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Adrayll
2010-07-27, 11:03 PM
So i'm looking to pick a character once my turn DMing is over (3.5e). We'll be around level 5 or so. I've been looking at warlocks, and they look like they would be fun to play. What is the general opinion of warlocks? Are they effective? What are their strengths and weaknesses? Things to beware of? High points?

Also, i seem to remember somewhere about warlocks having behavioral injunctions for fluff reasons, or something like that. Where is that, and am I imagining that?

Also, any other suggestions along similar lines?

Prodan
2010-07-27, 11:04 PM
They're ok.

awa
2010-07-27, 11:07 PM
They are pretty good characters at the lower end of optimization and their a lot less book keeping then the other magic using classes.

edit hideous blow (i think that was what it's called) is a terrible terrible power never pick it.

While charisma increases your dc you don't actually need a good charisma because many if not most abilities do not give saves anyhow.

TooManyBadgers
2010-07-27, 11:31 PM
The behavior thing is probably coming from the Binder (a separate base class from the Tome of Magic) dip that's often exploited to use Hellfire Warlock (a prestige class from the Fiendish Codex 2) without suffering the associated drawbacks.

gorfnab
2010-07-28, 12:09 AM
This handbook can give you a rundown on what you can expect from warlock and how to build more effective ones: Warlock Information Compilation (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2915.0)

Prodan
2010-07-28, 12:15 AM
Also, i seem to remember somewhere about warlocks having behavioral injunctions for fluff reasons, or something like that. Where is that, and am I imagining that?

Player's Handbook 2

Xefas
2010-07-28, 02:48 AM
In my personal experience, if your group doesn't spend a lot of time on internet forums or playing at conventions, there's a good chance they'll tell you Warlocks are the most broken thing in the history of D&D.

My primary group, fortunately, didn't fall prey to this, but it seems like any other group I've met swears up and down that Warlocks are the epitome of everything that is wrong mechanically with the system.

This conversation, almost verbatim:
Me: "Well, I was considering something like a Sorcerer or a Warlo-"
DM Guy: "Warlock?! BLARAGHABLARAHG -8 minute tirade-"
Me: "But, I-"
DM Guy: "Nooooo! BLARAGAHGHAG -3 more minutes of garbled hatred-"
Me: "Well...maybe an Artificer."
DM Guy: "Those underpowered sacks of crap? Meh, I guess if you wanna be a gimp."

That aside, when I'm DMing, I let Warlocks get 1 invocation per level as a moderate buff to the class. When I'm playing, I like Summon Swarm at level 1, or possibly Baleful Utterance if you feel like getting creative and your DM is lenient in that regard. Try to sunder quivers, spell component pouches, codpieces, etc.

super dark33
2010-07-28, 02:52 AM
warlocks are awosome, if you add the prestiege class of putting a demon in you (i dont know what it called in english) itll be better
hideos blaw is good if you have high str

TooManyBadgers
2010-07-28, 03:17 AM
warlocks are awosome, if you add the prestiege class of putting a demon in you (i dont know what it called in english) itll be better
hideos blaw is good if you have high str

Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3) takes a full round of inactivity to use its abilities at all, doesn't get the crafting abilities which provide high-level Warlocks with versatility, doesn't advance Eldritch Blast or the caster level of your invocations, requires Drow (and thus +2 LA, which is a very bad thing) and delays invocation advancement in exchange for some pretty mediocre abilities (which are only usable a few times per day). It's not unplayable, but be warned that it kind of sucks.

And Hideous Blow turns your ranged touch attack into a melee attack (a bad thing) that requires a weapon attack roll (also a bad thing) to take effect, and eats one of your invocations known to do so.

Either can be used in a workable character, but both make a Warlock weaker than avoiding them altogether.

unimaginable
2010-07-28, 04:42 AM
Hideous Blow is ass, but Eldritch Glaive is fun. Works vaguely like Hideous Blow, except it doesn't suck.

Greenish
2010-07-28, 05:52 AM
Baleful Utterance if you feel like getting creative and your DM is lenient in that regard. Try to sunder quivers, spell component pouches, codpieces, etc.That is a strike below the belt. You, sir, are no gentleman.

Or, as the movie quote goes: How unsporty! They must be Belgians!

Vantharion
2010-07-28, 07:16 AM
That is a strike below the belt. You, sir, are no gentleman.

Or, as the movie quote goes: How unsporty! They must be Belgians!

This combination just made my morning.

I shattered my player cleric's Longsword... Which also happened to be his Holy Symbol...

However it was not outright because I'm cruel, more because his character was a zealous xenophobic cleric of heironeous and wouldn't loot magical items or upgrades because it was against his character's nature (Even those as a player he LOVES loot)

I've been considering playing a 'reskinned' warlock.
Warlocks draw their power from a 'source' that grants them it; usually fiends, demons, fey... And PHB2 I believe mentions gaining Celestial power.
I was considering asking my DM if he would let me play a Celestial Powered Warlock who would be Lawful Good (Crusader Overzealous) even though its against the usual alignment requirements.

I personally think that the +6 to Intimidate, Diplo and Bluff invocation is amazing, and with a bit of tweaking is REALLY powerful.

I would talk to your DM before you grab (And abuse) the Fly Invocation. Generally in my games/friends games we agree not to do completely jerk moves... They don't grab Fly and cast the Locate City Bomb with Energy addition - Fire near the top of the atmosphere... I won't throw Dire Acid Sharks with Class levels at them...
Some DMs enjoy the challenge of handling whatever the players throw at them, my group mostly enjoys trying to stay within the Dungeon paradigm which D&D works best in.

