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prufock
2010-07-28, 09:03 AM
I have rolled up a grappling character for an upcoming campaign. The specs:

Half-Ogre Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1/Monk 3 = ECL 6
Str 24, Improved Grapple feat, total grapple check +18. Rage gives another +2, and I have a custom Ring of Enlargement, and Brawler's Gloves (re-slotted to a belt) for a total max grapple bonus of +27. I'm satisfied with this number.

However, as we all know, there's that spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) that makes a grapple-focused character all but useless. At ECL 6, of course, it could be a couple of levels before we're up against enemies that have this option readily available, and a ring is prohibitively expensive, but this is planned to be a somewhat long-term campaign, making it a future possibility. Besides, you never know what the DM will put you up against (I don't expect every enemy to have FoM, but it wouldn't be out of the question for some of them to have the option). So I've been thinking about ways to counter Freedom of Movement.

There is the big gun: Antimagic Field. Of course, that also would hurt US, and we don't have access to it at this level.
There's also the option of Celerity + Dispel Magic, or a readied Dispel or Counterspell.
Either of those options really requires a caster prepared for this contingency, though, and there are probably better uses of their slots.

So I look to the Playground. How many suggestions can we compile of ways to counter Freedom of Movement? I'd appreciate it if we could at least get a few of those suggestions available around level 6-8, but everything is open.

I have other tactics available to me (ranseur-guisarme for disarm-trip, regular attacks, stunning), but my core concept is a grappler. Also, we're not hardcore optimizers, so don't worry about that (though if you have suggestions on tweaks I don't mind).

Thanks in advance.

Flickerdart
2010-07-28, 09:18 AM
You could try and Sleight of Hand the ring off their finger. It's only a DC20 check, DC40 to do as a free action. Alternately, chop off their arm.

It's a bit harder to take down enemies that aren't using rings.

Xuc Xac
2010-07-28, 09:20 AM
Get a wizard to make you a Ring of Tyranny of Movement to counter any foes with Freedom of Movement.

Dragosai
2010-07-28, 09:47 AM
I say use your strength against them. What I mean is since your character is already very strong, and has started down the road of grapple feats, even without any magic on your side you are badass at the grapple game. Sure maybe not against a giant or things of that size/nature but against your standard humaniod medium or even large creature you can still be effective. So go all anti-magic up in their grill. Having said that I am not sure what level an anti-magic rod or having a PC in the party cast such a spell would be, but since freedom of movement is a pricey ring I would think you would be able to get a rod.
In combat rush the casters grab them and they are dead, (baring help from allies) nothing they can do but hope to roll a twenty when you roll a 1.

Person_Man
2010-07-28, 09:50 AM
Play a Totemist or Psychic Warrior Grapple build instead. You can get similarly high Str mods and pounce, but you also have other class abilities. So when someone has Freeedom of Movement, you just use another tactic.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-28, 09:51 AM
You could try and Sleight of Hand the ring off their finger. It's only a DC20 check, DC40 to do as a free action.
It's a bit more complex than that. First you have to see the ring. As a Fine object that's DC 20 to Spot if you first have line of sight to it within 10'. (Impose a -1 penalty to your roll for each additional 10'.) And if you fail that initial Spot check, you'll probably never see the ring unless you're really working at it, using up move actions to make retries.
Action: Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

Try Again: Yes. You can try to spot something that you failed to see previously at no penalty.

Alternately, chop off their arm.
D&D doesn't have hit locations, so there are no called shots. You can't chop off their arm until they're dead (an object rather than a creature).

Lysander
2010-07-28, 09:58 AM
How about attacking their mind so they don't want to escape the grapple? Cast Suggestion: "[ENEMY WITH FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT] is obviously a better wrestler! Why did you tackle him?"

jiriku
2010-07-28, 09:59 AM
Dispel magic is actually not a bad idea. Anyone who is buffed with freedom of movement via a spell is probably buffed with other spells as well, so dispelling is likely to eliminate more than just their FoM.

Frankly, however, being good only in a grapple makes you kind of a one-trick pony, and freedom of movement isn't your only bogeyman, or even your biggest. For example, what will you do against incorporeal undead, or swarms, or flying archers? How will you confront fire elementals or black puddings or other creatures that are damaging to the touch? What's your strategy against creatures that can easily teleport out of a grapple, such as most devils and demons, or any enemy with a few levels of swordsage or shadow dancer?

