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Origomar
2010-07-27, 12:17 PM
found this funny thing while looking for something else.

sorry if its old i have no clue lol.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20

AtopTheMountain
2010-07-27, 12:19 PM
Yeah, this is pretty old, and comes up in pretty much every discussion about katanas as a joke.

Morph Bark
2010-07-27, 12:22 PM
It's pretty old. Also, those stats don't even come close to the real power of the katana. I should know what I'm talking about, having seen it in action myself. If swung fast enough they spontaneously generate fire and lightning and thunder and can rip the soul from your body without even touching you, or sever all your arteries while not leaving a single visible wound on your body.

Caphi
2010-07-27, 12:24 PM
Man, I was expecting the actual entire copypasta. Way to disappoint, playground.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-07-27, 12:26 PM
It's pretty old. Also, those stats don't even come close to the real power of the katana. I should know what I'm talking about, having seen it in action myself. If swung fast enough they spontaneously generate fire and lightning and thunder and can rip the soul from your body without even touching you, or sever all your arteries while not leaving a single visible wound on your body.

And that's in the hands of a relative amateur. :smalleek:

The Glyphstone
2010-07-27, 12:29 PM
I was mildly pleased by my successful copypasta of Bowie Knives Are Underpowered a couple months back, but yeah, old news.

Jeivar
2010-07-27, 12:30 PM
O-kay.

Was the first entry the genuine ignorant rantings of a pathetic nerd and the others were put up to make fun of him, or was the entire thing a joke?

Seriously though, there was nothing special about katanas. They were folded so many times because of the crappy iron in Japan, not to make them supernatural.

Prime32
2010-07-27, 12:32 PM
That's it. I'm sick of all this "old meme" bull**** that's going on in the playground right now. Threads deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine thread in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my thread.

GitP users spend years working on a single thread and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest posts known to mankind.

GitP threads are thrice as sharp as WotC threads and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a WotC thread can cut through, a GitP thread can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a GitP thread could easily bisect a troll wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why Wizards never bothered conquering GitP? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined mods and their mind control, citizen. Even in World War II, Wizards of the Coast employees targeted the OotS fans first because their posting power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? GitP threads are simply the best threads that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for GitP threads:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of threads in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = GitP threads need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

Vitruviansquid
2010-07-27, 12:33 PM
I was aware the quality of Japanese iron was quite good, but the simple fact was that spears (and later guns) were much better than swords for actually killing people on a battlefield.

Morph Bark
2010-07-27, 12:34 PM
And that's in the hands of a relative amateur. :smalleek:

Not even a relative amateur. Relative amateurs can have their katanas speak to the forces of relativity and can create nuclear explosions at will by having their katana strike anything with molecules in it. Professionals can even do this without those being present. They can cause novas in vaccuum. Experts? Why, you just got yourself a Big Bang.

First time you use a katana, you rip souls and cause miniature storms. Second time? Nukes. Then you turn into a Wizard. A Super Wizard.

true_shinken
2010-07-27, 12:35 PM
I was aware the quality of Japanese iron was quite good, but the simple fact was that spears (and later guns) were much better than swords for actually killing people on a battlefield.

You are right. When it comes to cutting things, katanas are really good. Cutting things is just not the best way to kill people, though.

Origomar
2010-07-27, 12:36 PM
aw i feel like a noob now.

Beelzebub1111
2010-07-27, 12:45 PM
All weapons that cannot harm Rakshassa are weak.

Mongoose87
2010-07-27, 12:49 PM
I think this is an appropriate time to plug this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157817&highlight=katana) awesome PrC

squishycube
2010-07-27, 01:30 PM
aw i feel like a noob now.

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Titans in the Playground" bull**** that's going on GitP Boards right now. Origomar deserves much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine Origomar in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with him for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my Origomar.
Japanese smiths spend years working on a single Origomar and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest posters known to mankind.
Origomars are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a Titan can cut through, a Origomar can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a Origomar could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.
Ever wonder why medieval GitP never bothered conquering Origomar? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Origomar and their Origomars of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the Origomar first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Origomars are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Origomars:
(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork
(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork
Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Origomars in real life, don't you think?
tl;dr = Origomars need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

Thanks for pointing this out, I hadn't heard of it before :-)

CarpeGuitarrem
2010-07-27, 02:02 PM
XD!!! That was amazing.

Also, my favorite...
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Summer Glau" bull**** that's going on in the d20 system right now. River Tams deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine River Tam from a secret alliance lab for 20,000 Cashey Money (10,000 platinum or 15,000 credits) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even smash solid reavers with my river tam

insane Alliance scientists spend hours working on a single river tam and mess with its dreams up to a million times to produce the deadliest human psychic weapons known to mankind.

river tams are thrice as powerful as common summer glaus and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a summer glau can smash through, a river tam can break through better. I'm pretty sure such river tam could easily break a reaver ship into component pieces given a few minutes and a Fruity Oaty Bar commercial.

Ever wonder why The Alliance never bothered conquering Serenity? That's right, they were too scared to fight the River Tam. Even in The Final Showdown, Reavers targeted the men with the River Tams first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? River Tams are simply the deadliest weapons that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for River Tams:

(Superior melee Weapon)
4d12 base damage
+20 psychic bonus
+10 universal hotness bonus
High crit, versatile, activatable by secret Alliance military code

Now that seems a lot more representative of raw power of River Tams in real life, don't you think?

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-27, 02:08 PM
Quick, remove the link! Before He sees it!

But seriously, I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to link to 1d4chan.

LurkerInPlayground
2010-07-27, 02:19 PM
I was aware the quality of Japanese iron was quite good, but the simple fact was that spears (and later guns) were much better than swords for actually killing people on a battlefield.
I thought it was supposed to be quite poor, Japan being the mineral-poor dirtball that it is.

If anything, the "folding a thousand times" thing was a necessary measure to offset the low quality of the iron ore.

Ormagoden
2010-07-27, 02:24 PM
Quick, remove the link! Before He sees it!

But seriously, I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to link to 1d4chan.

I second this, although I personally like the site, I don't think you should be linking to it.


It also kinda makes you look trollish, no offense.


PS. I'm astonished how many people have fallen for this so far...

IT'S A TRAP.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-27, 02:25 PM
...who's falling for what? All we're doing is making fun of the old, tired meme.

Coplantor
2010-07-27, 02:26 PM
I was aware the quality of Japanese iron was quite good, but the simple fact was that spears (and later guns) were much better than swords for actually killing people on a battlefield.

AFAIK, japanese iron was of poor quality, that's why they had to come up with the forgng techniques that lead to the development ofthe katana

jiriku
2010-07-27, 02:26 PM
Quick, remove the link! Before He sees it!

But seriously, I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to link to 1d4chan.

It is sufficient to link to the katana master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157817). It's not widely known, but a well-maintained katana is so sharp that if the light reflected from the pearly white teeth of a smiling epic-level katana master should strike the edge of the weapon, it undergoes a lasing effect that causes the katana to emit death rays in all directions to strike down his foes. Now that's a sharp weapon!

Worira
2010-07-27, 02:28 PM
Yeah, Japanese iron was terrible. Japanese steel was, at least in certain cases, of very high quality, but by no means unique.

Ormagoden
2010-07-27, 02:28 PM
Except for the people who, you know, who don't know it's troll bait.

ericgrau
2010-07-27, 02:29 PM
The wiki continues to several more examples...


Women are Underpowered in D20
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Man" bull**** that's going on in the d20 system right now. Women deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine woman in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with her for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with her teeth.
Lol.

Japanese iron was poor quality and full of impurities but the folding process removed those impurities to make it good quality. That's it.

Bayar
2010-07-27, 02:42 PM
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Halberd" bullcrap that's going on in the d20 system right now. Bec de Corbin's deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine bec de corbin in France for 2,400 euros (that's about $3000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my bec de corbin.

French smiths spend years working on a single bec de corbin and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest weapon heads known to mankind.

Bec de corbins are thrice as sharp as European halberds and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a halberd can cut through, a bec de corbin can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a bec de corbin could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering France? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined knight bannerets and their bec de corbins of destruction. Even in World War II, German soldiers targeted the men with the bec de corbins first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Bec de corbins are simply the best polearms that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Bec de corbins:

(One-Handed Exotic Bec de corbin)
1d12 Damage (piercing or bludgeoning)
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage (piercing and bludgeoning)
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Bec de corbins in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Bec de corbins need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

Keld Denar
2010-07-27, 02:53 PM
tl;dr = Bec de corbins need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

We seem to be fresh out of Bec de Corbin. Can I interest you in a nice Ranseur? A Partesian perhaps?

gomipile
2010-07-27, 02:58 PM
Quick, remove the link! Before He sees it!

But seriously, I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to link to 1d4chan.

I just looked at the rules, and linking to art is always allowed. Matters of taste aside, that article on 1d4chan is by definition a work of art, so....

true_shinken
2010-07-27, 02:58 PM
Japanese iron was poor quality and full of impurities but the folding process removed those impurities to make it good quality. That's it.

Not exactly. Sand iron itself is poor material, it has got nothing to do with being japanese or not. The vikings also used the folding process, and they were even more advanced than the japanese at that.
What makes katanas special is not only the folding process (sice it is not even necessary after 1450 when you didn't need to use iron sand). Katanas were very effective weapons. Don't let the hype drive you into thinking they were magical but also don't give in to useless xenophobia and admit their usefulness.

ericgrau
2010-07-27, 02:59 PM
I was trying to be neutral. As in they're yet another good sword, but not necessarily the best.

true_shinken
2010-07-27, 03:02 PM
I was trying to be neutral. As in they're yet another good sword, but not necessarily the best.

So I agree with you, sir.

Frog Dragon
2010-07-27, 03:02 PM
I made about this a while back. It got six-gunned. I anticipate this one will be too.

Oslecamo
2010-07-27, 03:07 PM
The wiki continues to several more examples...


You never readed japanese manga?

Your main character may be able to fight giant robots and shrugg off bullets with his bare fists, but if he catches a glimpse of the girl's panties said girl will b**** slap him into next week steel-hard skin or not.:smalltongue:

And of course those are the girls whitout any actual martial training. In mangaverse an army of male war veterans is a bump on the road, but if a woman appears with any kind of weapon and knows how to hold it, you better get serious. :smalleek:

Coplantor
2010-07-27, 03:08 PM
I was trying to be neutral. As in they're yet another good sword, but not necessarily the best.

Indeed, they were good, and a piece of art, just not Hollywood Good. Europe had incredible swords too, and damascus iron swords were top quality.

true_shinken
2010-07-27, 03:10 PM
Indeed, they were good, and a piece of art, just not Hollywood Good. Europe had incredible swords too, and damascus iron swords were top quality.

