Trolls as PCs [3.5/PF]

[Tanuki Tales]

Because this is a relevant question to me again and following the posting rules of this forum:


I'm looking for the best options (aka Base Classes, Prestige Classes, feats, skill tricks, etc.) for a Troll being played as a character (using Pathfinder's monster pc rules). And I mean things that really accentuate the natural proclivities of a Troll and not the creation of Emerald Legion Ikea Tarrasques. This is not theoretical game breaking stuff we're talking about but things that sane DMs (well, not counting that some would say giving any PC Regeneration is anything but sane) would actually let fly in their games.

Just want to say at the get go that I know War Hulk is an option, so please don't mention it.

[The Glyphstone]

Advantages of a Troll:
-Reach (from Large size)
-High Strength
-Regeneration

Weaknesses:
-Large Size (inconvenient at times)

Pick up a reach weapon, Stand Still, and some levels in Knight or Crusader and you'd make an extremely solid melee battlefield controller/tank. Flavor with the Improved Trip feat(s) to taste. This has the added benefit of turning your primary Weakness into a sometimes-Strength, by extending the total area you take up and threaten.

[AslanCross]

If the campaign will be mostly against intelligent humanoids, expect that they'll sooner or later find out you're weak to fire and acid, and will take every opportunity to attempt to kill you with fire.

That said, take advantage of your large size. I'm tempted to say Hulking Hurler, but you said "sane DM," so yeah. Melee classes are immediately preferred; Warblade and Crusader are straightforward choices; a Setting Sun/Tiger Claw Swordsage would work well with your natural abilities.

There's also Barbarian.

[The Glyphstone]

The way I look at it - Troll's aren't vulnerable to acid and fire. They're semi-invulnerable to everything except acid and fire. Pretty much everyone is weak vs. acid/fire unless precautions are taken, and Trolls actually benefit proportionately more from those same precautions...so get some Rings of Energy Resistance and you're golden.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would go barbarian for a while, then dip warblade for Iorn Heart Surge. It is a great way to overcome fatuige, a big barbarian weakness.

[Mojo_Rat]

If it is PF i would say Go Barbarian, use your large size and some of the rage powers for some battle field control stuff and have at it.


Fighter would probly work too but barbarian seems more fun.

[Zergrusheddie]

I wouldn't be too concerned about Fire and Acid. It doesn't matter unless it is a Total Party Wipe because you will otherwise just get back up. Based on the stats, if you were to beat a Troll into submission and than throw them into a bonfire, the odds are pretty good that they would wake up and get out of the fire.

[Tanuki Tales]

I would go barbarian for a while, then dip warblade for Iorn Heart Surge. It is a great way to overcome fatuige, a big barbarian weakness.

Using Iron Heart Surge to deal with Fatigue from Raging is kind of like using a SoD spell to get rid of a muskrat isn't it?

[subject42]

Dungeon Crasher Fighter would work well for a troll, given their high strength and size bonus for maneuvers.

[Escheton]

add in a lvl of crusader and warblade for the mino charge.
Then just stack on barb lvls.

[Ashiel]

Using Iron Heart Surge to deal with Fatigue from Raging is kind of like using a SoD spell to get rid of a muskrat isn't it?

Not really, and there are mechanical benefits for doing so. You see, PF Rage fatigues you for twice the number of rounds you were raging. There are several abilities that you can get that activate when you enter a rage; but you cannot enter a rage while you're already fatigued. This would allow the barbarian to "stance dance" so to speak by entering the rage and activating his ability, dropping the rage and using Iron Heart Surge, then immediately go back into a rage to activate the ability (or a different ability) quickly.

Alternatively, it's a very solid way to get your rage on should a caster hit you with ray of fatigue or something similar before you have a chance to Rage; throwing off Fatigue so you can enter your Rage normally.

Also, since you can IHS every other round (if you're not spending your swift actions on things), it can work out nicely. Not overpowered, and definitely makes for a fun way to fool around with your Rage. :smallsmile:

-----

Also for those wondering, Regeneration is Pathfinder is basically Fast Healing+. It grants fast healing and also prevents you from dying from HP damage, no matter how far you fall into the negatives; but hitting the creature with its vulnerable element shuts the regeneration down for 1 round. So fire and acid is like the finishing move for such creatures; since if you beat them to -30 or something and then burn them, their regeneration shuts down for 1 round (allowing them to die).