Hideous Blow is really bad though. Swarm is just godly at low levels however.

Greenish
2010-07-28, 07:33 AM
This combination just made my morning.

I shattered my player cleric's Longsword... Which also happened to be his Holy Symbol...

However it was not outright because I'm cruel, more because his character was a zealous xenophobic cleric of heironeous and wouldn't loot magical items or upgrades because it was against his character's nature (Even those as a player he LOVES loot)

I've been considering playing a 'reskinned' warlock.
Warlocks draw their power from a 'source' that grants them it; usually fiends, demons, fey... And PHB2 I believe mentions gaining Celestial power.
I was considering asking my DM if he would let me play a Celestial Powered Warlock who would be Lawful Good (Crusader Overzealous) even though its against the usual alignment requirements.

I personally think that the +6 to Intimidate, Diplo and Bluff invocation is amazing, and with a bit of tweaking is REALLY powerful.

I would talk to your DM before you grab (And abuse) the Fly Invocation. Generally in my games/friends games we agree not to do completely jerk moves... They don't grab Fly and cast the Locate City Bomb with Energy addition - Fire near the top of the atmosphere... I won't throw Dire Acid Sharks with Class levels at them...
Some DMs enjoy the challenge of handling whatever the players throw at them, my group mostly enjoys trying to stay within the Dungeon paradigm which D&D works best in.Wait, which edition are you talking about? And what "fly power" is so broken?

Telonius
2010-07-28, 07:52 AM
Their biggest problem is that the damage scales poorly per level. At 20th level, you get a whopping 9d6 base damage for your eldritch blast, +2d6 if you have a Chasuble. (Some Blasts can add extra status effects and negative levels, but by the time you get them a lot of things will be immune). 11d6, or 38.5 damage, once per round. You can bump up the total amount of damage dealt a bit by using Blast Shape essences to get Cones or Bursts, but other than that, there's not much to be done. Meanwhile, the Fighter has just one-shotted the Tarrasque, the Druid and his dog have eaten half your opponents, the Wizard has made his own demiplane and declared himself God, and the Rogue just dealt 10d6+20 sneak attack damage per hit from having Craven.

That's not to say they're useless characters. For a sneaky campaign, they can work extremely well. As mentioned before, with some Binder shenanigans and Hellfire Warlock, they can get an extra 6d6 damage per eldritch blast at basically no cost. UMD as a class skill is always a great plus. And they can be absolutely terrific bad guys - "Flee the Scene" alone is great for escaping. The other time they really shine is when the party has to do with multiple encounters per day. The other casters have a limit on spells per day, but the Warlock never runs out of invocations.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-07-28, 08:22 AM
Their biggest problem is that the damage scales poorly per level. At 20th level, you get a whopping 9d6 base damage for your eldritch blast, +2d6 if you have a Chasuble. (Some Blasts can add extra status effects and negative levels, but by the time you get them a lot of things will be immune). 11d6, or 38.5 damage, once per round. You can bump up the total amount of damage dealt a bit by using Blast Shape essences to get Cones or Bursts, but other than that, there's not much to be done. Meanwhile, the Fighter has just one-shotted the Tarrasque, the Druid and his dog have eaten half your opponents, the Wizard has made his own demiplane and declared himself God, and the Rogue just dealt 10d6+20 sneak attack damage per hit from having Craven. Actually, there's other ways to improve this. Empower and Quicken SLA feats both work for EB and will significantly increase damage output if used judiciously. Breaking Action Economy also works well, but beware DM's wrath.


That's not to say they're useless characters. For a sneaky campaign, they can work extremely well. As mentioned before, with some Binder shenanigans and Hellfire Warlock, they can get an extra 6d6 damage per eldritch blast at basically no cost. UMD as a class skill is always a great plus. And they can be absolutely terrific bad guys - "Flee the Scene" alone is great for escaping. The other time they really shine is when the party has to do with multiple encounters per day. The other casters have a limit on spells per day, but the Warlock never runs out of invocations.

6d6? You, my friend, need to expand your horizons.

Since we're already using Nab or Stronheart to bypass the penalties of HFW, we may we well get every last drop out of it. Legacy Champion is an otherwise uninteresting PrC, which advances class abilities 8/10. So you pick HFW to advance.

With Binder1/Warlock6/HFW3/Legacy Champion 10, you have +22d6 from Hellfire Blast. Have a nice day.

Furnok
2010-07-28, 08:44 AM
Right now I’m in a campaign that is mostly in cities and deals mainly with spy missions. So my Warlock is kitted out with the +6 Imt/Dip/Bluff he is 3rd level and can bluff the pants off of guards, spider climb, and he can shatter and locks he wants. My warlock teamed up with a skill monkey rouge and they are a extremely well paired spying team. I think the best thing about a Warlock is they are extremely flexible especially at higher levels when you get the ability to make items and get the take 10 ability with UMD. One of their weaknesses is that at higher levels they will never be the “heavy hitter” but more of a support member of a group.

Vantharion
2010-07-28, 08:54 AM
Wait, which edition are you talking about? And what "fly power" is so broken?

It isn't that fly is directly 'Broken' its that it usually changes the paradigm of gameplay away from what my group prefers to play.
If player A (Wizard) flies, the DM adapts and throws something to challenge player A, a gargoyle. say the gargoyle is pestering the wizard in the air. The makes the fighter less useful who has stacked his feats together so he's good with a melee weapon, his usefulness with a bow is nil.

