PDA

View Full Version : Dodging Arrows and Rays



Jack Zander
2010-07-29, 10:02 AM
How realistic is it for a person to see an arrow fired at them and then be able to react in time to dodge it? How about crossbow bolts? Magical rays?

I know one large benefit of shields were to block incoming arrow volleys, but what about a creature without a shield?

And I've seen real life people grab arrows and slice them in half with a sword, but they were always prepared and the arrows were always fired next to the person so they wouldn't get hurt. How reasonable is it for a person to dodge missiles in the middle of combat?

Snake-Aes
2010-07-29, 10:04 AM
It's not reasonable at all.

Jack Zander
2010-07-29, 10:07 AM
So essentially, all people should be flat-footed against missile attacks in a more gritty DnD ruling (ignoring all other things wrong with arrows for now, such as rapid shot)?

Spiryt
2010-07-29, 10:10 AM
Very broad question, not very suitable to D&D or any system I know of, probably would be better question for Real Weapons and Armor thread.

Anyway, all, I mean all depends on what you mean by "combat situation" (there can be infinite combinations here) and person. People have different reflex, coordination and all.

Anyway, "average" not very heavy arrow begins her flight at about 55 m/s.

So, taking into account that arrow slows down pretty rapidly, depending on exact rate, if you're 40 meters from archer, you can have even 2 seconds to see where approximately arrow is landing, and cover with shield, change position, etc.
That's assuming that you're seeing archer as he shoots at you, there can be countless other situations as I said - you see him, shoot, not sure what at, for example.

People are actually doing it with safe arrows.


It's not reasonable at all.

Can't see how such definite answer is applicable, especially if it's not really correct.

cheezewizz2000
2010-07-29, 10:11 AM
It can be done with LARP arrows, but they're big and bulky and fired from a bow with a draw weight of <30lbs. Real arrows will have pointed heads and be fired from a bow with draw weights of 50-100lbs, possibly more. Given that your Dex bonus adds to your AC anyway, dodging out of the way of attacks is already covered. If you REALLY want to add it in to (for whatever reason) nerf ranged attacks, then it should be from no closer than half the maximum distance the weapon can be fired. That gives the target a chance to see it coming.

Dodging out of the way of a ray is completely ridiculous - try dodging a laser pen when it is pointed at you, though what having your Dex bonus to these attacks covers is noticing where the wizard is about to point, and not being there. Once he's got an accurate shot off, there's no avoiding it.

Frog Dragon
2010-07-29, 10:14 AM
Dodging out of the way of a ray is completely ridiculous - try dodging a laser pen when it is pointed at you, though what having your Dex bonus to these attacks covers is noticing where the wizard is about to point, and not being there. Once he's got an accurate shot off, there's no avoiding it.
One word. One word only. That word is. Magic.
Anything we find in the real world is just not a fair comparison. We can't really assume it works like a laser when it may work entirely differently. Nothing has been stated about it.

Jack Zander
2010-07-29, 10:14 AM
If you REALLY want to add it in to (for whatever reason) nerf ranged attacks

I'm not looking to nerf them, I'm looking to make them stronger. I never said a character should be able to add twice his Dex to dodging arrows. I said they should be flat-footed against arrows.

Prime32
2010-07-29, 10:19 AM
Even if you can't dodge arrows, you can dodge the bow being aimed. Same thing applies to bullets and a gun, though it's harder.

How realistic is it for someone to dodge a sword?

Spiryt
2010-07-29, 10:19 AM
I'm not looking to nerf them, I'm looking to make them stronger. I never said a character should be able to add twice his Dex to dodging arrows. I said they should be flat-footed against arrows.

Not reasonable at all.

And this would be another attempt at making some part of D&D combat more "realistic" than the system overally is. Too "realistic" for it's own good IMO.


Even if you can't dodge arrows, you can dodge the bow being aimed. Same thing applies to bullets and a gun, though it's harder.

Combination of both would be most obvious, I think. You try to make yourself difficult target, and when arrows launched, you try to adjust yourself too.