[Tanuki Tales]

-----

Also for those wondering, Regeneration is Pathfinder is basically Fast Healing+. It grants fast healing and also prevents you from dying from HP damage, no matter how far you fall into the negatives; but hitting the creature with its vulnerable element shuts the regeneration down for 1 round. So fire and acid is like the finishing move for such creatures; since if you beat them to -30 or something and then burn them, their regeneration shuts down for 1 round (allowing them to die).

Though remember that's only fatal if the damage is greater than their Con score.

[Ashiel]

Though remember that's only fatal if the damage is greater than their Con score.


Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

Format: regeneration 5 (fire, acid); Location: hp.

Where does it say that the damage has to exceed their Con, I ask you? :smallconfused:

[Tanuki Tales]

Where does it say that the damage has to exceed their Con, I ask you? :smallconfused:


Dead

The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

Emphasis mine though I keep forgetting its equal to, not exceeded. But you didn't exactly specify that they can survive past -10.

[Ashiel]

Emphasis mine though I keep forgetting its equal to, not exceeded. But you didn't exactly specify that they can survive past -10.

Ahh. I thought you meant as a quality of their regeneration. I (perhaps carelessly) mentioned -30 as some arbitrarily high number of negative hit points, though -300 would have worked as well; to say that 'till the round where they get hit with at least 1 point of anti-regen, then they won't die from HP damage.

That being said, the actual HP damage from the fire or acid (or whatever breaks your regen for 1 round) doesn't have to actually kill you. If your Con is 10 and you're sitting at -20, and you take 1 point of fire damage, you're dead. :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

Also for those wondering, Regeneration is Pathfinder is basically Fast Healing+. It grants fast healing and also prevents you from dying from HP damage, no matter how far you fall into the negatives; but hitting the creature with its vulnerable element shuts the regeneration down for 1 round. So fire and acid is like the finishing move for such creatures; since if you beat them to -30 or something and then burn them, their regeneration shuts down for 1 round (allowing them to die).

Well, that's interesting. It does make Trolls and other regenning creatures a lot less scary. On the other hand, for a PC situation like this, having Fire/Acid resistance or immunity becomes almost irrelevant.

[Tanuki Tales]

Ahh. I thought you meant as a quality of their regeneration. I (perhaps carelessly) mentioned -30 as some arbitrarily high number of negative hit points, though -300 would have worked as well; to say that 'till the round where they get hit with at least 1 point of anti-regen, then they won't die from HP damage.

That being said, the actual HP damage from the fire or acid (or whatever breaks your regen for 1 round) doesn't have to actually kill you. If your Con is 10 and you're sitting at -20, and you take 1 point of fire damage, you're dead. :smalltongue:

You'd have to be one seriously gimped Troll though since their lowest con naturally would be 13 (1 for the stat, +12 racial bonus).

@Glyph: Yup. One of the ways that Pathfinder tried to balance the game.

[Keld Denar]

Oh come on...I can't be the only one thinking TROLL PSYCHIC WARRIOR! Expand up to HUGE size, and you'll qualify for all kinds of fun things...like SNATCH! With your size and Str mods alone, you'll be tough to beat in grapples, and Snatch lets you fling enemies around with impunity. I can't be the only one who finds this hillarious...

[Tanuki Tales]

Oh come on...I can't be the only one thinking TROLL PSYCHIC WARRIOR! Expand up to HUGE size, and you'll qualify for all kinds of fun things...like SNATCH! With your size and Str mods alone, you'll be tough to beat in grapples, and Snatch lets you fling enemies around with impunity. I can't be the only one who finds this hillarious...

But Expansion is only temporary and can't allow you to qualify for feats.

[Keld Denar]

Nope. It totally does, at least according to the Sage...for what thats worth. You'd only be able to use the Snatch feat (and any feat built off it, like Multisnatch from Savage Species) while Expanded, but for most combats, you are gonna want to be Expanded anyway.

[Tanuki Tales]

Nope. It totally does, at least according to the Sage...for what thats worth. You'd only be able to use the Snatch feat (and any feat built off it, like Multisnatch from Savage Species) while Expanded, but for most combats, you are gonna want to be Expanded anyway.