Fly is one of those moves I consider to be not quite as nice to the DM, like using class or feat selection without running it by the DM or saying 'Screw the plot, I dimension shift away' because the DM drank the last soda.
It doesn't break the gameplay, it just can be bothersome.
This isn't saying that we never break those paradigms, we just don't play DND like it's all out war between the player and the DM. The reason we do this, is when it comes to Rules vs Fun, fun usually wins at our table.

thompur
2010-07-28, 08:56 AM
Warlocks are great fun to [play! They can't be broken(in an overpowered way), and, with the exception of hideous blow, any invocations you take can be useful, to varying degrees. Get Fell Flight or Flee the Scene as your first lesser invocation. FF for 24hr/day flying( obviously very useful, but not overpowering), and FtS is one of the very few invocations that can help others in the party( you can take other party members with you). I eventually get both, since the lesser level doesn't have that many really good offensive invocations.

Bosh
2010-07-28, 09:02 AM
Warlocks are a very fun class to play without being powerful.

However, pretty much everyone who doesn't have a good grasp of 3.5ed mechanics thinks that they're overpowered. It's gotten to a point in which "do you think that warlocks are overpowered" is a good litmus test for figuring out if people have a good grasp of how 3.5ed mechanics work. So the biggest downside of playing them is listening to people blather (falsely) about how overpowered they are, usually by construction bizarre hypothetical situations that would let warlocks kick a lot of ass that never actually happen in real campaigns.

For example the GMs that I've played with have pretty much ALL banned warlocks for being overpowered and the only class any of them banned aside from warlocks was the dragon shaman. Everyone was fine with druids because everyone knows that core is balanced *head desk*

Lysander
2010-07-28, 09:23 AM
Playing a warlock is basically like playing a superhero. You get a small but growing list of powers you can use whenever you want.

The downside is that your powers don't expand exponentially as you get more powerful. A wizard or sorcerer can enslave mighty demons and angels, make their own dimensions, etc. You on the other hand get to do stuff like fly, teleport, and be invisible without limit. It's still really good, but it's not world changing in its scope. In some ways this is a plus because warlocks still get some potent abilities but are far less likely to derail a campaign world.

Warlocks btw are not necessarily evil. You can choose to gain power either from demons or from the fey. If the latter then you only have to be chaotic.

Furnok
2010-07-28, 09:34 AM
The only problem my DM had with my Warlock is that the EB/invocations never run out and that the damage from EB was un-typed magical energy (he is really big into giving the bad guys energy resistances). But then I give him the argument that yeah they never run out but the range is limited, they do very little when compared to the fighters w/ multiply attacks, and little damage when compared to any of the wizards evocation spells.

Also his DM style is more of a crawl style where we go through a whole bunch of encounters so the use of resources have to be closely watched because a lot of times it seems the big bad guys always pounce when we have been girding through a long dungeon and HP/spells are low. With other groups that only have 2-3 really big encounters then rest the Warlock is not as powerful. To me the Warlock is a good character for long grinding campaigns, solo campaigns, or as a support role to an average size group where all of the traditional roles are filled (Tank, Spell caster, Healer, and Skill Monkey).

Sergeantbrother
2010-07-28, 09:37 AM
Warlocks are a very fun class to play without being powerful.

However, pretty much everyone who doesn't have a good grasp of 3.5ed mechanics thinks that they're overpowered. It's gotten to a point in which "do you think that warlocks are overpowered" is a good litmus test for figuring out if people have a good grasp of how 3.5ed mechanics work. So the biggest downside of playing them is listening to people blather (falsely) about how overpowered they are, usually by construction bizarre hypothetical situations that would let warlocks kick a lot of ass that never actually happen in real campaigns.

For example the GMs that I've played with have pretty much ALL banned warlocks for being overpowered and the only class any of them banned aside from warlocks was the dragon shaman. Everyone was fine with druids because everyone knows that core is balanced *head desk*

It strikes me as strange that so many people think that they are overpowered, perhaps because in D&D and among D&D players there is too much importance placed on being able to use the same super-natural power over and over again. While it is convenient to be able to use a power as many times as you want, when you have the shear power and diversity of the spell list that a normal caster has, you really don't need a literally unlimited number of castings.

I like warlocks for the same reason I like spontaneous casting, its a pain in the butt to keep up with number of spells of each level a day much less which spells have been memorized - which is why a warlock is cool. But they certainly aren't as powerful as a normal caster.

Lysander
2010-07-28, 11:02 AM
I think it's that in some situations a warlock's powers are an "I WIN" button. If you can fly and shoot eldritch blasts without limit, you can kill anything that can't fly and has no ranged attack. And you can do it all day. So it's not that warlocks are overpowered against all enemies. Just ones with few ways of responding to magical opponents. Even though invocations are not on the whole that powerful, some opponents don't have a way to respond. Which just means the DM has to pick enemies more carefully.

Theodoxus
2010-07-28, 11:11 AM
If it were couched in those terms, I think any reasonable DM would agree with you. However, nearly everytime I've seen someone broach the subject of Warlocks, it goes something like:

Player 1: "I want to play a Warlock!"
DM: "uh, no, they're too powerful"
Player 1: "What?!? They have like 2 spells."
Player 2: "Yeah! Unlimited spells!"
DM: "Exactly, even the ranger will run out of arrows eventually."
Player 1: "But that's cool! Unlimited flight too!"
DM: "What!?! You can't get flight, no way, that'll break the game. You'll make the wizard cry"
Player 2: "I want unlimited flight! Then I can throw fireballs on the ground and burn people!!!"
Player 1: "Ooh, that sounds fun! I can make my blast go in a cone, straight down!"
DM: "And that's why I said no."

