and if they do have casting, their non-casting stuff hardly matters. :smallfrown:

fryplink
2010-07-29, 09:19 PM
Meh, that's not a dragon, that's just a competent spell-caster. It goes back to what I hate about D&D. Even the most legendarily powerful creatures are nothing without casting, and if they do have casting, their non-casting stuff hardly matters. :smallfrown:

true I guess, it did use it breath weapon other times during the combat, and kept evading them using flight (15th level PCs not having flight spells or flight items because they're underground, it was ridiculous) but in the end you're probably right anything it did could have been done by a similarly leveled caster

Goonthegoof
2010-07-29, 09:33 PM
Meh, that's not a dragon, that's just a competent spell-caster. It goes back to what I hate about D&D. Even the most legendarily powerful creatures are nothing without casting, and if they do have casting, their non-casting stuff hardly matters. :smallfrown:

Except that without casting or spell like abilities the creature is very very limited in what they can do, which means it would difficult to become legendary or powerful. Really in most magic containing universes the strongest ones are all casters in some way- Hell, even take a show about punching people in the face and all the guys who are stronger than normal humans are casters in some form.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-29, 10:08 PM
Except that without casting or spell like abilities the creature is very very limited in what they can do, which means it would difficult to become legendary or powerful. Really in most magic containing universes the strongest ones are all casters in some way- Hell, even take a show about punching people in the face and all the guys who are stronger than normal humans are casters in some form.

Tarrasque much? One of the most legendary monsters in the book... and it's really quite pathetic at appropriate levels.

Krazddndfreek
2010-07-29, 10:11 PM
If nobody mentioned it yet, there are those tail-bands in dragon magic that dragons can wear. They're not that great, but...

Goonthegoof
2010-07-29, 10:36 PM
Tarrasque much? One of the most legendary monsters in the book... and it's really quite pathetic at appropriate levels.

Which is kind of my point- Whenever there's magic in the setting the top guns will be spellcasters. It's kind of a universal trope, not one limited to D&D. The Tarrasque seems to be an attempt at defying the trope, but as evidenced by the fact that the tarrasue sucks it didn't really work.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-29, 11:34 PM
Which is kind of my point- Whenever there's magic in the setting the top guns will be spellcasters. It's kind of a universal trope, not one limited to D&D. The Tarrasque seems to be an attempt at defying the trope, but as evidenced by the fact that the tarrasue sucks it didn't really work.

Actually, I consider it bad design. There are all sorts of settings where spellcasters (not magic, because that is an entirely different beast) are not top dog. Unfortunately, most people have this strange view that people should only be able to do extraordinary things when there are spells involved. If there is magic in a world, it should not be the realm of only one type of person. It's like saying in modern day settings "okay, only the smart people are allowed to use technology". Magic in a world should be everyone's power, whether it lets them blow up things with their mind, or just go beyond human limits. This is actually something I like about the 'weaboo' manga stuff. Badass people can counter magic. Ray is being fired at you? Reflect it with your sword! This all reminds me of my last ToB thread actually.

Of course, when you go beyond the normal 'hero' level, you get to power levels where people are creating planes of existence and telling reality to shut up. This is where non-spellcasters can't compete anymore, because they are still bound by the laws of physics. So yes, once you become a god, the most legendary and powerful thing, non-casters can't compete, because they have a roof. But games like D&D should never get that far. Once you break out of the "constrained by physics" power level, you need to be playing a different game with a comepletely different approach. But then again, Gods should not be bound by petty things like relying on magic to do what they do. Gods of non-magical things still face of with gods of magic. Once you get to high enough power levels, everything looks like magic. Not because magic = high power, but because high power level are breaking the laws of reality. And who is to say whether the god teleported, or carved his way through space-time with his awesome sword skills?

Closak
2010-07-30, 12:14 PM
About that...

How would you class Cloud Strife in that? (Or any end-game Final Fantasy character for that matter, provided you remove all their spell-casting?)

I mean, remove all the spell casting and you still have a guy who can jump dozens of feet in the air, cleave through huge chunks of concrete in one swing,(And set the edges of the concrete on fire from the sheer force of the cut in the process) survive a bullet to the head at point blank range with no more than a tiny scratch, slaughter the manifestation of a dragon god, and if the baseline* is anything to go by, do more damage with a regular sword swing than the magical equivalent of a nuclear bomb.

