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dragonsamurai77
2010-07-28, 12:13 PM
Flavor: A dancer that fights like a dragon: shooting fire from a distance, then closing into melee.
Race: Dragonflame Dancers can be of any race, though Elves are most common, as their lithe movements make them ideal for the maneuvers required by a Dragonflame Dancer.
Other Classes: Flame Dancers greatly appreciate the healing of Clerics. They are often disliked by Druids and Rangers, as Dragonflame Dancers often burn down their forests. They feel a kinship towards Rogues, as both rely heavily on being dextrous. They have great respect for Fighter's command of the blade, but consider Barbarians clumsy and uncivilized. They dislike Sorcerers and Wizards for being "unspecialized".
Religion: Religion is not an important aspect of being a Dragonflame Dancer.

Role: Melee damage

Alignment: Any

Hit Die: d8

Important Abilities: Strength allows a Dragonflame Dancer to do as much damage as possible. Dexterity boosts Armor Class and is needed for spellcasting, and Constitution boosts Hit Points.

DRAGONFLAME DANCER
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+0|Familiar 1/day, Dance 1/day, Flame Blast, Resist Fire 10, Agile Dance
2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+0|Smokescreen

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+1|Bonus Feat, Appendages of Flame

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+1|Resist Fire 15, Flaming Sword +1d6, Armored Mage|1

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+1|Dance 2/day, Familiar 2/day|2

6th|
+6|
+2|
+5|
+2|Flame Dance, Fire Cone|3

7th|
+7|
+2|
+5|
+2|Improved Appendages|3|1

8th|
+8|
+2|
+6|
+2|Bonus Feat, Flaming Sword+1d8|4|1

9th|
+9|
+3|
+6|
+3|Resist Fire 20, Fire Line|4|2

10th|
+10|
+3|
+7|
+3|Dance 3/day, Familiar 3/day|5|2

11th|
+11|
+3|
+7|
+3|Superior Appendages|5|2|1

12th|
+12|
+4|
+8|
+4|Fire Immunity, Flaming Sword+1d10|5|3|1

13th|
+13|
+4|
+8|
+4|Bonus Feat, Fire Storm 1/day, Improved Burst|6|3|2

14th|
+14|
+4|
+9|
+4|Supreme Dance 1/day|6|4|2

15th|
+15|
+5|
+9|
+5|Dance 4/day, Familiar 4/day, Fire Storm 2/day|6|4|3|1

16th|
+16|
+5|
+10|
+5|Flaming Sword+1d12, Meteor Swarm 1/day|6|4|3|2

17th|
+17|
+5|
+10|
+5|Fire Storm 3/day, Supreme Dance 2/day|6|5|3|3

18th|
+18|
+6|
+11|
+6|Bonus Feat, Meteor Swarm 2/day|6|5|4|4

19th|
+19|
+6|
+11|
+6|Fire Storm 4/day|6|6|5|5

20th|
+20|
+6|
+12|
+6|Dance 5/day, Familiar 5/day, Flaming Sword+2d8, Meteor Swarm 3/day, Supreme Dance 3/day|6|6|6|6[/table]

Skills: 4*(4+Int mod) at first level, 4+Int mod at every other level
Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Escape Artist, Jump, Knowledge (the planes), Move Silently, Perform, Tumble
Starting Gold: Same as fighter

The Dragonflame Dancer is proficient with the dagger, shortsword, longsword, rapier, scimitar, falchion, and greatsword. He is proficient with light armor, but not shields.

Class Abilities:

Familiar(Su): A Dragonflame Dancer can, as a full-round action, dance to summon a fire elemental who will serve him as loyally as a wizard's familiar. The Elemental has HD equal to 1.5 times Dragonflame Dancer level. An elemental can be summoned the number of times listed per day. Dismissing it is a free action. The elemental is permanent until dismissed or destroyed. If the Dragonflame Dancer is being attacked, and the elemental is also in range of attack, the attack has a 1 in 3 chance of being redirected to the elemental, unless the Dancer wishes otherwise.

Dance(Ex): By dancing, a free action, a Dragonflame Dancer can greatly boost his melee prowess. For 8 rounds, he gains 4 Dexterity, gets +1 and an additional +1 for every three levels on attack rolls, and does +2 damage with all melee attacks.

Flame Blast(Sp): Once every 5 rounds as a standard action, a Dragonflame Dancer can shoot a blast of flame forward with a maximum range of 240 feet, bursting in a 10-foot radius when it hits something or when the Dragonflame dancer wills it. This does 1d8/level damage, Reflex 10+ Dex mod + Dragonflame Dancer level halves. Half of this damage is fire damage, the other half is pure energy. Alternatively, he can create a 10-foot cylinder of fire, centered around, but not touching, himself. This ability cannot be used in medium or heavy armor.

Resist Fire 10(Ex): Due to his closeness to fire, a Dragonflame Dancer is protected from it. This resistance increases as he goes up in level, and eventually becomes an immunity.

Agile Dance(Ex): Perform(dance) checks use Dexterity as the key attribute, instead of Charisma.