Even in this day and age of the internet hive mind, too many people associate spellcasters with blasters. Warlocks are crappy casters, but they get all the abilities a blaster would ever want...

Unlimited blast? check
Unlimited flight? check
Unlimited invisibility? check
Useful abilities that make their blasts more effective? check

Warlocks make even blasting Psions cry. All I can say is thank god blasting is so suboptimal for eliminating badguys. They're fun (especially cranking out 22d6 - earthquake!) but not campaign ending.

TooManyBadgers
2010-07-28, 12:16 PM
The Warlocks=Broken thing could be coming from groups that start at level 1, when all-day* 3-dimensional mobility is unique and 1d6 (or, heaven forbid, 1d8+1d6+1.5xStr) is enough to drop most enemies. Sure, Incarnum does it better, but I don't think the sorts of groups that balk at the Warlock would exactly embrace the Totemist either.

Also, in the wrong hands, at-will Shatter can get really annoying really ****ing fast.

*The quic-n-easy solution for a DM frustrated by a Wizard evading an encounter with Fly is to throw another encounter in once the Wizard doesn't have Fly. Warlocks don't allow that.

Prodan
2010-07-28, 12:23 PM
*The quic-n-easy solution for a DM frustrated by a Wizard evading an encounter with Fly is to throw another encounter in once the Wizard doesn't have Fly. Warlocks don't allow that.

Dungeon with low ceilings.

super dark33
2010-07-28, 12:44 PM
Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3) takes a full round of inactivity to use its abilities at all, doesn't get the crafting abilities which provide high-level Warlocks with versatility, doesn't advance Eldritch Blast or the caster level of your invocations, requires Drow (and thus +2 LA, which is a very bad thing) and delays invocation advancement in exchange for some pretty mediocre abilities (which are only usable a few times per day). It's not unplayable, but be warned that it kind of sucks.

than avoiding them altogether.

no no , in the full arcane, there is a prestieg class with a picture showing a demon scaring a big orc

Adrayll
2010-07-28, 12:48 PM
BTW, if you've modified your blast, can you turn those off. ie: your blast deals fire damage, and you come across a fire elemental. are you screwed? or can you temporarily "turn off" the fire aspect of it?

EDIT: (ninja'd)


no no , in the full arcane, there is a prestieg class with a picture showing a demon scaring a big orc

that's acolyte of the skin

Prodan
2010-07-28, 12:49 PM
Yes you can.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-07-28, 12:54 PM
that's acolyte of the skin

And it sucks even worse, due to 1/2 casting progression

CubeB
2010-07-28, 01:04 PM
Warlocks are far from overpowered. Without feat investments or epic levels, you only know 12 spells. They're useful spells, but you're far less versatile than a wizard.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-28, 01:35 PM
A warlock is a great party face at lower levels if done right. +6 to the big three of party faceing is crazy at low levels. A high charisma and a invocation to case a debuff at 3rd level will make you noticable, but not as a wizard, more like a rogue without trapfinding. Another way to look at it is a warlock is an agressive bard, debuffing insted of buffing.

LurkerInPlayground
2010-07-28, 01:39 PM
edit hideous blow (i think that was what it's called) is a terrible terrible power never pick it.
It's great for Gish, just for the ridiculous ability to power attack with a greatsword (and w/magical effects that give more dice).

Prodan
2010-07-28, 01:41 PM
No iteriative attacks.

Theodoxus
2010-07-28, 01:58 PM
Not everyone plays 8th level and up... Iterative attacks are annoying (and I'm thankful removed in 4th) - one of the big big boons of E6 is the limited number of iteratives.

Without iteratives, you can power attack for full, you can choose the monk acf that swaps flurry for a modified power attack, you can square up a melee warrior and a blasty mage much easier...

Actions are grand things, but wildly swinging away at the beasties is not optimal.

Prodan
2010-07-28, 02:02 PM
Without iteratives, you can power attack for full

Was there something that prevented full on power attacking with iteratives?

Person_Man
2010-07-28, 02:15 PM
Meh.

If you're going to learn a new class, learn the Binder instead. It can do virtually everything the Warlock can do, but better.

Prodan
2010-07-28, 02:17 PM
Combine the two for fun and profit...

Theodoxus
2010-07-28, 02:17 PM
Was there something that prevented full on power attacking with iteratives?

Chance of hitting, mostly. Unless all you're facing is low AC opponents. Or maybe you always roll high - idk.

Prodan
2010-07-28, 02:18 PM
Chance of hitting, mostly. Unless all you're facing is low AC opponents. Or maybe you always roll high - idk.

So BAB of +6/+1 PA for 6 = BAB of +0/-5

BAB of +6 (no iteratives) PA for 6 = BAB of +0

How is the latter worse than the former?

Draz74
2010-07-28, 02:21 PM
Iteratives or no iteratives, Power Attack still reduces hit chance (barring Shock Trooper shenanigans); which means that Power Attacking on a Hideous Blow, while thematically appropriate, is actually a particularly bad idea tactically. You're risking missing and therefore wasting not only your usual attack damage, but also your Eldtrich Blast damage. When Eldritch Blast damage is at stake, you really want to aim as accurately as possible.

