New D20 RPG

[Drolyt]

A while back I posted some plans to do one of those D&D 3.9567x^pi things, but I've decided not to. Too many people are trying to do that. In fact it's fine if nobody remembers my post :smallsmile:. Instead I've been thinking that I want to do my own generic fantasy system. It will use the d20 roll over mechanic as the primary decision maker (along with the d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, and percentile dice for determining results, just like D&D) along with the d20 class and level system (with some tweaks), but I'm starting from scratch rather than using D&D 3rd Edition as a base to improve upon. Here follows some features and core mechanics the system will have (subject to change):
* To decide whether you succeed at an action you roll a d20 just like in D&D.
* Other dice may determine the exact results of those actions.
* AC works like in D&D, with a few exceptions. Each class has a base AC just like the have based saving throws (similar to the Unearthed Arcana variant). There is no such thing as a touch AC since that is what Reflex Saves are for. Finally players roll their AC, though NPCs don't.
* Saving Throws work like in D&D except that NPCs don't roll saves (they use 10 + Modifier). Instead when a player uses a special ability that targets a save they make an attack roll, though not necessarily using Base Attack Bonus (mages, for example, would use caster level instead).
* All classes have a Base Attack Bonus, though number of attacks per turn doesn't automatically increase.
* The system is setting independent. Supernatural elements are assumed, but it doesn't matter whether the game is set in a medieval fantasy setting or the modern day with a masquerade or even in space. Sci Fi won't be a core part, but I may reconsider that later.
* Skills work like in D&D, with a few differences. You don't get 4x as many points as normal at 1st level. Skills will be much weaker than in D&D, primarily existing to show non-combat abilities like cooking, crafting, or computer skills. Because of this there is no longer a limit based on level of how many points you can have in one skill.
* Each race other than human has it's own class and can take no other classes (besides prestige classes). Humans are the only race with multiple classes. The only races that can multiclass are humans and hybrids such as half-elves and dhampyrs (half-vampires). Sometimes this rule can be broken as a result of a race change (eg a Human Mage is bitten by a Vampire)
* Related to the above there is more versatility within classes compared to D&D (two characters of different races/classes can be very similar in capabilities, differing primarily in concept). Each class has talents you can choose at every even level (kind of like d20 modern) and you get a feat every odd numbered level (feats are now overwhelmingly class independent, since there are already talents). Many classes also have different "subclasses" or "specialties" (like specialist Wizards) to further determine how you want to play/what abilities you want to have (in some sense this will replace having multiple classes for non-humans, all members of a given race will have given abilities but each will have specific abilities to differentiate them). To represent their versatility humans gain an extra feat and talent at 1st level and an extra skill point every level.
* An exception to the above is the commoner class, which is available to all races and has no supernatural abilities. Despite the name everyone from farmers to nobles to soldiers will use the class. Higher levels in the class don't grant hit points, saves, AC, or attack bonus, but does offer lots of skill points.
* Examples of human classes planned are mages (derive magical powers from the realization that the mind controls reality and that the laws of physics themselves are a sort of consensus reality), clerics (derive magical powers from strong faith), and hunters (badass normals who combat supernatural threats with special weapons). Examples of races planned include the traditional fantasy races, and also fey, vampires, werewolves (and other lycanthropes), dragons, and others.
* Pretty much all races have the ability to pass as human, to allow for the masquerade (only in settings that use that).
* A spell system similar to that used in D&D (though probably not Vancian) will be used but built from scratch. Most likely most classes/races will select spells ala the sorcerer of D&D 3rd edition instead of having class spell list, allowing for ultimate customization of supernatural abilities.
*Magic Items cannot be bought, being more like the artifacts of D&D. They either tie into the story or are bought with feats or class abilities (Hunters use magic items most heavily, but their devices are anti supernatural and thus only usable by normals).
*Ability Scores are as in D&D.

Other stuff. My next step will be to actually make one of the races/classes.

[Milskidasith]

So your project is to totally overhaul D&D?

Hopefully this works out well, but... yeah, there have been dozens of these implemented, and the only two I've seen make any significant progress have been D20r (which has its own problems) and D20 Legend (also with its own problems, mostly not enough interest, which is frustrating since I have helped at least somewhat on it).

[Drolyt]

So your project is to totally overhaul D&D?

No/kinda. That was the original goal, but now I'm just taking the d20 system and making a new fantasy rpg with it. It will probably borrow some stuff from D&D, but I've come to the conclusion that overhauling D&D like D20r is trying to do is too much flipping work since it carries over all the problems of D&D. Starting fresh is a better idea methinks.

[Zeta Kai]

Skills work like in D&D, with a few differences. You don't get 4x as many points as normal at 1st level. Skills will be much weaker than in D&D, primarily existing to show non-combat abilities like cooking, crafting, or computer skills. Because of this there is no longer a limit based on level of how many points you can have in one skill.

So, you want the skills to be weaker, but your removing one of the very few limitations on skills? :smallconfused:


Each race other than human has it's own class and can take no other classes (besides prestige classes). Humans are the only race with multiple classes. The only races that can multiclass are humans and hybrids such as half-elves and dhampyrs (half-vampires). Sometimes this rule can be broken as a result of a race change (eg a Human Mage is bitten by a Vampire)

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm sorry, but seriously? You wanna go back to the bad old days of demihumans? That had to be one of the worst things about old-school D&D, something that I've heard absolutely no one wist for, & you're trying to dig this nasty corpse back up? Who would play a non-human? And how do you justify that? So now an elf that runs the general store has the same class (Elf) as the one who joins the party on an adventure? How do you represent a nation, a city, or even a tiny village with an entire population that was created with a racial clone stamp?

Your attempt to make your own Drolyt20 is ambitious, even if it sounds more like a thin folder full of house rules rather than a total conversion project. But some of your basic premises are not only strange, they are downright distasteful. :smallyuk:

[Drolyt]

So, you want the skills to be weaker, but your removing one of the very few limitations on skills? :smallconfused
The skills will be weaker in that they have very few uses. Many classes were built around skills in D&D, and UMD could bump a class up a tier. In my system skills will all be completely mundane in a system that focuses on supernatural combat and intrigue. In addition to no UMD, there will be no social skills and stealth/awareness will have nothing to do with skills. Being good with computers or an excellent chef isn't the same as what is essentially non-magical mind-control/invisibility. Another way of looking at it is that all skills are now profession skills.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm sorry, but seriously? You wanna go back to the bad old days of demihumans? That had to be one of the worst things about old-school D&D, something that I've heard absolutely no one wist for, & you're trying to dig this nasty corpse back up? Who would play a non-human? And how do you justify that? So now an elf that runs the general store has the same class (Elf) as the one who joins the party on an adventure? How do you represent a nation, a city, or even a tiny village with an entire population that was created with a racial clone stamp?
All valid criticisms, if this were a D&D clone. A few points: Although I forget to mention it, I'm planning a commoner class that is semi-universal (obviously some races like vampires and dragons won't need to use it) that offers zero supernatural abilities but should work well for modeling NPCs, including experts in various (mundane) fields, including mundane combat. Also as I said there won't be so many class specific abilities, so customization within classes will be much greater. I do have reasoning behind this: a) to allow powerful races like vampires and dragons by making them classes and b) to limit powergaming related to multiclassing. I have provided enough exceptions to this rule I think to avoid creative sterility in character concept.

Your attempt to make your own Drolyt20 is ambitious, even if it sounds more like a thin folder full of house rules rather than a total conversion project. But some of your basic premises are not only strange, they are downright distasteful. :smallyuk:
Now now, don't pass judgment so soon. Distasteful? There are still some who prefer having racial classes. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but so am I. :smallsmile:

[lesser_minion]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm sorry, but seriously? You wanna go back to the bad old days of demihumans? That had to be one of the worst things about old-school D&D, something that I've heard absolutely no one wist for, & you're trying to dig this nasty corpse back up? Who would play a non-human? And how do you justify that?

This kind of thing has become the de facto standard outside of D&D, and it works just fine as long as more than ten minutes of thought is put into each splat available to a character.

I would say that there are fewer people who want to play a Fiend Caste Lunar than there are people who miss Elf as a distinct class.


To represent their versatility humans gain an extra feat and talent at 1st level and an extra skill point every level.

Why do this? It's completely unnecessary if you're already doing races-as-classes.

[Drolyt]

Why do this? It's completely unnecessary if you're already doing races-as-classes.
It will make more sense when the classes come out. Dragons, fey lords, vampires, were-creatures, etc. will all be tremendously more powerful than humans (for example, both vampires and were-creatures tend to have fast healing/regeneration, and humans don't), so to compensate humans will be weak but skilled, which is well represented by getting a bonus feat and talent. The other reason is that I plan races like dhampyr and half-elf, which will allow you to multiclass between human classes and (respectively) the vampire or elf class. Given that humans need some reason to actually exist, since dhampyrs and half-elves and half-whatevers will always be superior physically, so humans will receive the same powerful bonus feat as in D&D plus a bonus talent.

Edit: Part of the inspiration for this system is world of darkness, I want the system to work well in the modern day as a masquerade as well as in a medieval fantasy setting. I don't want it to be angsty and depressing like wod, though obviously people could play it that way.

Edit 2: I think I'll post the Vampire race/class tonight. That should give people an idea of what I am going for.

[elpollo]

Related to the above there is more versatility within classes compared to D&D (two characters of different races/classes can be very similar in capabilities, differing primarily in concept)

How is this more versatility? If everything is the same mechanically and it's only concepts that differ then this is surely less versatile, no?



In my system skills will all be completely mundane in a system that focuses on supernatural combat and intrigue. In addition to no UMD, there will be no social skills and stealth/awareness will have nothing to do with skills. Being good with computers or an excellent chef isn't the same as what is essentially non-magical mind-control/invisibility. Another way of looking at it is that all skills are now profession skills.

How is hiding not mundane? I've done it as a child - I've also looked for things as a child (for 2 points, see if you can guess one of the games I played as a child). Have you ever had a soldier in camouflage hide from you? I have. It's damn hard to find them, and as far as I'm aware they had no magic.



I'm planning a commoner class that is semi-universal (obviously some races like vampires and dragons won't need to use it)

So if you've got one class accessable to everyone, why not all of them? Can vampires not be mages (actually, if I was doing a game I'd say no and have them be the good old fashioned bloodthirsty monsters rather than suave sparkling whiners, but still)? Can dwarves not decide that they want to eschew the axe and go thieving instead? It doesn't make sense from any standpoint that an entire race would have the same abilities when humanity can do whatever it wants. You can argue that "Oh, talents allow customisation", but if they allow that degree of customisation (which I'm sure they don't) then why do you have classes at all?



for example, both vampires and were-creatures tend to have fast healing/regeneration, and humans don't), so to compensate humans will be weak but skilled, which is well represented by getting a bonus feat and talent

How is a feat balanced to fast healing? In a fight between a human fighter and a vampire fighter, the human fighter might have a slight edge on initiative, or do 2 extra points of damage or whatever, but the vampire has extra strength, fast healing, possibly the ability to turn into a wolf, etc. Is it somehow balanced because humans are better at cooking? What are they gonna do, sauté themselves before the fight?



Edit: Part of the inspiration for this system is world of darkness, I want the system to work well in the modern day as a masquerade as well as in a medieval fantasy setting. I don't want it to be angsty and depressing like wod, though obviously people could play it that way.

Nothing about the World of Darkness is inherently angsty. If you've been playing that way blame the GM, not the game.

I also don't see any World of Darkness influences in your game, besides the fact that you want to be able to run World of Darkness games with it. I can want to run Call of Cthulhu with high level D&D - doesn't mean it's gonna work.


edit - oh, also: from scratch (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/start-from-scratch.html). Using an existing system as a base is not from scratch, even if you say you're ignoring one iteration of it.

[Drolyt]

First off, I am open to new ideas, everything from the first post is subject to change.

How is this more versatility? If everything is the same mechanically and it's only concepts that differ then this is surely less versatile, no?
Not the same mechanically, what I mean is if you want a vampire that can cast spells you can have it, he just won't have the mage class. A vampire spellcaster will be different mechanically than a human mage, but both will be able to achieve the desired result, such as casting fireball spells. For an example I'm working on a system where vampires have to drink blood to survive. They have a store of blood in their bodies, which, when it runs out, they either die immediately or lose their powers and start dying but have time to try and save themselves (haven't decided). Vampire spellcasters use this store of blood to cast their spells (kind of like spell points); this gives a very real risk to over using your spells. Human mages will use a much different system. Overall human mages will be better at spellcasting, but vampires make up for this by being much more durable and less squishy than humans. The point is even though vampires can only take the vampire class, they can still fulfill many different roles depending on build.

How is hiding not mundane? I've done it as a child - I've also looked for things as a child (for 2 points, see if you can guess one of the games I played as a child). Have you ever had a soldier in camouflage hide from you? I have. It's damn hard to find them, and as far as I'm aware they had no magic.
The best camouflage in the world is nothing compared to a high level rogue. With the right classes and feats a high level D&D character can hide from you while you are right in front of them without using any magic. Besides that most supernatural creatures have means of finding you when you are hiding, so mundane hiding will be more or less useless in my system.

So if you've got one class accessable to everyone, why not all of them? Can vampires not be mages (actually, if I was doing a game I'd say no and have them be the good old fashioned bloodthirsty monsters rather than suave sparkling whiners, but still)? Can dwarves not decide that they want to eschew the axe and go thieving instead? It doesn't make sense from any standpoint that an entire race would have the same abilities when humanity can do whatever it wants. You can argue that "Oh, talents allow customisation", but if they allow that degree of customisation (which I'm sure they don't) then why do you have classes at all?
I might have it so relatively human races like elves and dwarves take human classes rather than having their own racial classes. The racial classes thing is really meant to allow people to play things like vampires and dragons that have really powerful racial abilities and don't have the same versatility as humans.

How is a feat balanced to fast healing? In a fight between a human fighter and a vampire fighter, the human fighter might have a slight edge on initiative, or do 2 extra points of damage or whatever, but the vampire has extra strength, fast healing, possibly the ability to turn into a wolf, etc. Is it somehow balanced because humans are better at cooking? What are they gonna do, sauté themselves before the fight?
Ok, fair point, that was a stupid example on my part. I just really like the idea of humans being weaker (physically, not in terms of balance) than, say, dragons, but more skilled and versatile.

Nothing about the World of Darkness is inherently angsty. If you've been playing that way blame the GM, not the game.
The fluff is extremely angsty. Admittedly no one I know plays it that way, so you might have a point.

I also don't see any World of Darkness influences in your game, besides the fact that you want to be able to run World of Darkness games with it. I can want to run Call of Cthulhu with high level D&D - doesn't mean it's gonna work.
Well, yeah, the big influence is I am trying to build a system that will work better than D&D in that kind of setting. Besides that it is influencing some of my races/classes, like vampire and werewolf, though I can see why that wouldn't be obvious from what I've posted so far.
Edit: Also I'm stealing the idea from the old mage game where everything is influenced by belief. Admittedly that's not where that idea originates, but it is my inspiration in this case.

edit - oh, also: from scratch (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/start-from-scratch.html). Using an existing system as a base is not from scratch, even if you say you're ignoring one iteration of it.
True, it isn't completely from scratch, it is using the d20 system (why create new mechanics when rolling a d20 is so easy?) and will be heavily influenced by existing games. It is not a revision of D&D however, everything will be new(ish).

[elpollo]

First off, I am open to new ideas, everything from the first post is subject to change.

That's always good.



For an example I'm working on a system where vampires have to drink blood to survive. They have a store of blood in their bodies, which, when it runs out, they either die immediately or lose their powers and start dying but have time to try and save themselves (haven't decided). Vampire spellcasters use this store of blood to cast their spells (kind of like spell points); this gives a very real risk to over using your spells. Human mages will use a much different system. Overall human mages will be better at spellcasting, but vampires make up for this by being much more durable and less squishy than humans. The point is even though vampires can only take the vampire class, they can still fulfill many different roles depending on build.

Is it worth it? You are basically saying you're making a generic system, rather than a game focused on vampires, so making a whole new magic system just for vampires seems odd. Of course, if you expand it to a spell pool system and have various mechanics for getting them back (resting, feeding on something, praying) then it's all applicable on a much wider range of characters.



I might have it so relatively human races like elves and dwarves take human classes rather than having their own racial classes. The racial classes thing is really meant to allow people to play things like vampires and dragons that have really powerful racial abilities and don't have the same versatility as humans.

Where do you draw the line, though? Also, 3.X has the Savage Species rules (if you haven't seen them) where races are made into classes up until you buy off all their stuff. After that you can become whatever class you want. I prefer that approach, although would take it a bit further and say you don't have to take all of the levels right away if you do not wish to (or indeed at all).



Ok, fair point, that was a stupid example on my part. I just really like the idea of humans being weaker (physically, not in terms of balance) than, say, dragons, but more skilled and versatile.

The problem is this usually ends up with them just being weaker mechanically. It's all very well saying humans are more skilled, but at the end of the day one player will be ripping through hordes of enemies and another will be cooking the victory supper.



The fluff is extremely angsty. Admittedly no one I know plays it that way, so you might have a point.

Really? I never really got that vibe from it. Mind you, I never played the oWoD, only the new, so maybe you're talking about that. Plus, as you say, few people actually play angsty games.



Also, I used the word ultramonolitharus. It made sense in the context, but I ended up editing the point out. Still, new class. Level 5 ultramonolitharus, baby.

[Drolyt]

Is it worth it? You are basically saying you're making a generic system, rather than a game focused on vampires, so making a whole new magic system just for vampires seems odd. Of course, if you expand it to a spell pool system and have various mechanics for getting them back (resting, feeding on something, praying) then it's all applicable on a much wider range of characters.
Well, all spellcasting classes will draw on the same spells, just like D&D, but different classes will use them differently. Also the vampires blood point pool will be used for other powers too. In the end it will probably work like you are saying though, everyone will have their own "points" to power their special abilities, it will just be how they get them that is different. Clerics probably have to pray for more points for example.

Where do you draw the line, though? Also, 3.X has the Savage Species rules (if you haven't seen them) where races are made into classes up until you buy off all their stuff. After that you can become whatever class you want. I prefer that approach, although would take it a bit further and say you don't have to take all of the levels right away if you do not wish to (or indeed at all).
While, I was going to draw the line at humans. Also while savage species was definitely an improvement monster PCs in D&D still don't generally work very well. I think having monster classes that are simply versatile enough to fulfill many different roles is better.

The problem is this usually ends up with them just being weaker mechanically. It's all very well saying humans are more skilled, but at the end of the day one player will be ripping through hordes of enemies and another will be cooking the victory supper.
I'll deal with that problem when I get to it.

Really? I never really got that vibe from it. Mind you, I never played the oWoD, only the new, so maybe you're talking about that. Plus, as you say, few people actually play angsty games.
Well, maybe I'm the one misreading it.

Also, I used the word ultramonolitharus. It made sense in the context, but I ended up editing the point out. Still, new class. Level 5 ultramonolitharus, baby.
What?