Or you know, defeat the guy who was about to rip the planet out of orbit and send it flying into darkspace.

And he didn't have a single Materia on him for any of that, so there was no spell-casting involved in any of those things.

* Baseline: We know that the spell Flare is either A) A magically created and contained nuclear explosion centered around the enemy or B) A fusion reaction centered around the enemy (And for those who don't know, fusion reactions are really freaking hot, like say, the sun)
So we take a look at how much damage that spell can do.
Then we take a look at how much damage a sufficiently leveled Cloud can do with a normal sword swing.

Well damn, the sword swing did more damage than the spell...

And just to add to it, the other characters are also capable of doing that much damage, so now we have Tifa dealing more damage than a nuke with her bare fists...Wait...more damage than a nuke by simply punching someone? (Hmmm) That's saying something about the end-game power levels, and they are even stronger in the movie than they were in the game...:smalleek:

Suddenly, non-casters don't seem so pathetic any more.

Who needs casters when you could theoretically destroy a whole city in a few hours by punching the buildings into oblivion?
Okay, sure, a caster could use AOE effects to take out bigger chunks at a time and thereby do it faster, but still...
Screwed over by the lack of AOE attacks available to non-casters, wonderful.

And now i managed to drift severely off topic...i'm rambling aren't i?
I just shut up now.

Count D20
2010-07-30, 12:56 PM
Of course, when you go beyond the normal 'hero' level, you get to power levels where people are creating planes of existence and telling reality to shut up. This is where non-spellcasters can't compete anymore, because they are still bound by the laws of physics. So yes, once you become a god, the most legendary and powerful thing, non-casters can't compete, because they have a roof. But games like D&D should never get that far. Once you break out of the "constrained by physics" power level, you need to be playing a different game with a comepletely different approach. But then again, Gods should not be bound by petty things like relying on magic to do what they do. Gods of non-magical things still face of with gods of magic. Once you get to high enough power levels, everything looks like magic. Not because magic = high power, but because high power level are breaking the laws of reality. And who is to say whether the god teleported, or carved his way through space-time with his awesome sword skills?

Reminds me of Exalted.
Being so damn good that it doesn't even have to make sense. Like countering knockout gas with pheromones.
Someone channeling willpower, using strength of spirit to succeed on intimidate checks against reality.

Agrippa
2010-07-30, 02:15 PM
About that...

How would you class Cloud Strife in that? (Or any end-game Final Fantasy character for that matter, provided you remove all their spell-casting?)

I mean, remove all the spell casting and you still have a guy who can jump dozens of feet in the air, cleave through huge chunks of concrete in one swing,(And set the edges of the concrete on fire from the sheer force of the cut in the process) survive a bullet to the head at point blank range with no more than a tiny scratch, slaughter the manifestation of a dragon god, and if the baseline* is anything to go by, do more damage with a regular sword swing than the magical equivalent of a nuclear bomb.

Or you know, defeat the guy who was about to rip the planet out of orbit and send it flying into darkspace.

And he didn't have a single Materia on him for any of that, so there was no spell-casting involved in any of those things.

* Baseline: We know that the spell Flare is either A) A magically created and contained nuclear explosion centered around the enemy or B) A fusion reaction centered around the enemy (And for those who don't know, fusion reactions are really freaking hot, like say, the sun)
So we take a look at how much damage that spell can do.
Then we take a look at how much damage a sufficiently leveled Cloud can do with a normal sword swing.

Well damn, the sword swing did more damage than the spell...

And just to add to it, the other characters are also capable of doing that much damage, so now we have Tifa dealing more damage than a nuke with her bare fists...Wait...more damage than a nuke by simply punching someone? (Hmmm) That's saying something about the end-game power levels, and they are even stronger in the movie than they were in the game...:smalleek:

Suddenly, non-casters don't seem so pathetic any more.

Who needs casters when you could theoretically destroy a whole city in a few hours by punching the buildings into oblivion?
Okay, sure, a caster could use AOE effects to take out bigger chunks at a time and thereby do it faster, but still...
Screwed over by the lack of AOE attacks available to non-casters, wonderful.