So Power Attack is not a factor in favor of Hideous Blow not sucking.

Though I agree that Hideous Blow might not be too bad an invocation at very low levels. "Might." Because using it still provokes an Attack of Opportunity by RAW, and passing the Concentration check to cast defensively is far from automatic at these low levels.

EDIT:

So BAB of +6/+1 PA for 6 = BAB of +0/-5

BAB of +6 (no iteratives) PA for 6 = BAB of +0

Fixed that for you.

Prodan
2010-07-28, 02:26 PM
Right, point is I don't see how iteriative attacks are a bad thing. A bit complicated, yes. Bad, not really.

Nero24200
2010-07-28, 02:28 PM
The Warlocks=Broken thing could be coming from groups that start at level 1, when all-day* 3-dimensional mobility is unique and 1d6 (or, heaven forbid, 1d8+1d6+1.5xStr) is enough to drop most enemies. Sure, Incarnum does it better, but I don't think the sorts of groups that balk at the Warlock would exactly embrace the Totemist either.

I see this a fair bit. The main group I play with throws warlocks in the "broken" pile, but it's actually due to experience with the game. Having said that, I think the game was a little unfair, considering the DM wasn't too bright and put just about every foe we encountered in heavy armour with low dex (meaning high AC and low touch AC) and far away enough that we couldn't charge in the first round and with only a small amount of hit points - esseintially allowing the warlock to one-shot foes like crazy. Just a note, this was roughly levels 3-5 (yes, the warlock was still one-shotting CR 5 creatures on 3D6 damage, the DM used nothing from the MM).

I think it didn't help that the warlock is quite unique. Only a handful of casters can go all day - the limiting factor of X spells per day is what keeps spellcasters in line (and can't even do that from the mid-levels onwards) so it's understandable that unlimited spells is going to spark caution.

Magnema
2010-07-28, 02:49 PM
Personally, I think that they're fun. Not having to worry about saving your spells (invocations) for later means you can have more fun roleplaying. I.e. if your wizard had the ability to use prestidigitation at-will instead of 4 times/day, sharing space with detect/read magic and others, then many more people would be willing to use it in roleplaying - because they wouldn't be restricting themselves later.

One of my regular DMs (who DM's 3.0 because those are the books he has, but allows nearly any 3.5 material upon request) bans/gimps them not because their damage is "high" nor because they get their invocations unlimited times per day. Rather, it's that they get Eldritch Blast and invocations and a whole slew of other abilities (Det. Mag. @ will, DR, magic item stuff, fiendish resilience, energy resistance) too.

It's been a while, but I believe the essence of his arguement was: "Compare to the Rogue. EB is like sneak attack (in power). Warlocks and Rogues both get other abilities too. However, Warlocks never get a dead level. Then, Warlocks get Invocations on top of that?

"Alternatively, compare to the bard. EB is like Bardic Music (again, in power.) Invocations are about as powerful as a bard's spells. Then, he gets all of the other abilities too."

I, however, still like them, for power and even moreso for roleplaying.

Edited to add two line breaks between paragraphs.

Prodan
2010-07-28, 02:55 PM
Personally, I think that they're fun. Not having to worry about saving your spells (invocations) for later means you can have more fun roleplaying. I.e. if your wizard had the ability to use prestidigitation at-will instead of 4 times/day, sharing space with detect/read magic and others, then many more people would be willing to use it in roleplaying - because they wouldn't be restricting themselves later.


Plenty of people use Prestidigitation in games.


It's been a while, but I believe the essence of his arguement was: "Compare to the Rogue. EB is like sneak attack (in power). Warlocks and Rogues both get other abilities too. However, Warlocks never get a dead level. Then, Warlocks get Invocations on top of that?

"Alternatively, compare to the bard. EB is like Bardic Music (again, in power.) Invocations are about as powerful as a bard's spells. Then, he gets all of the other abilities too."

It's a rather bizzare line of argument, as I'm sure you've noticed as well. Warlocks never get a dead level, but neither do Monks, and we all know what monks are like...

Warlocks have okish class features. Detect Magic at will can be bought as an item (some sort of goggles iirc), as can most of their other class features and and their invocations "on top of that". I'm not quite as well acquainted with a Bard's spells as I should be, but my impression is that the Bard's music is more powerful than EB while their magic is about as strong as invocations, if not stronger.

Starbuck_II
2010-07-28, 03:00 PM
BTW, if you've modified your blast, can you turn those off. ie: your blast deals fire damage, and you come across a fire elemental. are you screwed? or can you temporarily "turn off" the fire aspect of it?

EDIT: (ninja'd)



that's acolyte of the skin

Every time you blast: you choose to apply essence and blast shapes. Stop applying them if you fight something immune to that type.
Vitriolic blast means no apply when fighting demons (immune to acid).

Draz74
2010-07-28, 03:01 PM
(who DM's 3.0 because those are the books he has, but allows nearly any 3.5 material upon request)

Er ... he does know that's the exact reason the SRD was originally released, right? :smallsigh:

awa
2010-07-28, 04:41 PM
srd is great but when im out playing the game i prefer a book to. Also their are a few aspects of 3.0 i like better then 3.5 so if i owned 3.0 stuff but not 3.5 stuff i might be inclined to use the 3.0 as well.

thompur
2010-07-28, 06:46 PM
Don't forget that the only invocation that can consistantly affect a party member directly is Flee the Scene. More than once I've used it to get a friend out of harms way, or get into a room without using the door.
Otherwise, the Warlock is a comparatively selfish class.