Jack Zander
2010-07-29, 10:20 AM
How about this question: how does GURPS do it? They have dodge parry and block options. Which of the three (if any) can you use to block arrows? I have very little knowledge of the system.

Jack Zander
2010-07-29, 10:26 AM
How realistic is it for someone to dodge a sword

I'm not sure if you are being serious or not so I'll assume you are. Sword swings are slow compared to the speed of an arrow. People are able to dodge them all the time by stepping back or twisting their body. When dodging fails, swords are very easily blocked with a shield or parried with another sword. Try watching fencing sometime.

Spiryt
2010-07-29, 10:30 AM
I'm not sure if you are being serious or not so I'll assume you are. Sword swings are slow compared to the speed of an arrow. People are able to dodge them all the time by stepping back or twisting their body. When dodging fails, swords are very easily blocked with a shield or parried with another sword. Try watching fencing sometime.

Eh, except that some parts of the sword can move really fast, and dodging sword would be by default harder,as it's larger object that can maim you with one part of the blade if you get away from the other.

Anyway, more detailed discussion would be 'virtual fencing' rather lame thing, so I would say that making any hard rules would be pointless here, as this is very complicated reality.

Prime32
2010-07-29, 10:30 AM
Except that you don't have to take time drawing an arrow, nocking and aiming. And repeating that last step whenever your target moves.

As for rays, no one said they travel at the speed of light.

Jack Zander
2010-07-29, 10:34 AM
Eh, except that some parts of the sword can move really fast, and dodging sword would be by default harder,as it's larger object that can maim you with one part of the blade if you get away from the other.

Anyway, more detailed discussion would be 'virtual fencing' rather lame thing, so I would say that making any hard rules would be pointless here, as this is very complicated reality.

So if I understand you correctly, you think dodging arrows is easy and dodging swords is difficult?


Except that you don't have to take time drawing an arrow, nocking and aiming. And repeating that last step whenever your target moves.

All that means is that a person can get more sword strikes out in the same time it takes an archer to fire his bow twice. That doesn't mean the strikes are harder to dodge.

Spiryt
2010-07-29, 10:38 AM
So if I understand you correctly, you think dodging arrows is easy and dodging swords is difficult?

No.

I think that it all depends on situation.

Dodging arrows in situation like you described can be, in fact easy.

That said, if someone just stay's in reasonable distance from archer, and tries to dodge is all he does.

And there is no something like "dodging swords".

You can avoid sword strikes depending who strikes, how, and what you personally are doing.

In short, covering it all with some short sentences is completely impossible.

For me, 3.5 handless missiles pretty decently, with minuses to hit for additional range increments from target.

Another_Poet
2010-07-29, 10:43 AM
Isn't this pretty well covered by the fact that you add your Dexterity bonus to AC?

Why add other rules?

Jack Zander
2010-07-29, 10:44 AM
Dodging arrows in situation like you described can be, in fact easy.

I don't think I described a situation. Let's go with this one: Within one range increment of the archer, mid-combat, not sitting there waiting for the archer to fire at him but rather fighting with several other people at the same time. How reasonable is it to dodge an arrow then?


Isn't this pretty well covered by the fact that you add your Dexterity bonus to AC?

Why add other rules?

Because I'm wondering if that's even plausible. Can a person dodge an arrow mid-flight?

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-29, 10:47 AM
If they're within a certain distance from the archer, it would be impossible, because the arrow would reach them in less than the human reaction time (half a second or so). Call that "point blank shot," to make it consistent with current D&D. So if they're within 30 feet, they're flat footed. If they're beyond that, they get their dex and dodge bonuses.

However, do keep in mind that people in D&D are super human, and might have supernaturally good reaction times. A level 20 rogue for instance... you'd expect him to be able to dodge an arrow.

Spiryt
2010-07-29, 10:49 AM
I don't think I described a situation. Let's go with this one: Within one range increment of the archer, mid-combat, not sitting there waiting for the archer to fire at him but rather fighting with several other people at the same time. How reasonable is it to dodge an arrow then?