And now i managed to drift severely off topic...i'm rambling aren't i?
I just shut up now.

Frankly I'd place the cast of Final Fantasy VII in the superhero tier. Meaning that they're roughly the equivalent of the Avengers, the Justice League, The Authority or the X-Men. That makes them on par with Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Zatanna, Captain America, The Hulk, Iron Man, Doctor Strange, Midnighter, Apollo, The Engineer, Cyclops, Wolverine, Jean Grey, Doctor Henry McCoy A.K.A. Beast, Kitty Pride and more.

{table=head]Tier|Levels/CRs|Examples
Gritty|1-5|Movie Conan, Kane, Indiana Jones
Pulp Heroic|6-10|XLG, Luther Arkwright, Judge Dredd, Lord of the Rings, The n Musketeers
Wuxia|11-15|Crouching Tiger, Hero, Nemesis the Warlock
Superhero|16-20|Justice League, The Authority
[Godlike|21+|Thor, Chronicles of Amber, Sandman][/Table]

Closak
2010-07-30, 04:52 PM
There's one problem with that table though.

According to it Xykon would classify as Godlike.
Which he is quite decidely not.


Also, a little elaboration on my earlier post, in a spoiler this time

During the Bahamut fight, if we go with the assumption that Flare is a fusion reaction then, knowing that Bahamut uses upgraded versions of the normal Flare as his breath weapon, this means that Bahamut shot a MINIATURE SUN at Cloud.

A blue miniature sun at that, and we know what blue fire means.

What Cloud does is to go flying right through the center of it, absorb the energy into his sword, and then use it to tear Bahamut a new one.
And afterwards he doesn't have a scratch on him.

And at the time he was weakened by the Geostigma.
So we have a weakened Cloud surviving a trek through a miniature sun without a scratch, and absorbing it into his blade and using it to kill freaking Bahamut.

If we assume the other version of Flare then it's still a big ongoing nuclear explosion.

Skip forward to when he's facing Sephiroth, with his Geostigma cured Cloud is now able to fight with his full strenght again.

And he ends up being hopelessly outmatched.

Here's what happens during the fight with Sephiroth:

When Sephiroth waves his hand to darken the sky, that darkness is actually the corrupted lifestream of all those killed by the Geostigma, their souls now under Sephiroth's control.
So while they are fighting the corrupted lifestream is reaching down like dark tentacles from the sky to grasp the planet, meaning to tear it out of orbit.

This means that not only is Cloud facing an overwhelming foe, but he also has a time limit, he only has so long before the corrupted lifestream manages to rip the planet out of it's orbit, and when that happens it will all be over, bye-bye sun and hello darkspace and cold vacuum, everyone dies.

Incidentally, this puts Sephiroth into the "Planet Killer" category.

And during the fight, notice how Sephiroth doesn't use any of his abilites except for flying and that one time where he used his mind to collapse the top part of the Shinra building?

That's right, he's intentionally holding himself back, restricting himself to using only his sword and flying.
The reason for this is to draw the fight out for as long as possible in order to inflict as much pain on Cloud as possible, he doesn't want to kill Cloud immeadietally, he wants him to suffer first, and therefore he toys around with Cloud like a cat with a mouse instead of taking any of the various opportunites to just kill Cloud right then and there.

And meanwhile Cloud is using every bit of power he has, he's pushing himself literally to the limit, struggling harder than ever before, and it just isn't enough, he can't land a single hit, Sephiroth just plays with him.
Yes, the guy who basically curbstomped the physical form of the god of dragonkind while handicapped is getting his rear handed to him while at full power.

Now let's look at the Extended version of the movie.
Cloud, being utterly exhausted by then, desperately tries using the original Omnislash, problem is that Sephiroth has seen it before and knows how to counter it.
The result is Cloud missing every hit and then being stabbed in mid-air, then utterly brutalized, stabbed several times through various parts of his body, one of which went through his foot and into his knee for the record. And then when he tries to grab the Masamune like he did back in Nibelheim the first time he fought Sephiroth he get's thrown to the ground with enough force to leave a crater in the ground.