That's really not worth anything and kind of goes against everything I've learned about how prerequisites work in DnD. o.0

[Keld Denar]

Considering nothing your character ever has is TRUELY permanant, it makes sense. I mean, you could play a Power Attacking fighter in a dungeon filled with Shadows. Between chugging Lesser Resto potions like a sailor on shoreleave, your Str will be all over the map. You might have that crappy Blindsight 5' radius feat that requires a 21 wisdom or something, only to run across an Allip or 3 and suffer some serious wisdom DRAIN, which doesn't grow back. Now you have a wasted feat and a headache. The sage's example was a character who uses Bracers of Dex to qualify for TWFing. If duration is a problem, consider rage and various rage based feats like Mad Foam Rager or Destructive Rage. A very experienced character could only rage what, 2-3 minutes a day, tops, and a 1st level barbarian would be lucky if he makes it to a full minute! How is that character supposed to train to gain abilities that augement their rage if they don't get a whole lot of practice? You make that practice count!

Just sayin...its all abstract. Have you ever sparred with someone? Have you ever sparred with someone for more than 5-6 minutes without stopping? It doesn't sound like it, but thats a LONG time to fight someone. Thats long enough to spend the whole shabang Expanded, and you can do that several times a day.

[Tanuki Tales]

Considering nothing your character ever has is TRUELY permanant, it makes sense. I mean, you could play a Power Attacking fighter in a dungeon filled with Shadows. Between chugging Lesser Resto potions like a sailor on shoreleave, your Str will be all over the map. You might have that crappy Blindsight 5' radius feat that requires a 21 wisdom or something, only to run across an Allip or 3 and suffer some serious wisdom DRAIN, which doesn't grow back. Now you have a wasted feat and a headache. The sage's example was a character who uses Bracers of Dex to qualify for TWFing. If duration is a problem, consider rage and various rage based feats like Mad Foam Rager or Destructive Rage. A very experienced character could only rage what, 2-3 minutes a day, tops, and a 1st level barbarian would be lucky if he makes it to a full minute! How is that character supposed to train to gain abilities that augement their rage if they don't get a whole lot of practice? You make that practice count!

Just sayin...its all abstract. Have you ever sparred with someone? Have you ever sparred with someone for more than 5-6 minutes without stopping? It doesn't sound like it, but thats a LONG time to fight someone. Thats long enough to spend the whole shabang Expanded, and you can do that several times a day.

That's why I like Pathfinder. It specifically says that bonuses from items (like those Bracers of Dexterity) eventually become permanent bonuses.

The rest of what you said is either how the rules work or contradict the rules.

You can only benefit from a feat or PrC as long as you qualify for it. As soon as you don't? You lose all benefits it grants.

[senrath]

Exactly. So if you're Expanded the moment you gain a level? You can take feats that require your current size. You just lose their benefits once you're no longer Expanded.

[Tanuki Tales]

Exactly. So if you're Expanded the moment you gain a level? You can take feats that require your current size. You just lose their benefits once you're no longer Expanded.

But levels are an abstract meta-game concept with no in-world basis, unlike magic or psionic powers.

[mangosta71]

For a troll PC, you should totally go sorcerer. You could be the only sorcerer in the history of D&D that actually takes touch spells.

[senrath]

But levels are an abstract meta-game concept with no in-world basis, unlike magic or psionic powers.

There still has to be a point where you go from one level to another. And if you're Expanded (or otherwise enlarged) at that point, you can select feats based on it.

[Tanuki Tales]

There still has to be a point where you go from one level to another. And if you're Expanded (or otherwise enlarged) at that point, you can select feats based on it.

No, there isn't. Level is a concept not attached to the quantified game world. You can't tell what level anyone is or what CR they are. All the spells and abilities that let you know something about another being just lets you know if they're stronger, weaker or on-par with you.

[senrath]

Actually, there is at least one spell that allows you to research a target's HD.

And saying that there is no point at which you level up is pretty much saying either:
1. No one gains any feats, skills, or new spells, because they never attain higher levels, or
2. There is no point to the leveling mechanic, because people get stronger without it, or
3. Something that I haven't thought of yet.


Besides, the feats require you to be X Size. You can be X size. Just not all the time.

[Tanuki Tales]

Actually, there is at least one spell that allows you to research a target's HD.