But one has to admit - european swords as a role were built for fighting armored opponents and did not cut very well. The katana, though, is very poor against armored targets but cuts a lot better. Then again, I don't think this is a topic for this forum.

Lupian
2010-07-27, 03:21 PM
This is getting out of control... anyway, some of these 'quotes' were hilarious, so im going to try one too(will probably suck)

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork kitty" bull**** that's going on in the d20 system right now. cats deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine cat in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my cat.

Japanese groomers spend years working on a single cat and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Cats are thrice as sharp as European dogs and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a dog can cut through, a Cat can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a Vat could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Pet shops and their Cats of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the Cats first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Cats are simply the best Blade that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Cats:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Cats in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Cats need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

Edit: Crap, there's already a cat joke...

LurkerInPlayground
2010-07-27, 03:26 PM
But one has to admit - european swords as a role were built for fighting armored opponents and did not cut very well. The katana, though, is very poor against armored targets but cuts a lot better. Then again, I don't think this is a topic for this forum.
Edged weapons in general, just don't do that well against plated steel; and that is simply going to be true no matter how you design a sword.

The cutting power of the katana is vastly overrated. If anything, the speed and ease of the cutting action probably matters more than the actual sharpness of the katana. Unarmored people are going to lose limbs to a sword either way while good armor will defeat a cut more often than not.

TheOOB
2010-07-27, 03:46 PM
The katana vs western sword argument isn't entirely fair. Japan has crappy iron reserves, so they save their best stuff(which isn't very good by western standards) for the swordmasters to make katanas out of. Good iron is fairly common in western Europe, so they didn't need to save it for a master swordsmith. Ergo, a common broadsword is likely inferior to a common katana, but a master broadsword will be comparable.

That said, I'd take a straight double-edged blade over a curved single edged blade any day, a slightly sharper cutting edge isn't all that great if your sword breaks in half.

Hawriel
2010-07-27, 03:46 PM
Funny Stuff.

I truely laughed at the ERPPCs are over powerd.

Ormagoden
2010-07-27, 03:55 PM
I just looked at the rules, and linking to art is always allowed. Matters of taste aside, that article on 1d4chan is by definition a work of art, so....

Except that in this case the art is accompanied by porno adds on the sidebars...

Bayar
2010-07-27, 04:02 PM
Except that in this case the art is accompanied by porno adds on the sidebars...

Well I dont see any porno adds on the wiki...

Spiryt
2010-07-27, 04:08 PM
Indeed, they were good, and a piece of art, just not Hollywood Good. Europe had incredible swords too, and damascus iron swords were top quality.

There isn't even something like damascus iron, it's damascus steel, and "top quality" is very broad thing.

Generally people give way too much fuss about whole material thing, you can do absolute crap from the "best" material, leaving alone fact that in all spectrum of hardness, structure, etc, there're no things like "better" or "worse", only different, and thus possibly better suited for certain things.

AFAIK katanas were fairly uniform trough the centuries, so one may generally say that they were short, one edged, somewhat thick swords with slight curve, generally with very hard edge (the hardness of rest varied) generally "dead" harmonically....

And so on. Someone better than me about it can go on, making many points about how such stuff would result in actual usage, but "better" or "worse" is stuff suitable for D&D, not real life.


But one has to admit - european swords as a role were built for fighting armored opponents and did not cut very well. The katana, though, is very poor against armored targets but cuts a lot better. Then again, I don't think this is a topic for this forum.

Up to the XIII century most swords weren't built for armored combat at all.

They had thin, broad, flexible blades, with round tips for tip cuts, and were generally meat cleavers.

Later we're getting different story, but you generalization is anyway unusable.

super dark33
2010-07-27, 04:33 PM
katanas are supposed to be decapitateing mastework basterd sword +5

Spiryt
2010-07-27, 04:34 PM
katanas are supposed to be decapitateing mastework basterd sword +5

Of Antioch!! :smallbiggrin:

super dark33
2010-07-27, 04:43 PM
no, katanas cut through hard stuff (+5),only swordmasters make them (masterwork) and can slice up to 3 humens in a good strike (decapitating0

Psyx
2010-07-27, 04:56 PM
TJapan has crappy iron reserves, so they save their best stuff(which isn't very good by western standards) for the swordmasters to make katanas out of. Good iron is fairly common in western Europe, so they didn't need to save it for a master swordsmith.

More: We invented blast furnaces. They didn't. Same upshot.

PersonMan
2010-07-27, 05:45 PM
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Sixgun" bullcrap that's going on in the d20 system right now. Roland St. Jude deserves much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine Roland St. Jude in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my Roland St. Jude.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single Roland St. Jude and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Roland St. Jude are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a Roland St. Jude can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a Roland St. Jude could easily bisect a spammer wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why spammers never bothered conquering GiTP? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined moderators and their Roland St. Judes of destruction. Even in World War II, spammer soldiers targeted the men with the Roland St. Judes first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Roland St. Judes are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Roland St. Judes:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Roland St. Judes in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Roland St. Judes need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

Analytica
2010-07-27, 07:03 PM
Not exactly. Sand iron itself is poor material, it has got nothing to do with being japanese or not. The vikings also used the folding process, and they were even more advanced than the japanese at that.
What makes katanas special is not only the folding process (sice it is not even necessary after 1450 when you didn't need to use iron sand). Katanas were very effective weapons. Don't let the hype drive you into thinking they were magical but also don't give in to useless xenophobia and admit their usefulness.

Not to derail too far anything, but are you sure about viking blacksmiths using similar folding techniques? I am no expert, but I've spoken with some aspiring swordsmiths in Sweden who I believe would have mentioned it. Not saying you are wrong or anything, just curious.

I like your user name, by the way, being a novice kendoka myself. :smallsmile:

Renegade Paladin
2010-07-27, 07:07 PM
I was aware the quality of Japanese iron was quite good, but the simple fact was that spears (and later guns) were much better than swords for actually killing people on a battlefield.
No it wasn't. Japanese iron sucks. Katanas have to be so painstakingly crafted just to keep them from shattering in the course of normal use. It's an epic feat of crafting just to get a usable sword from the product of the iron deposits found on the Japanese home islands, but that's a product of necessity just to make a passable weapon, not the forging of some sort of super-blade.

Also:
Oy, ya ignorant gitz. I's sick of all dis "puny dakka" wot been goin' on in me WAAAGH right now. Shootaz is more dakka den dat. Gobs more dakka.

If some git don't think I know what I'm talking about, I'll crump 'im good. I got me a Shoota from a Mekboy fer loadz uv teef (an' I mean loadz) and 'ave been blasty wid it for a real long time now. I can even crump a Squiggoth wiv it.

Bad Moon Mekboyz spend minnitz workin' on just one Shoota an dey put up to a million gubbinz on it to produce the finest Shootas known to da orkz.

Shootaz is lots more shooty than 'umie gunz and lots more 'ard, too. Anything a 'umie can shoot, a boy with a Shoota can shoot betta. I's bettin' all my teef that a Shoota could take down a Titan wit' no problem.

Wanna know why dem Beaky Boyz can't evah beat Orks in battle? Dat's right, cuz dey's scared of Shootaz. Even at Armor-geddum, da 'umies shot da boyz wiv Shootas first. Dat's coz Shootaz 'ave loads uv dakka and dey know it.

So wot, you sez? I'll tell you wot, ya stupid git. Shootas is da most dakka dere evah was, an' we need real wunz, not dese puny fings. 'ere'z wot dey need:

More Dakka Iron Gobz More Dakka Dakka Spikez Fixa Grot Red paint Stikkbomb Chucka Shootier Blasta More Dakka Bolt-on Burna Bolt-on Rokkit Launcha Turbo Boosta Big Grabba Bolt-on Big Shoota More Dakka Ammo Squig WAAAGH Beer WAAAAAAGH

Now dat's wot I call a Shoota.

Da short uv it is, Shootaz need more dakka.
:smallbiggrin:

Morph Bark
2010-07-28, 03:37 AM
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Sixgun" bullcrap that's going on in the d20 system right now. Roland St. Jude deserves much better than that. Much, much better than that.

*snip*

tl;dr = Roland St. Judes need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

You know, I swear that while this time I was clicking to view this thread, I was thinking that this thread one day will be necromancied and Roland St. Jude will hop in and be like That's it. I'm sick of all this "thread necromancy" bullcrap that's going on on the Giant in the Playground forums right now...

RE:Insanity
2010-07-28, 04:12 AM
If I recall, there is an african sword, a mongol sword, a turkish sword, and a celtic sword that cut better than katanas, and can be used like broadswords, too. Deadliest warrior is my primary source on that, but I can't remember for the life of me which episodes those are from, or what the swords were called...

Oy, ya ignorant gitz. I's sick of all dis "puny dakka" wot been goin' on in me WAAAGH right now. Shootaz is more dakka den dat. Gobs more dakka.

If some git don't think I know what I'm talking about, I'll crump 'im good. I got me a Shoota from a Mekboy fer loadz uv teef (an' I mean loadz) and 'ave been blasty wid it for a real long time now. I can even crump a Squiggoth wiv it.

Bad Moon Mekboyz spend minnitz workin' on just one Shoota an dey put up to a million gubbinz on it to produce the finest Shootas known to da orkz.

Shootaz is lots more shooty than 'umie gunz and lots more 'ard, too. Anything a 'umie can shoot, a boy with a Shoota can shoot betta. I's bettin' all my teef that a Shoota could take down a Titan wit' no problem.

Wanna know why dem Beaky Boyz can't evah beat Orks in battle? Dat's right, cuz dey's scared of Shootaz. Even at Armor-geddum, da 'umies shot da boyz wiv Shootas first. Dat's coz Shootaz 'ave loads uv dakka and dey know it.

So wot, you sez? I'll tell you wot, ya stupid git. Shootas is da most dakka dere evah was, an' we need real wunz, not dese puny fings. 'ere'z wot dey need:

More Dakka Iron Gobz More Dakka Dakka Spikez Fixa Grot Red paint Stikkbomb Chucka Shootier Blasta More Dakka Bolt-on Burna Bolt-on Rokkit Launcha Turbo Boosta Big Grabba Bolt-on Big Shoota More Dakka Ammo Squig WAAAGH Beer WAAAAAAGH

Now dat's wot I call a Shoota.

Da short uv it is, Shootaz need more dakka.

DEM STRAIGHT, boss! Dem 'umie boyz need ta lern wat's wut an' chek dere numbers 'gain!

