[Optimize] Deadly Bow using class

[SylvanPrincess]

There is a new campaign coming up, and ive gone thru and tossed out about a bakers dozen class ideas. my newest one id like to explore is the Order of the Bow Initiate.

ive only thought about it briefly, but im thinking elf ranger racial sub levels AND elf pally racial sub level (both in races of the wild), for ranged smiting and elf favored enemy.

Elf Ranger 2/Elf Paladin 3/OotBI 10

the other thought is adding 2 levels of swordsage in there for wis to ac in light armor.

appreciate any and all thoughts - and apologize if this thread is in the wrong forum

~katy

[The Glyphstone]

I believe it depends on if you're using the 3.0 OotBI or the 3.5. For the former, it's good. The latter, the best way to optimize it is to not take any levels in the class...archers desperately need full attacks to compete damage-wise, and the Initiate's precision damage is a trap.

[Human Paragon 3]

Agreed. 3.5 order of the bow initiate is a complete trap. Don't take it without significant house rules.

[Tinydwarfman]

Nope, this is the perfect forum. Unfortunately what Glyphstone said is true. Order of the Bow Initiate is just terrible. The 3.0 one was decent, but they gave it a senseless nerf. What exactly are you trying to go with for character concept? We could help you find a better PrC.

[SylvanPrincess]

is it because its a standard action to use precision shot?

the idea was to make a holy ranged character using the 2 aforementioned racial variants. hmm... good point about it being nerfed, damn! lol

ok, im withdrawing the bow initiate idea. lol, thought i had something there!

[The Glyphstone]

Exactly. Mundane characters cannot compete damage-wise without the ability to full-attack.

The classic archery build is a Scout/Ranger with Swift Hunter.

[Human Paragon 3]

I used it once and it was good, but I was using a rifle that you can't full attack with anyway. It was a home brewed musket that dealt 3d8 (to make up for the lack of full attacks).

Your basic idea actually sounds cool, though.

Why don't you try:

Elf Ranger 2/Elf Paladin 3/Cleric X with Zen Archery to make you fully wisdom focused. Use the cleric spells to buff your self and then fire away!

or

Elf Ranger 2/Elf Paladin 3/Scout X with Swift Hunter.

[Tinydwarfman]

Elf Ranger 2/Elf Paladin 3/Scout X with Swift Hunter.

This works much better with a dip in scout and going full ranger than the other way round. 4 Scout/16 Ranger is the standard.

[Human Paragon 3]

This is true. I was trying to leave her entry intact, though I'm not really sure why...

Ranger 2/Paladin 3/Scout 4/Ranger X would do the trick.

There's probably a feat somewhere that lets ranger and paladin levels stack for smite, though I'm not positive.

[SylvanPrincess]

zen archery is a neat idea, i hadnt thought of that. that raises an interesting question, what about dropping the ranger, and making an elf paladin bow user? a heavy armor bow user sounds cool, but idk lol

both of these builds u posted look good, i used a scout build once, and it was nice, but annoying to always move 10 feet first

[Lhurgyof]

I'd check out Masters of the Wild. They have some decent stuff in there.

[SylvanPrincess]

There's probably a feat somewhere that lets ranger and paladin levels stack for smite, though I'm not positive.

if this is the case, sign me up! lol

i have killer numbers, 17 16 16 14 10 9 +6 to distribute because the dm rolls a d6 and lets us add spread it out (max 18)

but i think theyre too powerful, and may decline the +6

[The Glyphstone]

What are the Elf substitution levels doing for your build?

[Tinydwarfman]

Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0). It's not finished, but it has a lot of really good info.

[The Random NPC]

There's probably a feat somewhere that lets ranger and paladin levels stack for smite, though I'm not positive.

The Devoted Tracker feat from Complete Adventurer lets your ranger and paladin levels stack for smited evil damage. Not sure how good the rest of the feat is though...

[Human Paragon 3]

Devoted Tracker from Complete Adventurer lets ranger levels stack with paladin levels for smite damage, but not uses per day. It also stacks for wild empathy, and lets you combine your animal companion and mount into one super mount if you have both class features. Not bad!

With your stats, you probably don't even need zen archery, though. You can afford high wis and high dex.

[tyckspoon]

if this is the case, sign me up! lol

i have killer numbers, 17 16 16 14 10 9 +6 to distribute because the dm rolls a d6 and lets us add spread it out (max 18)

but i think theyre too powerful, and may decline the +6

You're trying to build a ranged Paladin. Take what you can get, d00d- you need every advantage you can find, and you need those stats.