And saying that there is no point at which you level up is pretty much saying either:
1. No one gains any feats, skills, or new spells, because they never attain higher levels, or
2. There is no point to the leveling mechanic, because people get stronger without it, or
3. Something that I haven't thought of yet.


Besides, the feats require you to be X Size. You can be X size. Just not all the time.


It's 3 because I said it's a meta-game concept. You level up outside the game world in the world of players at one instant when you choose to level; but nothing says that the HP, skill ranks, etc. gained from leveling up occur at one instant instead of stretched out over a long length of time like in real life.

This whole line of discussion just feels munchkiny to me and I'd prefer if we didn't follow it. I don't feel like the average DM would allow someone to play prereqs this way.

[Prime32]

I don't see what's strange about the troll regularly enlarging himself in his downtime and training to make the most of that size. So he knows how to Snatch, but he can't do it in his normal state because his hands aren't big enough.


I would suggest dipping barbarian and taking the Blazing Berserker feat so you gain the Fire subtype while raging.

[Stephen_E]

Play to his Strengths

Reach, Str, Regen, Dex and oodles of Hit points.

I'd go for Fighter (you need the extra feats).
I'd seriously look at Shield and 1H Weapon fighting, with a 2H weapon back up when you need the REALLY big damage.
The Shield helps boost your AC so basically you are almost impossible to take down in a fight due to high AC, Hit points and Regen.
Also sets you up to take the Shield Mastery set with the free Bull Rush as part of a Shield Bash.
I'd then take the Power Attack/Improved Bull Rush/Greater Bull Rush to send them flying further (including off cliffs or into walls) and give AOOs to everyone, including you.

Toss in Combat Reflexes and if they try and get past you to get to the squishies you are protecting you shield bash them, damaging them and using the free Bull Rush to toss them back where they came from.

No need to waste a feat on Stand Still. :smallbiggrin:

Stephen E

[Fouredged Sword]

Odd thought, dip a few levels dragon shaman.

Yes it's sub optimal, but you use the vigor aura to keep everyone alive, have huge hp and con for breath saves. Get 4 levels and pick up a nice dragon to help your weaknesses, most offer ether acid or fire resistance. Now use your breath weapon for entangleing breath and laugh as your massive con boost makes the save very very high. Beat them into submission from outside thier reach with a large longspear.

Though a psi-war troll with a longspear is going to control a huge area of the battlefield. I could see this going into warhulk for an area attack that hits EVERYTHING!

[Escheton]

Exploding longspear?

[Sjet]

It's 3 because I said it's a meta-game concept. You level up outside the game world in the world of players at one instant when you choose to level; but nothing says that the HP, skill ranks, etc. gained from leveling up occur at one instant instead of stretched out over a long length of time like in real life.

This whole line of discussion just feels munchkiny to me and I'd prefer if we didn't follow it. I don't feel like the average DM would allow someone to play prereqs this way.

Then everyone always is meta-gaming. If your character constantly enlarges himself then it is quite easy to say that he noticed it'd be easier to grab people. I'd consider that less munchkiny than people that take most feats without playing the backstory especially since you can't use the feat all the time.

[Telonius]

I'm looking for the best options (aka Base Classes, Prestige Classes, feats, skill tricks, etc.) for a Troll being played as a character (using Pathfinder's monster pc rules). And I mean things that really accentuate the natural proclivities of a Troll and not the creation of Emerald Legion Ikea Tarrasques. This is not theoretical game breaking stuff we're talking about but things that sane DMs (well, not counting that some would say giving any PC Regeneration is anything but sane) would actually let fly in their games.

As I see it, you'll need the following to do this right.

- Has the "Abrasive" character trait.
- Good Bluff score is required. For some types, a high Disguise check or a method of appearing as though they're something else or otherwise hiding their alignment.
- Ability to overcome Banishment or Planar Binding effects
- Exactly one point in each Knowledge skill.
- Able to cast Rage at-will.
- Has to have access to Necromancy magic.
- Able to summon other creatures of his type.
- CE alignment.

[Tanuki Tales]

Then everyone always is meta-gaming. If your character constantly enlarges himself then it is quite easy to say that he noticed it'd be easier to grab people. I'd consider that less munchkiny than people that take most feats without playing the backstory especially since you can't use the feat all the time.