Psyx
2010-07-28, 04:21 AM
Not to derail too far anything, but are you sure about viking blacksmiths using similar folding techniques?

Yes. Europe was using the technique hundreds of years before Japan. Except that instead of folding the composite metal, it was twisted. It's called pattern welding, and the 'twist' patterns on the blade are as pretty as anything you see on a Japanese blade.


If I recall, there is an african sword, a mongol sword, a turkish sword, and a celtic sword that cut better than katanas, and can be used like broadswords, too. Deadliest warrior is my primary source on that

Believe nothing you hear on that show. It's contemptuously laughable TV.

The katana is actually a nice cutting blade. The curve matches the way you pull a blade over someone (you don't just slap a bit of cheese with a knife to cut it, you do it by pulling the blade over it), wounding well. They're one of the better cutting swords ever made, but a poor choice against armour. But that's not what they're for.

Bayar
2010-07-28, 04:33 AM
If I recall, there is an african sword, a mongol sword, a turkish sword, and a celtic sword that cut better than katanas, and can be used like broadswords, too. Deadliest warrior is my primary source on that, but I can't remember for the life of me which episodes those are from, or what the swords were called...

Wow. That's like saying that syrup is stickier than peanut butter because Brainiac did an experiment once.

Spiryt
2010-07-28, 04:41 AM
If I recall, there is an african sword, a mongol sword, a turkish sword, and a celtic sword that cut better than katanas, and can be used like broadswords, too. Deadliest warrior is my primary source on that, but I can't remember for the life of me which episodes those are from, or what the swords

That's why I hate such programs....

What's "a" celtic sword? There were shytload of sword 'designs' used by Celtic cultures, leaving aside regional, personal, material difference...

Of course the same goes Mongols and Turks...

I won't even start on what they called "african sword" Africa is freaking huge continent.

But Spike guys call something "Honolulu sword" make some crappy 'replica' that fails at resembling even the stereotype they just made up...

And then people talk about this idiocy. :smallfrown:

RE:Insanity
2010-07-28, 04:44 AM
Primary source. As in I saw it on there, and looked it up in multiple different books (my parents were medieval historians) and sites to confirm them. They weren't as good, but they worked better than katanas.

JaronK
2010-07-28, 04:46 AM
Ugh. I dance with fire swords (machetes, lately). You have NO IDEA how many Katana fanboys I have to deal with. Virtually every time someone has come up to me after a fire sword dance they hit me with something like "I trained with double katanas in Japan" within a minute of starting the conversation. It's horribly annoying.

JaronK

Spiryt
2010-07-28, 04:49 AM
Primary source. As in I saw it on there, and looked it up in multiple different books (my parents were medieval historians) and sites to confirm them. They weren't as good, but they worked better than katanas.

This don't make much sense, and I'm not sure how they were supposed to work 'better' than katanas, as virtually every sword that can be associated as "Celtic" "Turkish" or "Mongol" would have been one handed weapon, so comparing it to katana in terms of 'working' is pretty pointless at best.

Bayar
2010-07-28, 05:01 AM
Primary source. As in I saw it on there, and looked it up in multiple different books (my parents were medieval historians) and sites to confirm them. They weren't as good, but they worked better than katanas.

A P51D Mustang works better than a Spitfire. Swords don't work better than other swords. They might cut better, but they dont "work". Plus, it's better to give specifics: is that turkish sword supposed to be a yatagan or a sabre ? Also, saying they weren't as good but they were better does not make any attempt at sense.

Dr.Epic
2010-07-28, 05:03 AM
You're assuming the average non-masterwork sword is the equivalent to a European blade. Who's to say an average sword in D&D isn't superior to one and thus the adjustment isn't the same.

Mr.Moron
2010-07-28, 05:05 AM
On the upside it'd be worth the feat.

rakkoon
2010-07-28, 05:11 AM
This was new to me and bloody hilarious. I've long given up on trying to compare katanas and the swords of the Templars. Too many people show up in such a discussion with a whole lot more knowledge than me and they keep giving contradictory conclusions.

Psyx
2010-07-28, 05:49 AM
Primary source. As in I saw it on there, and looked it up in multiple different books (my parents were medieval historians) and sites to confirm them. They weren't as good, but they worked better than katanas.


How can they not be as good, but work better? Can you give us the names of the 'better' blades from elsewhere so we have some comparative material?

God, I hate that programme. The cretin claiming a pirate was as professional a warrior as a knight needed stabbing in the face.

RE:Insanity
2010-07-28, 06:53 AM
The cretin claiming a pirate was as professional a warrior as a knight needed stabbing in the face.

Actually, some pirate crews had training regimens, and the knights templar themselves became pirates.
Although I agree, most pirates weren't as trained as knights.

Spiryt
2010-07-28, 07:01 AM
This was new to me and bloody hilarious. I've long given up on trying to compare katanas and the swords of the Templars. Too many people show up in such a discussion with a whole lot more knowledge than me and they keep giving contradictory conclusions.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Templars existed as an order of monk knights from 1119 to 1314, and in this period we may talk about knights using swords on the field of battle called "Templars".

And as medieval swords are relatively well researched, you can find quite a lot of data on the Internet, let alone well written books.

Due to span of time when they existed, Templar knights could have used sword types like Okaeshott Xa, XI, XIa, XII, XIII, XIV... Perhaps some X, XVI, or XV as well.

That's a lot of basic sword types to deal with, and then there are individual swords which can be heavier or lighter, longer or shorter, with different harmonics etc.

Katanas from the same period would be much less diverse, AFAIK, due to japanese culture, as well as whole well known fuss about making even one sword, but still there would be a lot to talk about here, probably.

Thurbane
2010-07-28, 07:32 AM
found this funny thing while looking for something else.

sorry if its old i have no clue lol.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20
I personally had never seen that before. I laughed a lot. Thank you. :smallbiggrin:

Coplantor
2010-07-28, 07:57 AM
no, katanas cut through hard stuff (+5),only swordmasters make them (masterwork) and can slice up to 3 humens in a good strike (decapitating0

Do you have any sources?

Thurbane
2010-07-28, 08:24 AM
Spoiler alert:

Any sword that you can essentially 1-shot a Predator with must be pretty impressive! :smallbiggrin:

Eldan
2010-07-28, 08:26 AM
Or roll good criticals.

Anyway, I'm mostly annoyed by the badly made versions of this trope. Just going over the text and search-replacing the word "katana" with whatever you want to use doesn't make it funny. Or to make it short: cats are not blades.

ericgrau
2010-07-28, 08:36 AM
Do you have any sources?

You'e joking right? He bought one for $20,000, practiced with it for 2 years and used it to cut through steel, duh.

Coplantor
2010-07-28, 08:38 AM
You'e joking right? He bought one for $20,000, practiced with it for 2 years and used it to cut through steel, duh.

You sir, you won an internet :smallbiggrin:

tonberrian
2010-07-28, 09:32 AM
I'm having a hard time seeing this whole "Katanas are superior" angle. After all, katanas can't even cut through stethoscopes (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/11p32). Any sword worth their salt should cut through a stethoscope.

Obviously, yes, katatanas are underpowered, and need to be rethought from the ground up.

Spiryt
2010-07-28, 09:34 AM
I'm having a hard time seeing this whole "Katanas are superior" angle. After all, katanas can't even cut through stethoscopes (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/11p32). Any sword worth their salt should cut through a stethoscope.

That's not katana.

Rather obvious, as I bought my katana for 34195 $ and I've cut 17 stethoscopes with it.

Coplantor
2010-07-28, 09:35 AM
I'm having a hard time seeing this whole "Katanas are superior" angle. After all, katanas can't even cut through stethoscopes (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/11p32). Any sword worth their salt should cut through a stethoscope.

Obviously, yes, katatanas are underpowered, and need to be rethought from the ground up.

Even though I lol'd... that's not a katana

tonberrian
2010-07-28, 09:39 AM
Even though I lol'd... that's not a katana

It's not my fault!*

*It totally is.

Psyx
2010-07-28, 09:41 AM
Actually, some pirate crews had training regimens, and the knights templar themselves became pirates.
Although I agree, most pirates weren't as trained as knights.

I'd really hope that any decent crew actually bothered training. It's hardly starting to train under skilled professionals from pretty much the time you learn to run. And a life of hard-tack and subsistence diet isn't going to help, compared to a nobleman's diet, either.

The show also tends to brush aside considerations of armour and shield on a regular basis, too.

Zovc
2010-07-28, 09:58 AM
Saying every samurai was able to get their hands on a masterwork bastard sword is nuts. A lot of adventurers have to hold out to get such a rare, powerful item!

sonofzeal
2010-07-28, 10:58 AM
How can they not be as good, but work better? Can you give us the names of the 'better' blades from elsewhere so we have some comparative material?
Japanese steel sucks. It's a relatively small island with not a whole lot of good ore deposits, so the steel that the Japanese had to work with was terrible by European standards. They compensated for this with more and more advanced forging techniques that Europeans had little need to investigate in the first place. So the design of the katana is superior, but because it's made from crappy Japanese steel it doesn't actually work that much better in practice. Other swords, then, are not as "good", but might "work better".

Spiryt
2010-07-28, 11:04 AM
Japanese steel sucks. It's a relatively small island with not a whole lot of good ore deposits, so the steel that the Japanese had to work with was terrible by European standards. They compensated for this with more and more advanced forging techniques that Europeans had little need to investigate in the first place. So the design of the katana is superior, but because it's made from crappy Japanese steel it doesn't actually work that much better in practice. Other swords, then, are not as "good", but might "work better".

It's not really "design" that was superior, and Japanese steel wasn't crappy.

Japanese ores and iron was 'crappy' and whole process of folding, differential temper and rest gave steel of often very good capabilities.

It wasn't made from "crappy" steel, and katana made from some other steel wouldn't be really "better". It's what it is.

And in Europe, from Poland to Ireland, there were tonnes of different pattern welding, wootz, and similar techniques, from early iron age up to the XIth century, so "they" indeed investigated those techniques.

Later they were of course being mainly forgotten, as swords made from uniform carbon steel became dominant.

Zen Monkey
2010-07-28, 11:10 AM
Miyamoto Musashi supposedly won many duels against people wielding a katana, while he himself used a wooden sword. Clearly, wooden swords are overpowered.

Then again, I can break a wooden sword with my hands. Clearly, hands are overpowered.

However, in my studies, I sometimes get papercuts on my hands. Clearly, paper is overpowered.

Of course, ink can permanently stain paper. And a katana could do nothing to hurt a pool of ink. Clearly, gamer logic is underpowered.