The best way to confront these foes is to have a viable plan B, and for that you'll need more versatility, more options. If you're attached to those monk levels, consider the variant monk class in my sig; it will help a little. If you're not attached, consider dumping those monk levels for other classes, such as the totemist or psychic warrior that Person_Man suggested, or swordsage levels (a swordsage with the right maneuvers is proficient at both grappling and throwing his foes, and can do many other things besides).

If you like your build as it is, it might be useful to look through the Magic Item Compendium and see if you can find any gear that's useful against these types of foes and catches your fancy.

prufock
2010-07-28, 01:08 PM
Thanks for the input, folks!

@Flickerdart: Sleight of Hand is an interesting idea. However, low dex and no ranks makes it difficult for this character.
@Curmudgeon: Spotting the ring, though, wouldn't be as much of a problem, since his wisdom score is decent and I have a few ranks. But you're right, that does make it a two-step process instead of one.

@Xuc Xac: Tyranny of Movement would be a good investment, if I find a lot of enemies are prepared with FoM. Must be a custom item, and would probably cost the same as FoM.

@Dragosai: That's the basic plan. He's got the speed and the power, the idea is to rush and disable or interrupt casters.

@Person Man: I knew someone would suggest PsyWar. That was my initial plan, alas the DM put the kibosh on it with no psionics in his setting. No Incarnum either.

@jiriku: Regarding Dispel, good point. It's a good all-round tactic.

Regarding the other issues, they're the same issues encountered by pretty much any melee class. Melee (and even ranged) relies on physical attacks. That kind of versatility is more available to casters. I can make up some of the difference with items, of course, which ideal. It's more about relying on my other party members.

Incorporeal - First, let the cleric try to Turn them. Otherwise, Ghostblight or Ghost Touch Weapon oil will do the trick. If the campaign takes a turn toward undead-centred, I'll invest in a Ghost Touch weapon.

Swarm - No current plan, apart from "light something on fire" and "let the casters deal with it." History has shown swarms to be a rare event in our games, so I don't expect it to come up, but I'll probably grab some Alchemist's Fire or something, just in case.

Flying archers - This is a more common issue. There is old faithful - ranged weapons - but he's decidedly poor at that (+3 total attack bonus!). It would behoove me to have some way to fly. Of course, keep in mind that there are other members of the party. Definite weakness. I'll have to put some thought into it.

Elemental - Guisarme. Or Resist/Protection From Fire and just grapple it. I seem to be relying a lot on potions, huh?

Black Pudding - Uh, bludgeon it with big rocks? Resist Acid and grapple. More potions.

Teleporters - Meh. If they can teleport away from a grapple, they can teleport away from any tactic short of magic to inhibit their teleporting. When it comes to magic vs mundane, magic is going to win.

You're right, these are all pretty contingent on items. I'll have to give it some thought. As I said to Person_Man, though, no psionics or Incarnum, unfortunately.

Person_Man
2010-07-28, 01:31 PM
As I said to Person_Man, though, no psionics or Incarnum, unfortunately.

That's annoying.

Other options (assuming you don't want to obvious CoDzilla):

Warblade and/or Swordsage: Maneuvers and stances give you a variety of Grapple related options.
Binder: Zagon vestige grants Improved Grapple, Scent, Constrict, Snake Bane, and Aversion. You also count as Large for the purpose of your opposed Grapple checks. (This is hilarious and awesome for small, tiny, or fine sized Binders). Aversion basically Antipathy (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Antipathy), except it also forces your enemy to move away from snakes (which you can create yourself with Haures or Zceryll vestiges, or you can play a "scaley-kind" race, as detailed in Serpent Kingdoms). Put them together, and you have an easy time locking down one enemy while forcing another away from you. Only down side is that this particular vestige doesn't kick in until level 10. But there are plenty of other things for you to do in the mean time.
Marshal 1: Cha to Str checks.
Factotum 3: Int to Str checks. Also gets limited spells and UMD for access to Alter Self or Polymorph (either is vastly superior to Enlarge Person).
Wildshape Ranger: The much weaker cousin of the Druid. His Wildshape can be vastly improved with feats.
Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1): Ability Focus, Rage, spells.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-28, 02:04 PM
That's annoying.

Other options (assuming you don't want to obvious CoDzilla):


Binder: Zagon vestige grants Improved Grapple, Scent, Constrict, Snake Bane, and Aversion. You also count as Large for the purpose of your opposed Grapple checks.
Marshal 1: Cha to Str checks.



Urge to build Cha-SAD grappler... rising... must resist... not talk... in fragments...

Person_Man
2010-07-28, 02:43 PM
Urge to build Cha-SAD grappler... rising... must resist... not talk... in fragments...

Oh, that's an easy one. Just take a trip over to the X to Y thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732). Slippers of Battledancing, Snowflake Wardance (requires Bardic music), or a wand of Thunder Lance adds or replaces your Cha bonus To-Hit (as does any Smite ability, albeit for 1 attack). Marshal 1 gets Cha to Str checks. A wide variety of magics and psionics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127732) or the above described Zagon vestige for size. Maybe mix in some Incarnum for the fun of it - Girillion Arms adds 2 + (2 * essentia) Competence bonus to Grapple and Climb checks, and Mauling Gauntlets soulmelds adds 2 + (2 * essentia) Morale bonus to Strength checks. A Totemist 2/Incarnate 3/Anything can rocking out a +18 bonus to Grapple checks, before calculating Str or size or magic item bonuses.

Ernir
2010-07-28, 03:34 PM
Are you counting grapple checks as strength checks? Grapple checks are never said to be that in the rules, as far as I can tell. They are more like attack rolls. :smallconfused:

Otherwise, what is the Marshal doing for the Charismagrappler?

Person_Man
2010-07-28, 04:26 PM
Are you counting grapple checks as strength checks? Grapple checks are never said to be that in the rules, as far as I can tell. They are more like attack rolls. :smallconfused:

Yes, I am.

I fully concede that by RAW you are correct, and that a Grapple check isn't explicitly a Strength check. But I think it's splitting hairs. I think it's basically just a result of poor editing on the part of the authors that Trip, Grapple, Overrun, etc, use slightly differently worded mechanics, and that all of them should receive the bonuses of anything that adds to your Str check.

Similarly, now that Pathfinder uses the streamlined "Combat Maneuver" calculation for all of it's special attacks (Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier), all of the 3.X material that adds Strength bonuses is by RAW useless for Pathfinder. But me and my group choose to ignore that as well.

W3bDragon
2010-07-28, 04:31 PM
Three levels of Binder + Improved Binding will give you access to Karsus, which grants you a Dispelling Touch ability.

In fact, if you could rebuild the whole character around a Binder base, then a lot of your problems will go away.

Karsus for Dispelling Touch
Geryon for Swift Flight
Chupolops for Ghost Touch

Of course as PersonMan said, Zagon gives you imp. grapple as well.

Keld Denar
2010-07-28, 04:33 PM
There is also the Minor Aura: Art of War. It gives you +Cha on all special manevuers such as Bullrush, Trip, or Grapple, IIRC. If you were able to have 2 minor auras up, you could have Art of War and Motivate Str up simultaneously.

Thunderlance counts as a 1handed weapon, right? If you had Imp Unarmed Strike + Imp Grapple + Scorpion's Grasp, you could whack them with the Thunderlance from 15' away and pull them into your square. GET OVER HERE! FINISH HIM!

Flickerdart
2010-07-28, 04:53 PM
D&D doesn't have hit locations, so there are no called shots. You can't chop off their arm until they're dead (an object rather than a creature).
You are sundering their unarmed strike. :smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon
2010-07-28, 06:40 PM
You are sundering their unarmed strike. :smallbiggrin:
Which can be made with any part of the body, including head butts.

Sorry, that's just not going to work. :smallfrown:

Escheton
2010-07-28, 06:47 PM
Right, lotta ways to deal with the actual spell.

How about the traveldomain granted ability?

ericgrau
2010-07-28, 06:48 PM
The simplest solution is to grapple something else. And if every enemy has freedom of movement, area dispel ftw. Don't forget you roll the check against each target separately, so at least one of them is bound to fail.

And I assume at least one of your allies has sneak attack or power attack or likes to full attack or otherwise a way to benefit from the easier chance to hit in melee? Or you have good grapple damage yourself? (more monk levels?) Otherwise you lose as much as you gain from a grapple.

At 40k the ring is fairly moot for as long as your campaign will last IMO. Even at high levels it's expensive for PCs, and if every monster has one you'll be swimming in loot even at level 20. Ya, not gonna happen.

Evard
2010-07-28, 06:49 PM
Which can be made with any part of the body, including head butts.

Sorry, that's just not going to work. :smallfrown:


As Mills Lane once said "I'll allow it" :D

Keld Denar
2010-07-28, 06:50 PM
Travel Domain only works against MAGICAL things that impede your movement. It wouldn't allow you to move freely underwater, nor would it allow you to get out of a grapple (unless said grapple was performed by an EBT or Bigby's Groping Hand spell).

Flickerdart
2010-07-28, 06:50 PM
Which can be made with any part of the body, including head butts.

Sorry, that's just not going to work. :smallfrown:
No, that's just the monk's unarmed strike, specified as an exception.

aivanther
2010-07-28, 06:51 PM
Which can be made with any part of the body, including head butts.

You know, if you sundered his head, you really have a moot point...

Darrin
2010-07-28, 06:53 PM
So I look to the Playground. How many suggestions can we compile of ways to counter Freedom of Movement? I'd appreciate it if we could at least get a few of those suggestions available around level 6-8, but everything is open.


I was working on a Spellthief Ubergrappler because I thought I'd found a trump card against Freedom of Movement, but after some investigation I don't think it works by RAW. The basic idea was a two-level dip into Spellthief gives you Steal Spell Effect, which is great and all if you can stay ahead of the target's caster level... shyeah, well, good luck there. Straight Spellthief 20 makes a very, very poor grappler.

I thought I'd found the perfect anti-FoM combo with the Master Spellthief feat, which at least would allow a multiclass Gish to keep pace with the target's caster level, but a close reading of RAW reveals that this feat only affects your caster level when you steal *spells*, not *spell effects*. Which stinks, but you may be able to get your DM to handwave it.

So... long story short, Spellthief's steal spell effect is probably a dead-end unless you can get your DM to add a houserule to the Master Spellthief feat.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-28, 10:23 PM
No, that's just the monk's unarmed strike, specified as an exception.
No, it's not.
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following: That's from the Player's Handbook Combat chapter, on page 139. It's for all unarmed strikes, with no mention of Monk class abilities whatsoever.

balistafreak
2010-07-28, 10:27 PM
You know, if you sundered his head, you really have a moot point...

Something is only successfully sundered once all of its hitpoints are gone, though. You don't sunder the blade from a sword, you just sunder the sword.

So no "I sunder off his head" shenanigans.

/tongueincheek

aivanther
2010-07-28, 10:29 PM
Something is only successfully sundered once all of its hitpoints are gone, though. You don't sunder the blade from a sword, you just sunder the sword.

So no "I sunder off his head" shenanigans.

/tongueincheek


You gotta admit, if that worked by RAW that would suddenly certain un-used melee builds really really sweet.

olentu
2010-07-28, 11:09 PM
No, it's not. That's from the Player's Handbook Combat chapter, on page 139. It's for all unarmed strikes, with no mention of Monk class abilities whatsoever.

Actually those are not even body parts so it would require sundering an act which seems even more unlikely.

Flickerdart
2010-07-28, 11:52 PM
No, it's not. That's from the Player's Handbook Combat chapter, on page 139. It's for all unarmed strikes, with no mention of Monk class abilities whatsoever.
Ah. I was looking in the SRD.

Shame.

prufock
2010-07-29, 08:46 AM
Thanks again guys;

@jiriku - Looking into it, casting a spell in a grapple requires a DC 20+spell level concentration check. Teleporting out, then, becomes a little more difficult, at least until we come up against higher-CR enemies. Lower CR demons and devils don't even HAVE concentration ranks. An ECL 6 caster is probably going to succeed about half the time. (assuming 9 ranks, +3 con, +3 skill focus).
At higher CR, though, they'll be succeeding more easily. At 10th level, a caster could DD out pretty easily.

Also, unless he's casting defensively (another concentration check), he'll provoke attacks of opportunity from any PCs that threaten him.

By RAW, I'm not even sure if using a Su ability is legal in a grapple (it isn't listed as an option in the grapple rules), but I think RAI (and my DM) would allow it.