It's Munchkiny because it's playing fast and loose with the rules concerning how prerequisites works.

I've said that I don't want to follow this train of thought. If I, or any of the people who I know who DM, saw a player trying to pull this in a game that was being run we'd have a stern talk ready for them since it starts a slippery slope.

@Telonius: What?

[Telonius]

@Telonius: What?

... Oh. That sort of troll. :smallcool:

[Tanuki Tales]

... Oh. That sort of troll. :smallcool:

:smalltongue:

[Paul H]

Hi

Not sure, but I think you guys have missed a trick here.

Trolls are +5 LA, in addition to their 6HD, so Trolls 'lose' potentail 11 class levels.

Druid 5/Mstr Many Form 2 allows you to wildshape into a Troll. Druid 7 allows the 4th lvl spell (SpC) that grants you the extraordinary abilities too. (Regen, Rend, etc).

Your Troll 1st lvl Barbarian counts as 12th lvl character, with only 7HD. (+5 BAB). My Druid 10/MMF2 Troll is superior, with 12HD (+8 BAB).

And don't forget those nice 'Bite' series of spells in SpC too!

Thanks
Paul H

[Tanuki Tales]

Hi

Not sure, but I think you guys have missed a trick here.

Trolls are +5 LA, in addition to their 6HD, so Trolls 'lose' potentail 11 class levels.

Druid 5/Mstr Many Form 2 allows you to wildshape into a Troll. Druid 7 allows the 4th lvl spell (SpC) that grants you the extraordinary abilities too. (Regen, Rend, etc).

Your Troll 1st lvl Barbarian counts as 12th lvl character, with only 7HD. (+5 BAB). My Druid 10/MMF2 Troll is superior, with 12HD (+8 BAB).

And don't forget those nice 'Bite' series of spells in SpC too!

Thanks
Paul H


Um...

The first post did say "using Pathfinder Monster PC rules" which means that a Troll is an ECL 5 character at the get go. >.<

[Stephen_E]

And gets 2 additional leves 1/2 way through ther 2 and 3 Class levels, and between 5th and 6th level.

So when the party is 11th he will have 8 class levels.

Stephen E

[mangosta71]

All the more reason to make your troll a sorcerer.

[Keld Denar]

Troll Sorcerer + Blood Wind (SpC, Sorc/Wiz1) + long distance Rend = hillarious!

Alternatively, if you pick up Hidden Talent (Dim Hop or something), you could PrC your troll straight into Pyromancer. This would allow you to kill your enemies through the shear power of irony so hot it melts flesh.

[Fouredged Sword]

The reach you would get with the fire whip! 30ft reach at large, 45ft reach at huge with expansion!

That may be worth it.

Practiced manifester + overchannel may let you get to ML 8, then you can get size+2 for a 60 reach! No AoO though I think, as it counts as a whip.

[Makiru]

Troll Sorcerer specializing in touch spells is even funnier if you hold the charge, use the Detach feat to tear off the arm with the spell charge, then throw it for a....

ranged touch attack. :smallcool:

[Tanuki Tales]

Troll Sorcerer specializing in touch spells is even funnier if you hold the charge, use the Detach feat to tear off the arm with the spell charge, then throw it for a....

ranged touch attack. :smallcool:


That...is terrible. :smallbiggrin:

[tyckspoon]

It's Munchkiny because it's playing fast and loose with the rules concerning how prerequisites works.



I would dearly love to know which rules those are and where they are, because I have never seen them. I have seen dozens of people stating what they believe them to be and what they would like them to be, but as far as the rules themselves actually are concerned it appears to be a simple binary state: either you do have the prerequisite, or you do not. There is no statement regarding the duration of you having the prereq, only that you need to have it when you actually want to use the feat.

[Makiru]

That...is terrible. :smallbiggrin:

I know. :smallbiggrin: The concept was something I was completely serious about. I didn't realize I could make a pun until I was just about done writing it, which is why it's so stupid.

Also, if you're willing to use third party supplements, in Tome of Horrors 2 or 3 (can't remember without looking), there is a race called the trollblin, which is exactly what it sounds like: a troll-goblin hybrid. It's ECL 6 (3HD +3 LA), only has regeneration 2 but gains a random mutation of a chart when it gets hit by a critical.