Coplantor
2010-07-28, 11:16 AM
I dot see it as a failure of gamer logic as much as the result of the way katanas are seen in popular culture. Blame Highlander, The Bodyguard and some animes.

Psyx
2010-07-28, 11:24 AM
Saying every samurai was able to get their hands on a masterwork bastard sword is nuts.

...And yet they did. If your life relies on the tool in your hand; you buy the best tool available. Or just inherit it: A good sword lasts a long while.


Japanese steel sucks. It's a relatively small island with not a whole lot of good ore deposits, so the steel that the Japanese had to work with was terrible by European standards. They compensated for this with more and more advanced forging techniques that Europeans had little need to investigate in the first place. So the design of the katana is superior, but because it's made from crappy Japanese steel it doesn't actually work that much better in practice. Other swords, then, are not as "good", but might "work better".

Not at all. We used those same 'advanced' forging techniques as well for about a thousand years. The resulting steel in the blade is of equivalent quality, East and West.

So Japanese swords were not markedly different in composition than ours.
The design of Japanese blades was good for what they are intended to be used for. They are short, agile blades, with a long grip for plenty of leverage. The curve of the blade is perfectly shaped to maximise damage on a cut, and they can still be used to thrust. They are good cutting swords, and better than many swords that the world has seen. It's just they're not a zillion times better than every other sword, and they're not as good at certain things as Western swords.

Spiryt
2010-07-28, 11:28 AM
I dot see it as a failure of gamer logic as much as the result of the way katanas are seen in popular culture. Blame Highlander, The Bodyguard and some animes.

No, it's failure of gaming "better" "more folded" "sharper" logic indeed.

Zen Monkey's post was pretty brilliant, I liked it. :smallbiggrin:

NEO|Phyte
2010-07-28, 11:32 AM
Miyamoto Musashi supposedly won many duels against people wielding a katana, while he himself used a wooden sword. Clearly, wooden swords are overpowered.

Nononono.

Wooden swords are BOKKEN.

Dogmantra
2010-07-28, 11:34 AM
Nononono.

Wooden swords are BOKKEN.

You, sir, are my idol.

Coplantor
2010-07-28, 11:36 AM
No, it's failure of gaming "better" "more folded" "sharper" logic indeed.

Zen Monkey's post was pretty brilliant, I liked it. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, I'm not saying I didnt like the post, it was awesome =P, so was NEO|Phyte's

Dralnu
2010-07-28, 11:40 AM
Wasn't there an episode in World's Deadliest Warrior where a katana was cutting through rows of pigs and stuff? Seemed pretty decent.

Of course, they were comparing it to a Spartan sword, not exactly from the same time period.

Draz74
2010-07-28, 11:44 AM
Miyamoto Musashi supposedly won many duels against people wielding a katana, while he himself used a wooden sword. Clearly, wooden swords are overpowered.

Then again, I can break a wooden sword with my hands. Clearly, hands are overpowered.

However, in my studies, I sometimes get papercuts on my hands. Clearly, paper is overpowered.

Of course, ink can permanently stain paper. And a katana could do nothing to hurt a pool of ink. Clearly, gamer logic is underpowered.

This post is awesome via subtle analogy with Japanese folklore ...

Specifically, the old story where the sun is blocked by a cloud (clouds are overpowered!), which is destroyed by a wind (wind is overpowered!), which is blocked by the land's tallest wall (walls are overpowered!), which has mouseholes chewed in its base (mice are overpowered!). And the mouse who's at the end of this chain gets the girl when he "proves" that he's the most powerful entity in all of Japan.

Psyx
2010-07-28, 11:45 AM
You, sir, are my idol.

I think he's a Waster, myself...




Of course, they were comparing it to a Spartan sword, not exactly from the same time period.

And a Spartan sword is far better at it's job than a Japanese blade would be... Horses for courses.

And of course: You're just as dead when stabbed clean through as you are when you're cut through...

Knaight
2010-07-28, 11:48 AM
Deadliest Warrior is a pretty terrible show, but as for cutting through carcasses, that isn't actually all that difficult. Pretty much any slashing sword, axe, polearm, whatever shouldn't have a huge issue, though a katana would be particularly good (unless they armored the carcasses). Still, that show shouldn't be trusted, they have a history of sloppiness anyone who actually knows the material well will catch. Particularly in regards to slings, and the horrible, horrible slingers they keep bringing on in the show, usually on the wrong slide (apache vs. gladiator being the most egregious example. The gladiator got the sling). Armor and shields being completely ignored is another example.

AtopTheMountain
2010-07-28, 12:05 PM
That's why I hate such programs....

What's "a" celtic sword? There were shytload of sword 'designs' used by Celtic cultures, leaving aside regional, personal, material difference...

Of course the same goes Mongols and Turks...

I won't even start on what they called "african sword" Africa is freaking huge continent.

But Spike guys call something "Honolulu sword" make some crappy 'replica' that fails at resembling even the stereotype they just made up...

And then people talk about this idiocy. :smallfrown:

The Celtic sword was just labeled as a "longsword". It actually didn't cut better than a katana, needing two strikes to decapitate.

The Mongol sword was an Ild. It also didn't cut as well as the katana, needing several strikes to get through a pig.

The Turkish sword was a Kilij, being tested by Vlad the Impaler. It cut all the way through a pig carcass in one one-handed strike, and is probably the closest to the katana in terms of cutting power, but they were not specifically compared.

The "african sword" was a makraka, similar to a sickle, and it was used by the Zande/Azande in the southern Sudan. It cleanly decapitated a gel torso in one strike.

Bayar
2010-07-28, 12:12 PM
The Turkish sword was a Kilij, being tested by Vlad the Impaler. It cut all the way through a pig carcass in one one-handed strike, and is probably the closest to the katana in terms of cutting power, but they were not specifically compared.

Wait wait wait.Why did Vlad the Impaler wielded a turkish sword when he was a romanian and a sworn enemy of the turks ?

And how the **** did Vlad managed to test the sword in a modern day "documentary" when he is dead for centuries ?

AtopTheMountain
2010-07-28, 12:25 PM
He was trained by the Turks while he was under their rule.
EDIT: At least according to Deadliest Warrior history.

And he wasn't actually testing it himself, obviously. They have "Vlad the Impaler experts" test it.

super dark33
2010-07-28, 01:46 PM
in feudal japen,they tested katanas by 'how much humens can it cut in one strike'

Coplantor
2010-07-28, 01:50 PM
And in soviet russia they tested humans by how many katanas they could cut. :smalltongue:

Now, seriously, where did you got that piece of information?

Spiryt
2010-07-28, 01:51 PM
in feudal japen,they tested katanas by 'how much humens can it cut in one strike'

In Soviet Russia, they tested humens, by how much katanas they can cut in one strike.

EDIT: DAAAMNN!

And :


Now, seriously, where did you got that piece of information?

It's pretty popular tale, arguably true, that many sword of more rich customers were tested against tied criminals for example.

Bayar
2010-07-28, 01:51 PM
He was trained by the Turks while he was under their rule.

Well there's something my teachers never mentioned during history classes.


And in soviet russia they tested humans by how many katanas they could cut. :smalltongue:

Now, seriously, where did you got that piece of information?

Well, they did. On prisoners of war and other people that were going to be killed anyway.

AtopTheMountain
2010-07-28, 02:47 PM
Well there's something my teachers never mentioned during history classes.


I'm really just relaying what the show claimed.

JaronK
2010-07-28, 04:01 PM
The Turkish sword was a Kilij, being tested by Vlad the Impaler. It cut all the way through a pig carcass in one one-handed strike, and is probably the closest to the katana in terms of cutting power, but they were not specifically compared.

It's nothing like a Katana. The Kilij has a dramatic curve (better for slicing like that) and is weighted on the end to increase cutting power. It's designed specifically to cut right through unarmored opponents. The Katana has a much less curved blade and nothing like that weighting, since it's designed to be easier to handle and to be used in rapid cut and pull back strikes. You never try to slice straight through a target like that with a Katana if you know what you're doing... the thinner blade can easily get stuck in bone and sinew.

The Longsword is much closer to a Katana than the Kilij is.

JaronK

AtopTheMountain
2010-07-28, 04:04 PM
It's nothing like a Katana. The Kilij has a dramatic curve (better for slicing like that) and is weighted on the end to increase cutting power. It's designed specifically to cut right through unarmored opponents. The Katana has a much less curved blade and nothing like that weighting, since it's designed to be easier to handle and to be used in rapid cut and pull back strikes. You never try to slice straight through a target like that with a Katana if you know what you're doing... the thinner blade can easily get stuck in bone and sinew.

The Longsword is much closer to a Katana than the Kilij is.

JaronK

I said in terms of cutting power. It went through that pig like butter, much better than the longswords they've tested. I understand that the design and use is very different.

PersonMan
2010-07-28, 04:07 PM
in feudal japen,they tested katanas by 'how much humens can it cut in one strike'

Well, they had to. Japan was under constant threat by the humen hordes. They only survived because of the samurai and their katanas, which proved to be the weakness of the humens. In fact, without the katanas, the humens would probably be invading the world from their long-conquered Asian bases...

Gametime
2010-07-28, 04:10 PM
Nononono.

Wooden swords are BOKKEN.

This made me laugh harder than it really should. Here you go (instantrimshot.com). :smallbiggrin:

Asheram
2010-07-28, 04:15 PM
And in soviet russia they tested humans by how many katanas they could cut. :smalltongue:

Now, seriously, where did you got that piece of information?

Ia Spetsnaz!

((Just to honour those creepy ******* russians that visited Deadliest Warrior. No disrespect to any russians, I loved those guys.))

Deth Muncher
2010-07-28, 04:22 PM
Y'know, I seem to recall Roland not liking Copypasta...

Mushroom Ninja
2010-07-28, 04:25 PM
I love how the thread about the katana threads has, to some extent, devolved into a katana thread itself. :smallbiggrin:

JaronK
2010-07-28, 04:28 PM
I said in terms of cutting power. It went through that pig like butter, much better than the longswords they've tested. I understand that the design and use is very different.

I know. And my point is that the Kilij is designed for that sort of cutting power... but Katanas aren't.

Remember also that the hanging pig scenario is biased in favor of thin, sharp swords, because gravity pulls the wound apart. Against a standing opponent, gravity pulls the body down upon the sword, jamming it up. A katana against a human cannot just cut them in half... it jams up.

Either way, the Katana is NOTHING like a Kilij for cutting power. The Kilij is a dramatically curved blade with a heavy tip, ideal for hacking through an opponent. The Katana is a lightly curved blade with a much lower balance point, designed for sharp, quick cuts.