Smokescreen(Ex): As a standard action, a Dragonflame Dancer can surround himself in smoke, granting him concealment for 2 rounds.

Bonus Feat: Pick from the fighter bonus feats.

Appendages of Flame(Su): Dragonflame Dancers can manipulate fire to sprout limbs. When making a full attack, the Dragonflame Dancer can attack all creatures around him with these appendages, except ones he designates not to be attacked. This does 1d6 fire damage, with a Reflex save of 10 + Dex mod + Dragonflame Dancer lever to halve.

Armored Mage: At 4th level, a Dragonflame Dancer ignores spell failure while in light armor, but only for Dragonflame Dancer spells.

Flaming Sword(Ex): At will, a Dragonflame Dancer can ignite or extinguish his dagger, shortsword, longsword, rapier, scimitar, falchion, greatsword, hand-and-a-half sword, or 2-bladed sword. When ignited, the weapon does the listed amount of damage extra as fire damage. This bonus stacks with all other magical weapon damage.

Flame Dance(Ex): A Dragonflame Dancer can use one dance to go into a fiery rage, causing Flame Blast to have no cooldown. This dance a full-round action. It lasts for 5 rounds.

Fire Cone(Sp): Flame Blast can now be used in a 30ft cone shape.

Improved Appendages(Su): Appendages of Flame now do 1d8 damage.

Fire Line(Sp): Flame Blast can now be used as a line attack, hitting every target in a 120 ft. straight line.

Superior Appendages(Su): Appendages of Flame now do 1d10 damage.

Fire Storm/Meteor Swarm(Sp): The listed number of times per day, a Dragonflame Dancer can replace his Flame Blast with this spell, with caster level being Dragonflame Dancer level. Cooldown is still required, and the spell gets bonuses from Flame Dance.

Improved Burst(Sp): When Flame Dance is used as a burst spell, the burst is now 20 feet instead of 10.

Supreme Dance(Ex): A Supreme Dance allows a Dragonflame Dancer to tap into the depths of his power. For every melee attack the Dragonflame Dancer makes, he gets another attack at the same attack bonus. Supreme Dances are seperate from other dances. This lasts for 3 turns.



Magic:
A Dragonflame Dancer is not generally a spellcaster, but they can learn a few buff spells. To cast a spell, a Dragonflame Dancer must make a Perform (dance) check with DC 16 + spell level. Failure does waste the spell slot.

Spell List:

A Dragonflame Dancer knows all spells on this list.
Level 1: Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Magic Weapon, Magic Fang, Shield
Level 2: Barkskin, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Critical Strike, Daggerspell Stance
Level 3: Haste, Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon, Fire Wings, Greater Mage Armor, Spider Skin
Level 4: Heroism, Valiant Fury

Starbuck_II
2010-07-28, 08:14 PM
You should note that he knows all spells on spell list.
Can he cast in armor?

So D8, full BAb, and Good Reflex?
Ranger is something similar.


Does Familar lasts until dismissed/destroyed?

Does Flame Sword stack with Flaming magic item property?

He has decent damage from Flame Blast (since Searing spell means he hurts immune creatures).
His appentages add extra damage, but they might be resisted. That does balance it out.

So is this basically an elemental themed Gish type class?

dragonsamurai77
2010-07-28, 08:53 PM
You should note that he knows all spells on spell list.
Can he cast in armor? Yes, he gains Armored Mage at the same level he can start casting.

So D8, full BAb, and Good Reflex?
Ranger is something similar.


Does Familar lasts until dismissed/destroyed? Yes.

Does Flame Sword stack with Flaming magic item property?Higher boost only.

He has decent damage from Flame Blast (since Searing spell means he hurts immune creatures).
His appentages add extra damage, but they might be resisted. That does balance it out.

So is this basically an elemental themed Gish type class?Pretty much.
Responses in bold.

I_Got_This_Name
2010-07-29, 04:11 AM
This looks a lot better than the last draft.

What shape is the flame blast? Touch attack, line, cone, does it explode in a burst or spread? A single-target attack once every five rounds for 1d6 damage per level is laughable and past the first few levels not worth using over your sword, but people won't like giving a full fireball (for 1d6 damage) to a 1st-level character once/encounter.

I'm not sure if I get what the appendages are for. They do little enough damage that you might forget you had them, and don't hit too often either. Possibly good for the flavor (when you fight, you're surrounded by tongues of flame that lash out at people. But perhaps instead of giving you two extra appendage attacks that do next to no damage unless you stack bonus damage on them, something happens to affect all enemies adjacent to you.

Maybe instead you get an appendage secondary natural weapon that makes one attack against all enemies adjacent to you, probably a touch attack, for some amount of damage? Or a small-radius fire blast, or something. As it stands, you just get (basically) another power attack's worth of damage when you full attack.

Flaming Sword doesn't have to not stack with other elemental damage; stacking damage as high as you want is fine, and you're paying for both (one is treasure that was a fire sword or cold sword and not something else, one is a class level).

What kind of action is Flame Dance? Is it also a full-round action?