Cue motivational speech from beyond the grave, followed by the new and improved Omnislash.

So Sephiroth blocks the first hit and smirks.
Then gasps in surprise when Cloud's sword splits into about a dozen or so smaller swords and surrounds him.
He's never seen that move before, and as such doesn't know how to counter it.

When Cloud then starts moving so fast that the eye can't keep up Sephiroth manages to block the second hit and almost the third before his defenses is overwhelmed, after which he takes several of those 'Hits harder than a nuke' blows from every possible angle in a very short span of time.

Cue the realization that Kadaj's body, on which Sephiroth is depending to maintain a physical presence, was utterly ruined by the assault, forcing Sephiroth to abandon it and return to the lifestream again.

Sephiroth could take it, Kadaj couldn't, and since Kadaj's body was needed for Sephiroth to remain on the physical plane...bye-bye Sephiroth, stay where you belong!

And with him no longer present, the corrupted lifestream dissipates before it can finish it's job of tearing the planet out of orbit.

Then Cloud get's shot in the back and then hit with multiple spells at the same time, courtesy of the now dying Yazoo and Loz.
The result of casting so many spells at the same time takes the form of a really freaking big explosion.
And with the condition he was in after fighting Sephiroth...ouch.

That leads to the scene where Aeris tells Cloud that he doesn't belong with them yet, followed by Cloud waking up on the flower bed in the church surrounded by his friends.

And we still don't know the full extent of Sephiroth's power, because he was so intent on not using it just so he could torment Cloud some more (Which was what lead to his defeat)

...Okay, a lot of elaboration.

But really, it's amazing what some thorough analyzis will tell you about the power levels involved.

Runestar
2010-07-30, 06:02 PM
I think there is a disconnect between "power level" as in how challenging it is against a group of appropriately levelled PCs, and "power level" in sheer destructive power.

True, a tarrasque would be quite deadly in that left uncheck, it can cause rampant devastation and level entire cities, even though a lv20 party can finish it off with relative ease.

Eldan
2010-07-30, 06:15 PM
Though a level 20 caster can level several cities per day. Just saying.

I mean, Storm of Vengeance is kinda crappy for a 9th level spell if you think about duels, but it levels cities just fine.

And, well, if Xykon actually invested some XP and gold into epic spellcasting, he could easily give some of the weaker gods a decent challenge.

Agrippa
2010-07-30, 06:48 PM
Godlike can include anything powerful enough to approach godhood or demi-godhood. Xykon is demi-god like in power. I'd say that would also be true for Sephiroth in both Rebirth and Seraph modes. Besides, The Authority, The Justice League, The Avenger and The X-Men have faced Sephiroth level and above threats before. What would you call General Zod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Zod), Darkseid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkseid), Apocalypse (http://marvel.com/universe/Apocalypse_(En_Sabah_Nur)) and Seth (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Seth_Cowie_(Earth-50))?

Closak
2010-07-31, 12:51 PM
One last note.

Sephiroth could be divided into four different stages, as outlined in the spoiler below.

Pre-Nibelheim: At this point he's basically a level 20 character with a somewhat overpowered Prestige Class and a bunch of very overpowered spell-like abilities (Sin Heartless Angel anyone? The one that destroys all your spell slots for the day and drops your Hit Points to 1 if it goes through, with no way of dodging or protecting yourself against it other than preventing him from casting it in the first place)

He's basically a living legend, a nigh invulnerable master swordsman and a powerful caster at the same time.
A man who can face armies and come out on top, capable of things that most people can't even begin to imagine.

Let's see here, he takes a direct hit from a dragons breath weapon and doesn't lose a single hit point from it, survives things that would be lethal even by Final Fantasy standards, and casually slaughters anything that goes near him with a flick of the wrist.

Also, when he burned down Nibelheim, notice that Zack runs after him immediatally and can't be that far behind him, yet when he comes out of the mansion the whole town is already a raging inferno.
That was fast.
Frankly, i wouldn't be surprised if he torched the whole town with one spell, he does have a All Materia linked to his Fire Materia after all, how else could he torch everything that quickly?

And then he beats the living hell out of Zack, once again without a visible scratch on him.