JaronK

RE:Insanity
2010-07-28, 10:01 PM
Of course, if you really wanted to kill someone, you could always, I dunno, shoot them.
Speaking of, I wonder how long it will take now for someone to bring up the guns are underpowered debate.

Kris Strife
2010-07-28, 10:05 PM
Of course, if you really wanted to kill someone, you could always, I dunno, shoot them.
Speaking of, I wonder how long it will take now for someone to bring up the guns are underpowered debate.

That's in another thread. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162106

Keld Denar
2010-07-28, 10:09 PM
What if you shot them with a gun that fired tiny spinning katanas? It would cut through like, 5 people before it stopped traveling...

balistafreak
2010-07-28, 10:10 PM
Forget "tiny spinning katanas", how about a gun that just shoots katanas?

A la blunderbuss/field piece/mortar.

Katana-kannon. Say it, it's addictive. :smallamused:

The Glyphstone
2010-07-28, 10:14 PM
What if you shot them with a gun that fired tiny spinning katanas? It would cut through like, 5 people before it stopped traveling...

Pfft. At the end of that road lies laser swords. with guns on them. That shoot more swords. (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/mockingbird)

tonberrian
2010-07-28, 10:32 PM
The problem with katana-cannons is that we already have something superior - guns that shoot chainsaws. I mean, really, to beat that, you need a gun that shoots miniature fighter jets equipped with rockets that explode with shrapnel in the form of katanas that light themselves on fire.

...

Some stat that up? Pretty please?

Mushroom Ninja
2010-07-28, 10:39 PM
The problem with katana-cannons is that we already have something superior - guns that shoot chainsaws. I mean, really, to beat that, you need a gun that shoots miniature fighter jets equipped with rockets that explode with shrapnel in the form of katanas that light themselves on fire.



Needs more dinosaurs.

Bongos
2010-07-28, 10:44 PM
In my trips to Japan I have seen several diagrams of stacked bodies tied to stakes in the ground to be used for katana cutting tests on several occasions. There were different names for the different configurations and number of bodies. Finally each type cut also had a name. So katanas were frequently tested for cutting on human bodies.

The great beauty of the katana's design is the pre-stressed curve of the blade and the durability of the steel. This allows the sword to be extremely fast and maneuverable, while retaining an incredible degree of durability.

As for the katana being better or worse than other swords of the world, that is an extremely difficult comparison to make.

tonberrian
2010-07-28, 10:44 PM
Needs more dinosaurs.

Those fighter jets? They're F-14's. And you know who pilots F-14's? Tyrannosaurs.

JaronK
2010-07-28, 11:37 PM
The great beauty of the katana's design is the pre-stressed curve of the blade and the durability of the steel. This allows the sword to be extremely fast and maneuverable, while retaining an incredible degree of durability.

From what I've seen, Katanas are in fact not a very durable sword at all, certainly not compared to the European Longsword. There's a reason Kendo teaches quick, light cuts where you pull back after the hit. You could easily get your sword warped and damaged when it gets stuck in your opponent.

They're fast and maneuverable to be sure, but durability is not a trait I'd ascribe to them.

JaronK

PersonMan
2010-07-28, 11:41 PM
The problem with katana-cannons is that we already have something superior - guns that shoot chainsaws. I mean, really, to beat that, you need a gun that shoots miniature fighter jets equipped with rockets that explode with shrapnel in the form of katanas that light themselves on fire.

...

Some stat that up? Pretty please?


You know the tiny blades on a chainsaw? Zoom in. Yes, those are Micro-Katanas as the chainsaw blades.

Zovc
2010-07-28, 11:47 PM
Specifically, the old story where the sun is blocked by a cloud (clouds are overpowered!), which is destroyed by a wind (wind is overpowered!), which is blocked by the land's tallest wall (walls are overpowered!), which has mouseholes chewed in its base (mice are overpowered!). And the mouse who's at the end of this chain gets the girl when he "proves" that he's the most powerful entity in all of Japan.

"The mouse" "gets the girl"

*squints*

...Do I want to know?

Keld Denar
2010-07-29, 12:41 AM
The great beauty of the katana's design is the pre-stressed curve of the blade and the durability of the steel. This allows the sword to be extremely fast and maneuverable, while retaining an incredible degree of durability.


What is this "pre-stress" concept of which you speak? I'm an engineer, and a steel guy. The idea of pre-stressing an object generally involve composite materials, in which one material applies a tensile or compressive load on the other. This load creates a force, which results in a stress. A katana is forged from a single piece of steel, folded and whatnot. What part of the katana is putting stress on other parts?

The only stress I can think of is the slight amount of stress on the grain boundaries when you quench steel, primarily due to the penetration of carbon into the iron's crystaline latice. This stress is inherant in all forged metals, from horse shoes to cooking pots to door knobs to swords.

So....yea, what are you talking about?

Kris Strife
2010-07-29, 01:29 AM
"The mouse" "gets the girl"

*squints*

...Do I want to know?

This is Japan. They also have a story where a dog marries a princess. It goes downhill from there.

Psyx
2010-07-29, 03:47 AM
"There's a reason Kendo teaches quick, light cuts where you pull back after the hit."

Plus... it's a sport, not a fighting art.

And...err...actually; you push *through* and past after a hit. Dancing back after a hit is a good way for it not to be counted.

Bayar
2010-07-29, 03:51 AM
What is this "pre-stress" concept of which you speak? I'm an engineer, and a steel guy. The idea of pre-stressing an object generally involve composite materials, in which one material applies a tensile or compressive load on the other. This load creates a force, which results in a stress. A katana is forged from a single piece of steel, folded and whatnot. What part of the katana is putting stress on other parts?

The only stress I can think of is the slight amount of stress on the grain boundaries when you quench steel, primarily due to the penetration of carbon into the iron's crystaline latice. This stress is inherant in all forged metals, from horse shoes to cooking pots to door knobs to swords.

So....yea, what are you talking about?

Actually, a katana is made out of 2 pieces of steel, one that is flexible designed to become the sharp part of the blade, the other much more durable on the other side of the blade, giving it resistance to breaking easily.

Prime32
2010-07-29, 04:10 AM
Actually, a katana is made out of 2 pieces of steel, one that is flexible designed to become the sharp part of the blade, the other much more durable on the other side of the blade, giving it resistance to breaking easily.I thought it was the other way around. Why would you cut with the soft part?

Spiryt
2010-07-29, 04:12 AM
Actually, a katana is made out of 2 pieces of steel, one that is flexible designed to become the sharp part of the blade, the other much more durable on the other side of the blade, giving it resistance to breaking easily.

Uh...

As far as I know, it would be directly otherwise, flexible and softer, more plastic part would become back and core, while hard part would become the edge.

Although there were different methods of construction depending on smith, period and all, some were completely uniform pieces, while others were complicated.

Thurbane
2010-07-29, 07:37 AM
I thought the best Katanas were composed of millions of micro Chuck Norrises?

Mongoose87
2010-07-29, 08:28 AM
I thought they were made of the Mithral bones of a dwarf-demon.

Eldan
2010-07-29, 08:37 AM
Not from Elven Witches?

Ormagoden
2010-07-29, 08:39 AM
::Head + Keyboard:: ::Forever::

John Campbell
2010-07-29, 12:36 PM
Actually, a katana is made out of 2 pieces of steel, one that is flexible designed to become the sharp part of the blade, the other much more durable on the other side of the blade, giving it resistance to breaking easily.

Okay, it's like this. The durability of steel tends to be a trade-off between hard-but-brittle and soft-but-resilient. You can fiddle with the balance of that trade-off some, depending on the exact contents of the alloy and how it's tempered, but you're not going to get both hard and resilient. But for a sword, you want hard steel (which is brittle) so it'll hold a good cutting edge, and you want resilient steel (which is soft) so it won't break under the stress of combat. Obvious solution to this dilemma: Use two different types of steel... hard steel for the edge and resilient steel for the core.

If you're actually using two pieces of steel - just taking some billets of a soft steel alloy, twisting and folding them together, then hammer-welding some harder steel alloy around the outside for the edges - this is called "pattern-welding", and it was being done in Europe in the Dark Ages.

Katanas, at least in the most familiar form, didn't do this. They used a single billet of steel (folded many times to work carbon into the crap, I mean iron, so that it would be steel), and achieved the different properties by tempering the parts of the blade differently. The spine of the sword was encased in clay for the final quenching, while the edge was left uncovered, so when it was quenched - plunged into water - the exposed edge cooled rapidly, while the spine, insulated by the clay, cooled more slowly. This leaves the edge with a hard-but-brittle temper and the spine with a resilient-but-soft temper, despite it all being the same alloy. And that's what makes that little wavy line parallel to the edge on real katanas - that's the boundary where the clay covered it, where the different tempers meet.

This process is also what gives the katana its distinctive curve... they're forged straight, but the rapid quenching of the steel along the edge basically freezes it in place, while the slow cooling of the spine gives the metal time to contract as it cools. Because the two parts are integrally attached to each other, the blade curves backwards as the spine contracts.

The katana is a narrowly specialized weapon... it's minmaxed for fast, agile, slashing drawcuts, which do horrific things to un- or soft-armored targets. For that role, you'd be hard-pressed to find a weapon that does it better. However, in order to achieve that optimization, the katana dumped the weight necessary for percussive, hacking cuts, and the narrow, in-line point necessary for good stabbing, and length (reach!) and the ability to use a shield in the off hand and so on. And that razor edge and those long, slashing drawcuts, which will brutally dismember an unarmored man, just skate right off even mail, and a man armored cap-a-pie in steel plate just laughs at them.

Which brings us back to the ore situation... Japan just didn't have armor like that. They couldn't afford to commit that much steel to it. So they wore mostly soft armor, if they wore any at all, augmented with limited amounts of metal, and their weapons were optimized for defeating the armor, or lack thereof, that they faced. You see similar weapons in other environments where heavy armor is uncommon for whatever reason, from the Moorish scimitar to the modern-era cavalry saber. In Western Europe, we did have steel armor, though, so swords evolved to defeat that - long, heavy, two-handed blades for percussive hacking strikes that could crush or even cut through plate, or narrow, heavy-spined stabbing weapons for going through plate like a metal punch, and of course the maces and warhammers and axes and picks and estocs and halberds and bec-de-corbins and so on that are the logical conclusion or combination of those ideas - rather than optimizing for killing unarmored people (which is really a whole lot easier... any weapon that can kill someone through armor will do just fine for an unarmored guy, if maybe not as efficiently as one optimized for the job).

There are also a lot of things that you can do with a double-edged two-handed sword with long quillions and a grippable ricasso with a secondary guard and a good, heavy knob on the pommel that you simply cannot do with a katana. They're mostly ugly, brutal, and very effective things.