[Tanuki Tales]

I would dearly love to know which rules those are and where they are, because I have never seen them. I have seen dozens of people stating what they believe them to be and what they would like them to be, but as far as the rules themselves actually are concerned it appears to be a simple binary state: either you do have the prerequisite, or you do not. There is no statement regarding the duration of you having the prereq, only that you need to have it when you actually want to use the feat.

And as I said, levels are a meta-game concept that do not occur at any one instant in game.

Expansion does not qualify you for size based feats, its a temporary bonus.

[Stephen_E]

And as I said, levels are a meta-game concept that do not occur at any one instant in game.

But they ARE a part of the mechanics game, whether you like it or not, and prereqs are equally a part of the mechanics of the game, and also metagaming. So your philosophical point doesn't stand.



Expansion does not qualify you for size based feats, its a temporary bonus.

In Pathfinder you may be correct because they specify how long you need to maintain a temporary bonus (24hrs IIRC) to be able to use it to qualify for acting as a prereq. If you can't maintain expansion for 24 hrs then it can't be used to qualify for a prereq.

3.5 never got around to been that specfic. Magic items that give you a semi-permanent bonus are expicitly sufficient, a single casting of Bulls Str would implicitly not be. The area inbetween is left to GMs to decide.

Stephen E

[Tanuki Tales]

But they ARE a part of the mechanics game, whether you like it or not, and prereqs are equally a part of the mechanics of the game, and also metagaming. So your philosophical point doesn't stand.


Stephen E

Page 58 of the Player's Handbook states both that XP is handed out at the end of an adventure by the DM and that a character must train or practice in-between adventures lest they run risk of the DM either cutting down the XP they had just earned or having them lose XP. This gives the idea that the leveling process occurs between adventures and over an extended period of time in-game.

A Troll with an augmented Expansion and a Manifester Level of 20 (16 Psyw levels and Practiced Manifester) can keep Expansion going for ~86 hours (assuming he has the standard action every 3 hours and 20 minutes to put back up the Expansion), (also assuming the base PP for a 16th level Psyw which is 79 points).

But once his PP are empty after those ~3 days he has to rest 8 hours to replenish his PP supply to pull the trick again. So there is an 8 hour period every ~3 days he is not of Huge size category and since its implied that the leveling process is stretched out between adventures then he can't qualify for size based feats. And that's at level 20 going into Epic. The durations and capabilities at the get go are even bleaker.

Anyways, this goes against what I asked in the first post since getting this to fly would most likely require you to convince your DM to allow prereqs to work this loosely and it could start a slippery slope in the game.

It's much easier to just use your WBL to get Enlarge Person permanencied on the Troll. (Not viable in 3.5 since Giant is a type and not a subtype but it'd most likely to get that Rule 0 instead of the silliness suggested so far.)

[The Glyphstone]

Is it really that cheesy though? Feats are precious things, even in Pathfinder with its extra feat slots - you're permanently giving up one of those slots for an ability you'll only be able to use a fraction of the time.

As long as you/the DM restricts the use of the feat to when you fully meet the prerequisites (I.e., if you learn it via the use of Expansion, you can only use it while Expanded), then it's not that bad.

[Tanuki Tales]

Is it really that cheesy though? Feats are precious things, even in Pathfinder with its extra feat slots - you're permanently giving up one of those slots for an ability you'll only be able to use a fraction of the time.

As long as you/the DM restricts the use of the feat to when you fully meet the prerequisites (I.e., if you learn it via the use of Expansion, you can only use it while Expanded), then it's not that bad.

Oh, I fully know that. It's really not that bad a thing to pull but its more the principle of the matter. If the DM allows you to bend/break the rules like that over that where does it stop? Especially in groups that lean towards power gaming or munchkining or just don't have a good grasp of the rules and prefer to do things that sound cool regardless if it'd be horribly broken or mostly undoable?

I prefer things that are rooted firmly in the rules.


Edit: Anyways, assuming baseline stuff, this trick can't be pulled off before ECL 16 (Troll 5/PsyW 11 with Practiced Manifester) which means you wouldn't gain access to the feats before ECL 17 or 18. Do you really want to bend the rules over something so trivial so late in the game?