His defeat can be summed up as the following.
Cloud Strife the mook sneaks up on him while he's busy worshipping Jenova, Surprise Round.
Cloud Strife the first level mook proceeds to roll a triple natural 20, further enhanched by modifiers added due to sheer anger (It's called the Power Of Hatred for a reason)
Sephiroth survives and proceeds to skewer Cloud through the heart, dropping him way into the negatives.

However, the sheer hatred Cloud is filled with at this point keeps him alive long enough to make a Grapple check, more natural 20's, and Sephiroth get's thrown over the edge into the reactor core, kinda like what happened to Palpatine in the last Star Wars movie.

Killed by a first level mook, how embarrasing.

Cloud's corpse is then picked up by Hojo, and revived using SCIENCE!
Side effects include: Severe mako poisoning, delusional belief in things that are not true, heavy memory loss, becoming vulnerable to Mind Rape, among others.


Post-Nibelheim: Sephiroth spends years drifting through the lifestream, absorbing the knowledge of countless dead, essentially gaining access to all the knowledge ever possessed by a living being, restricting what he doesn't know to things that are only known by those who are still among the living.
Basically, all of history is laid bare before him, filling him with knowledge, and you know what they say about knowledge being power.

This also gives him the ability to cast magic without Materia.

He also learns how to control Jenova, and eventually how to manifest his own presence into her body, which he does, breaking out of the Shinra tower and turning it into a giant slaughter house in the process.
So now we have Sephiroth walking around in Jenova's body.

He basically merges with Jenova, turning them into a single creature, which also gives him access to all of her power, making him far stronger than before (For the record, Jenova is basically Lavos without the time travel)

To make matters worse, Jenova was mostly mindless, a creature of instinct rather than thought.
Sephiroth changed that when he took over, with his human intelligence and military training and experience he is able to use her power far more effectively than Jenova ever could on her own.
Word Of God describes this process as Sephiroth "Becoming the next step in Jenova's evolution" He basically becomes the controlling core of their joined existence.

Then you have the final battle of the game, where the heroes are now themselves around level 20 or so.
During the battle, Sephiroth is using a large amount of power to prevent Holy from doing what it is supposed to, he is basically single-handedly holding back the planets ultimate defense mechanism while simultaneously fighting a pack of 20'th level heroes.
And then he goes and expends even more power on being flashy and intimidating.

Long story short, his Supernova attack is in fact a big illusion on a massive scale, the actual attack is the explosion at the very end, the rest is just an illusion he put there in order to say "I Am God" with images instead of words.

Also, the whole battlefield during the Seraph stage is also an illusion created by him to give off the image that they are fighting outside the gates of heaven, further adding to the Seraphic Angel theme he choose to manifest as.

Not to mention that the thing you are fighting is literally a physical manifestation of his willpower, you are fighting his mind.


Advent Children: Unfortunately for the heroes, killing him a second time just made him even more powerful.

With his mind shattered and his body destroyed, in order to avoid being absorbed by the lifestream he focuses on the more important parts of his being, throwing off all the weak and unneccesary parts of his personality (These thrown off parts would later take physical shape as the Remnants, Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz, kinda like the Gi, but looking like relatively normal humans rather than walking corpses)

Sephiroth then manages to pull himself back together by focusing on these core aspects of him and using people's memories of him as a crutch of sorts.

So now he is literally a being made entirely out of thoughts and memories.
A living concept.

And since you can't kill a concept...

He has ascended to a completely new level of existence that no other being in the setting has ever achieved before.

Point is, as long as a single soul, whether dead or alive, remembers that he exists, he will continue to exist, making him truly unkillable.

It also allows him to draw more power from the thoughts and memories of him, as well as gaining even more power when the Geostigma starts killing people and putting their souls under his control.

So now he just needs a physical presence, and would you look at that, those cast off weak parts of his being just absorbed a part of Jenova.
Manifestation ensues, leading to the battle at the end of the movie.

And at this point, he already has control over a large enough amount of the lifestream to affect the planets orbit if given some time.
The conclusion that leads to is that the Geostigma has killed A LOT of people.

True, he loses due to being to determined to toy with Cloud, but he really wasn't kidding when he said that he will never truly be gone.

You know what a living concept translates to?
That's right, a God.


Hypothetical Sephiroth: This final category is basically what he could eventually become if he is ever successful with his plans.

Now, his goal is basically to kill the planet, absorb the souls of everything, including the planet itself, and find another planet on which he can restart life from scratch with himself as supreme god.

But if he ever decides that ruling just one world isn't enough...oh dear :smalleek:

And when you consider that at this point he has complete control over the dead husks of any planet he has absorbed...
My point is that he could use the whole planet as a giant projectile to ram you with due to having such control over it's flight path.
Use planet A to ram planet B, then absorb planet B as well, then go looking for planet C and repeat, eventually ending up with a whole fleet of dead planets that can be used as ammunition.

And then there's the whole thing with how absorbing more lifestream would increase his power even further.

See why it's so important to stop him BEFORE he is successful?
Kefka could still be beaten even after he was successful, with Sephiroth you don't have the luxury of a second chance.
Kefka only became the source of all magic, Sephiroth would basically become the source of life, thoughts and memories, with the ability to take it away at a whim due to him BEING your life, he literally is your soul, so if he decides to just leave your body then you simply die right then and there.

Ummm...anyone have any ideas for how one would go about combating this hypothetical stage?

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-31, 05:34 PM
Ummm...anyone have any ideas for how one would go about combating this hypothetical stage?

How to combat this hypothetical stage?
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2046/22jb7.jpg
WITH MY DRILL!
Seriously, Who the Hell do you think I am?

Agrippa
2010-07-31, 06:24 PM
One last note.

Sephiroth could be divided into four different stages, as outlined in the spoiler below.

Pre-Nibelheim: At this point he's basically a level 20 character with a somewhat overpowered Prestige Class and a bunch of very overpowered spell-like abilities (Sin Heartless Angel anyone? The one that destroys all your spell slots for the day and drops your Hit Points to 1 if it goes through, with no way of dodging or protecting yourself against it other than preventing him from casting it in the first place)

He's basically a living legend, a nigh invulnerable master swordsman and a powerful caster at the same time.
A man who can face armies and come out on top, capable of things that most people can't even begin to imagine.

Let's see here, he takes a direct hit from a dragons breath weapon and doesn't lose a single hit point from it, survives things that would be lethal even by Final Fantasy standards, and casually slaughters anything that goes near him with a flick of the wrist.

Also, when he burned down Nibelheim, notice that Zack runs after him immediatally and can't be that far behind him, yet when he comes out of the mansion the whole town is already a raging inferno.
That was fast.
Frankly, i wouldn't be surprised if he torched the whole town with one spell, he does have a All Materia linked to his Fire Materia after all, how else could he torch everything that quickly?

And then he beats the living hell out of Zack, once again without a visible scratch on him.

His defeat can be summed up as the following.
Cloud Strife the mook sneaks up on him while he's busy worshipping Jenova, Surprise Round.
Cloud Strife the first level mook proceeds to roll a triple natural 20, further enhanched by modifiers added due to sheer anger (It's called the Power Of Hatred for a reason)
Sephiroth survives and proceeds to skewer Cloud through the heart, dropping him way into the negatives.

However, the sheer hatred Cloud is filled with at this point keeps him alive long enough to make a Grapple check, more natural 20's, and Sephiroth get's thrown over the edge into the reactor core, kinda like what happened to Palpatine in the last Star Wars movie.

Killed by a first level mook, how embarrasing.

Cloud's corpse is then picked up by Hojo, and revived using SCIENCE!
Side effects include: Severe mako poisoning, delusional belief in things that are not true, heavy memory loss, becoming vulnerable to Mind Rape, among others.


Post-Nibelheim: Sephiroth spends years drifting through the lifestream, absorbing the knowledge of countless dead, essentially gaining access to all the knowledge ever possessed by a living being, restricting what he doesn't know to things that are only known by those who are still among the living.
Basically, all of history is laid bare before him, filling him with knowledge, and you know what they say about knowledge being power.

This also gives him the ability to cast magic without Materia.