[SylvanPrincess]

What are the Elf substitution levels doing for your build?

the elf pally substitution levels give me ranged smite, aura of freedom at level 3. if i wanted to go to level 5 it grants a unicorn mount. as for the ranger sub levels it might not be as good, but at level 1 it gets elf favored enemy which gives an extra +2 to move sliently, hide, listen, spot and survial checks against the elves racial enemies (humanoid (orc), undead, and servants of lloth (drow, montrous spiders of all sizes and driders). at level 4 it gets an elvan hound companion- a pretty robust creature indeed :) and at level 10 it get strongheart slayer, +4 on will saves vsdrow and driders, and +4 on fort saves against monstrous spider venom.

its the pally sub levels i really like, and with the devoted tracker feat, this could be pretty cool

[Human Paragon 3]

Yeah, looking at that, I wouldn't go nuts on the elf ranger substitution levels. Maybe start out ranger/paladin and then just stick with paladin after that. If you want to get animal companion benefits on your unicorn, then maybe a few extra ranger levels to trigger the devoted tracker could be worth it. At that point your unicorn could get extremely buff from all the bonuses. Then you could do the mounted archery thing.

[The Glyphstone]

That's actually a fairly good choice, the Pally substitution at least. I'd go with Paladin 5/Scout 3/Ranger 12 then, taking Swift Hunter and Devoted Tracker. You're a bit weaker at range than a Scout 3/Ranger 17 (losing +1d6/+1 Skirmish overall), and one Favored Enemy boost, but you make out with Ranged Smite and a fairly decent special mount companion instead of the rather weak default pally mount or atrocious ranger AC. Don't bother with the ranger substitutions though. The probem is that you only get one or two Smites per day, so a feat spent on Extra Smiting might be necessary to warrant the deficit.

[Human Paragon 3]

Except she doesn't want Scout because she just played one.

Do look into feats that enhance your smite, though, as it is the main advantage you'll have over an archery ranger.

[Morph Bark]

Cragtop Archer could work well for you perhaps, especially if you have a caster in the party capable of divinations.

[Ruinix]

hi there katy.

i has been using an archer char for the last 2 and half years, here is what i learn from it.

__

for the scout experience u have before, is that PC a melee pc? cause skirmish for a melee is annoying like u said, but for a ranged one isn't "that bad" beside is good for matain the safe distance from the enemy.

__


u need damage, a lot, so the best way is full volley attacks. u can add some precision damage to it and some mobility cause an archer in melee range its almost a dead PC XDDD.

u want a "holy" archer lets see.

archer PC.

2 Mystic ranger (DR 336 p 105) / 2 Paladin variant, Smiting Arrow (DR349 p93) / 1 Cloisted Cleric / 4 Scout / 8 Mystic Ranger / 3 Scout

easy to go easy to use :D

mystic ranger give good spellcast advance in exchange of late combat styles and animal companion.

Pali variant give the same of elf racial variant but don't force u to take elf race, if DR material is available then go for it and take Human for race and take the feat able learner at lev 1.

Cloisted Cleric from uncharted arcana. give domain bonuses wich can take travel domain for take 10' instead 5' and make full volley, and with cloisted u can "refuel" the domain burning turn undead attempt. further more, Knowledge Domain can be trade for knowlege devotion feat for neat +5/+5 to hit and damage :D

Scout, Skirmish damage sweet thing for more damage

now for feats.

Point Blank Shot is prereq. for everything ¬¬
Precise Shot
Swift Hunter (CSco p81) stack Scout and Ranger levels for determine favored enemy damage and Sk damage, plus make your Fv.E. able to such of damage even if they are inmune to Sk, like undeads and constructs.
Devoted Tracker (CAdv p107) stack ranger and pali level for determine Smite Evil damage.

those are a must.

item. archery is item dependent a lot.

must.
-*cliky* with divine power, for bab ^^.

enhancements for the weapon

-Splitting +3 (is expensive but double ur damage to damn sweet for an archer.) (Champions of the Ruin p.42)
-Force +2 (lower 1 dice tipe but bypass ANY DR and WINDWALL ^^ plus hit perfect any incorporeal or ethreal target.) (MIC p.35)
-Mighty (autoajust the STR mod of the bow to damage, perfect for that +6 of divine power)

Elhona Quiver (MIC) can store a lot of arrows and pull out any of them without mistakes.


i hope dont forget anything here.

if u want crosbow char with scout outpass in damage any archer build weilding dual hand crossbow and extend the skirmish range to 60' with the feat crosbow sniper. the "look" is more like a western gunslinger XDD but let's say u use a "rain coat" and it look awesome jumping dodging and firing at 2 hands XD.

edit:

crap almost forgot to add..

feat:

Deadeye Shot but the Dragon Compendium (of dragonlance) version cause the PH2 version completly sux. (dragon compendium p95)

this version let u add ur Dex bonus to Damage with a ranged attack ^^ neat.

the DC pre.req. say BAB +14, but the errata correct this to just +1.


and if, again the DR mat. is avaible, 1 lev dip of fighter Targeteer variant (DR310 p38) with give the same, dex to damage, wich can add twice for 2 diferents features ^^ (having this and the deadeye feat)

[SylvanPrincess]

alas, we cant use any magazines. and also, only 3 classes + 1 prc allowed in a build, and only if the 3 makes sense together. for example, a barbarian wizard makes no sense, but a barb sorc might be allowed

the scout i used was the dragoon build found on wizards. scout/psychic warrior/blade dancer or something. was fun, but i was the only one flexing my cross-classing muscles, so my one friend complained

[Urpriest]

alas, we cant use any magazines. and also, only 3 classes + 1 prc allowed in a build, and only if the 3 makes sense together. for example, a barbarian wizard makes no sense, but a barb sorc might be allowed

What about the famous Rage Mage?! One of the more hilarious prestige classes that doesn't have Bear in its name.