[The Glyphstone]

What rules are being bent? It's either in the rules or the errata that if you stop meeting the prerequisites for a feat/class, you lose all of its abilities. There are no rules governing exactly when you level up, aside from some very vague suggestions in the 3.5 book - a DM could play his games VRPG-style, where XP is dished out in combat and you might 'level up' midway through Great Cleaving some kobolds...and while it'd be a kick in the nads to versimilitude for some people, it's within the DM's rights to play that way. In that case, if the player happened to be Expanded when those kobolds died, he'd be fine.

Heck, I'd allow it even if Expansion couldn't be made 24-hours plus yet..because it's cool. Maybe it's bending the RAW, but it makes sense to me that a character who spends pretty much all his time in combat much bigger than normal would have learned a nifty way to take advantage of his increased size, though he simply doesn't have the bulk to take advantage of said trick when he's not bigger than normal. If a player asked me for it, I'd allow it, since making the game fun for everyone is more important than sticking strictly to the RAW. Similarly, I make all houserules/modifications in my games with everyone's understanding that I do not consider precedent - previous rulings are no support for future ones. It works out well, for us at least.




Edit: Anyways, assuming baseline stuff, this trick can't be pulled off before ECL 16 (Troll 5/PsyW 11 with Practiced Manifester) which means you wouldn't gain access to the feats before ECL 17 or 18. Do you really want to bend the rules over something so trivial so late in the game?

Flip that around...assuming you are bending the rules, it's so late in the game and so trivial, is it really worth stressing about? Based on the two camps you described above - the powergamers/munchkins won't have much time to take advantage of the precedent before the game ends, and the 'rule of cool' gamers will just be happy they get something awesome to do.

[mangosta71]

I don't see it as bending or breaking the rules. I mean, if you magically shrink a minotaur down to medium or small size, it loses access to any size-related feats until the effect wears off, but it still has those feats even if it can't use them.

I once played a werebear monk that took the Awesome Blow (iirc) feat. However, in my human shape I was only medium-sized (one of the prereqs is large or larger), so I could only use it when I shifted. What we're discussing is pretty much the same - if he can increase his size, at will and for extended periods of time, why should he not be able to take feats by the increased size (granted that he will lose any special abilities the feat grants while normal-sized)?

[Tanuki Tales]

What rules are being bent? It's either in the rules or the errata that if you stop meeting the prerequisites for a feat/class, you lose all of its abilities. There are no rules governing exactly when you level up, aside from some very vague suggestions in the 3.5 book - a DM could play his games VRPG-style, where XP is dished out in combat and you might 'level up' midway through Great Cleaving some kobolds...and while it'd be a kick in the nads to versimilitude for some people, it's within the DM's rights to play that way. In that case, if the player happened to be Expanded when those kobolds died, he'd be fine.

Heck, I'd allow it even if Expansion couldn't be made 24-hours plus yet..because it's cool. Maybe it's bending the RAW, but it makes sense to me that a character who spends pretty much all his time in combat much bigger than normal would have learned a nifty way to take advantage of his increased size, though he simply doesn't have the bulk to take advantage of said trick when he's not bigger than normal. If a player asked me for it, I'd allow it, since making the game fun for everyone is more important than sticking strictly to the RAW. Similarly, I make all houserules/modifications in my games with everyone's understanding that I do not consider precedent - previous rulings are no support for future ones. It works out well, for us at least.



Flip that around...assuming you are bending the rules, it's so late in the game and so trivial, is it really worth stressing about? Based on the two camps you described above - the powergamers/munchkins won't have much time to take advantage of the precedent before the game ends, and the 'rule of cool' gamers will just be happy they get something awesome to do.

The rules being bent/broken are the ones concerning prerequisites.

And this whole tit for tat isn't about the Troll being able to use or keep the feats, it's whether he can even qualify for them in the first place.

Yes you could Rule of Cool it to work or change how you level or what ever but I've always played in groups that try to find RAW explanations and basis's for anything they do because only RAW remains constant across all gaming groups and, at least with the ones I've had, DMs tend to listen and work with something that at least has a starting point in the RAW.

The problem is it's not too late, at all. There's retraining to think about as an option and what if the PG/M character is killed off and they need to roll up a new one? They now have precedent to try and whine incredibly stupid stuff past the DM because he already allowed something that probably was against the rules.