1. How can I know? Never done such a thing?
2. What arrow? From what bow?
3. What "fighting" means? Some Hollywoodish mettle with people running around swinging stuff, or two lines of people fighting each other?
4. Related - can I just hide behind enemy, or is he keeping me exposed to his buddy archer?

As you see, you can go on like that without end.

In short, making rules of this is pretty pointless, unless you want some eeriely complex "real" system.


Can a person dodge an arrow mid-flight?

In short, yes, person can.

If (s)he sees where it goes at him/her, (s)he can do many things to avoid it, depending what she can or has.

allonym
2010-07-29, 10:49 AM
If people are always flat footed against arrows, it implies that a person with full awareness and the ability to defend themselves is no less likely to get hit than someone caught by surprise, unable to defend themselves, or otherwise incapable of reacting to the attack.

In my opinion and experience, that would be nonsensical.

Whammydill
2010-07-29, 10:53 AM
In a six second round you are determined to be anywhere within that 5'foot square or more squares if you are taking a movement. Its not like two people are just standing there hacking at each other, combat is fluid and moving, standing still (flat-footed) is a death sentence. So your target is moving a lot if already fighting anyway. Hitting a moving target is not simple with a timed and aimed shot, let alone whipping off arrows as fast as you can.

Thats why I believe the rules are fine the way they are in regards to arrows and rays.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-29, 10:56 AM
How realistic is it for a person to see an arrow fired at them and then be able to react in time to dodge it? How about crossbow bolts? Magical rays?

The system already accounts for this by including your Dodge bonus and your Dex mod into your total AC. If you want to be really detailed about it, if the arrow misses a target but would have hit if the target were flat-footed, they dodged.

Earthwalker
2010-07-29, 10:56 AM
I don't think I described a situation. Let's go with this one: Within one range increment of the archer, mid-combat, not sitting there waiting for the archer to fire at him but rather fighting with several other people at the same time. How reasonable is it to dodge an arrow then?

Because I'm wondering if that's even plausible. Can a person dodge an arrow mid-flight?

Simple answer, No.
Can a person make himself harder to be hit by archers firing into the melee that is going on around him. Yes he can.

Adding Dex to AC represents this. In the movment of melee you are going to keep trying to get your opponent between you and the archer.
All this is covered by the rules. The suggestion you have of removing dex bonus to AC for ranged, how does that effect sneak attack ?

Spiryt
2010-07-29, 11:04 AM
Simple answer, No.

Why not?

If arrow is going, say 40 m/s it's not really that fast or hard to spot.

As mentioned people dodge arrows quite often at Larps and reenacting combats.


Hollywoodish dodge isn't needed for anything, simple turtling a bit may be sufficient.

Or if you look like guy on the first spot (http://husyci.w.interia.pl/pliki/husy25.jpg) , yust tucking your arms and bowing your head (that's what kettle hat was useful for, among other things), so hit to the undefended arms or legs is less probable.

In short, all that can already be described in game, and is not included in mechanics, obviously.

Earthwalker
2010-07-29, 11:11 AM
Why not?

If arrow is going, say 40 m/s it's not really that fast or hard to spot.


I was answering with the asumptions that were made within 30 feet of the bow and would be using a 100 lb pull bow not a LARP 10lb.
Of course saying that I am wrong it is possible to still dodge that arrow, I would say it was very difficult.

I have no problems with the DnD rules for adding dex to AC I think that covers making yourself harder to hit / dodgin fine for the system.

I just have little cofidence on consistantly dodging arrows fired from feet away from someone with a powerful bow.

dgnslyr
2010-07-29, 11:11 AM
You don't dodge arrows. You try to avoid having the bow pointed at you for too long. Avoiding arrows happens before the arrow is fired, not after. Armor and a shield gives you a chance to have the hit glance off without doing serious damage, just like with any other non-touch attack.

A ray may seem like it travels at the speed of light, but you still have to point your finger at someone, and at, say, 100ft away, you're not guaranteed to hit someone with your ray attack when the target in question has 25 square feet to move around in.

Spiryt
2010-07-29, 11:31 AM
I was answering with the asumptions that were made within 30 feet of the bow and would be using a 100 lb pull bow not a LARP 10lb.
Of course saying that I am wrong it is possible to still dodge that arrow, I would say it was very difficult.