If I really want to efficiently dismember a lot of unarmored people - like, say, I find myself in the middle of the inevitable zombie apocalypse - I'll take a katana (or, by preference, a glaive... they can't bite me if I'm taking their heads off ten feet out). But for a medieval-Europeoid setting, where metal armor is common, like most D&D campaigns, give me a greatsword. (Or, again, a polearm. Poles just win all 'round. Though if I'm going up against armor rather than the rotting flesh of the undead, I probably want something more like a halberd.)

In D&D terms, I'd stat katanas not as a bastard sword, but to the bastard sword what the scimitar is to the "longsword" or the "falchion" is to the greatsword. Two-handed, 1d8 slashing, 18-20/x2, EWP to use one-handed (which is a terrible mechanic, but that's how hand-and-a-half weapons work in D&D. The AD&D mechanic, where bastard swords required no special proficiency and were just slower longswords when used one-handed and slightly better damage-wise (2d4... greatswords were 1d10) when used two-handed, was better). And no, not automatically masterwork, though, like any other sword, they could be made masterwork.

JaronK
2010-07-29, 12:52 PM
Ah, now what John is saying matches my experience as well. The Katana wasn't a particularly durable sword, it was just a fast one that was designed for fighting lightly armored enemies with quick, agile cuts. You don't just hack with a Katana as you might with a Kilij or Greatsword... you have to be precise or you'll damage the thing.


If I really want to efficiently dismember a lot of unarmored people - like, say, I find myself in the middle of the inevitable zombie apocalypse - I'll take a katana (or, by preference, a glaive... they can't bite me if I'm taking their heads off ten feet out). But for a medieval-Europeoid setting, where metal armor is common, like most D&D campaigns, give me a greatsword. (Or, again, a polearm. Poles just win all 'round. Though if I'm going up against armor rather than the rotting flesh of the undead, I probably want something more like a halberd.)

Heh, I'd go for a Kilij actually if you wanted me to dismember many zombie opponents. You don't need to worry about technique nearly as much. But I have to agree with the polearms idea as the best solution. The evolution of melee combat has always moved towards variants of the sharp pointy stick. Eventually the king of melee weapons was pretty much the pike... the really long sharp pointy stick. Those things just get the job done (and they're cheap to make!).

JaronK

Keld Denar
2010-07-29, 01:01 PM
Those things just get the job done (and they're cheap to make!).

Don't forget ease of use! It can take months to learn to swing a sword effectively in pitch combat. It takes about 3 minutes to show a bunch of uneducated peasants how to stand in a line, brace the pike against your foot and the ground, and wait till something exciting happens. It usually amounts to something along the lines of "this end out".

And yes, if what you are saying is true, that forging method would indeed cause the part encased in clay to apply a stress to the blade (hence the curve). It wasn't something I really considered given that in modern times for construction purposes, a single piece of steel is cooled uniformly to give it uniform properties. If you need a given material with two different properties, its often cheaper and more effective to just fasten two bodies together, such as with welds, press-fits, or mechanical fasteners like rivets or bolts.

Bongos
2010-07-29, 01:30 PM
From what I've seen, Katanas are in fact not a very durable sword at all, certainly not compared to the European Longsword. There's a reason Kendo teaches quick, light cuts where you pull back after the hit. You could easily get your sword warped and damaged when it gets stuck in your opponent.

They're fast and maneuverable to be sure, but durability is not a trait I'd ascribe to them.

JaronK

I would be interested to know what you have seen. The reason the pull back is taught is to create a greater wound and also uses the cutting power of the sword to free the sword from the target more quickly for further attacks, not because of any inherent fragility in the sword.


What is this "pre-stress" concept of which you speak? I'm an engineer, and a steel guy. The idea of pre-stressing an object generally involve composite materials, in which one material applies a tensile or compressive load on the other. This load creates a force, which results in a stress. A katana is forged from a single piece of steel, folded and whatnot. What part of the katana is putting stress on other parts?

The only stress I can think of is the slight amount of stress on the grain boundaries when you quench steel, primarily due to the penetration of carbon into the iron's crystaline latice. This stress is inherant in all forged metals, from horse shoes to cooking pots to door knobs to swords.

So....yea, what are you talking about?
You are incorrect in your assumption. A katana is forged from more than one piece of steel. Frequently several pieces of steel are used. Typically high carbon steel is used for the edge for the sharpness and low carbon is used for the back for strength. During the cooling process the low carbon steel compresses more than the high carbon steel. This causes the distinctive curve of the sword and the pre-stressed forces that I refer to.

But alas, I seem to have been ninja'd.

JaronK
2010-07-29, 01:33 PM
Have you seen a katana break?

Well, warp to the point of unusability, yes. When hit against a longsword, in fact. Admittedly, the striker was quite strong, but the Katana was rendered useless from the hit.

JaronK

Spiryt
2010-07-29, 01:34 PM
You are incorrect in your assumption. A katana is forged from more than one piece of steel. Frequently several pieces of steel are used. Typically high carbon steel is used for the edge for the sharpness and low carbon is used for the back for strength. During the cooling process the low carbon steel compresses more than the high carbon steel. This causes the distinctive curve of the sword and the pre-stressed forces that I refer to.

Nope, like already mentioned, katana was usually forged from one piece of uniform, folded steel. Even if more than one billet of steel were somehow welded together, it was the same steel.

Different qualities or different parts were achieved in the process of quenching and tempering.

Dairun Cates
2010-07-29, 02:26 PM
I thought it was supposed to be quite poor, Japan being the mineral-poor dirtball that it is.

If anything, the "folding a thousand times" thing was a necessary measure to offset the low quality of the iron ore.

BINGO! Japanese steel is actually mediocre quality at best (and downright horrible at its worst). Japan is mostly rocky mountainous area with poor mineral qualities. The folding process is a method attempting to remove gross impurities from the steel to strengthen it. Done to already good quality steel, folding does little more than actually just make the blade thinner (and in MOST cases, weaker). The 1,000 folds was a necessity for protection in order to make sword good enough to actually take things down.

Now, Katanas do have SOME mechanical advantages to how they work for certain fight (blade curvature, length, and weight plays a huge role in how you wield it), but the steel quality is not one of them.

Prime32
2010-07-29, 02:27 PM
If you want to differentiate weapons a bit more you could give weapons specialised in slicing a damage bonus, in exchange for an attack penalty against opponents with armour or natural armour.

Keld Denar
2010-07-29, 02:31 PM
Adding that much complication to D&D is where the simulationist in me tells the realist to sit down, shut up, and just enjoy the ride... Its all ready complicated enough!

Timeras
2010-07-29, 03:06 PM
Don't forget ease of use! It can take months to learn to swing a sword effectively in pitch combat. It takes about 3 minutes to show a bunch of uneducated peasants how to stand in a line, brace the pike against your foot and the ground, and wait till something exciting happens. It usually amounts to something along the lines of "this end out".


It's not that simple. They were in a formation of several thousand soldiers and had move with that. And a bunch of uneducated peasants would probably panick when charged by knights on horseback.
Of course it took less training than a sword but there was still training required.
In the 16th century Landsknechte were well-trained and highly paid mercenaries.

Mongoose87
2010-07-29, 04:09 PM
It's not that simple. They were in a formation of several thousand soldiers and had move with that. And a bunch of uneducated peasants would probably panick when charged by knights on horseback.
Of course it took less training than a sword but there was still training required.
In the 16th century Landsknechte were well-trained and highly paid mercenaries.

Not to mention the Pike was used completely differently from the sword, and somewhere in the neighborhood of two people were ever killed by a pike.

Spiryt
2010-07-29, 04:15 PM
Not to mention the Pike was used completely differently from the sword, and somewhere in the neighborhood of two people were ever killed by a pike.

Not really, my uncle was slain by a pike.

It was a tragic story.

:smallfrown:

http://th255.photobucket.com/albums/hh152/DarkDragonDave/th_FishSlap.gif

Keld Denar
2010-07-29, 04:32 PM
My father was bit by a møøsepike once. MøøsePike bites are very nasty.

Draz74
2010-07-29, 08:43 PM
"The mouse" "gets the girl"

*squints*

...Do I want to know?

Well, the version I was thinking of, "the girl" was a mouse too. :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr
2010-07-29, 09:07 PM
What is this "pre-stress" concept of which you speak? I'm an engineer, and a steel guy. The idea of pre-stressing an object generally involve composite materials...

So....yea, what are you talking about?

He's talking about Katanas. Which, in case you didn't know, are freaking awesome. They can cut through absolutely anything on earth, except for (sometimes) other katanas.

And japanese armor, obviously, because it is also made of katanas.

Worira
2010-07-29, 09:11 PM
Sometimes, samurai would slaughter armies by curling up into little ball like armadillos and rolling around in their katana-armour.

JaronK
2010-07-29, 09:37 PM
Not to mention the Pike was used completely differently from the sword, and somewhere in the neighborhood of two people were ever killed by a pike.

I'm pretty sure it's a LOT more than that. It was the dominant weapon of the day, and there was at least one battle where the Scotts destroyed an enemy army pretty much only using pikes (hence a certain slang term for them, but that was the battle that proved you could win a battle without cavalry).

Sure, it was usually used in tandem with ranged weapons and shorter pole arms, mostly in a protective role... but en masse, those things were nasty.

JaronK

Tyndmyr
2010-07-29, 10:26 PM
Sometimes, samurai would slaughter armies by curling up into little ball like armadillos and rolling around in their katana-armour.

The slightest poke frrom such a warrior meant instant death. By explosion. This clan later was known as the pokey-man, and were highly regarded by warlords as battle monsters.

balistafreak
2010-07-29, 10:29 PM
The slightest poke frrom such a warrior meant instant death. By explosion. This clan later was known as the pokey-man, and were highly regarded by warlords as battle monsters.

...
...
...

The genius is so astounding, I... don't know what to say.

I think I'll become a pilgrim now...

lightningcat
2010-07-29, 11:00 PM
I recall there being a article in Dragon Magazine "Knight vs. Samurai", I don't recall the issue. They actually covered the debate in a interesting way that completely avoided the "Katanas are underpowered!" comments. I case you are curious, the answer of who would win was
depends on many factors.

Roderick_BR
2010-07-30, 02:31 AM
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine Origomar in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with him for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my Origomar.
What.

just kidding, folks :smalltongue:

hamishspence
2010-07-30, 03:42 AM
I recall there being a article in Dragon Magazine "Knight vs. Samurai", I don't recall the issue.

Issue 323. It was the first of the "new-style" issues in 3.5- previous 3.5 issues were laid out rather differently.

