PDA

View Full Version : Nine Swords Mega-Multiclass: Cool Concept, but is it playable?



Talbot
2010-07-28, 04:53 AM
So, having been messing around with Tomb of Battle trying to build a "Swash-Sage" (there's a thread about it elsewhere), I came up with kind of a cool build idea, but I'm not sure it would be particularly playable.

Basically, the idea is a martial adept who travels the world, training to master not just the maneuvers of each class, but their spirit and philosophy too, and taking class levels to reflect that. So, for instance, while studying Tiger Claw he might take a level of Ranger (probably the Wildshape Variant), or Barbarian. For Shadow Hand he takes a level of Rogue, for Devoted Spirit a level of Paladin, for Diamond Mind some Psychic Warrior, etc.

I see the build shaking out roughly as follows:

2 Levels each of Swordsage/Crusader/Warblade
1 Level "Shadow Hand" (probably Rogue, maybe Shadow Sun Ninja or Assassin)
1 Level "Devoted Spirit" (probably Paladin, maybe Cleric or Favored Soul)
1 Level "Tiger Claw" (probably Ranger, maybe Barbarian or Bloodclaw Master)
1 Level "White Raven" (probably Marshal, maybe Bard or Artificer)
1 Level "Diamond Mind" (probably Psychic Warrior, maybe Factotum or Ardent)
1 Level of "Setting Sun" (probably Monk, maybe Psion or Dungeoncrasher Fighter)
1 Level of "Iron Heart" (probably Fighter, maybe Samurai or Bloodstorm Blade)
1 Level of "Stone Dragon" (probably Knight, maybe Barbarian or Deepstone Sentinel)
1 Level of "Desert Wind" (probably Dragonfire Adept , maybe Duskblade or Pyrokineticist)
5 Levels of Master of Nine

Total Maneuvers Known: 24, assuming no Martial prestiges besides Mo9
Total Stances Known: 7, assuming no Martial prestiges besides Mo9
Initiatior Level: 13 as Warblade, Crusader, and Swordsage, although you'd only get two level 7 maneuvers, and only at level 20.

Initial Thoughts: Probably you'd want to use the Unarmed Swordsage variant as it gives you ostensibly a free feat needed for Mo9 without losing anything since you still get all your proficiencies from Warblade and Crusader. Your BAB will be terrible unless you go fractional, although your saves should be ok either way. Although you get enough maneuvers known, you probably won't know very many high-level maneuvers from each school because of pre-reqs (although taking Martial Study three times gives you exactly enough maneuvers to have three for each school, and two Martial Stances means you've got one stance per school too, which would fit the class... but that and Mo9 would pretty much eat up all of your feats). You're likely going to have some pretty awful MAD.

Questions for the Playground:

1) Is there a way to make a build like this (not necessarily this exact build, but a build with nine one-level dips thematically relating to each school) playable? Even optimized?
2) Any better suggestions for which classes would fit which schools? I went with all base classes for the primary examples above, but I'm sure you could do it with all prestiges as well.
3) Anything else to contribute? Comments? Questions? Curse Words?

JaronK
2010-07-28, 05:04 AM
Consider making use of Bloodlines. Remember, if you have a Major Bloodline your effective level in all classes for abilities based solely on class level goes up by 3. This means a one level dip into Fighter (for example) increases your initiator level by 2, since 4 levels of fighter would give +2 initiator level.

Thus, a Crusader 1/Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Fighter 1/UA Samurai 1/Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 1/Monk 1/Ranger 1/Duskblade 1/Binder 1/Factotum 1 would have an initiator level of 26 in all three initiator classes if he had a Major Bloodline. That could make this a LOT more playable.

JaronK

Talbot
2010-07-28, 05:22 AM
Consider making use of Bloodlines. Remember, if you have a Major Bloodline your effective level in all classes for abilities based solely on class level goes up by 3. This means a one level dip into Fighter (for example) increases your initiator level by 2, since 4 levels of fighter would give +2 initiator level.

Thus, a Crusader 1/Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Fighter 1/UA Samurai 1/Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 1/Monk 1/Ranger 1/Duskblade 1/Binder 1/Factotum 1 would have an initiator level of 26 in all three initiator classes if he had a Major Bloodline. That could make this a LOT more playable.

JaronK

So would that mean I'd get four class levels worth of class features for each of the 12 (13, with Mo9) classes? That seems a bit overpowered, even if it does cost me 20-30 skill points, a few hit dice, and some saves.

JaronK
2010-07-28, 05:34 AM
No, not quite. It only works for abilities based solely on class levels. For example, caster level is based on class level (it's equal to that) so it goes up... but spells per day (which has its own table) does not. Sneak attack does not (again, a table progression) but Hellfire Warlock progression does (because the ability says it's 2d6 damage per class level).

Since initiator level is just half your class level in non initiator classes, 1 level gives 2 initiator levels with a major bloodline.

But you wouldn't get 3 Fighter Bonus feats from 1 level of Fighter.

JaronK

Prime32
2010-07-28, 05:38 AM
This would work better in gestalt. Put a master of nine build on one side (maybe a homebrew class which gets access to all schools) and your dips on the other.

Talbot
2010-07-28, 05:44 AM
So I'd pick up IL but not Maneuvers/Stances known? Interesting...

That'd open up a lot more options for maneuver selections, including at least one level 9... On the other hand, the character's saves/HD/skills would all suffer pretty dramatically, and I'm not sure how many DMs would let this slide.

Any suggestions to make it playable without provoking DM eyebrow raising? Maybe tailoring the dip classes to minimize SAD, maybe focusing on Dex/Wis/Con (Dex/Int/Con if you can get your DM to approve Kung Fu Genius for an Unarmed Swordsage) with a Swashbuckler dip (Iron Heart? Tiger Claw?) for the free Weapon Finesse? Committing to exclusively full BAB dips so you clock in at 17? All of the above?

Runestar
2010-07-28, 07:33 AM
Best I can think of is a warblade3/crusader1/swordsage1/shadow sun ninja10/master of nine5 combination. :smalltongue:

Talbot
2010-07-29, 06:51 PM
Best I can think of is a warblade3/crusader1/swordsage1/shadow sun ninja10/master of nine5 combination. :smalltongue:

Funny.

But seriously, I really like the concept and would like to play the character, any suggestions that are less likely to be DM torpedoed than Bloodlines? There's probably a way to minimize MAD with careful class selection, I'm just not as well versed in what classes work well as one level dips/which classes have what MAD as the rest of the playground...

Alternatively, You could maybe do a build that was Crusader/Warblade/Swordsage 1, two levels each of the "School" classes, and capped with the first level of Mo9, but that may be even less optimal and gets you way fewer maneuvers.

Come on Playground, think of it as a challenge; let's see if we can make this concept work.

Zovc
2010-07-29, 07:22 PM
I doubt it helps, as it'll loose Initiator Levels, and has only 2/3 progression, but one of the tricksters in the Complete Scoundrel improves class features from another class.

Then again, why not just take levels in that class...?

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-29, 07:41 PM
One idea would be to take Master of Nine as soon as posible, then to take as many classes that extend it's class features as much as posible. Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster can pull Master of Nine manuver known and readied into a 15 class level long progression. That is something like 23 known and 15 readied on top of whatever you get from warblade.

I would go with straight warblade into master of nine, then Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster. You could have all nine final strikes very easily.

Talbot
2010-07-29, 07:50 PM
One idea would be to take Master of Nine as soon as posible, then to take as many classes that extend it's class features as much as posible. Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster can pull Master of Nine manuver known and readied into a 15 class level long progression. That is something like 23 known and 15 readied on top of whatever you get from warblade.

I would go with straight warblade into master of nine, then Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster. You could have all nine final strikes very easily.


The goal isn't to get all nine strikes, it's to take 1 level of a thematically appropriately class for each of the nine schools. I don't really care which if any level nine strikes.

Morph Bark
2010-07-30, 04:30 AM
The goal isn't to get all nine strikes, it's to take 1 level of a thematically appropriately class for each of the nine schools. I don't really care which if any level nine strikes.

If you get to initiator level 17 and then get a maneuver, the Stone Dragon 9 is basically free anyway.

Talbot
2010-07-30, 12:18 PM
If you get to initiator level 17 and then get a maneuver, the Stone Dragon 9 is basically free anyway.

Right, but this build only gets to IL 13, and isn't concerned with level 9s anyways. All I want is a way to play a guy who takes one-level thematically appropriate dips for each school without him being totally useless.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-30, 12:38 PM
Answer:

Yes it's possible. You won't be totally useless, you'll just be weaker than a strait warblade. You'll have a grab bag of interesting abilities and be able to initiate some high level maneuvers. You'll need great stats though.