I have no problems with the DnD rules for adding dex to AC I think that covers making yourself harder to hit / dodgin fine for the system.

I just have little cofidence on consistantly dodging arrows fired from feet away from someone with a powerful bow.

And why assumption that I was talking about LARP one?

Most of serious battle arrows from traditional won't really exceed 55 MAYBE 60 m/s and that's INITIAL velocity.

Some bows, especially composite reflexive asian ones, were able to achieve even 100 m/s but that's not arrow designed to harm but rather target/distance shooting.

Velocities of martial arrows would be similar.

And then there is the rate of slowing, determined by weight, point, fletching etc, but that's too much detail.

In short, in mid flight, 40 m/s would be perfectly normal velocity.

Of course, 30 feet is pretty damn close for dodging, but shooting would rarely occur from such distance, unless it's D&D of course, but even here it's range of move + attack or charge of pretty much any creature.

Lhurgyof
2010-07-29, 11:36 AM
Plus, some people just aren't good at aiming, and everyone can screw up (low rolls).
And it's hard to hit a moving target.

Psyx
2010-07-29, 11:38 AM
"If arrow is going, say 40 m/s it's not really that fast or hard to spot."

In a dark dungeon? Coming straight towards you?

You need at least quarter of a second to react, for a start.


Dex is not used for actively dodging, but someone with a high dex will already be moving, and harder to draw a bead on.

Spiryt
2010-07-29, 11:42 AM
"If arrow is going, say 40 m/s it's not really that fast or hard to spot."

In a dark dungeon? Coming straight towards you?

You need at least quarter of a second to react, for a start.


Dex is not used for actively dodging, but someone with a high dex will already be moving, and harder to draw a bead on.

I agree, I said about circumstances many times.

On the other hand, arrow can be easy to spot, if it will for example glitter for a while because of some light.

Thus as I said, generalizing it all is pretty pointless, I just say that dodging arrow from reasonable distance is possible.

Aside from other, probably more obvious meaning of "AC" or "Dex Ac", like you mentioned.

Glimbur
2010-07-29, 11:44 AM
If they're within a certain distance from the archer, it would be impossible, because the arrow would reach them in less than the human reaction time (half a second or so). Call that "point blank shot," to make it consistent with current D&D. So if they're within 30 feet, they're flat footed. If they're beyond that, they get their dex and dodge bonuses.


This would make rogues using ranged attacks much better than they currently are. Flanking isn't hard, which is why melee is tempting for rogues, but if you can sneak attack on every attack just by being within 30' and using a bow...

Earthwalker
2010-07-29, 11:46 AM
And why assumption that I was talking about LARP one?

I am working on two bases here, how bows work in real life and how they work in DnD.

I am going to tell you what I think and you tell me if I am just being silly.

In real life I have only ever seen a 40 lb pull bow, but back in the day the strength was greater. The general tactic was to fire a mass of arrows into a group of people with an over arching shot. Generally people were hit as your firing lots of arrows at a big group.

Now if an archer stands 50 meters from me and fires a single shot towards me, I think even I could get out of the way of it.

In DnD most combat I have been involved in (well my characters) Bows are used from point blank, fires straight at people. this is where I get firing a bow at 30 feet. I think in that case the arrow would be hard to dodge. (more so as the bows in quetion is uauly a +5 str compond bow, what ever pull that would be)

Ruinix
2010-07-29, 11:51 AM
short answer It can.

long answer. it require full concentration and focus that and only that incoming attack.

so a nice houserule would be the defender can choose lose hit turn to attack and defend from the arrows using weapons for parry or shield for cover. a defender who alredy act that turn is unable to do it.

an unaware defender can't take this action neither.

Spiryt
2010-07-29, 11:54 AM
In DnD most combat I have been involved in (well my characters) Bows are used from point blank, fires straight at people. this is where I get firing a bow at 30 feet. I think in that case the arrow would be hard to dodge. (more so as the bows in quetion is uauly a +5 str compond bow, what ever pull that would be)

As I said, people are doing "arrow dodging" stuff.

I don't know too much details, but again as I said, from 30 feet it would probably really be bloody difficult. Depending on circumstances of course.

But we have adventures just to perform bloody difficult stuff.:smallwink:

Anyway, in real life, and even in D&D to some extent trying to shoot bow, crossbow, sling or whatever from such distance is very risky.

Risk is of course, that when you stay flat and perform not exactly evasive or whatever things like knocking, reloading etc. somebody's going to give you hell of a beating.

But that's not the point here, of course.

Siosilvar
2010-07-29, 11:55 AM
Dodging an arrow, ray, or even a bullet isn't a matter of actually dodging it. It's more of not being where you're expected to be.

Of course, at longer ranges it certainly may be possible to predict the motion of an arrow or ray and move out of the way.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-29, 11:57 AM
Additionally, it is possible for a trained swordsman to actually cut an incoming arrow in half. It was on an episode of myth busters, if I'm not mistaken. The guys couldn't reproduce it in the lab, but their expert (a ninja or something? whatever) was able to do it!

Spiryt
2010-07-29, 12:03 PM
Additionally, it is possible for a trained swordsman to actually cut an incoming arrow in half. It was on an episode of myth busters, if I'm not mistaken. The guys couldn't reproduce it in the lab, but their expert (a ninja or something? whatever) was able to do it!

Hmm... I seem to remember it from Mythbusters, and some other show, the question though is what for?

Doing it requires tremendous concentration, reflex, speed....

If all this is present, all of this can be used in much simpler way, ergo just avoid arrow, or at least deflect it with shield, or even sword.

Cutting it in half is overkill.

Psyx
2010-07-29, 12:10 PM
Additionally, it is possible for a trained swordsman to actually cut an incoming arrow in half. It was on an episode of myth busters, if I'm not mistaken. The guys couldn't reproduce it in the lab, but their expert (a ninja or something? whatever) was able to do it!

We must have been watching a different show, because the one I saw, they had to give it dozens of attempts and very favourable circumstances to even get close.

And it always begs the question: If you're fast enough to swing a sword and probably hit an arrow, then you're fast enough to step aside, so it completely misses... It's essentially an entirely pointless thing to do.

Spiryt
2010-07-29, 12:19 PM
And it always begs the question: If you're fast enough to swing a sword and probably hit an arrow, then you're fast enough to step aside, so it completely misses... It's essentially an entirely pointless thing to do.

Great minds think alike...:smallwink:

:smalltongue:

Jack Zander
2010-07-29, 12:34 PM
So far it seems that most people agree that a point blank shot from a bow is impossible or at least extremely difficult to react to. I read on Myth-buster's website today that arrows don't lose velocity until after 70 feet. So extend point blank range to 70 feet for bows much in the same way Star Wars Saga Edition does it (different ranges for different weapons).

Even though a creature can't dodge a missile coming at him from so close. I think he should still be able to block it with his shield, just by keeping the shield even with the arch of the shot.

Maybe it would help if I explained this a bit more. This isn't actually for DnD. It's for a home-brew system I am making. I thought it would be easier to explain it in DnD terms but I just ended up confusing more people.

Whammydill
2010-07-29, 01:08 PM
The mythbusters arrow-cut was under less than "real" conditions. The bow wasn't allowed to be drawn full, and I don't even think it was anything more than a generic recurve.

If you want to see more realistic conditions represented, look up Isao Machii (or if you wanna be anal, Machii Isao) and look for his arrow-cut demo. This "modern samurai" does amazing feats of swordsmanship. In this demo it shows at length the tiny reaction time the swordsman has to achieve a cut on an arrow in flight.

Basically, Isao Machii is O'chul personified.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-29, 01:22 PM
We must have been watching a different show, because the one I saw, they had to give it dozens of attempts and very favourable circumstances to even get close.

And it always begs the question: If you're fast enough to swing a sword and probably hit an arrow, then you're fast enough to step aside, so it completely misses... It's essentially an entirely pointless thing to do.

The point being, yes you can dodge an arrow.