Aroka
2010-07-30, 05:04 AM
I recall there being a article in Dragon Magazine "Knight vs. Samurai", I don't recall the issue. They actually covered the debate in a interesting way that completely avoided the "Katanas are underpowered!" comments. I case you are curious, the answer of who would win was
depends on many factors.

Sounds like they cribbed the answer from ARMA (http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm).

hamishspence
2010-07-30, 05:08 AM
The essay is very, very similar- it's possible that Paizo got that guy to write the essay for Dragon.

Alternatively, it could have been copied.

Eldan
2010-07-30, 05:29 AM
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine welding torch in the local hardware store for 300 CHF (that's about $300) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my welding torch.

Aroka
2010-07-30, 05:47 AM
The essay is very, very similar- it's possible that Paizo got that guy to write the essay for Dragon.

Alternatively, it could have been copied.

Well, I was being a bit facetious, while suggesting that it is perhaps not a wildly unusual conclusion that it is impossible to predetermine the winner in any match between untested (and, in fact, undetermined) combatants.


"There's a reason Kendo teaches quick, light cuts where you pull back after the hit."

Plus... it's a sport, not a fighting art.

And...err...actually; you push *through* and past after a hit. Dancing back after a hit is a good way for it not to be counted.

Yeah, they're really not very light. The three basic strikes are kote, cutting the hands off at the wrist/forearm (very basic in longsword, too), men, cleaving into the skull from above (again, typical for longsword), and do, a draw-cut where you specifically lunge past/through your opponent, drawing the sword forward through/over their belly. Kendo is all about the forward momentum - indeed, most "combat ki" mumbo-jumbo is about "projecting forward", which is sort of based on sound physical principles of messing up your opponent by following through on your strikes. Follow-through on most blows is, obviously, limited even with protective gear on, because it is a sport, not a killing art, and you're just practicing.

I can't really think of any "pulling back" in kendo I've seen; you displace your opponent's sword and strike. If you land a men, kote, or tsuki, you've "killed" or "disabled" your opponent and don't need to pull back. If you land a do, you've gone past/through your opponent.

The fourth strike (I never practiced long enough to be allowed to practice it), tsuki, is a thrust to the throat. One of the teachers actually made interesting use of it in a spar with a student who kept raising his chin - every time he did so, the teacher would very gently place the tip of his shinai in the gap the student was creating under his throat-guard (a flap on the mask/helm). After he repeated this literally five or six times, the student finally started keeping his chin down. Tsuki is awesome partly because it is so swift to make - you just move forward in the basic guard. No strike that involves actually lifting your sword is going to be as fast.


None of this makes the katana a super-sword, though; it's still a specialized draw-cutter. From a historical/social perspective, I find it almost analoguous to a rapier - it was the artful weapon of the Edo period, when the samurai's role as an armored cavalryman was no longer prominent, and you wouldn't expect to fight someone in armor. The katana became less a military weapon and more a swordmaster's, duelist's, or gentleman's weapon.

But even against an unarmored opponent, I think I'd prefer the longsword's power to hack and thrust, and its versatility (as, for instance, a lever to disarm or throw your opponent with; good luck grasping your katana blade with one hand).

Tyndmyr
2010-07-30, 06:30 AM
The longsword was really the M-16 of the time. Not the best at any one thing, but pretty decent all round, and really can be used for anything, if you have to.

endoperez
2010-07-30, 06:37 AM
In Western Europe, we did have steel armor, though, so swords evolved to defeat that - long, heavy, two-handed blades for percussive hacking strikes that could crush or even cut through plate,

While I liked the rest of the post and it matches what I've learned from other sources, I don't think that's historical. I don't think a sword can cut through plate, and I don't think a blade would be optimal for crushing armor. If the swords were used like you say, wouldn't they have been made as two-handed maces shaped like swords? The Chinese made sword-shaped maces a bit like that.
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=2004

Striking with the pommel and handguards and so did happen, but I thought it happened precisely because putting the sword's edge against enemy armor didn't work.

Spiryt
2010-07-30, 06:38 AM
The longsword was really the M-16 of the time. Not the best at any one thing, but pretty decent all round, and really can be used for anything, if you have to.

Of what time?

And what longsword? XIIIa or XVa to use Oakeshott?

That won't be really the same at all or even similar thing in fact. Some of the XXa or XVa swords couldn't be really used to slice or possibly even cut anything for a life.

Some other even with typologically similar blade were cleavers.

That's bad generalization and won't really serve anyone well.


While I liked the rest of the post and it matches what I've learned from other sources, I don't think that's historical. I don't think a sword can cut through plate, and I don't think a blade would be optimal for crushing armor. If the swords were used like you say, wouldn't they have been made as two-handed maces shaped like swords? The Chinese made sword-shaped maces a bit like that.
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=2004

Striking with the pommel and handguards and so did happen, but I thought it happened precisely because putting the sword's edge against enemy armor didn't work.

Not to mention that in Japan they had armor resembling plate in use long before we had in Europe in fact.... Although those were mostly lammellar or similar stuff.

The Rose Dragon
2010-07-30, 06:46 AM
Heh, I'd go for a Kilij actually if you wanted me to dismember many zombie opponents.

Kilij (actually spelled kılıç, but I'll admit that not everyone has those characters on their keyboards) means "sword". Not a specific kind of sword, it is literally Turkish for sword. There are other words for specific kinds of swords in Turkish, but kilij is not one of them.

Eldan
2010-07-30, 06:48 AM
Well, yeah. But then, Katana also just means "sword":



katana (hiragana かたな)

1. 刀: any sword; a blade; a knife


Usually, referring to the sword most often used by one culture, you use just their word for "sword". (And lets not even get into the weird uses of german names for weapons in english).

Prime32
2010-07-30, 06:51 AM
Kilij (actually spelled kılıç, but I'll admit that not everyone has those characters on their keyboards) means "sword". Not a specific kind of sword, it is literally Turkish for sword. There are other words for specific kinds of swords in Turkish, but kilij is not one of them.Well, a German person would call any two-handed sword a zweihander...

Even though it is a specific type of sword, there's a tendency in Japan nowadays to use katana as a general word for sword.

Spiryt
2010-07-30, 06:51 AM
Kilij (actually spelled kılıç, but I'll admit that not everyone has those characters on their keyboards) means "sword". Not a specific kind of sword, it is literally Turkish for sword. There are other words for specific kinds of swords in Turkish, but kilij is not one of them.


As offtopic, is " ç " pronounced like, or similary polish ć (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGLksjXlJw) ?

I could actually say it then. :smallbiggrin:

Psyx
2010-07-30, 07:44 AM
Well, yeah. But then, Katana also just means "sword":



Really? I was under the impression that a To is a sword. Katana are very specific in definition. The only difference between a Katana blade and a Taichi is which way up the smith's mark is struck, but it's enough to differentiate the two types.

Eldan
2010-07-30, 07:45 AM
I must admit that I don't actually speak any japanese, but at least a friend told me and dictionaries seem to support it.

Spiryt
2010-07-30, 07:51 AM
Really? I was under the impression that a To is a sword. Katana are very specific in definition. The only difference between a Katana blade and a Taichi is which way up the smith's mark is struck, but it's enough to differentiate the two types.

I've heard from the actual katanas fanatic (the guy who actually knows a lot about them, not spews some stuff about 43985032 foldings) that difference is in mounting of the blade, look of the handle and way of bearing it.

And indeed some mark that can be noticed only after stripping the blade out of mountings completely.

Psyx
2010-07-30, 08:59 AM
Yes; I know. that's why I said 'the blade'. Taichis are worn blade down, Katana blade up. The smith's mark is stamped so that if the furniture wasn't visible, it would be sat facing outwards and right-way-up.


"I must admit that I don't actually speak any japanese, but at least a friend told me and dictionaries seem to support it."

Looking up the technicalities of anything in a dictionary is bound to go wrong. Try looking up something from a chosen area of interest and see how vague the definition is. Are all ball-games called 'soccer', because 'soccer' is defined as 'a ball-game'?

Prime32
2010-07-30, 09:07 AM
Looking up the technicalities of anything in a dictionary is bound to go wrong. Try looking up something from a chosen area of interest and see how vague the definition is. Are all ball-games called 'soccer', because 'soccer' is defined as 'a ball-game'?To be fair, the entry said "any sword".

Is an epee a kind of wide rapier or just the French word for sword?

Psyx
2010-07-30, 12:25 PM
A katana by very definitely isn't 'any' sword in Japanese. For a start it can only have a single edge. Really. It's not the right word at all.

Nihonto is a much more general term, which includes all Japanese swords. But 'To' (I have no idea how to put the horizontal line over the 'o'...) is the key part of the word... as in tanto (<1 shaku: Daggers), shoto (1-2 shaku. short swords), daito ('big swords'), koto (old swords), shinto (new swords), shinshinto (new, new swords), gunto (munitions quality pieces of crud swords).

lsfreak
2010-07-30, 02:08 PM
As offtopic, is " ç " pronounced like, or similary polish ć (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGLksjXlJw) ?

I could actually say it then. :smallbiggrin:

A quick search on wikipedia phonology pages says the Turkish sound is an English 'ch' or German 'tsch.' It is a j/soft g sound that's been word-finally devoiced (hence the alternative 'j' spelling), so with an affix it could become that sound.
So: pronounced differently, sounds almost identical. To my American ears, I can't tell the difference, except when I know I'm pronouncing one or the other.

Matthew
2010-07-30, 03:33 PM
Really? I was under the impression that a To is a sword. Katana are very specific in definition. The only difference between a Katana blade and a Taichi is which way up the smith's mark is struck, but it's enough to differentiate the two types.

"Tō" and "Katana" are different sounds used of the same Kanji; lots of Japanese sounds depend on context:

katana (刀) = sword
nihontō (日本刀) = Japanese Sword,

tantō (短刀) = dagger (general)
shōtō (小刀) = short sword (general, includes kodachi, wakizashi, etcetera)
daitō (大刀) = long sword (general, includes tachi, katana, etcetera)

kodachi (小太刀) = small sword (specific type)
tachi (太刀) = big sword (specific type)
ōdachi (大太刀) = great big sword (specific type)
nodachi (野太刀) = field sword (specific type)

I do not think "tō" is ever used by itself, however, but I could not swear to it. As I understand it (or as my fiancé, who is Japanese, explained it to me), any Japanese person reading the kanji "刀" alone will see "katana". It can mean both sword generally (as sword does in English) and katana specifically, but just as "sword" conjures a particular image in people's minds in English, so does 刀 in Japanese. Another word for sword in Japanese is "剣" or ken, which is a reading of a Chinese kanji (if I recall correctly); "剣士" or kenshi is a term meaning "swordsman", and of course "剣道" or kendo is "way of the sword" (though apparently that is not really the literal translation either)



It's pretty popular tale, arguably true, that many sword of more rich customers were tested against tied criminals for example.