Zaq
2010-07-28, 08:44 PM
Warlocks are great for newbies or casual players who don't want to have to deal with a lot of resource management. Once they're actually sitting at the table, they have very few choices they can make each round, and they don't have to worry about running out. They also get to stay at a nice safe distance most of the time (sure, 60' is within standard charge range, but you're still decidedly In The Back. Moreso with the Spider Climb and/or Flight invocations.), which is again good for newbies.

Overall though, from a more experienced perspective, they're underwhelming. There are very few truly unique and interesting abilities they get (aside, I suppose, from a 2-level Chameleon dip turning them into Artificers without being Artificers), but they've got enough to do that they're not soul-crushingly boring. Honestly, one of the class's biggest strengths is its aptitude for UMD, but you can get some mileage out of that if your GM isn't stingy with the item shops.

Oh, and they also make fantastic dips for a lot of classes, especially rogues. Especially with the pseudo-HiPS trick using that feat from Drow of the Underdark (I don't recall the name... Blend into Shadows, I think?).

Rainbownaga
2010-07-28, 09:46 PM
In my group they got a bit of a reputation as overpowered as a result of the summon swarm power. At lower levels a d6 automatic damage area attack with a bonus rider effect (poison or bleeding) is pretty powerful, particularly when you spam it.

If you pick the summon swarm ability, there is generally no reason to use your blasts at all (unless for some reason the swarm refuses to attack the enemy you chose, in which case it'll likely backfire and cause a heap of grief).

That said, I play a severely unoptimised game (players don't like playing wizards or sorcerers because they're underpowered).

Prodan
2010-07-28, 09:52 PM
That said, I play a severely unoptimised game (players don't like playing wizards or sorcerers because they're underpowered).

Fighters get FULL BAB! and D10 HIT DICE! What do wizards get? HALF BAB PROGRESSION and a PUNY D4 FOR HITPOINTS! Oh and a HANDFUL OF SPELLS on top of that, but what good will that ever do them?

balistafreak
2010-07-28, 10:00 PM
Fighters get FULL BAB! and D10 HIT DICE! What do wizards get? HALF BAB PROGRESSION and a PUNY D4 FOR HITPOINTS! Oh and a HANDFUL OF SPELLS on top of that, but what good will that ever do them?

He said it was an unoptimized game for a reason. :smallbiggrin:

Prodan
2010-07-28, 10:09 PM
What part of that post made you think I was being sarcastic?

Xefas
2010-07-28, 10:45 PM
In my group they got a bit of a reputation as overpowered as a result of the summon swarm power. At lower levels a d6 automatic damage area attack with a bonus rider effect (poison or bleeding) is pretty powerful, particularly when you spam it.

Not sure what you mean by "spam", but as far as I know, Summon Swarm has a duration of "concentration", which means it can't be spammed, right? :smallconfused:

Adrayll
2010-07-28, 10:46 PM
Alright, so what are some good dips for warlocks, and why? Also, the fact that they have few options might work for me, as i also need to divert some of my brainpower/time at the table to helping some of our fairly new players.

awa
2010-07-28, 10:49 PM
yes it dose have a duration of concentration but depending on you interpretation of how quickly you can use it at low levels it's basically an area of affect elderich blast that never misses and has an additional affect not a bad bargain.

Xefas
2010-07-28, 10:50 PM
Alright, so what are some good dips for warlocks, and why? Also, the fact that they have few options might work for me, as i also need to divert some of my brainpower/time at the table to helping some of our fairly new players.

Two usual multiclass Warlock builds I see start with Warlock 11/Chameleon 2 and Warlock X/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock Y

(Where X is the minimum number of levels required for Hellfire Warlock and Y is the maximum number of Hellfire Warlock levels you can take. I forget those numbers.)

The first uses Chameleon to gain access to all the craft feats you need and uses the Warlock's Use Magic Device abilities to craft most items in the game. On non-craft days, you can use the floating feat on the Complete Arcane feat that gives you a bonus invocation, which you can change each day.

The second is a pure damage blaster that uses a Binder vestige to instantly heal Constitution damage taken from Hellfire Warlock.


yes it dose have a duration of concentration but depending on you interpretation of how quickly you can use it at low levels it's basically an area of affect elderich blast that never misses and has an additional affect not a bad bargain.

True, true. But in my experience, even a plain Greatsword Power Attack Fighter isn't going to be overshadowed by that in most cases, or at least not to the degree to cause complaining. It's good, but not *too* good. Your mileage may vary. And after a few levels, you have better things to do.

balistafreak
2010-07-28, 10:51 PM
What part of that post made you think I was being sarcastic?

The Powerthirst-esque method of speech? :smalltongue:

Geez, can't ever play the straight man anymore without getting called out on it...

EvilJoe15
2010-07-28, 10:52 PM
Don't forget Legacy Champion, and Bloodlines.

Those are what makes Warlocks truly shine.

mobdrazhar
2010-07-28, 10:54 PM
(Where X is the minimum number of levels required for Hellfire Warlock and Y is the maximum number of Hellfire Warlock levels you can take. I forget those numbers.)

it's 3 lvl's of Hellfire Warlock but can't remember off the top of my head the minimum lvl of Warlock required for it

Prodan
2010-07-28, 10:57 PM
Level 9 due to skill requirements.