Also, I'm still not sure it has the AC to stand in melee. Toss together a Flame Dancer at 5th level at your usual level of optimization, and see how well it fights against this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) (Use the huge one), this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/manticore.htm), and three of these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm). If it loses to all of them, it needs more defenses, and maybe more offense, but if it's supposed to full attack in melee, it needs defenses.

If you want me to suggest specific abilities for it to fill some void (either if it's less powerful than it should be, or to fill a gap in the concept), I can.

dragonsamurai77
2010-07-29, 10:14 AM
This looks a lot better than the last draft.

What shape is the flame blast? Touch attack, line, cone, does it explode in a burst or spread? A single-target attack once every five rounds for 1d6 damage per level is laughable and past the first few levels not worth using over your sword, but people won't like giving a full fireball (for 1d6 damage) to a 1st-level character once/encounter.
It bursts, but I'm not sure how I should balance it.

I'm not sure if I get what the appendages are for. They do little enough damage that you might forget you had them, and don't hit too often either. Possibly good for the flavor (when you fight, you're surrounded by tongues of flame that lash out at people. But perhaps instead of giving you two extra appendage attacks that do next to no damage unless you stack bonus damage on them, something happens to affect all enemies adjacent to you.

Maybe instead you get an appendage secondary natural weapon that makes one attack against all enemies adjacent to you, probably a touch attack, for some amount of damage? Or a small-radius fire blast, or something. As it stands, you just get (basically) another power attack's worth of damage when you full attack.
Fixed.

Flaming Sword doesn't have to not stack with other elemental damage; stacking damage as high as you want is fine, and you're paying for both (one is treasure that was a fire sword or cold sword and not something else, one is a class level).
Fixed.

What kind of action is Flame Dance? Is it also a full-round action?
Full-round, like other dances.

Also, I'm still not sure it has the AC to stand in melee. Toss together a Flame Dancer at 5th level at your usual level of optimization, and see how well it fights against this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) (Use the huge one), this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/manticore.htm), and three of these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm). If it loses to all of them, it needs more defenses, and maybe more offense, but if it's supposed to full attack in melee, it needs defenses.

If you want me to suggest specific abilities for it to fill some void (either if it's less powerful than it should be, or to fill a gap in the concept), I can.

I need some abilities to help him survive better in melee, as you suggested.

Dilb
2010-07-29, 12:45 PM
This design is more interesting, but you have a number of mechanical problems.

Elemental familiar: Familiars trigger a fortitude save when they die, or you lose experience. This is incredibly annoying if the elemental is supposed to actually go into combat. They also cost money, have their hp set to half your hp regardless of their actual HD, which makes them not so useful.

Dance/Flaming Sword: One of these would be okay, but together they add up to a huge power boost over a fighter, or even a raging barbarian. Barbarians only get +8 to strength, while the flame dancer gets +7 to hit, +2 to damage, +2d8 fire damage.

Flame blast: This is fine, the 5 round waiting period means that the uncapped damage and automatic searing spell aren't really a problem.

Flame dance: Problem. Flame blast now does 1d6+1d4 per level, i.e. 6/level on average. That sort of damage usually comes from full attacks, not standard actions from 240 feet away. CR appropriate things will die in 2 or 3 blasts unless they have fire immunity. Since you can do it from 240 feet away, you need to be facing very fast enemies for them to even be able to run up and hit you.

Supreme dance: Also a problem. Outright doubling the attacks of a full BAB class really isn't balanced, especially given the large to hit bonus available.

Stats: There's no actual reason for a flame dancer to have a good DEX. None of their abilities are based on DEX, perform(dance) uses CHA, not DEX. They can spend a feat on heavy armour proficiency and use full plate at essentially no penalty. Since they have high reflex saves anyway, they're better served by putting points into CON and STR.

It shouldn't really need more defence as the fire elementals are really quite strong, especially at low levels.

dragonsamurai77
2010-07-29, 01:18 PM
This design is more interesting, but you have a number of mechanical problems.

Elemental familiar: Familiars trigger a fortitude save when they die, or you lose experience. This is incredibly annoying if the elemental is supposed to actually go into combat. They also cost money, have their hp set to half your hp regardless of their actual HD, which makes them not so useful.
He's not actually a familiar, he's just as loyal as one.

Dance/Flaming Sword: One of these would be okay, but together they add up to a huge power boost over a fighter, or even a raging barbarian. Barbarians only get +8 to strength, while the flame dancer gets +7 to hit, +2 to damage, +2d8 fire damage.
Yeah, at level 20. Before then, it's much weaker.

Flame blast: This is fine, the 5 round waiting period means that the uncapped damage and automatic searing spell aren't really a problem.

Flame dance: Problem. Flame blast now does 1d6+1d4 per level, i.e. 6/level on average. That sort of damage usually comes from full attacks, not standard actions from 240 feet away. CR appropriate things will die in 2 or 3 blasts unless they have fire immunity. Since you can do it from 240 feet away, you need to be facing very fast enemies for them to even be able to run up and hit you.
Maybe, but considering how few times you can use it, it probably isn't a huge deal.

Supreme dance: Also a problem. Outright doubling the attacks of a full BAB class really isn't balanced, especially given the large to hit bonus available.

Stats: There's no actual reason for a flame dancer to have a good DEX. None of their abilities are based on DEX, perform(dance) uses CHA, not DEX. They can spend a feat on heavy armour proficiency and use full plate at essentially no penalty. Since they have high reflex saves anyway, they're better served by putting points into CON and STR.
I clarified Armored Mage to ensure you can only use it with light armor, and also made the dance check based on dexterity.

It shouldn't really need more defence as the fire elementals are really quite strong, especially at low levels.

Responses in bold.

I_Got_This_Name
2010-07-30, 01:21 AM
Honestly, I might even be worried that the fire blast is a little weak.

It compares to a mage casting Fireball or a level-appropriate substitute. But the characters who do that aren't thought to be any good. Flame Dance bringing its damage up makes it something you want to pull out every time you can, but then goes back and lets you use it every round. I'd probably make the damage boost baseline somehow (maybe make the ability do d8s or more for damage, or add a little bit of extra damage). I'd also add a reflex save for half (10+1/2 class level + some ability modifier that you already use); as automatic damage, it's probably fine as it is or only in need of slight buffing (to d8s), but automatic damage is boring. Remember that the blaster mage is putting out metamagic spells.

I'd probably give it a progression of areas. So at first level you might have the ability to shoot a bolt of fire that explodes in a 10' burst, and to call down a cylinder centered on but excluding yourself. Later you get cones, lines, and wider spreads.

For defensive abilities, maybe it could have a swift or immediate-action short-range personal-only teleport on a limited use schedule (defensive, because it uses this to make a full attack without being attacked back), the ability to sometimes have concealment (behind the smoke and fire); maybe something like "The flames around you hide you from your enemies' sight, making it harder for them to land blows against you. In any round in which you make a full attack, you can opt to gain concealment against enemy attacks. You may choose to gain concealment or not against each attack separately. Once a number of attacks equal to the number you are allowed by your BAB fail the miss chance roll, you can't use this ability anymore until the next round. At level XX, this upgrades to total concealment." Maybe also add the ability to force attacks to target your fire elemental instead of you a limited number of times per round. More thinking out loud here for things that can inspire you, than listing actual abilities I'd put on the class; certainly not all of them.

dragonsamurai77
2010-07-30, 08:34 AM
Honestly, I might even be worried that the fire blast is a little weak.

It compares to a mage casting Fireball or a level-appropriate substitute. But the characters who do that aren't thought to be any good. Flame Dance bringing its damage up makes it something you want to pull out every time you can, but then goes back and lets you use it every round. I'd probably make the damage boost baseline somehow (maybe make the ability do d8s or more for damage, or add a little bit of extra damage). I'd also add a reflex save for half (10+1/2 class level + some ability modifier that you already use); as automatic damage, it's probably fine as it is or only in need of slight buffing (to d8s), but automatic damage is boring. Remember that the blaster mage is putting out metamagic spells.
Fixed.

I'd probably give it a progression of areas. So at first level you might have the ability to shoot a bolt of fire that explodes in a 10' burst, and to call down a cylinder centered on but excluding yourself. Later you get cones, lines, and wider spreads.
Added.

For defensive abilities, maybe it could have a swift or immediate-action short-range personal-only teleport on a limited use schedule (defensive, because it uses this to make a full attack without being attacked back), the ability to sometimes have concealment (behind the smoke and fire); maybe something like "The flames around you hide you from your enemies' sight, making it harder for them to land blows against you. In any round in which you make a full attack, you can opt to gain concealment against enemy attacks. You may choose to gain concealment or not against each attack separately. Once a number of attacks equal to the number you are allowed by your BAB fail the miss chance roll, you can't use this ability anymore until the next round. At level XX, this upgrades to total concealment." Maybe also add the ability to force attacks to target your fire elemental instead of you a limited number of times per round. More thinking out loud here for things that can inspire you, than listing actual abilities I'd put on the class; certainly not all of them.
I decided to go with the smokescreen and the elemental targeting.

dragonsamurai77
2010-08-01, 11:20 AM
Any more ideas/balance?

Chainsaw Hobbit
2010-08-01, 06:42 PM
Any more ideas/balance?

Needs more fluff.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-01, 07:24 PM
OK, here's a PEACH:

Fluff - Definitely needs more. The reference to dragons is a good start, though; Dragonfire Adepts are a pretty solid class. Could maybe call it Dragonfire Dancer if you wanted.

Skills, HD, BAB, Saves - Ridiculously short class skill list, IMO. Should have more. HD is low-ish but is pretty typical for skirmisher types. BAB is nice, Ref makes sense, though it is odd to see a spellcaster without good Will.

Familiar - This is very odd, but I suppose it work. The 1.5xLvl HD thing is particularly odd, I think. At level 14 they're getting an Epic creature companion 3/day? That seems kind of a lot powerful. The 33% miss chance thing is also strange; how does that work (from a fluff perspective, I mean)? Also, is this Sp or Su? Could be either, really; you need to say which though.

Dance - Like Rage, but burns a full-round action to get it. Why? Rage is a free action - why can't the Flame Dancer fight and dance at the same time? That would seem to be the point. You should specify if this is Ex or Su; sounds like Ex but you should say.

Flame Blast - What's the area of the burst? You never say. Also, the save DC calculation is bizarre. The typical thing here would be 10 + some mental ability score + half class level. Probably Charisma for a Dancer. Third, the damage is quite high; I don't know that this is a problem in and of itself (since most such abilities are underpowered), but it is quite high. The cooldown does help though. Finally, "this damage is affected by Searing Spell"? No, it isn't. This isn't a spell, it can't be affected by Metamagic. Instead, just spell out what's going on - namely, that half the damage is fire damage and the other half is unresistable untyped damage (a la the Warlock's Eldritch Blast). And again, Sp or Su?

Smokescreen - Kinda neat, I suppose. Pretty strong for a level 1 ability. And yet again, Sp or Su?

Searing Spell & Resist Fire 10 - Both of these are listed in the table but not mentioned in the text. Going by Text Trumps Table, this class has neither. What was the intention? You have a ton of abilities at 1st level as it is, really...

Bonus Feat - Honestly, the Fighter list doesn't really seem appropriate for this class. Just my opinion.

Appendages of Flame - I'm a bit confused by this. It basically attacks every adjacent creature once each? And it uses your highest BAB but a -4 penalty (you should specify the highest BAB bit)? This seems really strong. Getting an extra attack in a full-attack is typically a -2 penalty to all attacks for the round (see TWF, Flurry of Blows, Snap Kick). This gives you at least one extra attack per round, and it's a touch attack, so the -4 penalty almost doesn't matter.

I assume this one's Su?

Armored Mage - Makes sense.

Flaming Sword - Not a lot of damage, so I'd say it's alright and fitting. Usually I'd say bonus damage needs some kind of condition, but 1d6 to 2d8 damage over that many levels, I say it doesn't.

Flame Dance - Dance never listed a limit on how often it can be used, so what does it mean that you "use one dance" for this? Otherwise, this is possibly worth burning the round in preparation, since you have that rather good blast that you now get to spam, but I think it's balanced because burning a full round first hurts.

Fire Cone - Wait, what, a 240 ft Cone? That's preposterous. I assume you mean for it to be smaller, but how much smaller?

Improved Appendages - Honestly, I'd've just rolled this into Appendages of Flame, but whatever. Seems fine as an upgrade, ignoring how strong Appendages of Flame was to begin with.

Fire Line - Is this again a 240 ft. Line?

Superior Appendages - So now you're getting at least two additional attacks? Heh, this is getting better and better!

Fire Storm/Meteor Swarm - You get Meteor Swarm a level early, but it's a crappy 9th level spell so I'm not really seeing a problem with that. Looks fine.

Improved Burst - Flame Dance? I assume you meant Flame Burst? And where'd it say that it defaulted to 10 ft?

Supreme Dance - Double melee attacks? As in, you get twice as many (a la the One Thousand Cuts of the CWar Dervish?), or as in they all get a 2x multiplier (a la a Critical Hit)? Either seems reasonable for the level, really, just curious which it is.

Spellcasting - Uh. Why Dex instead of Cha? That doesn't really make sense; if anything this dance is more about your will and personality than usual. That sounds like you think Perform should be Dex-based in general and you're sneaking that in here; if you think that way, just make Perform Dex-based. Otherwise, it should stay Cha here. Anyway, also, you need to specify which ability scores are used for the highest spell level you can cast, the DC of your spells, and you bonus spell slots. And the spells you get, the levels you get them at, and the highest level you reach are all really pathetic, honestly.

Multiclassing Restriction - Oh good lord why?


Conclusion
There's a lot of ambiguities and things just left unsaid (ability types, the burst radius, what, if any, daily limitations that Dance has, etc), Dance has pretty significant problems with respect to wasted actions compared to the bonuses that you get, and the spellcasting is so bad as to be insulting, honestly. I like the idea of a Flame Dancer in general, and think you could probably do something interesting with the dragon idea, but that needs a lot of fleshing out. The class seems really front-loaded, too, I think.

I_Got_This_Name
2010-08-01, 11:05 PM
OK, here's a PEACH:

Fluff - Definitely needs more. The reference to dragons is a good start, though; Dragonfire Adepts are a pretty solid class. Could maybe call it Dragonfire Dancer if you wanted.

This. A class this specialized must explain why you have these powers. Where do they come from, how do you get them, and so on. Remember, also, that you're not writing for anyone's generic world; you're, presumably, writing for your own world or a specific project. You can get much more solid results writing for one specific world and allowing it to be adaptable (if you're posting it for other people to use), or for one specific character (if you're writing for your own campaign) than if you try to be generic. A class can be narrow like this (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Elothar_Warrior_of_Bladereach_(3.5e_Prestige_Class )) and still be a perfectly valid class option, so don't be afraid to write non-generic fluff.

dragonsamurai77
2010-08-02, 08:53 AM
OK, here's a PEACH:

Fluff - Definitely needs more. The reference to dragons is a good start, though; Dragonfire Adepts are a pretty solid class. Could maybe call it Dragonfire Dancer if you wanted.

Skills, HD, BAB, Saves - Ridiculously short class skill list, IMO. Should have more. HD is low-ish but is pretty typical for skirmisher types. BAB is nice, Ref makes sense, though it is odd to see a spellcaster without good Will.

Familiar - This is very odd, but I suppose it work. The 1.5xLvl HD thing is particularly odd, I think. At level 14 they're getting an Epic creature companion 3/day? That seems kind of a lot powerful. The 33% miss chance thing is also strange; how does that work (from a fluff perspective, I mean)? Also, is this Sp or Su? Could be either, really; you need to say which though.

At level 14, the companion has 21 HD, making it a Greater Fire Elemental. That's CR 9, so I'm not sure how that's overpowered. The miss chance represents the elemental intercepting the blow for you.

Dance - Like Rage, but burns a full-round action to get it. Why? Rage is a free action - why can't the Flame Dancer fight and dance at the same time? That would seem to be the point. You should specify if this is Ex or Su; sounds like Ex but you should say.
Oh, I thought Rage was a full-round action. I'll have to fix that.

Flame Blast - What's the area of the burst? You never say. Also, the save DC calculation is bizarre. The typical thing here would be 10 + some mental ability score + half class level. Probably Charisma for a Dancer. Third, the damage is quite high; I don't know that this is a problem in and of itself (since most such abilities are underpowered), but it is quite high. The cooldown does help though. Finally, "this damage is affected by Searing Spell"? No, it isn't. This isn't a spell, it can't be affected by Metamagic. Instead, just spell out what's going on - namely, that half the damage is fire damage and the other half is unresistable untyped damage (a la the Warlock's Eldritch Blast). And again, Sp or Su?
The save is because it's supposed to be similar to Fireball. I meant to make it a 10ft burst, I'll fix that.

Smokescreen - Kinda neat, I suppose. Pretty strong for a level 1 ability. And yet again, Sp or Su?

Searing Spell & Resist Fire 10 - Both of these are listed in the table but not mentioned in the text. Going by Text Trumps Table, this class has neither. What was the intention? You have a ton of abilities at 1st level as it is, really...
The intention was to represent just how close the Flame Dancer is to fire. Searing Spell will be removed, though.

Bonus Feat - Honestly, the Fighter list doesn't really seem appropriate for this class. Just my opinion.
Why not? He's spending so much time in melee.

Appendages of Flame - I'm a bit confused by this. It basically attacks every adjacent creature once each? And it uses your highest BAB but a -4 penalty (you should specify the highest BAB bit)? This seems really strong. Getting an extra attack in a full-attack is typically a -2 penalty to all attacks for the round (see TWF, Flurry of Blows, Snap Kick). This gives you at least one extra attack per round, and it's a touch attack, so the -4 penalty almost doesn't matter.

I assume this one's Su?
I'll have to figure out a way to balance these, which will probably be the hardest part of this.

Armored Mage - Makes sense.

Flaming Sword - Not a lot of damage, so I'd say it's alright and fitting. Usually I'd say bonus damage needs some kind of condition, but 1d6 to 2d8 damage over that many levels, I say it doesn't.

Flame Dance - Dance never listed a limit on how often it can be used, so what does it mean that you "use one dance" for this? Otherwise, this is possibly worth burning the round in preparation, since you have that rather good blast that you now get to spam, but I think it's balanced because burning a full round first hurts.
Basically, every time you do a Flame Dance, that's one less time you can use a normal dance.

Fire Cone - Wait, what, a 240 ft Cone? That's preposterous. I assume you mean for it to be smaller, but how much smaller?
I didn't know how big the "default" cone was, so I'm not really sure. 60 ft, maybe.

Improved Appendages - Honestly, I'd've just rolled this into Appendages of Flame, but whatever. Seems fine as an upgrade, ignoring how strong Appendages of Flame was to begin with.

Fire Line - Is this again a 240 ft. Line?
120 ft.

Superior Appendages - So now you're getting at least two additional attacks? Heh, this is getting better and better!

Fire Storm/Meteor Swarm - You get Meteor Swarm a level early, but it's a crappy 9th level spell so I'm not really seeing a problem with that. Looks fine.

Improved Burst - Flame Dance? I assume you meant Flame Burst? And where'd it say that it defaulted to 10 ft?
I meant to say 10 ft, but must have forgotten.
Supreme Dance - Double melee attacks? As in, you get twice as many (a la the One Thousand Cuts of the CWar Dervish?), or as in they all get a 2x multiplier (a la a Critical Hit)? Either seems reasonable for the level, really, just curious which it is.
For every melee attack you make, you get an extra one at the same attack bonus.

Spellcasting - Uh. Why Dex instead of Cha? That doesn't really make sense; if anything this dance is more about your will and personality than usual. That sounds like you think Perform should be Dex-based in general and you're sneaking that in here; if you think that way, just make Perform Dex-based. Otherwise, it should stay Cha here. Anyway, also, you need to specify which ability scores are used for the highest spell level you can cast, the DC of your spells, and you bonus spell slots. And the spells you get, the levels you get them at, and the highest level you reach are all really pathetic, honestly.
Dexterity is because the dancing isn't attempting to entertain, it's only based on physical ability. The spells are so low-level because I don't know any higher-level buff spells (only have acces to d20srd), know any better ones?

Multiclassing Restriction - Oh good lord why?
It was to prevent people dipping in the class just to get stuff like Fire Resistance.

Conclusion
There's a lot of ambiguities and things just left unsaid (ability types, the burst radius, what, if any, daily limitations that Dance has, etc), Dance has pretty significant problems with respect to wasted actions compared to the bonuses that you get, and the spellcasting is so bad as to be insulting, honestly. I like the idea of a Flame Dancer in general, and think you could probably do something interesting with the dragon idea, but that needs a lot of fleshing out. The class seems really front-loaded, too, I think.

Beyond what I said, I'll also go back and state the type of all the abilities.

dragonsamurai77
2010-08-03, 02:46 PM
Does anyone know how to balance the Flame Appendages?

jiriku
2010-08-03, 03:09 PM
I really don't see anything wrong with it. DW is concerned about bonus attacks, and if the bonus attacks were as functional as normal attacks, he'd be right...but they aren't, are they? They don't get your Strength bonus or Power Attack, and you can't use them to trip or disarm or grapple. They're just fluff damage really.

The only complaint I'd have is that you're rolling a hell of a lot of dice to deal 3-4 points of damage to each adjacent target. It's not worth the time -- just make it a 1d6 AoE that excludes friendlies and allows a Reflex save for half. That reduces your rolling quite a bit.

dragonsamurai77
2010-08-04, 11:13 AM
An example Dragonflame Dancer (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=229476)

Also, I need to know some higher-level spells to give him. I don't know any because I only have access to what's in the Player's Handbook.

jiriku
2010-08-04, 11:44 AM
Crystal Keep is your friend. (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php)

dragonsamurai77
2010-08-04, 11:55 AM
Thank you SO MUCH!!!

dragonsamurai77
2010-08-05, 11:19 AM
I think this class is pretty much done! There is one more thing I'm asking for help with, though: overall balance. As a DM, what would you change, if anything, to allow your players to use this class? Also, what tier would you say that it is?

The_Admiral
2010-08-28, 09:46 AM
so whhere is lixlornsorry wrong tab

Zaydos
2010-08-28, 09:58 AM
What's the duration on Supreme Dance? Is it the same as on Dance?

dragonsamurai77
2010-08-28, 10:00 AM
What's the duration on Supreme Dance? Is it the same as on Dance?

3 turns, I accidentally edited that out.

Zaydos
2010-08-28, 10:19 AM
I'd say definitely looks stronger than barbarian. Only serious advantage barbarian has over this is Pounce, which you can get with a 1 level dip; and Whirlwind Frenzy is better than Dance at low levels.

Appendages of Flame should probably have a DC 10 + Dex + 1/2 level instead of 15 + level (that's just a weird DC).

Also why does he get Fighter bonus feats? He already has a better version of rage (the dance + flame sword is a better version of rage), fire immunity, the ability to use a fairly strong blast at will (with cool down), and the ability to double his attacks per round. He has a few less hit points than a barbarian, but he smashes better (and yes barbarian is the guy to beat on smashing; other people have utility powers which is what shoves them up a tier). And he gets an elemental to do his bidding increasing his combat prowess by 50~75% I'm guessing.

I'm not the best at tiers (it goes beyond merely comparing numbers) but I'm guessing tier 3, although I'm really not good at this. He can't break things like a sorcerer, but then again his familiar is stronger than summons that replace fighters/barbarians/etc all the time.

Oh yes, side note the complaint about an epic creature familiar earlier was probably the fact that starting at 14th level it is legible for epic feats.

dragonsamurai77
2010-08-28, 10:27 AM
I'd say definitely looks stronger than barbarian. Only serious advantage barbarian has over this is Pounce, which you can get with a 1 level dip; and Whirlwind Frenzy is better than Dance at low levels.

Appendages of Flame should probably have a DC 10 + Dex + 1/2 level instead of 15 + level (that's just a weird DC).

Fixed

Also why does he get Fighter bonus feats? He already has a better version of rage (the dance + flame sword is a better version of rage), fire immunity, the ability to use a fairly strong blast at will (with cool down), and the ability to double his attacks per round. He has a few less hit points than a barbarian, but he smashes better (and yes barbarian is the guy to beat on smashing; other people have utility powers which is what shoves them up a tier). And he gets an elemental to do his bidding increasing his combat prowess by 50~75% I'm guessing.

He has to be able to survive in melee, because he probably won't get anothe chance to use Flame Blast.

I'm not the best at tiers (it goes beyond merely comparing numbers) but I'm guessing tier 3, although I'm really not good at this. He can't break things like a sorcerer, but then again his familiar is stronger than summons that replace fighters/barbarians/etc all the time.

Oh yes, side note the complaint about an epic creature familiar earlier was probably the fact that starting at 14th level it is legible for epic feats.

Replies in bold.

Zaydos
2010-08-28, 10:36 AM
A defensive ability would be better at helping his survival than fighter feats; and even without them his only disadvantage at surviving in melee compared to a barbarian is worse hp (by 40 at Lv 20), and some negligible DR; with better AC due to his dance. Also the fire elemental gives him a lot of survivability in melee beyond other melee combatants. Specifically 33% chance of not taking hits, a meatshield that can sit there and take hits while you flame dance and blast (not the most effective strategy), a fairly large amount of extra damage/round (action economy go).

The feats don't really add survivability in melee, they add Power Attack + Improved Bull Rush + Shock Trooper or Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Knockdown, etc. While having multiple such tricks are nice, it should already be a strong class without them, can already get one (or two) and they are really rather just stuck on.

dragonsamurai77
2010-08-28, 11:02 AM
A defensive ability would be better at helping his survival than fighter feats; and even without them his only disadvantage at surviving in melee compared to a barbarian is worse hp (by 40 at Lv 20), and some negligible DR; with better AC due to his dance. Also the fire elemental gives him a lot of survivability in melee beyond other melee combatants. Specifically 33% chance of not taking hits, a meatshield that can sit there and take hits while you flame dance and blast (not the most effective strategy), a fairly large amount of extra damage/round (action economy go).

The feats don't really add survivability in melee, they add Power Attack + Improved Bull Rush + Shock Trooper or Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Knockdown, etc. While having multiple such tricks are nice, it should already be a strong class without them, can already get one (or two) and they are really rather just stuck on.

I think they feel thematically appropriate, but maybe I should reduce the number?

Zaydos
2010-08-28, 11:09 AM
Probably at this point they're just icing on the cake. The classes that already get fighter bonus feats are:
Psionic Warrior: Good buffs, mediocre BAB, needs something to keep it up and show that this whole "mastery of combat" it's supposed to have actually exists (fluff-wise I wonder why it has a medium BAB but it's balanced and works and you know what they say about if it isn't broken).
Fighter: Master of weaponry, ultimate levels of martial training.
Warblade: Master of battle, ultimate levels of martial training.

Psionic Warrior gets 1 more than Flame Dancer right now (so 9 instead of 8)
Fighter gets 11.
Warblade gets 4.

I'd actually say lower it to something more similar to Warblade; it still gives them an extra trick which they might need for versatility without just making them that much more vastly better at combat than a barbarian.

dragonsamurai77
2010-08-28, 11:25 AM
Probably at this point they're just icing on the cake. The classes that already get fighter bonus feats are:
Psionic Warrior: Good buffs, mediocre BAB, needs something to keep it up and show that this whole "mastery of combat" it's supposed to have actually exists (fluff-wise I wonder why it has a medium BAB but it's balanced and works and you know what they say about if it isn't broken).
Fighter: Master of weaponry, ultimate levels of martial training.
Warblade: Master of battle, ultimate levels of martial training.

Psionic Warrior gets 1 more than Flame Dancer right now (so 9 instead of 8)
Fighter gets 11.
Warblade gets 4.

I'd actually say lower it to something more similar to Warblade; it still gives them an extra trick which they might need for versatility without just making them that much more vastly better at combat than a barbarian.

So, something like at levels 3, 7, 11, 15, (maybe 19)?

Zaydos
2010-08-28, 11:32 AM
Do you want to follow a progression (Lv Y and every X levels thereafter) or just put them in where it doesn't gain as much on a certain level?

dragonsamurai77
2010-08-28, 11:33 AM
Do you want to follow a progression (Lv Y and every X levels thereafter) or just put them in where it doesn't gain as much on a certain level?

I was thinking more of a progression, yes.

Zaydos
2010-08-28, 11:38 AM
Then I'd actually say 3rd level and every 5th level thereafter. 3rd level they get appendages which is a new ability which is useful (especially if fighting several enemies) but at Lv 8, 13, and 18 they get rather lackluster abilities (die increase with flame weapon, improved burst [okay that is nice] and firestorm 1/day, and meteor swarm +1/day).

I'd have said at Lv 2 (as 2 rounds concealment for a standard action while flavorful is not going to be used much) and every 5th level after that but they get better stuff at 7, 12, and 17.

dragonsamurai77
2010-08-28, 11:41 AM
Then I'd actually say 3rd level and every 5th level thereafter. 3rd level they get appendages which is a new ability which is useful (especially if fighting several enemies) but at Lv 8, 13, and 18 they get rather lackluster abilities (die increase with flame weapon, improved burst [okay that is nice] and firestorm 1/day, and meteor swarm +1/day).

I'd have said at Lv 2 (as 2 rounds concealment for a standard action while flavorful is not going to be used much) and every 5th level after that but they get better stuff at 7, 12, and 17.

Makes sense, changed it.