He also learns how to control Jenova, and eventually how to manifest his own presence into her body, which he does, breaking out of the Shinra tower and turning it into a giant slaughter house in the process.
So now we have Sephiroth walking around in Jenova's body.

He basically merges with Jenova, turning them into a single creature, which also gives him access to all of her power, making him far stronger than before (For the record, Jenova is basically Lavos without the time travel)

To make matters worse, Jenova was mostly mindless, a creature of instinct rather than thought.
Sephiroth changed that when he took over, with his human intelligence and military training and experience he is able to use her power far more effectively than Jenova ever could on her own.
Word Of God describes this process as Sephiroth "Becoming the next step in Jenova's evolution" He basically becomes the controlling core of their joined existence.

Then you have the final battle of the game, where the heroes are now themselves around level 20 or so.
During the battle, Sephiroth is using a large amount of power to prevent Holy from doing what it is supposed to, he is basically single-handedly holding back the planets ultimate defense mechanism while simultaneously fighting a pack of 20'th level heroes.
And then he goes and expends even more power on being flashy and intimidating.

Long story short, his Supernova attack is in fact a big illusion on a massive scale, the actual attack is the explosion at the very end, the rest is just an illusion he put there in order to say "I Am God" with images instead of words.

Also, the whole battlefield during the Seraph stage is also an illusion created by him to give off the image that they are fighting outside the gates of heaven, further adding to the Seraphic Angel theme he choose to manifest as.

Not to mention that the thing you are fighting is literally a physical manifestation of his willpower, you are fighting his mind.


Advent Children: Unfortunately for the heroes, killing him a second time just made him even more powerful.

With his mind shattered and his body destroyed, in order to avoid being absorbed by the lifestream he focuses on the more important parts of his being, throwing off all the weak and unneccesary parts of his personality (These thrown off parts would later take physical shape as the Remnants, Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz, kinda like the Gi, but looking like relatively normal humans rather than walking corpses)

Sephiroth then manages to pull himself back together by focusing on these core aspects of him and using people's memories of him as a crutch of sorts.

So now he is literally a being made entirely out of thoughts and memories.
A living concept.

And since you can't kill a concept...

He has ascended to a completely new level of existence that no other being in the setting has ever achieved before.

Point is, as long as a single soul, whether dead or alive, remembers that he exists, he will continue to exist, making him truly unkillable.

It also allows him to draw more power from the thoughts and memories of him, as well as gaining even more power when the Geostigma starts killing people and putting their souls under his control.

So now he just needs a physical presence, and would you look at that, those cast off weak parts of his being just absorbed a part of Jenova.
Manifestation ensues, leading to the battle at the end of the movie.

And at this point, he already has control over a large enough amount of the lifestream to affect the planets orbit if given some time.
The conclusion that leads to is that the Geostigma has killed A LOT of people.

True, he loses due to being to determined to toy with Cloud, but he really wasn't kidding when he said that he will never truly be gone.

You know what a living concept translates to?
That's right, a God.


Hypothetical Sephiroth: This final category is basically what he could eventually become if he is ever successful with his plans.

Now, his goal is basically to kill the planet, absorb the souls of everything, including the planet itself, and find another planet on which he can restart life from scratch with himself as supreme god.

But if he ever decides that ruling just one world isn't enough...oh dear :smalleek:

And when you consider that at this point he has complete control over the dead husks of any planet he has absorbed...
My point is that he could use the whole planet as a giant projectile to ram you with due to having such control over it's flight path.
Use planet A to ram planet B, then absorb planet B as well, then go looking for planet C and repeat, eventually ending up with a whole fleet of dead planets that can be used as ammunition.

And then there's the whole thing with how absorbing more lifestream would increase his power even further.

See why it's so important to stop him BEFORE he is successful?
Kefka could still be beaten even after he was successful, with Sephiroth you don't have the luxury of a second chance.
Kefka only became the source of all magic, Sephiroth would basically become the source of life, thoughts and memories, with the ability to take it away at a whim due to him BEING your life, he literally is your soul, so if he decides to just leave your body then you simply die right then and there.

Ummm...anyone have any ideas for how one would go about combating this hypothetical stage?

How would you combat the likes of Darkseid or Nekron? That's how. By the way, DC did manage to kill of Darkseid for good.