EvilJoe15
2010-07-28, 10:59 PM
You can enter Hellfire Warlock at level 10, so I'm thinking 5?

Warlock 5 / Mindbender 1 / Binder 1 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Legacy Champion 10

Something looks off there... I know, I messed up trying to fit all ten levels of LC into it.

It's more like this: Warlock 5 / Mindbender 1 / Binder 1 / Arcane PrC 2 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Legacy Champion 6

Adrayll
2010-07-28, 11:00 PM
Don't forget Legacy Champion, and Bloodlines.

Those are what makes Warlocks truly shine.

What are these? Also, is it worth 4 LA to be a pixie? Or what other races work?

EDIT:


Warlock 5 / Mindbender 1 / Binder 1 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Legacy Champion 10

Why?

Xefas
2010-07-28, 11:07 PM
What are these? Also, is it worth 4 LA to be a pixie? Or what other races work?

I think the real question is "Is it worth being a pixie". Heh :smallwink: . Flying and permanent invisibility does free up two Invocations slots you'd otherwise be spending on flying and permanent invisibility. Really, it's a pretty niche build, and, in my opinion, not noticeably better or worse than straight human warlock/whatever in most games.

EvilJoe15
2010-07-28, 11:09 PM
Because LC advances Hellfire at every level except 1 and 7.
Bloodlines(From UA) advance it at each level as well.

Thou Shall Not Sacrifice Caster Levels!
No, any LA would F this build up.

tyckspoon
2010-07-28, 11:10 PM
What are these? Also, is it worth 4 LA to be a pixie? Or what other races work?


Legacy Champion is a PrC which has the notable property of its main class feature being the ability to advance any other class's feature, so you would essentially get another 5 or so levels worth of Hellfire Warlock's +2d6/level Eldritch Blast damage. Bloodline levels work similarly; they don't have many benefits of their own, but they count toward the progression of another class you have.

Edit: For the rest of the build:
Mindbender is just generally useful arcane PrC filler for when you don't yet want to go into your main class/es. It also gives you telepathy, which qualifies you for the Mindsight feat, which is one of the most broadly useful modes of detection.

Binder is for Naberius, who gives what is basically Fast Healing 1 for Ability Damage, which lets you use Hellfire Warlock without worrying about the Con damage (it might be helpful to rig you Con score to an odd value so you aren't constantly gaining and losing HP.)

Starbuck_II
2010-07-28, 11:15 PM
Not sure what you mean by "spam", but as far as I know, Summon Swarm has a duration of "concentration", which means it can't be spammed, right? :smallconfused:

You can spam by doing it every rd.

Duration Concentration means ends if you don't concentrate: free action drop then.
Meaning you can summon anothrer next rd. Every rd you are shooting out swarms that harm enemy.

Very party friendly tactic as swarms will attack allies if you don't drop them.

Prodan
2010-07-28, 11:24 PM
Legacy Champion is a PrC which has the notable property of its main class feature being the ability to advance any other class's feature, so you would essentially get another 5 or so levels worth of Hellfire Warlock's +2d6/level Eldritch Blast damage.
It also progresses the part where Hellfire Warlock advances the Warlock's regular EB...

Adrayll
2010-07-29, 12:04 AM
It's more like this: Warlock 5 / Mindbender 1 / Binder 1 / Arcane PrC 2 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Legacy Champion 6

In that order?

Zaq
2010-07-29, 12:58 AM
No, I'm pretty sure you take the first level of Legacy Champion (which, if memory serves, doesn't advance existing features) before you take HFW, but I might be wrong.

Tokiko Mima
2010-07-29, 05:34 AM
What are these? Also, is it worth 4 LA to be a pixie? Or what other races work?

Yes, it is. Pixies have greater invisibility at will as a free action, and 60' native flight with good maneuverability. These are slightly better versions of invocations warlocks get much later, and you get them for free as part of your race. Also, you get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, meaning any Eldritch Glaive attacks you make can be based off of Dexterity, which as a Pixie you have a +8 bonus to. And as if that wasn't enough, you also get a +6 to Cha... the only stat downside is Str, which you'll never need except for encumbrance.

Oh, and you're a small, not a tiny race, so you still threaten within 5', but get an additional bonus to hit and avoid attacks. The damage penalty that would ordinarily occur doesn't matter since it doesn't affect eldritch blast damage.

In addition, you come loaded with a suite of 1/day SLA tricks you can use as a sort of grab bag of tools. Permanent image alone can be worth it's weight in gold.

Not to mention that you have a rather substantial DR of 10/cold iron, and SR of 15 + class level, making it tough to consistently penetrate your defenses.

It's not for every warlock, but Pixie + Warlock is one combination you'll never feel bad about.

Tyrmatt
2010-07-29, 08:44 AM
Since warlocktimisation is being discussed, just a thought occurs. Are there any warlock PrCs which grant sneak attack (and progression of) with EB?

EvilJoe15
2010-07-29, 08:55 AM
Arcane Trickster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm)

Calemyr
2010-07-29, 09:55 AM
My one opportunity at using a warlock was kinda broken, since the DM had pit us against a hive of giant ants at very low levels. High armor, low dex, warlock rocked. So he ended the adventure by pitting us against a fiendish ant queen with enough spell resistance to neuter him. Then it critically failed an attack roll and the effect roll (we were using a table of critical effects) made it bite itself in half on accident. It's always fun to hear the DM say "*Sigh* I really don't know HOW this works out, but..."