[The Glyphstone]

alas, we cant use any magazines. and also, only 3 classes + 1 prc allowed in a build, and only if the 3 makes sense together. for example, a barbarian wizard makes no sense, but a barb sorc might be allowed

the scout i used was the dragoon build found on wizards. scout/psychic warrior/blade dancer or something. was fun, but i was the only one flexing my cross-classing muscles, so my one friend complained

He complains because you make use of the rules he (your friend, the DM) allowed? Or because you made use of the rules the DM allowed while he (your friend, the player) didn't make use of them?

And a Barbarian Wizard can absolutely make sense, if you work it right.
-Former tribal warrior, who left his people/had them wiped out, moved to the city, learned to read, and decided to take up wizardry. He doesn't actively practice martial combat anymore (maybe he was a bit weedy), but he can still tap into his primal fury.
-Or, the other way around, a bookish, intellectual wizard who was injured while exploring the wilderness and got amnesia - a barbarian tribe found him and took him in, raising the stranger as one of them. Eventually, he regained his memories and his ability to cast spells, but he had still spent too much time as one of the tribe to forget what he had learned there.

Pretty much anything can be justified if you're creative enough.:smallcool:

[faceroll]

if this is the case, sign me up! lol

i have killer numbers, 17 16 16 14 10 9 +6 to distribute because the dm rolls a d6 and lets us add spread it out (max 18)

but i think theyre too powerful, and may decline the +6

Sweet rolls! For a ranger, I would go with all the high attributes; they need them!

You may want to check out the ranger variants from some dragon magazine. Crystalkeep.com has a summary of the classes. The basic gist of the particular ranger variant you should check out is you delay class ability progression for a level and get spell casting like a bard. Champions of Ruin and Spell Compendium have some VERY nice ranger spells that can add a ton of oomph to a ranger, such as a 1st level spell that turns your next hit into a crit, or a spell that doubles the number of arrows you shoot.

At 4th level, you can pick up a feat from champions of valor that lets you learn and prepare wizard spells in your ranger slots!

Of course, you're going to want high dex so you can land hits, decent str so you can use a str rated bow, decent con so you don't die fast, and a decent wis and int for spell casting.

Other feats you may be interested in, for getting a good pet, would be Natural Bond (now you get an animal companion as a druid!) and Wild Cohort. Wild Cohort will stack with your animal companion ability, so you get a double tough pet. Throw the warbeast template on there for a few more str, HP, and a bonus HD.

I would, of course, spend my first to feats on point blank shot and precise shot. The rules for shooting into melee pretty much cripple any archer build until rather late in the game, imo.

[Ruinix]

alas, we cant use any magazines. and also, only 3 classes + 1 prc allowed in a build, and only if the 3 makes sense together. for example, a barbarian wizard makes no sense, but a barb sorc might be allowed

the scout i used was the dragoon build found on wizards. scout/psychic warrior/blade dancer or something. was fun, but i was the only one flexing my cross-classing muscles, so my one friend complained

ok katy. some questions. what u want for this archer ? what is more important ?

1- archer line and TO HIT, wich is heavly feat intensive.

2- holy flavored line wich can be more flavored with full divine caster.

we can do it in both ways but will be efective in both areas in mid/high lev, also u should know, the "martial" archer is efective till mid lev at most, while the caster archer is efective from mid to up and its goes grow stronger every CL.

what would be the range level of play with this char? from what lev till more or less what level ? and what kind of rol should be fit beside the range attack ?

-need to be tracker ?
-need to be second healer?
-trapfinder?
-skill monkey? / just social skill monkey ?

[hamishspence]

Wasn't there a fairly good archer prestige class in Silver Marches? 3.0, but didn't really have updating issues.

[Ruinix]

Wasn't there a fairly good archer prestige class in Silver Marches? 3.0, but didn't really have updating issues.

for speak the true there isn't any good archer PrC, just some situational good PrC.

Cragtop is one if what u really want is shot an arrow 2 miles away but u fall in the lack of "perception" for aim so....
Order of the bow Initiated 3.0 is good but situational again.
Dragon stalker another good one, but situational.
Darkwood Stalker for snipers.
Exotic Weapon Master for martial archers.
and so on.

straight ranger/scout is good too, specially id Mystic Ranger is allowed cause full CL till lev 5 and bonus spell slots with the Spell Book compendium is too good to let pass.

lets see just a little peek of what i saying..

lev 1.
-AoO with bow ^^
-no penalty on extended range for shot, casted as swift (perfect for killing enemies in escape)
-nat 20 XD for just 1 shot wich can be combined with many shot ^^

lev2.
-scent. specially good if u r tracking ^^

lev4.
-arrow storm. swift. shot everyone in bow range. i love it.