I am in no way saying that Expansion Troll + Huge feats are broken or out of line to Rule 0 in. I just believe that sticking to what is definitely allowed by RAW leaves less room for headaches down the line.

@Mang: It's...not really. Being a Werebear definitely counts as a permanent condition. Unless you're cured, you're always going to be a Werebear. It just happens that you can change your shape and size to something smaller or larger without a duration. Sure an Anti-Magic/Psionic field will knock you down just like an Expanded Troll but your size increase is more of a natural, consistent thing than a spell/power duration (not including a permanently Enlarged Troll.)


Regardless, I've stated on this matter that I don't believe its a viable option and even if after hours of rule lawyering argument that it turns out to be one, I still have no interest to use it. So could we please drop it?

I'll concede that it can work because the grounds that say it can't are shaky and ill-defined in 3.5 but that happens for countless other things that people agree that most DMs would shoot down.

[mangosta71]

@Mang: It's...not really. Being a Werebear definitely counts as a permanent condition. Unless you're cured, you're always going to be a Werebear. It just happens that you can change your shape and size to something smaller or larger without a duration. Sure an Anti-Magic/Psionic field will knock you down just like an Expanded Troll but your size increase is more of a natural, consistent thing than a spell/power duration (not including a permanently Enlarged Troll.)Actually, a Null X Field does not force a lycanthrope into his human form. It's actually fun to wade into one and just keep knocking the enemy caster back into it when he tries to escape so he can use his spells. :smallamused:

But yes, the discussion is going rather far afield.

[Tanuki Tales]

Actually, a Null X Field does not force a lycanthrope into his human form. It's actually fun to wade into one and just keep knocking the enemy caster back into it when he tries to escape so he can use his spells. :smallamused:

But yes, the discussion is going rather far afield.

Change Shape is an Su ability, not Ex.

[Keld Denar]

You aren't training 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, I don't care who you are. You don't need a permanent effect to learn how to do something. You practice picking up people and throwing them at other people, or walls, or off cliffs for what, a couple hours a day? Tops! Prolonged stress on muscles causes more harm than good. Even the most dedicated swordsman has to put the sword down to eat breakfast, kiss his wife, answer the call of nature, and sleep. Stating otherwise is rediculous and absurd.

Requiring the effect to be permanent to take a feat is likewise absurd. Training, if any, is done while under the effect of the power, spell, or item. Likewise, you get the benefit of that training while you are similarly under the effect of the power, spell, or item. Just because Bruce Banner can't pick up a car and throw it, doesn't mean he doesn't know how. When he's The Hulk, though, he has the muscle mass and strength needed to manipulate the car and hurl it at a tank.

Also, nothing says you NEED to have that effect to train. In the Snatch example, you can scale it down, practice on approprately sized sand bags or something, and then when you've perfected the tecnique, use the power and practice with people or animals or larger sandbags.

You personally may not like it, but that doesn't mean its not right. Don't let your personal opinions cloud your judgement. You are seeing what you want to see because you want to see it. Wizards First Rule.

[Tanuki Tales]

You aren't training 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, I don't care who you are. You don't need a permanent effect to learn how to do something. You practice picking up people and throwing them at other people, or walls, or off cliffs for what, a couple hours a day? Tops! Prolonged stress on muscles causes more harm than good. Even the most dedicated swordsman has to put the sword down to eat breakfast, kiss his wife, answer the call of nature, and sleep. Stating otherwise is rediculous and absurd.

Requiring the effect to be permanent to take a feat is likewise absurd. Training, if any, is done while under the effect of the power, spell, or item. Likewise, you get the benefit of that training while you are similarly under the effect of the power, spell, or item. Just because Bruce Banner can't pick up a car and throw it, doesn't mean he doesn't know how. When he's The Hulk, though, he has the muscle mass and strength needed to manipulate the car and hurl it at a tank.

Also, nothing says you NEED to have that effect to train. In the Snatch example, you can scale it down, practice on approprately sized sand bags or something, and then when you've perfected the tecnique, use the power and practice with people or animals or larger sandbags.

You personally may not like it, but that doesn't mean its not right. Don't let your personal opinions cloud your judgement. You are seeing what you want to see because you want to see it. Wizards First Rule.

The point has been dropped. :smallannoyed: