Laptop for college

[Top_Hat]

Here is my conundrum: I want a laptop for college that is really good, and I have the cashParents to get a 15" macbook pro. I also have friends who are huge windows fans that say that if I bought a macbook, I'd be paying a lot of extra money for the apple brand. Is there a laptop that is basically equivalent to the macbook pro in windowsland?

The big things that I care about are the ability to easily play Team Fortress 2 and similar games, a battery life similar to the amazing 4 hours a macbook pro can get, and the weight. For reference the Macbook pro specs can be found here (http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/specs.html). I plan on using the compy for stuff like Firefox, Word, and Matlab most of the time and get some gaming in on the side.

TLDR: is there a laptop just as good as the macbook pro, but cheaper?

[Triaxx]

Yahoo just had a list of under $500 computers that equal Mac's and so the more you spend the better you are.

At this point though, just about anything you get with Windows will dance circles around Apple computers and not suffer name brand-syndrome.

[Scorpionica]

Or, without resorting to blatant fanboyism ^ , IBM / Lenovo used to have similar quality laptops and notebooks, there are still a couple of Thinkpads that retain the IBM style and sturdiness. Sony might have some too, but are usually encumbered by dumb software or slight hardware defects brought on by executive meddling. Lenovo might be your best bet for similar battery life, though weight may exceed a MacBook.

[dresdor]

I would get a windows laptop over a macbook. In my experience macs are better for those with limited computer skills, and will frustrate you otherwise.

That said, I would recommend getting a Dell, provided you keep it under warranty and renew the warranty. Otherwise it will crap out on you and they will offer no help. I wish I had kept mine under warranty as their service is excellent....if you have the coverage. They also have battery and motherboard issues on some models...like mine.

HP laptops are notorious for overheating problems as well as charger issues.

[Scorpionica]

I would get a windows laptop over a macbook. In my experience macs are better for those with limited computer skills, and will frustrate you otherwise.

That said, I would recommend getting a Dell, provided you keep it under warranty and renew the warranty. Otherwise it will crap out on you and they will offer no help. I wish I had kept mine under warranty as their service is excellent....if you have the coverage. They also have battery and motherboard issues on some models...like mine.

HP laptops are notorious for overheating problems as well as charger issues.

Stick to defective hardware if you're not interested in using different software. Good idea.

Fujitsu-Siemens makes some durable hardware, with better quality hardware than Dell equivalents. Prices comparable to Lenovo and Sony for the better laptops that don't fall apart.

[ryzouken]

Or, you could, y'know, buy a macbook pro.

See, Apple customer support is top notch, I've yet to have to pay for a repair and I'm pretty sure any warranty I bought is over with.

Side note: want windows? Buy a mac. They have a utility built into OSX that assists with installation of a windows partition so you can have both OS's on the same machine. Booting to one or the other is as simple as holding down a key when you boot. And when that Windows partition craps out on you? You can still easily boot to OSX. If you decide to go this route, I recommend a larger hard drive.

The only caveat I offer is: if you buy the Macbook Pro, don't upgrade your memory though Apple. They seem to charge a flat rate $200 for a memory upgrade, when you could easily buy the sticks on the secondary market and in about 20 minutes upgrade your memory yourself.

[factotum]

You would need to buy a copy of Windows to do that, though, ryzouken--Boot Camp doesn't come with one.

[Scorpionica]

A copy of Windows can be had for as low as €5, if you're enrolled and making use of the affiliated software program. Though some license restrictions may apply.

[Imposter]

IBM / Lenovo used to have similar quality laptops and notebooks, there are still a couple of Thinkpads that retain the IBM style and sturdiness. Sony might have some too, but are usually encumbered by dumb software or slight hardware defects brought on by executive meddling. Lenovo might be your best bet for similar battery life, though weight may exceed a MacBook.

I'm just going to quickly endorse the IBM/Lenovo bits of this, especially the "thinkpads will not die" sentiment. I have no experience with battery life on the newer models, however.

Also, on the argument that a mac with a windows partition is safer because of the backup mac operating system: The same effect can be achieved with a linux partition, which will cost you exactly nothing.

[Top_Hat]

I actually have a mac desktop that runs Windows XP from a bootcamp partition, so I am very well versed in the hoops that must be jumped through and the benefits of the partitioned hard drive. If I got a Macbook, it would have a partition with windows 7. I already have the install disc, and the only reason I'm not using it is because none of my windows software requires it.

As to the actual laptops that blow the macbook away performancewise, can someone please link me such a model? I've been searching around and haven't been able to find something that is much better than the macbook pro. For example, the Dell studio XPS 16 seems to be very similar, but gets very pricey (I'm not sure exactly which one is a better value) once I add in a processor like the macbook and all the other stuff.

[mightymonarch]

I would get a windows laptop over a macbook. In my experience macs are better for those with limited computer skills, and will frustrate you otherwise.


Hmm. I have a 3 year old 15" MBP and love it. I am also quite tech savvy.

I would fully recommend getting a MBP + Applecare. Applecare got me a new charger and battery when they crapped out on me.

Something else to think about. The MBP may be more expensive, but once you get a similar laptop spec'd out with the same hardware AND software, there isn't that much of a price difference.




That said, I would recommend getting a Dell, provided you keep it under warranty and renew the warranty. Otherwise it will crap out on you and they will offer no help. I wish I had kept mine under warranty as their service is excellent....if you have the coverage. They also have battery and motherboard issues on some models...like mine.


I have never been impressed with the quality of Dell computers, period. The old family computer is a Dell and it is a hunk of junk. I'd rather spend the money on something that will last 4+ years then get something cheaper that will crap out in 2. My campus has a contract with Dell and the campus computer labs are filled with them. They are as slow as molasses in January. They aren't even that old! There are also 5 y/o iMacs that run pretty darn fast even on the huge campus network.
Plus, it looks bad when a company knowingly ships bad product. (http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2010/06/suit-alleges-that-dell-shipped-12-million-faulty-computers.ars)

[RS14]

I'm just going to quickly endorse the IBM/Lenovo bits of this, especially the "thinkpads will not die" sentiment. I have no experience with battery life on the newer models, however.


I've got to disagree. While Thinkpads are still wonderfully designed and a pleasure to use, my R61 died after about 18 months (dead GPU). I hear they're also adding a bit more crapware of late. Personally I get the feeling that Lenovo is taking the brand a bit downhill, but maybe I'm just biased by my personal experience with them.

[Top_Hat]

I can't look at or respond to posts here for a bit, because I just got my wisdom teeth out and am loopy like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txqiwrbYGrs). Back in a few days.

[Triaxx]

Not so much fanboyism, as Apple hate.

[Lord Seth]

If you do end up getting a MacBook Pro, I'd honestly recommend the 13" over the 15". The battery life is better and it's lighter. Unless you really need a bigger screen or are a major graphics nut, it's really not worth if. If you want the extra disk space of the 15", you can just buy extra memory for the 13".

[AlterForm]

If you do end up getting a MacBook Pro, I'd honestly recommend the 13" over the 15". The battery life is better and it's lighter. Unless you really need a bigger screen or are a major graphics nut, it's really not worth if. If you want the extra disk space of the 15", you can just buy extra memory for the 13".

The screen issue can also be solved by getting a discrete monitor with the oodles of cash you'll save by snagging the 13" over the 15".

[Trixie]

Here is my conundrum: I want a laptop for college that is really good, and I have the cashParents to get a 15" macbook pro.

Which one? I'll assume that 1.800$ version, as it's cheapest.


I also have friends who are huge windows fans that say that if I bought a macbook, I'd be paying a lot of extra money for the apple brand. Is there a laptop that is basically equivalent to the macbook pro in windowsland?

No.

Only Sony tries to make something as overpriced and underperforming as Macs, but sadly, even they haven't managed to reach their heights :smalltongue:

In all other cases, PCs will cost 50% the price of Mac, and will have extra features, to boot.


The big things that I care about are the ability to easily play Team Fortress 2 and similar games, a battery life similar to the amazing 4 hours a macbook pro can get, and the weight.

Games. Mac. Does not compute.

You lose a lot of power in already weak system.


TLDR: is there a laptop just as good as the macbook pro, but cheaper?

99% of them?


See, Apple customer support is top notch, I've yet to have to pay for a repair and I'm pretty sure any warranty I bought is over with.

Pretty much every other luxury laptop beats them silly, as for that price you can expect Same/Next Business Day Repair (meaning company technician will drive to you with enough parts to make a new laptop and will fix it no matter what). Mac has only good support when comparet to netbooks 1/10th its price.


Side note: want windows? Buy a mac. They have a utility built into OSX that assists with installation of a windows partition so you can have both OS's on the same machine. Booting to one or the other is as simple as holding down a key when you boot. And when that Windows partition craps out on you? You can still easily boot to OSX. If you decide to go this route, I recommend a larger hard drive.

Except A) Mac drivers for Windows are crappy; all other companies produce better ones; B) When you have Win on your disc, there's no reason whatsoever to ever fire MacOS X.


The only caveat I offer is: if you buy the Macbook Pro, don't upgrade your memory though Apple. They seem to charge a flat rate $200 for a memory upgrade, when you could easily buy the sticks on the secondary market and in about 20 minutes upgrade your memory yourself.

Did you mention the fact that virtually every little cable is not included and they charge for it separately?

In fact, they'll charge silly prices for everything.


A copy of Windows can be had for as low as €5, if you're enrolled and making use of the affiliated software program. Though some license restrictions may apply.

By that logic, Macs are free, as you can find one in park, if you're lucky. Nope, you have to add at leas 99$ to price of such equipped Mac.

***

So, what laptops can own Mac? Let's see, 1.800$ version has this:

Intel Core i5 (2x cores)
4GB Memory
320GB hard drive (slow)
Intel HD Graphics
NVIDIA GeForce GT 330M with 256MB (average graphic card)
DVD

How about 1000$ Asus (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834220696)?

Intel Core i7 (4x cores)
4GB Memory
320GB hard drive (fast, 7200)
ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5730 1 GB (strong card)
DVD
USB 3.0 (if you care to be future-proof).

If not, here's cheaper (950$) Lenovo (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834146777):

Intel Core i7 (4x cores)
4GB Memory
500GB hard drive
ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5730 1 GB (strong card)
DVD

Both weight about as much as Mac, and have 3-4 hours of life on battery (much more if not under full power load).

Or, if we go near Apple's silly prices, this Asus (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834220737) (1800$).

Intel Core i7 (4x cores)
8GB
1TB HD (1000 GB)
ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5870 1GB (pretty much strongest card you can have in laptop)
Blu-Ray

About three to five times as powerful as Mac, and not as ladden with garbage. Sure, it's heavier (8 pounds vs 6) but I have similar laptop, and it's much more convenient than typical 15", while not being more unwieldy. You can't go wrong with this if you care about gaming and Full HD entertainment :P

Still, that's what's great in PC market - you want lighter PC, you can sacrifice as much power for as much weight loss you want, instead of having to pick from just one Mac. With such absurd (for PC) budget, you can easily find something not only lighter, but also far stronger than Mac.

[Top_Hat]

I've just come down from my versed high and have read over the comments. Thanks Trixie for the examples; I actually knew someone who was buying the $1800 one, but completely forgot about it. The comments about the 13" are pretty interesting as well. Do we know just how much more battery life the 13" has over its bigger brothers?

Thanks everyone for the interest in my problem and for your quick responses. Your input has been invaluable, and while I haven't made by final decision, it's likely to be something mentioned in this thread.

[Lord Seth]

I've just come down from my versed high and have read over the comments. Thanks Trixie for the examples; I actually knew someone who was buying the $1800 one, but completely forgot about it. The comments about the 13" are pretty interesting as well. Do we know just how much more battery life the 13" has over its bigger brothers?Well, according to Apple's site, the 15" ones have a battery life of 8-9 hours; the 13" ones have a battery life of 10. Now of course, the battery life manufacturers list is pretty much what you get if you shut down everything you possibly can and make the monitor as dark as possible, so you're definitely not going to get battery life that high, but it's still notable that the 13" one has a slightly higher battery life listed. Most likely it's because it expends less energy on the screen because it's smaller.


When you have Win on your disc, there's no reason whatsoever to ever fire MacOS X.Unless, of course, you either prefer the feel of Mac OS X or want to use programs that aren't for Windows.

[Top_Hat]

Yeah, you can't really trust what the company says about battery life. I always look for 3rd party reviews where they run firefox/word/normal programs until it dies and use that more realistic number. In any case, with that little of an improvement in battery life I don't think that the 13" is the best option.

[potatocubed]

As a general rule of thumb, you can take what a company says about battery life and get an expected actual battery life of between 1/2 and 3/4 of that.

[Triaxx]

Or you can dodge the brand name and go here (http://3btech.net/apmapromc13l.html) to snag a 13" Pro for a $600 discount.

Or here (http://3btech.net/tosaa516winc.html), and get a superior computer, with an even bigger screen for the same weight and a bit more than half the price.

[Scorpionica]

With so much dislike going on, it's hard to get an unbiased opinion. Not just in hardware, but software as well. Raw specifications aren't everything, as 0,13 GHz from a different notebook doesn't necessarily have to equal another in design, its abilities or a small preference found in particular software that can't be reproduced. Depending on personal preference or prospects, it might be better for Top_Hat to go with Windows, seeing how MatLab has slightly differing functions on the different platforms, programming in C#, Java or Objective C 2.0; perhaps OS X would function better with a CLI already in place, a software suite that works better for him, or a personal workflow that functions better with an UI different from Windows.

Hardware-wise, it's easy to overlook anything that doesn't fit in with the technical bullet points, and harder to compare. For the MacBook Pro, there's the MagSafe charger, the great implementation of sleep and hibernate modes, LED backlit screens, addition of DisplayPort, multi-touch trackpad, the unibody enclosure which makes it sturdy, the technology to switch between IGP and GPU on the spot, and of course the long lasting batteries; lasting up to 8 or 10 hours*, depending on the model.


* The wireless productivity test measures battery life by wirelessly browsing various websites and editing text in a word processing document with display brightness set to 50%.

There's a lot more to be said about notebooks than their CPU and GPU, which could make you either hate it, or like it. The comparing notebooks above (apart from the €1800 ASUS) all have resolutions below that of the 13" MBP, while they're all a good 3" bigger. Build quality shouldn't be neglected either, plastic bodies with a lot of LED indicators and additional buttons for software functions usually aren't as solid as a body carved from one block of aluminum.

Software-wise, apart from a few functions, is solid whichever you choose. Drivers aren't a big issue for Windows 7 as much as it was for Vista, and apart from the GPU drivers Apple supplies with Bootcamp 3 (which you can upgrade from the NVIDIA or AMD drivers yourself, should you fancy), it's all pretty stable. There's a lot going on in the background of both operating systems, which can either result in liking one over the other for seemingly small reasons, like memory management, 8-bit boot vs. 16-bit boot, UNIX compliancy for OS X, or a larger availability of software and games on Windows. Depending on personal preference and interest, both platforms offer rich environments.

[Ailurus]

It would also be worth checking with your college to find out what brands they service on-campus. I know for me, being able to just bring my laptop down to the IT staff to have them figure out what's wrong and repair it on site is a LOT more convenient than going through the usual repair methods.

[ryzouken]

Scorp covered a good deal of what's involved, but I'd like to also mention two other points:

Viruses: no, I'm not going to claim that Macs have 0 viruses to worry about. That's a lie. What I will say is the number of viruses you need to watch for is infinitely smaller.

Tech Support: Apple's Genius Bar is simply amazing, as far as tech support goes. Free tech support? Even after your warranty is expired? About the only thing I have to worry about paying for is parts after my warranty is up, and that's a comfort I won't find in PC land.

Maybe a windows machine works better for Top_Hat right now; all I know is everyone whose windows machine I've repaired in the last year has switched to Mac.

[Lord Seth]

As a general rule of thumb, you can take what a company says about battery life and get an expected actual battery life of between 1/2 and 3/4 of that.I'm aware of that and explicitly mentioned that the "battery life" they list is what you'll get if you're doing absolutely nothing on the computer and set the monitor to the lowest brightness setting. My point was that the battery life was listed as lower for the 15". While for both the 13" and 15" the battery life you actually will get will be less than the battery life listed, it seems to me that it'll still equate to the 13" having a longer battery life than the 15".
Yeah, you can't really trust what the company says about battery life. I always look for 3rd party reviews where they run firefox/word/normal programs until it dies and use that more realistic number. In any case, with that little of an improvement in battery life I don't think that the 13" is the best option.See above for my note about what they say about battery life, but how is the 13" not preferable, then? As I noted: Ultimately, the only difference is going to be screen size (any difference in disk space can be changed by just buying extra), and unless you have a reason to want the bigger one, you'll be saving money by picking the smaller (and lighter!) one. That's why I recommended the 13" over the 15". Even ignoring the possibly lower batter life, it's cheaper, it's lighter, and it's pretty much the same in terms of specs outside of the screen size. If you don't have a big reason to want a bigger screen, why not get the 13" over the 15" if you're going to get a MacBook Pro?

[Scorpionica]

Difference between 13" and 15" lies in the IGP and GPU; 15" has both, 13" only the IGP. There may be an additional FW800 port available as well.

Addendum: I apologize for the mistake that crept in the previous post, since the resolution between the 13" MBP and the 16" does differ; 1366 x 768 for the 16" models against 1280 x 800. PPI is still skewed in the MBPs favor.

[Lord Seth]

Difference between 13" and 15" lies in the IGP and GPU; 15" has both, 13" only the IGP.That was something I forgot to mention in my most recent post, the graphics. What I'm saying is that unless you really want the better graphics and larger screen, there's not much of a reason to pay extra money for the same specs.


There may be an additional FW800 port available as well.No, there isn't. It's monstrously stupid there isn't an additional one even on the 17", but there isn't.

[Top_Hat]

How about 1000$ Asus (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834220696)?

Intel Core i7 (4x cores)
4GB Memory
320GB hard drive (fast, 7200)
ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5730 1 GB (strong card)
DVD
USB 3.0 (if you care to be future-proof).


Of the windows computers mentioned so far, this is the one that seems the best. My friendly neighborhood tech support is fond of Asus and everything about the computer that can be determined by the spec seems good except for this: HDD RPM 5400rpm. Is there a model that has the faster 7200rpm hard drive? More importantly, is there a way that I can search for such a model? This whole process would be much easier if I knew of a way to search by processor and all that other wonderful stuff. How do you guys/gals keep track everything?

[Gralamin]

Of the windows computers mentioned so far, this is the one that seems the best. My friendly neighborhood tech support is fond of Asus and everything about the computer that can be determined by the spec seems good except for this: HDD RPM 5400rpm. Is there a model that has the faster 7200rpm hard drive? More importantly, is there a way that I can search for such a model? This whole process would be much easier if I knew of a way to search by processor and all that other wonderful stuff. How do you guys/gals keep track everything?

The specific one you quoted (the N61JQ-X1) Has a 7200rpm hard drive.

[Imposter]

I've got to disagree. While Thinkpads are still wonderfully designed and a pleasure to use, my R61 died after about 18 months (dead GPU). I hear they're also adding a bit more crapware of late. Personally I get the feeling that Lenovo is taking the brand a bit downhill, but maybe I'm just biased by my personal experience with them.

Interesting. I'm basing my comments on my old T42, which is why I mentioned that I couldn't speak for the new boxes. Anyway, my thinkpad is about as indestructible as I have any right to expect it to be, even if that doesn't make the comment any more relevant to the topic at hand.

[Top_Hat]

The specific one you quoted (the N61JQ-X1) Has a 7200rpm hard drive.

D'oh! I'm getting the cheaper Asus and the Lenovo confused. This makes my decision much easier. I think I will buy a laptop within a week, and I am leaning towards the ASUS N61JQ-X1. Thanks to everyone who has posted; you have made this process much more pain free.

[Darth Mario]

As a mac gamer myself, let me put in my 2 cents. If you're parents are buying, there's really no good reason NOT to go Mac—simply install Windows on it if you need it for specific games.

I'm not going to go into any zealotry over the merits of the Mac operating system, but rather I will just state this. Apple support is godly. It has been consistently rated the best by Consumer Reports for years and years running for speed, helpfulness and quality of repair. Sure, those specs on that Asus laptop look great, but if you read through the reviews on Newegg, there has been consistent trouble with Asus's tech support.

Of course, the story changes if your college has its own support staff, but if there's a local Apple store, I would strongly recommend the Macbook Pro your parents have offered.

[Triaxx]

And if there's a more ringing endorsement for Windows than that I don't know anything about the quality of the support because I haven't needed it, I don't know of one.

[ryzouken]

Ah, the old "I haven't had any problems so there must not be any!" argument.

Yes, Windows 7 is fairly solid, as far as systems go. But hardware, all hardware has a date practically printed on it (called the MTF for those keeping score) that guarantees a point at which it will fail. When that time comes, if the OP, or whoever, doesn't know enough about computers to isolate, diagnose, and repair or replace the failed component, tech support becomes critical.

I would still buy a mac over any other brand of computer currently available to a consumer, primarily due to the Genius Bar and OSX environment.

[Triaxx]

I didn't say that I haven't had problems. I said that I haven't needed the support because I haven't run into a problem I couldn't fix.

And OSX SUCKS. Horribly. And I have used it heavily. Supposedly uncrashable it simply freezes the computer into unusability until you go power cord diving.

[Ogremindes]

And OSX SUCKS. Horribly. And I have used it heavily. Supposedly uncrashable it simply freezes the computer into unusability until you go power cord diving.

I don't think you're using the same OSX that I am.

[Lord Seth]

I don't think you're using the same OSX that I am.I'll agree with this, and what the heck is "power cord diving"?

[factotum]

I assume he means unplugging the power cord as a last desperate measure to get the machine to shut down.

[Triaxx]

By power cord diving I refer to fishing around behind the machine to trace the cord to the source because it's not labeled properly, and does not unplug at the machine end and further has no I/O switch built into the power supply.

All because the Operating System has decided to terminally freeze, in such a manner that the power button also refuses to operate, and that it lacks a non-software reset button.

I will admit that the machines I was using were a bit older, but they were supposed to be fully capable of running the OS.

[Emlyn]

Of the windows computers mentioned so far, this is the one that seems the best. My friendly neighborhood tech support is fond of Asus and everything about the computer that can be determined by the spec seems good except for this: HDD RPM 5400rpm. Is there a model that has the faster 7200rpm hard drive? More importantly, is there a way that I can search for such a model? This whole process would be much easier if I knew of a way to search by processor and all that other wonderful stuff. How do you guys/gals keep track everything?

I have the $1200 version of this laptop, which does ahve the 7200rpm and a slightly better graphics card and 17" screen. You can not go wrong with either, as these laptops are the cheapest you can get for nearly the best hardware in a laptop.

[Lord Seth]

All because the Operating System has decided to terminally freeze, in such a manner that the power button also refuses to operate, and that it lacks a non-software reset button.You know that all you have to do is hold down the power button for a few seconds to force the computer to shut down, right?

Haven't had any real problems with OS X crashing either. Yeah, it'll do that every once in a while (like any operating system), but the only times it ever does it constantly is when there's a hardware program (like the logic board needing a replacement), which isn't the fault of the OS.

[ryzouken]

The only time I've run into my OSX hanging is when I do something blatantly dumb, like attempting to copy a program into a text document (mis-click!). Even in this instance, I just had to right click on the appropriate application on my taskbar, wait a minute or two for the processor to catch up to my demand, and click force quit.

And yeah, that power button works. Even has the same functionality on Windows systems. If you're yanking the power cord repeatedly, then I pity your system, it likely doesn't deserve that degree of abuse... :smallfrown:

[Triaxx]

Yes, I know how that works, but I've sat there and held it for a good five minutes, waiting for something to occur and it just sat there.

And at least once, I did nothing more than try and change tools in Photoshop, and it froze solid on me.

So I laugh at your claims of stability.

[Ogremindes]

Yes, I know how that works, but I've sat there and held it for a good five minutes, waiting for something to occur and it just sat there.

And at least once, I did nothing more than try and change tools in Photoshop, and it froze solid on me.

So I laugh at your claims of stability.

That function of the power button isn't handled by the OS. So yeah, broken hardware.

Seriously, OSX is freakin' UNIX. It's stable.

[Eldan]

Interesting. I'm basing my comments on my old T42, which is why I mentioned that I couldn't speak for the new boxes. Anyway, my thinkpad is about as indestructible as I have any right to expect it to be, even if that doesn't make the comment any more relevant to the topic at hand.

I agree with that sentiment. We got Thinkpads (I have a T60 something, not with me right now) at half cost from our university. Mine's four years old now, is still able to run newish games (Fallout 3, Team Fortress 2) and has never had any defect.

They are very expensive, though.

[Stabber]

HP's envys are great. High performance, sleek, small, and portable. Around 1,099 dollars.