I'm curious if anyone has done any refluffs of the class, because as much as I like the warlock (it's the most balanced caster class in the game, in my book), I'm not really that fond of the name or the description of the class. One approach I'd like to try if I get the chance is to recast the class as a less power-gamey artificer, portraying the invocations as custom weapons and gadgets rather actual spells.

EvilJoe15
2010-07-29, 09:58 AM
Ahh... That would be the Ironman type.

Interesting note: Tony Stark is an Artificer, but Ironman is a warlock.

Adrayll
2010-07-29, 12:46 PM
Aside from pixie, because i'm a little leery about the +4 LA, what are some good races for warlocks that are +1 LA or less?

tyckspoon
2010-07-29, 12:50 PM
Aside from pixie, because i'm a little leery about the +4 LA, what are some good races for warlocks that are +1 LA or less?

Human, (Strongheart) Halfling, Dwarf.. all the usual suspects, really. Warlock class abilities are self-contained enough that you can go with pretty much any racial selection you want and not worry too much about how it interacts with the class.

Furnok
2010-07-29, 01:31 PM
Aside from pixie, because i'm a little leery about the +4 LA, what are some good races for warlocks that are +1 LA or less?

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Allurin_(3.5e_Race)

I talked my DM into the +0 version with some changes my DM took out the Delicious Kiss and electricty resistance. I play her as CG but my DM plays up the cold iron susceptibility (Its funny all the good guys we run arcoss have cold iron weapons) and the evil taint, several times while in towns she as all but been ran out of town till the palidin and cleric of our group sticks up for her.

Prime32
2010-07-29, 01:34 PM
Petals are pretty good. Tiny size, good stats, flight, and DR/cold iron (which stacks with the warlock's DR) for +2 LA.

dextercorvia
2010-07-29, 01:54 PM
Since warlocktimisation is being discussed, just a thought occurs. Are there any warlock PrCs which grant sneak attack (and progression of) with EB?


Arcane Trickster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm)

Unseen Seer also works with a subset of the tricks that get you into AT.

Starbuck_II
2010-07-29, 02:05 PM
Petals are pretty good. Tiny size, good stats, flight, and DR/cold iron (which stacks with the warlock's DR) for +2 LA.

But petals can't be used by a PC only a Cohort. the LA for PCs is --. The LA for Cohorts is +2.

You need +0 or higher to play a race.

Tar Palantir
2010-07-29, 04:08 PM
Whisper Gnome is nice, with small size, silence, and the bonuses to go stealthy even without invis.

mobdrazhar
2010-07-29, 04:59 PM
Hellbred are good for warlocks

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-07-29, 08:09 PM
Unfortunately, Warlocks cannot cast x level spells, and thus cannot, without cheesy tricks, qualify for either Arcane Trickster or Unseen Seer. He specifically could not get into USS because he doesn't have nearly enough Divination effects.

To get into AT, you have to dip into a PrC called Nosmiac Chiurgeon, which lets you trade in SLA's for Inflict X Wounds spells, which are an x level spell you can then cast, and lets you qualify for that requirement

So the build would look like this:

Rogue3/Warlock6/NC1/AT10

Bosh
2010-07-29, 10:12 PM
I think it's that in some situations a warlock's powers are an "I WIN" button. If you can fly and shoot eldritch blasts without limit, you can kill anything that can't fly and has no ranged attack. And you can do it all day. So it's not that warlocks are overpowered against all enemies. Just ones with few ways of responding to magical opponents. Even though invocations are not on the whole that powerful, some opponents don't have a way to respond. Which just means the DM has to pick enemies more carefully.


Right that's exactly the sort of thing that makes people ban warlocks. However, what people miss is that D&D combat isn't one on one so being able to plink someone from out of their reach doesn't do much good if they just decide smash your friends instead.

dextercorvia
2010-07-29, 10:37 PM
Unfortunately, Warlocks cannot cast x level spells, and thus cannot, without cheesy tricks, qualify for either Arcane Trickster or Unseen Seer. He specifically could not get into USS because he doesn't have nearly enough Divination effects.

To get into AT, you have to dip into a PrC called Nosmiac Chiurgeon, which lets you trade in SLA's for Inflict X Wounds spells, which are an x level spell you can then cast, and lets you qualify for that requirement

So the build would look like this:

Rogue3/Warlock6/NC1/AT10


Actually I believe Human Rogue3/Warlock1/AT10/UnseenSeer6 works. You need Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice, and Sanctum Spell, but you get 9d6 sneak attack on top of 8d6 EB.

If you want to really get fancy, the Unseen Seer levels aren't granting you that much, so you have room for

Human Rogue1/SAFighter1/Binder1/Warlock1/AT5/HellfireWarlock3/UncannyTrickster3/AT+5 for 17d6 EB + 7d6 SA.

FuryOfMetal
2010-07-30, 12:25 PM
Ahh... That would be the Ironman type.

Interesting note: Tony Stark is an Artificer, but Ironman is a warlock.

I'm actually playing a warforged warlock and in the thread i made discussing my character options it was mentioned that I'm completely Iron Man! fly/will! EB is like lasers! Made of metal! And you can make stuff ala Tony Stark via Imbue Item.

Theodoxus
2010-07-30, 03:06 PM
So... warforged Artificer//Warlock with alter self = Ironman for reals? (or does alter self not let a warforged look human?)

EvilJoe15
2010-07-30, 03:20 PM
No it doesn't, but you just need Disguise Self for that.