I think that one has its roots more closely in World War II instances, in particular competitions between certain officers to see who could behead the most prisoners, or something pretty horrific like that. The closest I have heard to the practice in feudal/medieval Japan is testing on corpses, but it is not a great leap from there I suppose; could be true.

kc0bbq
2010-07-30, 05:10 PM
"Tō" and "Katana" are different sounds used of the same Kanji; lots of Japanese sounds depend on context:

I do not think "tō" is ever used by itself
It is not. The readin 'tou' is the Chinese based reading of the character. This is generally used when kanji are used together as compound kanji (multiple characters making up a single word). This is why it isn't 'katana' in any of those words with multiple characters, but 'tou'. 'katana' is the Japanese reading of the character. They are one in the same, context defines the subtleties. It also has another Japanese reading, 'sori', which is used in compounds that are Japanese-language specific. The word 'kamisori' for razor (literally 'shave-blade') uses this reading.

("tō" == "tou", just the difference in romanizing between systems, I learned the latter and the habit is hard to break...)

As for testing new swords on people, IIRC samurai technically had the right to test out a sword on lower classes, but it wasn't something that was usually done. Samurai didn't have the best outlook on their own morality, especially once Buddhism took hold. Many Buddhist samurai thought they were doomed to reincarnate as samurai. This outlook lead to a lot of interesting historical strangeness. A lot of beautiful art and poetry came out of samurai trying to atone for merely existing.

Matthew
2010-07-30, 05:30 PM
It is not. The readin 'tou' is the Chinese based reading of the character. This is generally used when kanji are used together as compound kanji (multiple characters making up a single word). This is why it isn't 'katana' in any of those words with multiple characters, but 'tou'. 'katana' is the Japanese reading of the character. They are one in the same, context defines the subtleties. It also has another Japanese reading, 'sori', which is used in compounds that are Japanese-language specific. The word 'kamisori' for razor (literally 'shave-blade') uses this reading.

("tō" == "tou", just the difference in romanizing between systems, I learned the latter and the habit is hard to break...)

Thought not. Any idea where the "tachi" sound comes from in "太刀"?

Thurbane
2010-07-30, 06:28 PM
"太刀"?
What font is this? It never seems to display properly on my PC?

Prime32
2010-07-30, 06:42 PM
What font is this? It never seems to display properly on my PC?You can download plugins for your browser for language support.

Matthew
2010-07-30, 07:20 PM
What font is this? It never seems to display properly on my PC?

No idea as to the font, but I am pretty sure Prime32 has the right of it as regards how I get it to display, a language plug-in for Fire Fox.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-30, 07:32 PM
Of what time?

And what longsword? XIIIa or XVa to use Oakeshott?

That won't be really the same at all or even similar thing in fact. Some of the XXa or XVa swords couldn't be really used to slice or possibly even cut anything for a life.

Some other even with typologically similar blade were cleavers.

That's bad generalization and won't really serve anyone well.

30-some inches long, double edged sword, typically with solid pommel and decently long crossguard. Mainly european, 13th-17th century, IIRC. Not all M-16s are alike either, but you can still get a pretty good idea of what you're talking about by saying "M-16", instead of going into exhaustive detail on model, accessories, etc.


Not to mention that in Japan they had armor resembling plate in use long before we had in Europe in fact.... Although those were mostly lammellar or similar stuff.

Lamellar is not plate. So yeah, leather and metal scales on cloth are not at all the same as metal plate armor.

Coidzor
2010-07-30, 10:33 PM
We classify each as longswords because both were blade weapons designed for the same purpose, killing. It is from this fact that they even have any similarities we can compare.

From that ARMA article... Oh man... My sides are splitting.

Worira
2010-07-31, 12:41 AM
From that ARMA article... Oh man... My sides are splitting.

Look at my longswords!http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms-and-armour/600/1906.64.1.jpg

Also, I stumbled across this (http://www.axtwerfen.de/Thr_A_Cha_ENGL.htm). It does not seem wise.

Psyx
2010-07-31, 07:07 AM
It is not. The readin 'tou' is the Chinese based reading of the character. This is generally used when kanji are used together as compound kanji (multiple characters making up a single word). This is why it isn't 'katana' in any of those words with multiple characters, but 'tou'. 'katana' is the Japanese reading of the character. They are one in the same, context defines the subtleties. It also has another Japanese reading, 'sori', which is used in compounds that are Japanese-language specific. The word 'kamisori' for razor (literally 'shave-blade') uses this reading.

("tō" == "tou", just the difference in romanizing between systems, I learned the latter and the habit is hard to break...)


Thanks; I've learned something today! I'm pretty sure I've seen 'to' used on it's own in a book before, but I'm now assuming that the author didn't speak Japanese.

So then what *is* the generic [spoken] word for sword? I've certainly never heard all swords described as katana, and the largest sub-divides I've ever encountered are the words for small/medium/long and those for Japanese/foreign.

Matthew
2010-07-31, 07:18 AM
So then what *is* the generic [spoken] word for sword? I've certainly never heard all swords described as katana, and the largest sub-divides I've ever encountered are the words for small/medium/long and those for Japanese/foreign.

As mentioned, either katana or ken. Typically, the former is used of Japanese swords, and the latter of foreign swords, but both can be used to mean sword generally. In modern Japanese it is much more usual to use ken in the general sense than katana, though.

Yora
2010-07-31, 07:44 AM
Thanks; I've learned something today! I'm pretty sure I've seen 'to' used on it's own in a book before, but I'm now assuming that the author didn't speak Japanese.

While the sound is really just a drawn out "o" and "tō" makes it easier to recognize the correct pronounciation, "tou" is actually closer to the original japanese writing.
Usually drawn out vowels are written by adding the vowel again to the syllable, like in "しい" - "shi-i". "O" is an exception in that you don't add another "o" but an "u". I don't think there's actually a real reason for it, it's just done that way. It's the same as in German, where a drawn out I is written "ie".
So while "tō" is easier to read for westerners, "tou" is more intuitive to Japanese writers.

Eldan
2010-07-31, 08:21 AM
Look at my longswords!http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms-and-armour/600/1906.64.1.jpg

Also, I stumbled across this (http://www.axtwerfen.de/Thr_A_Cha_ENGL.htm). It does not seem wise.

If they are bladed, which I assume, how do you even hold these?

Psyx
2010-07-31, 08:42 AM
As mentioned, either katana or ken. Typically, the former is used of Japanese swords, and the latter of foreign swords, but both can be used to mean sword generally. In modern Japanese it is much more usual to use ken in the general sense than katana, though.

Interesting. I'm of course familiar with 'ken', but I've not really encountered it on its own, and always assumed its use was more used as a verb/skill, with to(u) as the object itself, as I've never really seen it used on its own. I'd always been taught to use nihonto/yoto to describe Japanese/Everyone else's swords.

Matthew
2010-07-31, 08:57 AM
Interesting. I'm of course familiar with 'ken', but I've not really encountered it on its own, and always assumed its use was more used as a verb/skill, with to(u) as the object itself, as I've never really seen it used on its own. I'd always been taught to use nihonto/yoto to describe Japanese/Everyone else's swords.

There is probably a difference between specialised jargon and what the average modern Japanese person would say; nihontō is just literally a compound of "Japanese" and "Sword/Katana", which is obviously only relevant in situations where you want to be specific about where a sword originates (like English Long Bow), but I have never heard of yotō (to the best of my recollection); do you know the character for "yo"?* As I understand it, "ken" is the Japanese reading of same character used in Chinese that is read as "jian", whilst "katana" is the Japanese reading of the same character used in Chinese that is read as "dao", which is to say:

刀 = Dao = Katana
剣 = Jian = Ken

A quick look at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jian), though, shows that the situation is quite a bit more complex, and as far as Chinese goes I am way out of my depth. :smallbiggrin:

* The best I can determine "yo" may have the meaning "other" in this context, or literally "other swords". Ah, apparently it is a shortening of 西洋, which is western countries; so, 洋刀 = yōtō, or western swords, the opposite of 日本刀 in that context.

NEO|Phyte
2010-07-31, 08:57 AM
If they are bladed, which I assume, how do you even hold these?

With a good set of gloves?

Fhaolan
2010-07-31, 11:03 AM
To be fair, the entry said "any sword".

Is an epee a kind of wide rapier or just the French word for sword?

Actually, in historical context, the French didn't use the term 'rapier' at all, that's technically an English term (sorta) that comes from Norman French (who were not French-French as such.), and moved back into French after-the-fact.

Epee evolved from the Greek σπάθη (spathe), which means 'blade'.

Spatha - Roman long bladed sword
Spada - Itallian
Espada - Spanish
Espee - Medieval French
Epee - Modern French
Rapee - Norman French
Rapier - English

Also the English terms Spatula and Spade come from that root, so it doesn't mean *that* much. :)

So to be really technical, it's not the word for 'sword', it's the word for 'blade'.

Analytica
2010-08-02, 11:25 AM
I can't really think of any "pulling back" in kendo I've seen; you displace your opponent's sword and strike. If you land a men, kote, or tsuki, you've "killed" or "disabled" your opponent and don't need to pull back. If you land a do, you've gone past/through your opponent.

Well, it might refer to cases when you have locked blades with the opponent (tsuba-zeriai) following a failed charge or something. You might follow that up by, say, pushing the opponent's blade away slightly, then strike as you retreat to attack range and beyond (hiki). I am sure you have seen it sometime. However, I think it is rare that these moves actually score points, because reverse fumikomi and zanshin is so much harder to do properly.

Aroka
2010-08-02, 07:22 PM
Well, it might refer to cases when you have locked blades with the opponent (tsuba-zeriai) following a failed charge or something. You might follow that up by, say, pushing the opponent's blade away slightly, then strike as you retreat to attack range and beyond (hiki). I am sure you have seen it sometime. However, I think it is rare that these moves actually score points, because reverse fumikomi and zanshin is so much harder to do properly.

But that's actually very similar to what you'd do with longswords if you didn't want to wind & bind from that situation. It certainly doesn't define the style of combat.

Analytica
2010-08-04, 09:10 AM
But that's actually very similar to what you'd do with longswords if you didn't want to wind & bind from that situation. It certainly doesn't define the style of combat.

The way it seems to be it is just a way to try to save the situation somewhat after a regular forward assult failed, so certainly not typical of the style, no. :smallsmile: