In a Stand-Up Fight, Who Would Win?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Watching Belkar and Roy practicing with wooden weapons makes me wonder:

In an Arena Fight, without any magic items, who is more likely to win between Belkar and Enor?

Or how about Belkar and Roy?

Belkar was able to go through hundreds of hobgoblin mooks using both his higher levels and his magic items, but now he's up against someone or possibly several someones, all closer to his own level, and all "equally" armed.

Any thoughts? The year is almost up, and I don't see Belkar dying in his bed. I saw him dying in someone else's bed, but never his own...

[Ancalagon]

In an Arena Fight, without any magic items, who is more likely to win between Belkar and Enor?

Well, Belkar might still have his ring. ;)

[LuPuWei]

Well, Belkar might still have his ring. ;)

And so, like Mario, shall he jump upon and squish you. However seriously, how does weaponlessness work in D&D?

Enor had a lightning attack- if he's allowed that, he's probably champion already!

On the other hand the Romans gave their gladiators some equipment, so weapon specializations may still mean something...

[Dr.Epic]

In an Arena Fight, without any magic items, who is more likely to win between Belkar and Enor?

You're kidding right? Belkar - who has a strength and size disadvantage when it comes to brute combat who is in fact trying to fill that role - fighting someone who also fits that role but whose parents where a dragon and an ogre. Yeah, it's real obvious who's winning this fight.

[Kareasint]

They will have weapons. It's more entertaining that way.

[Dr.Epic]

Well, Belkar might still have his ring. ;)

The precious?

[Lord Loss]

Between Roy and Belkar? My Money's on Belkar.

Between Belkar and Enor? Heck if I know.

[Dr.Epic]

Between Roy and Belkar? My Money's on Belkar.

Between Belkar and Enor? Heck if I know.

How is this such a mystery? Belkar has several disadvantages against his tank build and both Roy and Enor don't (the latter probably has a crap load of pluses to it in fact).

[blueblade]

Roy > Enor ??? Belkar

Based on nothing at all. For those loving Enor, don't forget we have no idea of class levels. We know he failed a grapple with Roy pretty easily (that's what I'm calling it anyway). He beat a poorly prepared Elan, that's it.

[Tundar]

Unarmed fight could be fun. Mass attack of opportunity!

Unless, of course, someone snuck a level of monk in at some point.

[TheFallenOne]

Belkar would beat Roy. Roy loses all his feats invested in using greatswords unless he gets very lucky and they give him one. Plus, he relies on armor, whereas Belkar doesn't(or at least way less)

Enor would beat Belkar if he's clever enough to use grapple against an opponent two size categories smaller. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) If not, tough call because Belkar in-universe is a ten times better fighter than he should be with his character build.
About the lightning attack, don't forget Belkar has evasion

[Ancalagon]

The precious?

No, the Ring of Jumping. The one he hid where he was fairly sure no one would look... the precioussss is a different campaign...

[Dr.Epic]

No, the Ring of Jumping. The one he hid where he was fairly sure no one would look... the precioussss is a different campaign...

Right. This is the one with the Ming of Power.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Oops! Looks like I wasn't clear enough...

Assume the gladiators have Normal Weapons, and more or less what they would normally use. Belkar with two normal daggers (1d4, + level ajustment damage), Roy with a normal greatsword or sword (2d6 or 1d8, depending + level adjustment) Enor with a morningstar (1d8 + level adjustment, plus his natural weapons (claws, bite, breath)... Just not "Magical."

Also, based on Belkar's height in his training fight against Roy, he might still have that ring... But being stripped down to just a loincloth, I don't think he had time to hide anything else useful. If he did... :smalleek:

Belkar is no tank, but that doesn't mean he can't fight at all. Enor might be muzzled, or mught not (what is more entertaining for the crowd?!?!)

[Gitman00]

Belkar would beat Roy. Roy loses all his feats invested in using greatswords unless he gets very lucky and they give him one. Plus, he relies on armor, whereas Belkar doesn't(or at least way less)

I severely doubt it. Roy is also a good deal stronger than Belkar, and has d10 hit dice vs Belkar's (mostly) d8, and Belkar's weapon - looks like a Small-sized short sword - does 1d4 damage vs. Roy's Medium-sized short sword which does 1d6. 1d8 if it's a longsword. Belkar also only has one weapon, so that negates his TWF feats. Go over to Class and Level Geekery and you'll see just how woefully overmatched Belkar is in this fight.

My thought is, based on simple mechanics, Roy>Enor>Belkar>Gannji.

Why does Roy beat Enor, you ask? Class levels. Enor can only use his breath weapon once per day, and as a half-dragon, half-ogre has a level adjustment of +5. That means Roy gets an extra attack on him each round if they have equal ECL, and an extra 2-5 feats. It'll be close though; Enor also has at least a +10 strength bonus as well as natural armor from his racial templates.

[LuPuWei]

Also the comic has followed the rules of Drama almost as closely as it has the rules of D&D, and in any arena fight, if you happen to be a fan favorite or plot relevant, you will win, no matter how much bigger, faster or more skillful the other guy is.

Belkar may be tiny and weak without his modifiers and weapons, but he is fast- i don't think that had anything to do with mods. That opens up several classic arena match win strategies for him, like the "tire your enemy out until you can deliver the KO" or "keep him busy until someone shouts out his hidden weakness" strategies.

If adhering to D&D rules restricts this, then things look grim, but going by sheer dramatic sense alone, Belkar and Roy are both basically competent enough to win through cunning and/or luck.

[SadisticFishing]

Remember, Roy is also used to wearing much heavier armor than Belkar.

But if the rules applied to Belkar, he wouldn't be able to kill much, except that God of War scene.

[RE:Insanity]

O-Chul would win. There are no questions. Goodbye.

[aivanther]

The one thing Belkar might have to his advantage vs. Roy is that it's pretty likely Belkar's favored enemy is Humans. I can never remember the assumed ECL of the characters, but that +6,8 or whatever to attack/damage might translate out well for the Belkar.

But yeah, it's hard to think that Roy's fighter levels, even if he did sink feats into Weapon Focus/Specialization, wouldn't trump Belkar. More so, Belkar is a tiny shoeless God of War. But Roy has shown that he actually thinks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html) and uses a variety of tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) to circumvent others strengths.

As to Enor...meh, who knows. He's a half-dragon/half-ogre (gross), but who knows his ECL, his feat selections, etc. The dragon breath wouldn't be enough to take down Roy or Belkar, so he'd have to rely upon more than that to win.

[TheFallenOne]

I severely doubt it. Roy is also a good deal stronger than Belkar, and has d10 hit dice vs Belkar's (mostly) d8, and Belkar's weapon - looks like a Small-sized short sword - does 1d4 damage vs. Roy's Medium-sized short sword which does 1d6. 1d8 if it's a longsword. Belkar also only has one weapon, so that negates his TWF feats. Go over to Class and Level Geekery and you'll see just how woefully overmatched Belkar is in this fight.

As I pointed out in the part you conveniently didn't quote, Belkar is a way more competent fighter than he should be judging from his build. I'm very well aware of the Class and Level Geekery(the evidence for Roy wearing medium armor was actually pointed out by me). Belkars build is horrible, yet in-universe he is a sexy shoeless god of war. The rules don't apply to him fully when it comes to combat, just look at the hydra fight and try to figure out how he did that without getting hit once
Plus, I'd say getting two weapons is easier than getting the exact weapon you put feats in. Though Belkar might get trouble with miss-sized weapons

[Fitzclowningham]

Using a greatsword, Roy would most likely have +2 to hit, +4 damage from focus/specialization, on top of his +12 BAB, and at least +5/+5 from strength. He also has Power Attack if he needs it. Altogether, he has at least +19 attack bonus, and pretty decent hp to go with it.

Enor probably has massive STR, really good hp, a bit of natural armor, 4d8 breath weapon, no DEX, and at least a -4 level adjustment. If we assume him to be of an equal CR with Roy and a fighter, he would have +8 BAB, +1/+2 from feats, and +7 or 8 from strength, totalling +16 or 17. He would also have one less attack per round.

All in all, I think they'd be very evenly matched.

[Gitman00]

As I pointed out in the part you conveniently didn't quote, Belkar is a way more competent fighter than he should be judging from his build. I'm very well aware of the Class and Level Geekery(the evidence for Roy wearing medium armor was actually pointed out by me). Belkars build is horrible, yet in-universe he is a sexy shoeless god of war. The rules don't apply to him fully when it comes to combat, just look at the hydra fight and try to figure out how he did that without getting hit once
Plus, I'd say getting two weapons is easier than getting the exact weapon you put feats in. Though Belkar might get trouble with miss-sized weapons

I wasn't quote-mining. I stated in MY post that I was estimating strictly based on mechanics, so I ignored the part of your post that was irrelevant to mechanics. I think mechanics are all we can go on, because trying to predict how the narrative will direct the fight is a fool's errand. Rich can make it go however he wants, as the hydra example and the second Miko fight show, not to mention O-Chul nearly killing a high-level cleric with a single Smite Evil using an improvised weapon. Hell, he even bends spell mechanics when the plot requires it.

We obviously have to suspend disbelief in any fight involving Belkar. But in making a prediction, we can only go on the mechanics of the setting. We can't possibly predict what plot-related events or badassery will occur.

[TheFallenOne]

That's true, I just think you're missing that plot and mechanics aren't all. I'm just saying I see a big difference between Belkar supposed strength judged from his build and how he actually performs in combat. It's like me saying "Elminster is one of the most powerful wizards of Faerun" and you objecting "But I saw his build in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, it sucks." What matters is that he is supposed to be powerful, just like Belkar is supposed to be a very very competent combatant. When it comes to a hypothetical fight and we remove the element of plot, I think in-universe logic trumps the mechanics of their builds we as readers derived from reading the comic.

[Scarlet Knight]

That's true, I just think you're missing that plot and mechanics aren't all. I'm just saying I see a big difference between Belkar supposed strength judged from his build and how he actually performs in combat. It's like me saying "Elminster is one of the most powerful wizards of Faerun" and you objecting "But I saw his build in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, it sucks." What matters is that he is supposed to be powerful, just like Belkar is supposed to be a very very competent combatant. When it comes to a hypothetical fight and we remove the element of plot, I think in-universe logic trumps the mechanics of their builds we as readers derived from reading the comic.

That's an interesting point, comparing stats vs plot. Plot-wise, Belkar is kinda like the Hulk, but as "death's little helper"; the more he kills, the more of a killing machine he becomes! :smalleek:

[Zevox]

Roy would defeat Belkar - his build is simply better suited to melee combat than Belkar's. Heck, Belkar's is pretty sub-par, while Roy's is practically exhibit A in "how to build a simple yet effective fighter."

With Enor, we have no idea. Yes, he's a Half-Dragon Ogre, but we have no idea what level he is. At least with Roy and Belkar we know they're fairly close to each other - with Enor they could be well above him and mop the floor with him easily, or a little above him and beat him despite disadvantages, or around the same level and probably lose due to his racial boosts making him the better warrior at that point.

Zevox

[derfenrirwolv]

You know, i started writing to say that roy would win, but now I'm not sure.

Belkar (assuming 14th level) could very well have taken human as his favored enemy 3 times. He can rage, and has improved 2 weapon fighting from being a ranger.

+1 size +4 strength (when raging, assumes a base 14) -2 from two weapon fighting, +14 from levels

+17 +17 +12 +12 +7 (main, off, second main, second off from Imp. 2 weapon fighting, 3rd attack)

Damage: 1d3 average=1.5 +4 strength +6 human = 11.5 mainhand
1.5 +2 +6 = 9.5 offhand.

the sum of his chance to hit on each attack. If roy's dex is 14 (being generous, considering his other uber stats) , his ac would be 12. Belkar would miss only on a 1 for the first 4 attacks (95% chance to hit) and would need a 5 or higher to hit on his last attack (80% chance to hit)

damage= (.95 * 11.5) + (.95 * 9.5 ) + (.95 *11.5) + (.95 * 9.5) = (.8 * 11.5) = Slightly more than 49.1 damage/round (since calculating criticals into the mess gets annoying) Thats 2-3 Rounds to kill naked Roy. His rage should last longer than the fight.

IF Roy gets a greatsword.

Assuming 14th level

+4 strength +14 levels +2 greater weapon focus= +20 to hit.

attacks +20 +15 +10

Damage (2d6)= 7 + 6 (1.5 strength for 2 hander) +4 (greater weapon spec) = 17

Belkars ac 14 (+3 dex +1 size)

Damage= (17 *.95) + (17 *.95) + (17*.85) =46.7 damage/ round. (you might be able to eek out more with a power attack but i doubt it) Its the same 2-3 rounds to kill belkar.

edit: power attacking at -3 so the first two hits still only miss on a natural one yeilds 55.6 damage per round.



Roy could use his tactical knowledge to hit belkar with a power attack and take the attack of opportunity to move away , but 1) i haven't seen roy DO anything that tactical yet (his ability in that regard is largely informed) That plan (if viable) is shot to hell if belkar has pounce like he seems to.


So, if they stand and whack at each other, Roy will probably take belkar down past his normal HP total. Belkar will kill Roy, and then keel over dead when the extra HP from his Rage go away. Roy will be ressurected fullfilling his legal requirement and belkar will be left dead fulfilling his prophecy.

[fwiffo]

I say Belkar wins this hands down. Let's face it, while Roy's comedy skills tend to be more along the lines of exasperated straight man, Belkar is well known for his one-liners. It's gonna be no contest. Belkar will kill, and Roy will bomb.

What??! Well, the topic said "In a stand-up fight, who would win". Belkar is a much better standup. Not that type of stand-up fight? Ohh... <Emily Litella mode> Never mind!

[LuPuWei]

I say Belkar wins this hands down. Let's face it, while Roy's comedy skills tend to be more along the lines of exasperated straight man, Belkar is well known for his one-lines. It's gonna be no contest. Belkar will kill, and Roy will bomb.

What??! Well, the topic said "In a stand-up fight, who would win". Belkar is a much better standup. What, you mean it is not that type of stand-up fight? Ohh... <Emily Litella mode> Never mind!

Oh wait, you're right- even Gannji wouldn't stand a chance then...

[TheFallenOne]

I say Belkar wins this hands down. Let's face it, while Roy's comedy skills tend to be more along the lines of exasperated straight man, Belkar is well known for his one-lines. It's gonna be no contest. Belkar will kill, and Roy will bomb.

What??! Well, the topic said "In a stand-up fight, who would win". Belkar is a much better standup. What, you mean it is not that type of stand-up fight? Ohh... <Emily Litella mode> Never mind!

I see at least one fatality in the audience, though I expect his death to be hilarious and followed by a great punchline

[brilliantlight]

Roy would defeat Belkar - his build is simply better suited to melee combat than Belkar's. Heck, Belkar's is pretty sub-par, while Roy's is practically exhibit A in "how to build a simple yet effective fighter."

With Enor, we have no idea. Yes, he's a Half-Dragon Ogre, but we have no idea what level he is. At least with Roy and Belkar we know they're fairly close to each other - with Enor they could be well above him and mop the floor with him easily, or a little above him and beat him despite disadvantages, or around the same level and probably lose due to his racial boosts making him the better warrior at that point.

Zevox

Exactly!!! For all we know Enor has only one class level (I doubt it, but still) which would make him ECL 6, which Belkar or Roy would wipe the floor with. Both are high level now and that is far more important then racial boost on figuring how tough Enor is in D&D. Without knowing Enor's class levels we don't have a single clue on how tough he really is.

In a fight without armor (Like here) I think Belkar beats Roy. After all :belkar: is the sexy, shoeless god of war!

[Marnath]

I don't have much to add to the discussion besides the fact that enor being more powerful doesn't neccessarily make him a better warrior, tactics and speed are big too. I think both belkar and roy have a chance to kill him with only mundane gear, although it would only take one lucky strike to ruin belkar's day :smalltongue:

[brilliantlight]

Why? :belkar: is a high level ranger/barbarian. It is going to take far more than one lucky hit to take him down.

[Marnath]

Why? :belkar: is a high level ranger/barbarian. It is going to take far more than one lucky hit to take him down.

My idea was that the injury would slow him down, negating his speed advantage...but then i remembered there aren't really rules for that :smallredface: oops :smalltongue:

[Bongos]

I don't think Belkar is really that tough, what has he ever done but take out anything but low level mooks. And that Loony Toons move with the stupid lead shield vs. Miko doesn't count.

Roy would destroy Belkar nine ways from Sunday.

[brilliantlight]

I don't think Belkar is really that tough, what has he ever done but take out anything but low level mooks.

Taking down hydras and eyes of fear and flame single handed come to mind.

[Bongos]

yeah, the hydra maybe, thee eye of fear and flame kinda took out itself.

[TheFallenOne]

not to mention easily holding his ground against an equal-level rogue and a rogue with at least four more levels

and say about taking out mooks what you want, the kill count Belkar racked up in Azure city is damn impressive

[Doug Lampert]

IF Roy gets a greatsword.

Assuming 14th level

+4 strength +14 levels +2 greater weapon focus= +20 to hit.

attacks +20 +15 +10

Damage (2d6)= 7 + 6 (1.5 strength for 2 hander) +4 (greater weapon spec) = 17

Belkars ac 14 (+3 dex +1 size)

Damage= (17 *.95) + (17 *.95) + (17*.85) =46.7 damage/ round. (you might be able to eek out more with a power attack but i doubt it) Its the same 2-3 rounds to kill belkar.

edit: power attacking at -3 so the first two hits still only miss on a natural one yeilds 55.6 damage per round.


If unarmored and with your assumed AC values then Roy should power attack for 8 and average 69.3 (83.6 if crits are included and Roy has improved crit like any other core only fighter of his level, there just aren't that many decent fighter feats in core). Any number from 6-12 does more than 60 DPR without counting crits.

He can't power attack for more than 12, but he'd need to get up to 16 prior to power attacking being worse than just attacking. (Usually big power attack is a bad idea, usually you have massive static boosts to damage by Roy's level and your opponents have high AC, niether of these is true in this case, if that fancy fighter college was good for anything it should tell Roy to power attack for 8 or so, and to go on up to power attacking for 11 or so if not allowed a full attack by something.

Belkar gets up to 51.37 from crits.

So Roy gets over 60% more damage/round & he gets more HP.

Additionally: Why are we assuming the FIGHTS will be unarmored? Roman gladiators were given quite good armor over the vitals and sword arm to reduce the chance of random fatalities and make the fights last longer/be more entertaining.

When being introduced to the trainer OF COURSE they don't have real weapons and armor, but assuming no armor for the fight because they don't have any now is like assuming no swords for the fight because they've got wooden practice blades now.

Roy has more HP and is doing much more damage. He should win fairly easily.

[calar]

Gotta be Roy. Rangers just aren't designed to stand toe to toe with a combat fighter, which leaves Belkar's non-existent ranger spells to make up the difference.

[derfenrirwolv]

[QUOTE=Doug Lampert;9032692]If unarmored and with your assumed AC values then Roy should power attack for 8 and average 69.3 (83.6 if crits are included and Roy has improved crit like any other core only fighter of his level, there just aren't that many decent fighter feats in core) Any number from 6-12 does more than 60 DPR without counting crits.

ahh .. forgot improved crit.

Besides muscling it through on trial and error do you have a mechanism for calculating that? The numbers LOOK right, just wondering if there's some way to plot it without spending a lot of time on excel.

i should have dropped belkars AC by 2 more, from raging.



So Roy gets over 60% more damage/round & he gets more HP.


Roy doesn't have more hp though. Roys 10 +13d10 (avg 5.5)= 81.5 +con bonuses

vs

Belkars 8 +12d8 (avg 4.5) +1d12 (avg 6.5) = 68.5 +natural con bonus

but belkar gets + 2 / level from the rage , 28 +68.5= 96.5 +natural con bonuses... until the rage runs out.


If they play it strait whack to whack , the winner could come down to initiative.





Additionally: Why are we assuming the FIGHTS will be unarmored? Roman gladiators were given quite good armor over the vitals and sword arm to reduce the chance of random fatalities and make the fights last longer/be more entertaining.

Because order of the stick isn't a historical comic, its a comic parodying the conventions of role playing and stories in general. In the stories (regardless of reality) gladiators are unarmored. How else could we see the well oiled rippling muscles?

[monomer]

Because order of the stick isn't a historical comic, its a comic parodying the conventions of role playing and stories in general. In the stories (regardless of reality) gladiators are unarmored. How else could we see the well oiled rippling muscles?

The gladiators were wearing armor; it was was just designed by the same people who design female leather armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html). :smalltongue:

[super dark33]

The precious?

lol'd at this

if in build and stats, hten belkar get -20 to evrything (he is supposed to die, no mattar what) roy will gain some levels, enor and ganji wont be drawn anymore, and belkar will die

[Boogastreehouse]

...there just aren't that many decent fighter feats in core...

Players Handbook II (I know, not really core, but almost!) tries to address this with lots of feats only accessible to high-level fighters.

[rewinn]

Belkar (assuming 14th level) could very well have taken human as his favored enemy
What evidence is there that this happened even once? If anything, he took "Anything With XP" as favored enemy.

But ... even so ... this is how it'd play out:

:roy: "I'm a hero. I'm not killing my friend Belkar just because you want me to."
:belkar: "I'm Chaotic. I'm not killing my friend Roy just because you want me to. Come and get me!"
:elan: "Dun-dun-DUNH!!!"

[Acero]

What if Roy used his feats to sepcialize in slashing weapons instead of Greatsword? If so, Belkar is hypothetical toast

[Da'Shain]

Can't do that, sadly.

Belkar likely has humans as at least one of his favored enemies, but it's far less likely that he's put more than one or, at most, two of his bumps into them, because the enemies they've fought over the course of the comic have overwhelmingly been either mixed-species groups or hobgoblins. He might have the same bonus against humans as he does against hobgoblins (considering how much he hates the Paladins and how easily he defeated Crystal) but they're almost certainly not going to be his main favored enemies.

From a story perspective, it really would not make much sense for Belkar to defeat Roy, the single classed Fighter who actually went to Fighter School and went toe to toe with Miko instead of needing to run and whittle her down. Also, Roy's supposed to be a large part of the reason Belkar curbs himself, both because he allows Belkar to have a socially acceptable outlet for his rage (i.e. adventuring) but also due to Roy being capable of physically subduing Belkar himself if he chose to. That dynamic may have changed following Roy's death and resurrection (with Belkar gaining at least a level or two) and we might see this fight as the moment when Belkar realizes that, but over the course of the comic I, at least, always got the distinct impression that Belkar knew not to mess with Roy.

[Claudius Maximus]

Why are people saying that Belkar has a speed advantage over Enor? Enor not only runs faster, but can fly at almost 3 times Belkar's speed.

Belkar and Roy most likely have the same speed. Belkar probably has more dexterity though.

[Da'Shain]

Enor can't fly at the moment, with his wings bound. Why would he move faster, though? As far as I know even large half-dragons have no bonus to their base movement speed, and ogres' base move is 30 feet, same as anyone else.

Belkar has the same move speed as most medium-size creatures, because of the +10 bonus from barbarians' Fast Movement.

So no advantage either way there, from what I can see.

[derfenrirwolv]

What evidence is there that this happened even once? If anything, he took "Anything With XP" as favored enemy."


Hey, same bonuses! :)

The evidence is the fight with the thieves guild, where he was pretty much bisecting rogues left and right with his daggers. About the only way i can think of for belkar to dish out that kind of damage is with his species enemy bonus.

[Zevox]

Hey, same bonuses! :)

The evidence is the fight with the thieves guild, where he was pretty much bisecting rogues left and right with his daggers. About the only way i can think of for belkar to dish out that kind of damage is with his species enemy bonus.
Funny, he seems to do that in every fight, regardless of what he's fighting.

Really, Belkar's combat prowess have long been known to operate on rule of cool/plot power. His build just shouldn't be as effective as he is portrayed as being during the comic.

Besides, if anything, he surely has Kobolds as a favored enemy, given his immediate hate for Yikyik based solely on his race.

Zevox

[Bongos]

I wonder if the Oracles prediction has any bearing on this. Belkar asked if he would kill the Oracle, Miko, Miko's horse, Varusvius or Roy.

Since Belkar already killed the Oracle does that mean he won't ever kill Roy? So if Roy and Belkar fight would that mean Roy kills Belkar?

Of course the Oracle's answer is pretty cryptic, he never said belkar would cause the death of only one of them.

[Zevox]

Since Belkar already killed the Oracle does that mean he won't ever kill Roy? So if Roy and Belkar fight would that mean Roy kills Belkar?
No, it doesn't. Just because Belkar fulfilled the prophecy by killing the Oracle does not mean he now cannot ever kill any of the others. The prophecy has no bearing on that.


Of course the Oracle's answer is pretty cryptic, he never said belkar would cause the death of only one of them.
Bingo.

Zevox

[Bongos]

Well he can't kill Miko and her horse.

[Zevox]

Well he can't kill Miko and her horse.
Basically true, but kind of beside the point, since the reason for that is not because he fulfilled his prophecy by killing the Oracle.

Zevox

[BridgeCity]

Sorry If this has already been said but if slightly non-core books are allowed Roy could easily have taken Melee Weapon Mastery at some point, so he may still get benefits for using any slashing weapon in the arena. Not much, but its something.

[LuPuWei]

Why are people saying that Belkar has a speed advantage over Enor? Enor not only runs faster, but can fly at almost 3 times Belkar's speed.

Belkar and Roy most likely have the same speed. Belkar probably has more dexterity though.

Well, IRL may not count for much, but as a large creature, its is understandable if Enor has a significantly higher land speed. But we're not talking about a straight run here. At closer range, with less momentum, Belkar has an advantage as far as manoeuvrability goes. So at close range he should be moving quicker than Enor, making him hard to hit (like catching a chicken). Also Belkar has had to deal with this all his life, so I'm pretty sure he's well practiced. But he would have to be at the top of his game, in the zone, totally focused and a little lucky if he doesn't have anything else to help him...

For the record, Wild Elephants in India are broken in and tamed by a single man with a stick. The elephant is held in a confined space (though large enough for it to move around in) and the man, at extreme risk to his own life, continues to hit the elephant and dodge the elephants tusks, feet and trunk, making the elephant use its energy till it just collapses from exhaustion. After that, unless specifically mal-treated, the elephant will be loyal to the man for life.

[Deliverance]

:belkar:

In-universe, he is a sexy shoeless god of war, death's little helper, who kills anything he can get away with, mostly using daggers but not averse to using whatever he can get his hands on.

Player-derived stats or knowledge about D&D builds that states that X should be stronger than Y assuming everything else being equal just doesn't apply to the question of whom would beat whom in-universe. Forget narrative imperative that goes by the "X should win because he is the hero/it would fit the plot better...", if the story says that X is great at fighting, then X is great at fighting no matter what stats we would assign to the character X.

If you want to feel better about it while clinging to the "but the rules say..." argument, just assume that Belkar is regularly cheating on his die rolls and getting away with it.

This is one of the things that Belkar's imagination/Lord Shojo's ghost gave as advice together with pretended character growth - and the one thing Belkar too notice of out of that was the pretended character growth, an indication that he might already have no problems with the cheating part.

[BridgeCity]

:belkar:

In-universe, he is a sexy shoeless god of war, death's little helper, who kills anything he can get away with, mostly using daggers but not averse to using whatever he can get his hands on.

Player-derived stats or knowledge about D&D builds that states that X should be stronger than Y assuming everything else being equal just doesn't apply to the question of whom would beat whom in-universe. Forget narrative imperative that goes by the "X should win because he is the hero/it would fit the plot better...", if the story says that X is great at fighting, then X is great at fighting no matter what stats we would assign to the character X.

If you are going to ignore stats and character build's and go purely with in-universe things, then you have to take into account the fact that the OOTS universe, rather like the Discworld, runs on narrative causality - Elan, Nale and Tarquin prove this. Therefore, you cannot discount the arguement of "X should win because he is the hero." It is just as important, in-universe, as whatever Belkar is described as being.

It's also worth noting that he is the only one to call himself a sexy shoeless god of war, and this was after killing a whole bunch of creatures that were so easy to kill he was going to get no experience whatsoever from it. Yes, I know he has killed other harder things as well, but all the hobgoblins needs to stop being used as an example of how good he is.

[snikrept]

Gannji seeme to think that the OOTS were significantly higher level than his party when he saw them take a blade barrier in the face and commented that his group was not getting paid enough to recapture some people who can take a blade barrier to the face and keep running.

EDIT: also, regarding the power of plot, recall that Xykon mopped the floor with Vaarsuvius + 3 epic evil magi. That should have been an easy kill for Team Vaarsuvius, going by stats alone. Characters don't always fight optimally even if their build would suggest victory is surely theirs.

[King of Nowhere]

I think you're looking Belkar wrong.
True, he has an horribly unoptimized build, and you thus assume his combat prowesse comes from plot reasons, but that's not the only explanation. There are other things that counts more than build optimization.
As a dm, if one of my players want to play an awfully unoptimized build, I let them roll uber stats, or give a negative level adjustment to put them one level before the rest of the party. That way you keep combat powers balanced. And I think the same happened to Belkar (note that in the clas/level geekery there is no proof against this). I assume Belkar either started with some impressive stats (at first level, after race modifiers) like 18 18 16 (note that Roy is statted with at least a 16 in CON, but that may well be the result of a magic item) or has an extra level on the rest of oots.
That would explain his greater-than-should-be power with a perfectly reasonable gaming reason, and make him a peer of Roy. When Roy threatened to kill him, he threatened to do so with the rest of the party, never by himself.

As far as Enor go, we know too little of him to judge.

Gannjii is probably the weaker one in toe-to-toe figth, being him a rogue.

But keep in mind that 1v1 a lucky critical may make the difference, so I won't call sheanigans if an eventual figth will end in an unexpected way because of dice rolls.

EDIT: about V vs Xykon, V had greater spell selections but he only had his standard hp, saving throws and magic items, that were vastly outmatched by Xykon's. He was technically higer level because the mechanic of the soul splice was made that way, probably to avoid abuses, but I don't think it can be said he was really the more powerful of the two.

[Kish]

Sorry If this has already been said but if slightly non-core books are allowed Roy could easily have taken Melee Weapon Mastery at some point, so he may still get benefits for using any slashing weapon in the arena. Not much, but its something.
There is no "slightly non-core." Either it is or it ain't.

[derfenrirwolv]

As a dm, if one of my players want to play an awfully unoptimized build, I let them roll uber stats, or give a negative level adjustment to put them one level before the rest of the party. That way you keep combat powers balanced.

Do you give this bonus to all non casters?



And I think the same happened to Belkar (note that in the clas/level geekery there is no proof against this).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

I think its pretty random to assume, without evidence, that the OOTS verse is working on a random house rule that you came up with.



I assume Belkar either started with some impressive stats (at first level, after race modifiers) like 18 18 16 (note that Roy is statted with at least a 16 in CON, but that may well be the result of a magic item) or has an extra level on the rest of oots.

If anything he's behind Haley. He leveled up only fighting undead in azure city, while she had the opportunity to fight undead AND living folks. I believe the giant confirmed that belkar is taking an xp penalty for his barbarian level, so that would seem to indicate that horrendous unoptimization isn't being rewarded.


That would explain his greater-than-should-be power with a perfectly reasonable gaming reason, and make him a peer of Roy. When Roy threatened to kill him, he threatened to do so with the rest of the party, never by himself.

1 extra level really wouldn't help belkar.

[crazywolf]

You're kidding right? Belkar - who has a strength and size disadvantage

???
belker has a size advantage it would be harder for enor to hit him
and also he is
SEXY SHOELE-erm SANDALED GOD OF WAR
so yeah

[Zevox]

???
belker has a size advantage it would be harder for enor to hit him
He himself will also hit for much less damage per attack than Enor though, due to the reduced damage die of small weapons and the strength penalty associated with most small-size races. And that size bonus to AC is pretty minor, particularly without any armor or other bonuses beyond dexterity to go with it.

Zevox

[Doug Lampert]

[QUOTE]

ahh .. forgot improved crit.

Besides muscling it through on trial and error do you have a mechanism for calculating that? The numbers LOOK right, just wondering if there's some way to plot it without spending a lot of time on excel.

i should have dropped belkars AC by 2 more, from raging.

I have a number of tricks for a quick estimate, which is how I knew 3 was too little, but actual average damage comes from excel. But it's not hard at all, excel is basically a programming language, just leave the PA amount as a free variable.

[Doug Lampert]

Enor can't fly at the moment, with his wings bound. Why would he move faster, though? As far as I know even large half-dragons have no bonus to their base movement speed, and ogres' base move is 30 feet, same as anyone else.

From the SRD:

OGRE
Ogre
Large Giant
Hit Dice: 4d8+11 (29 hp)
Initiative: –1
Speed: 30 ft. in hide armor (6 squares); base speed 40 ft.

I bolded the important part for you.

[BridgeCity]

There is no "slightly non-core." Either it is or it ain't.

. . . I know that, I was referencing something boogastreehouse said earlier :smallannoyed:

And if you are going to be that picky, 'ain't' is a word that should never be used.

[derfenrirwolv]

I have a number of tricks for a quick estimate, which is how I knew 3 was too little, but actual average damage comes from excel. But it's not hard at all, excel is basically a programming language, just leave the PA amount as a free variable.

But as the power attack goes up the %'s of hits goes down, and the average damage per hit goes up 1: because of the extra power attack 2) because the remaining hits are more likely to be crits.

[Deliverance]

He himself will also hit for much less damage per attack than Enor though, due to the reduced damage die of small weapons and the strength penalty associated with most small-size races. And that size bonus to AC is pretty minor, particularly without any armor or other bonuses beyond dexterity to go with it.
True, but even if all else fails, Belkar has the great equalizer: Nudging the dice or outright cheating on them.

Belkar has had the dream/vision/conversation with himself/ghost lord Shojo in which he realizes/convinces himself that so long as he pretends to be a team player, he can get away with cheating. There is no reason to expect him not to take advantage of this.

Expect Belkar to get the right die rolls when it matters. :D

[Ron Miel]

Well, Belkar might still have his ring. ;)

He certainly seems to be jumping high in panel 1.


You're kidding right? Belkar - who has a strength and size disadvantage when it comes to brute combat who is in fact trying to fill that role - fighting someone who also fits that role but whose parents where a dragon and an ogre. Yeah, it's real obvious who's winning this fight.

The same halfling that killed Trigak, of course.

[Doug Lampert]

But as the power attack goes up the %'s of hits goes down, and the average damage per hit goes up 1: because of the extra power attack 2) because the remaining hits are more likely to be crits.

And your point is? Treating PA as a single variable and it can change both hit chance and damage. If you can solve for ONE PA value you've already got most of the algorithm to solve for ANY PA value, the only questions are: (1)Did you code it so you could implement that algorithm?, and (2) Did you remember to deal with the special cases for rolls of 1 and 20?

This is simple. It really is, solving for all possible PA values should take about 10 seconds longer in Excel than solving for 1 PA value.

And crits are always the same % of hits until the hit range is smaller than the crit range (do the math, crits drop as a % of attacks but not as a % of hits until you're missing on attacks in the crit range). They're a simple multiplicative correction for all the values we're looking at. Roy CAN'T PA for enough to drop his crits below a straight 20% increase to damage.

[derfenrirwolv]

And your point is? Treating PA as a single variable and it can change both hit chance and damage. If you can solve for ONE PA value you've already got most of the algorithm to solve for ANY PA value, the only questions are: (1)Did you code it so you could implement that algorithm?, and (2) Did you remember to deal with the special cases for rolls of 1 and 20?

Well i'm not a computer programmer. I didn't code anything. As i said, i just muscled excel through it. You might be used to dealing wit more complicated situations but most folks arent. I just plugged in the hit%'s manually for all three attacks. It takes me a while to do if then statements in excel, namely capping the hit and miss %'s at 95 and 5%



This is simple. It really is, solving for all possible PA values should take about 10 seconds longer in Excel than solving for 1 PA value.

Doing this for 14 values of power attack would be easy, but the 1 and 20 cases and the crit make it complicated, at least as far as i'm concerned. If its simple perhaps you could post the formula you're using? I'm not saying its wrong, I just want to see what it is.




And crits are always the same % of hits until the hit range is smaller than the crit range (do the math, crits drop as a % of attacks but not as a % of hits until you're missing on attacks in the crit range)


Ahh i see. If you crit from 19-20 and you need a 17 to hit 50% of your hits are potential crits and 20% of those confirm, giving you 10% crits.

If you need a 3 to hit 11.1111% (2/18) of your hits are potential crits and you confirm 90% of the time, giving you 10% crits. Needing a 19 will mess that up but, as you said, its not an issue with an unarmored belkar. I hadn't realized that the confirmation roll and the number needed to hit canceled out like that.



They're a simple multiplicative correction for all the values we're looking at. Roy CAN'T PA for enough to drop his crits below a straight 20% increase to damage.

[Da'Shain]

I bolded the important part for you.That'll teach me to not to read more closely. Saw 30 ft and stopped looking.

[King of Nowhere]

@ derfenrirwolv:
1) I'm not making arguments from ignorance, I'm just saying that we cannot dismiss the idea on solid facts.
2) I'm not assuming that oots is working on "my houserule" (it's not even an houserule, just something I do to try to keep things balanced), I'm just assuming that Belkar has uber stats. Which brings the third point
3) Is assuming that belkar fight so well despite his bad build because of luck when rolling stats so hard to believe...
that you prefer to think it's a plot hole?

[Doug Lampert]

Doing this for 14 values of power attack would be easy, but the 1 and 20 cases and the crit make it complicated, at least as far as i'm concerned. If its simple perhaps you could post the formula you're using? I'm not saying its wrong, I just want to see what it is.

You can copy by dragging.

Row 1: (Headers)
<empty cell>; Attack 1; Attack 2; Attack 3; PA; Expected damage.

Row 2: (Base values)
'Base values; 27; 22; 17; N/A; 17

Row 3+:
<empty cell>; =IF(B$2-$E3>19,19,MAX(1,B$2-$E3)); =IF(C$2-$E3>19,19,MAX(1,C$2-$E3)); =IF(D$2-$E3>19,19,MAX(1,D$2-$E3)); <Power attack value>; =SUM(B3:D3)/20*($F$2+E3*2)

You can simply drag to copy the main formula from B3 to B4 and B5, and then drag again to copy it all the way down the page, similarly for getting power attack values and copies of the final cell.

Results look like:
Attack 1 Attack 2 Attack 3 PA Expected damage.
Base values 27 22 17 N/A 17
19 19 17 0 46.75
19 19 16 1 51.3
19 19 15 2 55.65
19 19 14 3 59.8
19 18 13 4 62.5
19 17 12 5 64.8
19 16 11 6 66.7
19 15 10 7 68.2
19 14 9 8 69.3
18 13 8 9 68.25
17 12 7 10 66.6
16 11 6 11 64.35
15 10 5 12 61.5
14 9 4 13 58.05
13 8 3 14 54
12 7 2 15 49.35
11 6 1 16 44.1
10 5 1 17 40.8
9 4 1 18 37.1
8 3 1 19 33
7 2 1 20 28.5

Notice that by no particular coincidence the maximum is also the last time that the first attack hits on a 2. Up till then you're only losing .1 hits per point of power attack. After that you're losing .15.

Multiply by 1.2 for criticals included.

[denthor]

Belkar would beat Roy. Roy loses all his feats invested in using greatswords unless he gets very lucky and they give him one. Plus, he relies on armor, whereas Belkar doesn't(or at least way less)

Enor would beat Belkar if he's clever enough to use grapple against an opponent two size categories smaller. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) If not, tough call because Belkar in-universe is a ten times better fighter than he should be with his character build.
About the lightning attack, don't forget Belkar has evasion

Grapple is ineffective against the Belkster since when grappled you can use small weapons like daggers.

[Kish]

2) I'm not assuming that oots is working on "my houserule" (it's not even an houserule, just something I do to try to keep things balanced),

What exactly do you consider to be the definition of a house rule?


I'm just assuming that Belkar has uber stats.

Belkar probably does have very high Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. Roy probably does as well.

[Bad Situation]

Belkar would beat Roy. Roy loses all his feats invested in using greatswords unless he gets very lucky and they give him one. Plus, he relies on armor, whereas Belkar doesn't(or at least way less)
Unarmored and without his magical weapons Belkar is made even weaker than Roy. At their levels the bonuses Belkar has to dodge don't amount to much when you take into consideration that Roy is chock full of levels in a full BAB class. To be sure. Belkar has levels in full BAB classes as well, but Roy not only hits harder but also has more hit-points.

And Roy could probably grapple Belkar into submission pretty easily.

[King of Nowhere]

Actually, for unarmed figthing belkar only has a -2 racial to strength, and deals 1d2 instead of 1d3. Average of 1,5 damage less per hit. If we assume belkar had a natural 18 in str (so a 16 with racial mod) and roy wasn't so lucky and only got a 16, their strength may be evenly matched.
And belkar seems agile, he may very well have an 18 dex for an unarmored ca of 15, which means that the second and third attack may miss (assuming Roy to have a str of 19 or 20 and being level 12, he should have +17+12+7 or +16+11+6). Roy's CA may be at 11 or 12, and the extra hits belkar could place may turn the tide.
Plus, if he took favored enemy: humans, that should count.
Roy should be able to win by grappling, unless Belkar invested heavily in escape artist, in which case he may be able to slip free everytime Roy tries to grapple him (remember that they'll have their skin oiled, so that should provide a circumstance bonus, possibly greater than the standard +2)

[derfenrirwolv]

Grapple is ineffective against the Belkster since when grappled you can use small weapons like daggers.

True, but pinning him is incredibly effective.

If You’re Pinning an Opponent

You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking.

When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.

[The Pilgrim]

If anything he's behind Haley. He leveled up only fighting undead in azure city, while she had the opportunity to fight undead AND living folks.

To be fair, the only creatures with enough Challenge Rating to actually give XP to the PC's were probably the undeads of the Black Squad. I mean, it doesn't matter how many hobbo mooks Haley killed, she didn't take any XP from them.

[derfenrirwolv]

To be fair, the only creatures with enough Challenge Rating to actually give XP to the PC's were probably the undeads of the Black Squad. I mean, it doesn't matter how many hobbo mooks Haley killed, she didn't take any XP from them.

She also fought tsukio a number of times

[brilliantlight]

Actually, for unarmed figthing belkar only has a -2 racial to strength, and deals 1d2 instead of 1d3. Average of 1,5 damage less per hit. If we assume belkar had a natural 18 in str (so a 16 with racial mod) and roy wasn't so lucky and only got a 16, their strength may be evenly matched.
And belkar seems agile, he may very well have an 18 dex for an unarmored ca of 15, which means that the second and third attack may miss (assuming Roy to have a str of 19 or 20 and being level 12, he should have +17+12+7 or +16+11+6). Roy's CA may be at 11 or 12, and the extra hits belkar could place may turn the tide.
Plus, if he took favored enemy: humans, that should count.
Roy should be able to win by grappling, unless Belkar invested heavily in escape artist, in which case he may be able to slip free everytime Roy tries to grapple him (remember that they'll have their skin oiled, so that should provide a circumstance bonus, possibly greater than the standard +2)

Why assume that Belkar had an 18 for both dex and str? The odds against that are pretty high. My guess is that Belkar has maybe a 16 str and/or dex without magic.

[BridgeCity]

. . .

The same halfling that killed Trigak, of course.

The trouble with using that as an example is that it wasn't Belkar alone who killed Trigak, as he had already suffered two sneak attacks by Haley, and I think other members of the party got hits in too, Belkar got the killing blow, thats true, but that was after Trigak was already wounded badly enough to being trying to escape.

Can't really use that as 'he killed trigak, so he could easily kill Enor one on one.'

[Bad Situation]

Actually, for unarmed figthing belkar only has a -2 racial to strength, and deals 1d2 instead of 1d3. Average of 1,5 damage less per hit. If we assume belkar had a natural 18 in str (so a 16 with racial mod) and roy wasn't so lucky and only got a 16, their strength may be evenly matched.+2)
But they aren't going to fight unarmored, you can see that they're practicing with wooden weapons, and why bother practicing with weapons if they aren't going to use them in the arena. I doubt Belkar has that much HP, a few power attacks (I'm assuming Enor took the feat as well) should make short work of him.

[brilliantlight]

But they aren't going to fight unarmored, you can see that they're practicing with wooden weapons, and why bother practicing with weapons if they aren't going to use them in the arena. I doubt Belkar has that much HP, a few power attacks (I'm assuming Enor took the feat as well) should make short work of him.


Belkars 8 +12d8 (avg 4.5) +1d12 (avg 6.5) = 68.5 +natural con bonus

but belkar gets + 2 / level from the rage , 28 +68.5= 96.5 +natural con bonuses... until the rage runs out.

70-100 HP sound quite a few to me. Belkar is a high lvl ranger/barbarian not ROTK Frodo Baggins.

[LuPuWei]

70-100 HP sound quite a few to me. Belkar is a high lvl ranger/barbarian not ROTK Frodo Baggins.

Why? How many levels would Frodo have gained by ROTK?

[Kish]

70-100 HP sound quite a few to me. Belkar is a high lvl ranger/barbarian not ROTK Frodo Baggins.


Why?
For starters, Frodo wasn't evil.

[derfenrirwolv]

Why? How many levels would Frodo have gained by ROTK?

Not many. He ran away from everything, and the epic level wizard, high level dwarf fighter and high level rangers with him probably ate heavily into the xp

[LuPuWei]

Not many. He ran away from everything, and the epic level wizard, high level dwarf fighter and high level rangers with him probably ate heavily into the xp

I see. Wait, so that means, the XP gains for each encounter were much less than what he would have gained on his own (assuming he was able to survive) right? Poor schlepp. I wonder what his final stats looked like...


For starters, Frodo wasn't evil.

Pardon?

[brilliantlight]

Not many. He ran away from everything, and the epic level wizard, high level dwarf fighter and high level rangers with him probably ate heavily into the xp

More to the point, Frodo was sickly and worn out by the end of the story because of his mental struggles with the ring. In some ways Frodo is probably tougher at the beginning of the story than at the end of it.

[Ancalagon]

In some ways Frodo is probably tougher at the beginning of the story than at the end of it.

The growing of the hobbits over the things they endure and do is the entire point of that whole narrative. ;)

Those movies are not clear about it but the final story in the book (you know, coming home to the shire and having to fight for it) is pretty clear. You simply cannot understand LotR without reading the book.

Frodo is MUCH stronger after the whole ring-business. Tolkien made it very obvious for the rest of the hobbits who come home as knights and defeat the foes with ease but it's also true for Frodo.

[brilliantlight]

The growing of the hobbits over the things they endure and do is the entire point of that whole narrative. ;)

Those movies are not clear about it but the final story in the book (you know, coming home to the shire and having to fight for it) is pretty clear. You simply cannot understand LotR without reading the book.

Frodo is MUCH stronger after the whole ring-business. Tolkien made it very obvious for the rest of the hobbits who come home as knights and defeat the foes with ease but it's also true for Frodo.

Depends on how you read it. I will grant Merry, Pippin and Sam are all much tougher but not Frodo. He seems quite weary to me and seems quite sickly. In the chapter "The Scouring of the Shire" he does very little, letting the others do everything. Remember they didn't have to struggle with the One Ring, except for Sam very briefly. They gained a lot of experience in fighting but without having to fight off the effects of the ring so were much tougher at the end.

[LuPuWei]

Depends on how you read it. I will grant Merry, Pippin and Sam are all much tougher but not Frodo. He seems quite weary to me and seems quite sickly. In the chapter "The Scouring of the Shire" he does very little, letting the others do everything. Remember they didn't have to struggle with the One Ring, except for Sam very briefly. They gained a lot of experience in fighting but without having to fight off the effects of the ring so were much tougher at the end.

Physically. Mentally, I'd agree with Ancalagon and go on to say he may be tougher than all the rest put together.

[brilliantlight]

Physically. Mentally, I'd agree with Ancalagon and go on to say he may be tougher than all the rest put together.

True enough, his struggles with the ring probably toughened him up mentally while it stole his health.

[Orzel]

Belkar beats everyone because he's the only on whose AC is higher than 12.
He also has the highest attack bonus. It's only his damage per hit that sucks.
Everyone else will miss their last iterative attack. Luck is on his side.

[Ancalagon]

Depends on how you read it.

Well, yes. Of course you can read it the wrong way. :smalltongue:

But Frodo's Growth is not a physical one and one in regard to fighting power. D&D rules are not something you can use to reflect "character" in.

Merry and Pippin surely can be described with D&D-levels, Sam also to a certain degree (his class is just "Gardener", not much a Level 10 Gardener can do).-

[Marnath]

Belkar beats everyone because he's the only on whose AC is higher than 12.
He also has the highest attack bonus. It's only his damage per hit that sucks.
Everyone else will miss their last iterative attack. Luck is on his side.

Not by a long shot. He and Roy have the same BAB, but roy is a LOT stronger.

[Claudius Maximus]

Roy is of lower level due to having died, and small size grants a small boost to attack bonus. I'd say Belkar probably has the same attack bonus, maybe a little less when fighting with two weapons, and probably the same again when raging.

I'd say Roy would win, just because he can afford to power attack constantly with a two handed weapon against low AC foes. (I'd say Belkar's AC is something like 13-16). Belkar can probably hit Roy's even lower AC with every attack, but remember he's most likely dealing something like 1d3+5 per hit, and even less with his off-hand weapon, while Roy could probably do more like 2d6+18.

Also, Roy can easily get Belkar with things like Disarm, Trip, and Grapple attacks, especially if he has the relevant feats. All of these things involve hefty size modifiers.

[Marnath]

Roy is of lower level due to having died, and small size grants a small boost to attack bonus. I'd say Belkar probably has the same attack bonus, maybe a little less when fighting with two weapons, and probably the same again when raging.

I'd say Roy would win, just because he can afford to power attack constantly with a two handed weapon against low AC foes. (I'd say Belkar's AC is something like 13-16). Belkar can probably hit Roy's even lower AC with every attack, but remember he's most likely dealing something like 1d3+5 per hit, and even less with his off-hand weapon, while Roy could probably do more like 2d6+18.

Also, Roy can easily get Belkar with things like Disarm, Trip, and Grapple attacks, especially if he has the relevant feats. All of these things involve hefty size modifiers.

Roy lost a level, yes, but belkar has been taking multiclassing xp penalties for much of the strip from his barbarian level. I think they're probably even leveled. Plus small size is only worth +1 attack, i have trouble believeing Roy's strength bonus is less than 3 higher than belkar's.

[King of Nowhere]

i have trouble believeing Roy's strength bonus is less than 3 higher than belkar's.

Why? Belkar got a -2 racial to str, then he's figther oriented like roy and therefore we can suppose he put all of his stats boosts in str when leveling. And there's no reason at all he shouldn't have put as many magica bonuses on str (not that it will matter in the arena since they will lack magic items). There's no reason Roy's str modifier must be higher than Belkar by more than a +1. If Belkar was lucky with his rolls and Roy wasn't, there's even the chance that Belkar is as strong as Roy, or even slightly stronger.
In fact, when Belkar rages he gets STRONGER than Roy.

Being unable to power attack should be one of his greatest problems in an eventual fight with roy. And size penalties to a lot of stuff. But his str score shouldn't be a real problem.

[Orzel]

Their magicless stats are near equal. Every advantage one has there's a disadvantage. The better duelist would win. That's why I nudge to SSGoW.

[Marnath]

I just looked in the Class&geekery thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131219&highlight=Class+geekery) and they figure Roy's unenhanced strength is about 20, while they peg belkar at 14.

[Orzel]

Belkar has negatives in all his mental stats, has +3 for levels and racial stat bonus. He HAS to have high something.

That stat is his edge.

[Archdeacon GX]

Am I missing something here? I keep seeing stuff about level bonuses to damage, but I've only ever heard of that being done in Star Wars d20. I thought D&D 3.5 just did weapon damage + Strength modifier?

Oh, and for the record, I think Roy would probably beat Belkar in a normal-circumstance fight, considering factors like: He knows how Belkar fights and would probably be able to defend himself accordingly. While this would normally provide no real benefit mechanically, it -is- a plot-driven comic.

[Exterminatus]

Belkar has negatives in all his mental stats, has +3 for levels and racial stat bonus. He HAS to have high something.

That stat is his edge.

Not necessarily, if the stats are decided by rolling, then Belkar either rolled low or used his point buy in a very unoptimized fashion.

Even then Roy can simply use the other attacks (Trip/Bull Rush/Disarm/Grapple). Even dumping feats into the weapon focus/specialization tree, there are still many feats that will be useful. With combat expertise (Roy can afford a tank to attack, especially against opponents that already have a low AC to begin with)that's a +5 dodge bonus to AC there. The TWF and ITWF penalties negate the small size bonus to attack, and combined with the above, can make off-hand attacks dicy.

[Claudius Maximus]

There is no level based bonus to damage in D&D 3.5. If there were, Belkar would probably do much better due to his higher number of attacks. As it stands though, I'd put my money on Roy for various reasons outlined above.

[Marnath]

Am I missing something here? I keep seeing stuff about level bonuses to damage, but I've only ever heard of that being done in Star Wars d20. I thought D&D 3.5 just did weapon damage + Strength modifier?


We're talking about BAB, which is derived from class levels.

[Orzel]

Not necessarily, if the stats are decided by rolling, then Belkar either rolled low or used his point buy in a very unoptimized fashion.



That means there are 4 possibilities:

1) Belkar has BAD starting base abilities but had so much plot power, he was still able to reach level 13 and defeat many foes which he attracted often (because he's a harmful jerk). With Roy's bad luck, the fight could go either way.

2) Belkar got decent ability rolls, put all his good rolls to STR/DEX/CON, and dumped INT/WIS/CON. The average modifier of his physical abilities is +3 before racial and level bonuses. His level 1 modifiers are close to STR+3/DEX+4/CON+3/INT+0/WIS-2/CHA-1. This gives him enough accuracy, damage, and defenses to be a workable warrior class.

3) Every member of the OotS started with a 18 (Roy STR, Haley DEX, V INT, Durkon WIS, Elan CHA) and Belkar started with CON 18. His current modifier is +5. That gives him on average ~125hp at level 13. This is compared to Roy's CON of somewhere between 14-16 for ~95.

3) Belkar has a powerful feat or template no one knows about.

[Marnath]

Where are you getting those HP numbers from? Ranger is a d8 and fighter is a d10, so if Roy only has an 16 con VS belkar's 18(which doesn't seem like he'd have one that high, but whatever) then they should be at roughly the same HP.

[Klev]

If you go to Rich's description of Miko vs Oots (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639) he writes:
"...Even that last d12 HD can't make up for 11 levels of d8+Con...", also in the same fight Roy was with positive HP even after taking several hits.

Of course, since that fight Belkar could have taken more levels of Barbarian and that could have closed the gap, but at the fight it looks like Roy had more HP than Belkar.

[Orzel]

Where are you getting those HP numbers from? Ranger is a d8 and fighter is a d10, so if Roy only has an 16 con VS belkar's 18(which doesn't seem like he'd have one that high, but whatever) then they should be at roughly the same HP.


11-12 d8 HDs and 1-2 d12 HDs with 20 Con averages to the 120's. I'm not saying Belkar has 20+ Con but it's one of the few ways t explain a chaotic evil psycho making it to level 13 as a ranger while ignoring half his class feature.

The other possibilities are massive plot power, a broken feat/template, or actually decent physical stats.

[Marnath]

11-12 d8 HDs and 1-2 d12 HDs with 20 Con averages to the 120's. I'm not saying Belkar has 20+ Con but it's one of the few ways t explain a chaotic evil psycho making it to level 13 as a ranger while ignoring half his class feature.

The other possibilities are massive plot power, a broken feat/template, or actually decent physical stats.

Or maybe the fact that he's been fighting single digit CR mobs this whole campaign?

[Gandariel]

Or maybe the fact that he's been fighting single digit CR mobs this whole campaign?

and a Rogue/Assassin of the same level of Haley, without getting hit even once.

[Orzel]

I'm still in the camp that says he rolled 3 16s and put them to Str/Dex/Con.

1 CR mob stop giving XP at level 9 I believe. And Belkar is annoying/destruction/evil enough to piss off better than level 1's and 2s.

[Irbis]

Belkar beat two CR 15 foes by level 12, alone, getting full XP.

Roy can't claim the same feat, and he lost a level recently.

Belkar wins :smallamused:

[King of Nowhere]

Just want to nitpick that the geekery thread put Belkar's str to AT LEAST 14 because someone made some overly complicated calculations when he fougth the annis in the starmetal storyarc, because he made a jump long enough to overcome his movement speed and therefore his minimal jump bonus would need to be at least x, and considering all the other factors he needed to have at least 14 str to have that bonus.
I always considered that a huge waste of effort, since there's no need for calculation to infer that a level 12 figther tipe has at least a str of 14.
It is probably much higher.
Even Roy's str is probably higher than 20, considering both level enhancement and magical items. I mean, we know he ha a belt of str +4, and he's at least level 12, for him to have 20 str he must have started with a 13. Again his str is a minimal value, probably calculated on his loading capability whne he throw around Enor in the bar figth.

[Exterminatus]

Belkar beat two CR 15 foes by level 12, alone, getting full XP.

Roy can't claim the same feat, and he lost a level recently.

Belkar wins :smallamused:

He held both of them off fighting defensively with a shield/buckler. He did not kill both of them; he only killed Crystal in direct combat and against Bozzok he allowed Haley to flank allowing her to use her sneak attack class feature. (Nitpick: It was also Haley that landed the final blow)

Unless you're referring to some other event that I can't remember.

[Kish]

Belkar has not fought any MOBs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html), that we know of.

[Asta Kask]

Exactly!!! For all we know Enor has only one class level (I doubt it, but still) which would make him ECL 6, which Belkar or Roy would wipe the floor with. Both are high level now and that is far more important then racial boost on figuring how tough Enor is in D&D. Without knowing Enor's class levels we don't have a single clue on how tough he really is.

Except we know that Enor and Gannj captured three 14th-level characters.

And I think Belkar has sucky stats, sucky build and a player who rolls '20' suspiciously often. Can I look at your d20? No, not that one, the one you tried to sleight-of-hand into your pocket.

[Kish]

And I think Belkar has sucky stats, sucky build and a player who rolls '20' suspiciously often.
There are no players.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html)
Also, at least Vaarsuvius must be fifteenth level, having cast Power Word Stun when they captured him/her.

[Asta Kask]

Ok. But our scaled friends must be at least semi-competent to have handled V and Haley (I don't really count Elan as a threat.)

[Zevox]

Belkar beat two CR 15 foes by level 12, alone, getting full XP.

Roy can't claim the same feat, and he lost a level recently.

Belkar wins :smallamused:
Correction: he held off one level 14-15 and one level 18-19 Rogue at level 13-14 for a couple of rounds, later incapacitated the lower-level one, and helped Haley defeat the higher-level one (but she and her new bow did most of the work).


He did not kill both of them; he only killed Crystal in direct combat and against Bozzok he allowed Haley to flank allowing her to use her sneak attack class feature. (Nitpick: It was also Haley that landed the final blow)
Corrections: he did not kill Crystal, only incapacitated her. And Haley did not sneak attack Bozzok. She couldn't - if he could Sneak Attack her, he had to be higher Rogue level than her by at least 4, which would render it impossible for her to sneak attack him, due to Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Zevox

[Orzel]

Ok. But our scaled friends must be at least semi-competent to have handled V and Haley (I don't really count Elan as a threat.)

Not really.They one-shotted V with a poisoned weapon anyone could use. Then they meleed two guys who suck at melee versus anything competent.

Currently my Magic-Striped list of Living Melee Power of People Who We Know Some Detail Of is:

Thog
O-chul
Belkar/Roy
Enor
Hinjo/Gannji
Bozzok/Lien
...
...
...
The Blonde Twins

[Gandariel]

Corrections: he did not kill Crystal, only incapacitated her.
Zevox

i think that pretty much counts as "defeating", so he gets XP anyway...

(the Order would have gained XP from the Chimera anyway even if Belkar didn't kill it)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html

[Zevox]

i think that pretty much counts as "defeating", so he gets XP anyway...

(the Order would have gained XP from the Chimera anyway even if Belkar didn't kill it)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html
Kind of beside the point.

Zevox

[Gandariel]

Kind of beside the point.

Zevox

i thought you made that correction because you thought Belkar hadn't gained Xp for that fight and not for unnecessary nitpicking (no offense)

[Zevox]

i thought you made that correction because you thought Belkar hadn't gained Xp for that fight and not for unnecessary nitpicking (no offense)
Why would I care about Belkar's theoretical xp gain? Heck, why would anyone?

Zevox

[Gandariel]

Why would I care about Belkar's theoretical xp gain? Heck, why would anyone?

Zevox

actually the discussion WAS about Belkar's level, abilities, and XP gained.
but speaking of Belkar, i admit, this is pretty pointless

[Zevox]

actually the discussion WAS about Belkar's level, abilities, and XP gained.
but speaking of Belkar, i admit, this is pretty pointless
It's impossible to track Belkar's xp, since we have no idea how much he has, how much he'd gain from any individual fight, etc. And as the Giant doesn't even have set stats for the characters, he sure as hell doesn't calculate xp for them, so the comic certainly isn't designed to follow any particular xp gain - the characters just level up when the Giant decides he wants them to be a little stronger. Hence, there's no reason for anyone to care about xp gained or not gained in the comic.

Zevox

[Darklord Xavez]

"Heroes" win. They have plot armor.
-Xavez

[Marnath]

Just want to nitpick that the geekery thread put Belkar's str to AT LEAST 14 because someone made some overly complicated calculations when he fougth the annis in the starmetal storyarc, because he made a jump long enough to overcome his movement speed and therefore his minimal jump bonus would need to be at least x, and considering all the other factors he needed to have at least 14 str to have that bonus.
I always considered that a huge waste of effort, since there's no need for calculation to infer that a level 12 figther tipe has at least a str of 14.
It is probably much higher.
Even Roy's str is probably higher than 20, considering both level enhancement and magical items. I mean, we know he ha a belt of str +4, and he's at least level 12, for him to have 20 str he must have started with a 13. Again his str is a minimal value, probably calculated on his loading capability whne he throw around Enor in the bar figth.

actually, the calculation is that Roy has 20 str before any items.