If the cause is just...

[Ichneumon]

So, I've been watching a lot of Star Trek recently.... (God, what a terrible way to start a thread, isn't it?)

Anyway, I saw one episode that started me thinking on something. It was an episode in which Captain Picard faces a Romulan ship and he's outnumbered. The Romulan commander demands Picard to surrender the Enterprise or face destruction. Picard says he'd rather die then surrender. The Romulan Commander reminds Picard of his crew, who'd he send to their death if he didn't surrender. Then Picard say something along the line of "if the cause is just, my men are prepared to die" or something like that.

Now, this got me thinking... What are the required characteristics of a situation to make you be prepared to sacrifice your life for a cause?

What would be necessary for you to die (or sacrifice a lot) for your ideals?

Would people have to know about what you sacrificed?

Would something of you have to remain... I mean would you be willing to sacrifice yourself if you knew that there wouldn't be any trace of you left in the world and no one would ever know that you existed and sacrificed a lot?

Would you be willing to die together with your crew, when you'd know that individually your sacrifice would add nothing to the outcome of whatever your're dealing with or would you try to escape and let them alone make the sacrifice?

The answers on these questions are, I realize, very much dependent on the situation and the context, but I still think these are interesting questions, nevertheless.

[thubby]

there's a lot I'd sacrifice myself for, friends, family, justice.

i wouldn't need to gain any sort of fame or anything, but I definitely wouldn't do it if i didn't think it would change anything.

[Winthur]

If my cause is just, my will is strong and my gun is very very large, I'd probably consider sacrificing my life in order to save the world. DYNAMITE!

...Dunno, really.

I don't love anything enough to do that.

Perhaps wouldn't need any fame since I am, well, dead.

[Blue Ghost]

I would like to think that I would sacrifice myself for my friends, for a good cause, or simply because it's the right thing to do. But who knows what evil lurks in the heart of man?
If I were to sacrifice myself, I definitely would not need to be acknowledged. I am not living for the praise of man, after all.

[Recaiden]

But who knows what evil lurks in the heart of man?

The Shadow knows!
>.>
<.<
Sorry.

Now, it would be a lot easier to sacrifice myself with the whole crew of the ship than all alone.
Now, I'm not sure Picard's cause was just, and I'd be rather annoyed that he got us all killed.
I'd like to be remembered, but it isn't really necessary. Death isn't a bad thing of itself, and so if I have a good reason, I'm content to pass completely.
To die for an ideal, I'd have to be sure it would change a lot.
To die to protect someone, a lot less. Though I'd have to approve of the person, or for them to be more needed.

[Brewdude]

To the original poster:

Go buy yourself a used copy of The Boomer Bible (http://www.amazon.com/Boomer-Bible-R-F-Laird/dp/1563050757/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1280439312&sr=1-1) by R.F. Laird

The third part deals exactly with this topic.

[pendell]

Now, this got me thinking... What are the required characteristics of a situation to make you be prepared to sacrifice your life for a cause?


Fundamentally, I would need to be laying down my life for people I was protecting. A firefighter, a police officer, a lifeguard , a soldier all have the same basic mission. The strong have an obligation to protect the weak; why else are they strong?

Another possibility is for some conviction so important it is worth risking one's life for. Martyrdom in its classic sense, standing up for truth in a world given over to following a lie. Knowing when it's time to stand up and take your lumps for contradicting the conventional wisdom, and when it's better just to shut up and let it go by ... well, that's a very difficult judgement call.



What would be necessary for you to die (or sacrifice a lot) for your ideals?


To me, ideals can be divided between "non-essential" (things I can compromise on) and "essential" (things that are bedrock truths I cannot compromise without utterly compromising my integrity).

A person who doesn't recognize non-essential ideals is a very stubborn, difficult person to get along with and they tend not to adapt well. A person who HAS no firm principles at all is a chameleon. I try to strive for a balance.

EXACTLY which principles I consider sacrosanct, and why, is a religious question I cannot answer in the discussion forum. PM for a detailed answer.





Would people have to know about what you sacrificed?


No. I would never give my life simply to win applause from a crowd, therefore their knowledge of my sacrifice is irrelevant.



Would something of you have to remain... I mean would you be willing to sacrifice yourself if you knew that there wouldn't be any trace of you left in the world and no one would ever know that you existed and sacrificed a lot?


No.

Skirting the religious issue here ... there are no guarantees about afterlife. I know what I believe, and I know what I've been promised, but I have no hard-core, honest-to-goodness, reliable SCIENTIFIC proof of what happens to human beings after death. I have to accept the possibility that when I die NOTHING will be left of me.

But some things are still worth that cost.



Would you be willing to die together with your crew, when you'd know that individually your sacrifice would add nothing to the outcome of whatever your're dealing with or would you try to escape and let them alone make the sacrifice?


Die with my crew. It is not a right thing to ask a crew to make a sacrifice you aren't willing to make yourself. Leaders go in front and set the example. And if a leader is running for his life and trying to save his skin, why should his followers do anything else?




The answers on these questions are, I realize, very much dependent on the situation and the context, but I still think these are interesting questions, nevertheless.

I can answer this very simply.

Why would I sacrifice my life, even with the possibility that it might mean annihilation? Or eternal misery in some hell?

The short, simple answer is love.

Love of something GREATER than myself.

Love of something I count of more worth than my own life, or my own physical safety.

It could be my family.
It could be my country.
It could be my ideals.

But LOVE. The belief that what I am laying down my life for is worth the sacrifice. That there is something out there so important, so beautiful, so lovely that it is better that I die than that this thing perish.

That's why I would lay down my life.

ETA: Horatius, several thousand years ago, said it best: (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lays_of_Ancient_Rome/Horatius)



"To every man upon this earth
Death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better
Than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers,
And the temples of his gods,

And for the tender mother
Who dandled him to rest,
And for the wife who nurses
His baby at her breast,
And for the holy maidens
Who feed the eternal flame,
To save them from false Sextus
That wrought the deed of shame?"




Respectfully,

Brian P.

[SurlySeraph]

Being highly utilitarian, I'd have to believe that more good would be done if I died than if I didn't. If I was publicly visible and therefore showing the courage to die for my beliefs would inspire people, I'd be inclined to die for my beliefs. If I was being threatened by someone alone, I wouldn't.

There are plenty more situations where I'd be willing to die as an expression of my beliefs than for the symbolism of standing for my beliefs; I'd gladly take a bullet for any of the many people I consider more useful than myself, and I'd be willing to take the blame for mistakes they made.

I feel that being willing to sacrifice yourself in such a way that no trace of you is left and no one will ever know what you did is the noblest possible act. But I think it's not often the most useful possible act, and I'd have to be very certain that a lot of good would be done by my death to go through with it; just to stand up for my beliefs wouldn't be a sufficient reason.

A good leader leads by example. I'd have to ask the crew whether they wanted me to live on to lead others or wanted me to die with them; no matter how much good I thought it would do, it would be very hard for me to leave them to die in my place. Even though it would be the most utilitarian course of action (at least one person is saved), I couldn't bring myself to do that without knowing that a majority of the crew thought it was the right decision.

[Player_Zero]

Is that a question you can actually ask of someone? How are they supposed to know what they'd die for without it being tested?

[RabbitHoleLost]

Is that a question you can actually ask of someone? How are they supposed to know what they'd die for without it being tested?

I have to say I actually agree with Player Zero for once.
I'd like to think I would die for certain things, but, really, once in the face of death, who knows what I would actually do?
Death is a scary thing, and, unless faced with it, none of us can really say..

[Cealocanth]

Good question.

If the bad guy would actually be hindered or stopped by my sacrifice and (insert one of the below)

My religion, my family.

My avatar may be someone who would sacrifice himself for whatever evil cause comes onto his doorstep, but I'd rather hinder them and live than die with no effect.

[Lord Raziere]

I have to say I actually agree with Player Zero for once.
I'd like to think I would die for certain things, but, really, once in the face of death, who knows what I would actually do?
Death is a scary thing, and, unless faced with it, none of us can really say..

agreed, for all we know we could just be a bunch of poseurs who boast how they would do great things if the situation came up, but when we do actually get into a situation where we face death.....we could all just be cowards, which is not that bad of a thing and I believe that it is better to live to good another day if it means a little cowardice

[Cheetah109]

Interesting...

I don't think there is a single thing out there that I would sacrifice my life for. Not friends, not family, not a nation. It's not that I don't care, but rather that I don't care ENOUGH. Maybe because of fear (thinking of dying always gives me the heebie jeebies), or maybe because I'm selfish, but I just wouldn't want to sacrifice my life.

If a person, cause, or nation dies I can move on. So knowing that, I don't think I'd be up for it. The most likely driving force behind me sacrificing myself right now is the possibility of people knowing I could have saved something and resenting me for not doing it.

I think I may be a terrible person.

[Killer Angel]

I'd like to think I would die for certain things, but, really, once in the face of death, who knows what I would actually do?
Death is a scary thing, and, unless faced with it, none of us can really say..

I like to think that I certainly could sacrifice my life for my childrens. And my wife.

Other cases? I don't know, probably not.

[pendell]

agreed, for all we know we could just be a bunch of poseurs who boast how they would do great things if the situation came up, but when we do actually get into a situation where we face death.....we could all just be cowards, which is not that bad of a thing and I believe that it is better to live to good another day if it means a little cowardice

It cuts both ways. It's one thing for people to say there is nothing they will lay down their lives for ... but then again, they may not have yet seen their six month old daughter trapped in a burning building.

Sometimes you don't know what you really care about until you're threatened with its loss.

It may be that some here are better than they think they are ... and some are worse.

Until we're tested, we don't know for sure.

But I think this conversation still has value. Sometimes it's better to have thought about these things in advance, because when the actual event occurs you could very well freeze, indecisively, if you haven't thought about it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Nomrom]

I can answer this very simply.

Why would I sacrifice my life, even with the possibility that it might mean annihilation? Or eternal misery in some hell?

The short, simple answer is love.

Love of something GREATER than myself.

Love of something I count of more worth than my own life, or my own physical safety.

It could be my family.
It could be my country.
It could be my ideals.

But LOVE. The belief that what I am laying down my life for is worth the sacrifice. That there is something out there so important, so beautiful, so lovely that it is better that I die than that this thing perish.

That's why I would lay down my life.
Respectfully,

Brian P.

This is pretty much what I wanted to say, but you put it better than I can. I believe I would be completely willing to die for the things in this life that I love more than myself. Namely, my family, my friends, my nation, and my God.


Is that a question you can actually ask of someone? How are they supposed to know what they'd die for without it being tested?

Actually, I think dying for a cause can a lot of times be easier than living for that cause.

[Xyk]

Actually, I think dying for a cause can a lot of times be easier than living for that cause.

Until you've tried both, there is no way you can say that for sure.

[RandomNPC]

Is that a question you can actually ask of someone? How are they supposed to know what they'd die for without it being tested?

without testing, I'll tell you I'd go for family, beleifs, and a few friends, but if it's not to save a life, it's got to be seriously important, life is sacred.

[Bouregard]

Makes me wonder why noone quoted Rincewind from the Discworld yet:


"But there are causes worth dying for," said Butterfly.

"No, there aren't! Because you've only got one life but you can pick up another five causes on any street corner!"

"Good grief, how can you live with a philosophy like that?"

Rincewind took a deep breath.

"Continuously!"

I have to agree with him. Didn't encounter a single cause worth dying for.

[Quincunx]

It's suicides all the way down. Otherwise you personally wouldn't've gotten to choose, no? Problem is, suicide isn't self-obliteration--without outside influence, the suicide continues to stagger on as though the attempt failed--and so would not unleash the requisite power in most situations. You'd need outside collaboration to capture and channel the sacrifice.

If the cause is just? Justice isn't enough. Justice is, worse, a fluid concept. (Have you ever tried to work out when the scales of justice are balanced in a society with blood-prices? Hint: Never, once humans begin to pay blood-price.) I demand to quench my essence for a reason that won't ever shift back and negate it--something eternal like beauty. Even then, there's substitutes. What point is it mixing the mortar with fresh blood of a single sacrificial human when the entire building can be furnished gorgeously out of a plague pit two hundred years old?

[pendell]

Makes me wonder why noone quoted Rincewind from the Discworld yet:



I have to agree with him. Didn't encounter a single cause worth dying for.

The problem with this approach is that there are plenty of people in fantasy and the real world who have this simple approach to life:

"Do what I want or I will kill you."

Or "Power comes from the barrel of a gun", to quote the Little Red Book.

Since there are people in the world willing to kill to get their way, it follows that resisting such people requires a willingness to risk one's life.

IMO, people who are willing to die for nothing are ultimately people who can be bullied. For example, I can't *make* you dig a trench for a mile -- I can only threaten you with pain or death if you refuse. By contrast, a person who is willing to die for something is in a sense a free person, because while they can be killed they can NOT be forced to give up their convictions. They can submit willingly, or they can be killed, but they can NOT have their beliefs taken from them. In a sense they possess the ability to escape from a cage or book of rules I would force on them, because when they refuse to comply and I kill them, there's nothing more I can do to them.

In the end, cowards and the brave share the same fate. So why not be brave? You'll at least be able to look yourself in the mirror for the rest of your life, however short that may be.

Let me turn it around: There are people here for whom nothing is worth dying for. So? What exactly are you LIVING for? What's so darn special about life that you're willing to keep it at any cost? Is it really true that you're willing to sacrifice honor, family, friends, the truth, your innermost firm beliefs, to hold onto your life?

Why, exactly? It's not like you're going to keep it. And as a wise man once said "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."

The righteous act, the excellent deed, is IMO a mark on the entire universe that may echo long after the breath in our bodies stops. But our physical lives? Is it really so important to hang onto it, so that in 60 or 80 years of running from Death he catches up to us anyway, when we're old and can't see and the sex equipment doesn't work anymore?

I am probably going to be forced to die in bed. But given the choice, I'd prefer to meet death face-to-face in a worthy cause than spend sixty or eighty years fleeing like Rincewind and be caught in the end anyway like a mouse in a glue trap. Since I have to die anyway, better to die like a man than a squeaking, terrified rat.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Xefas]

I'd watch the world burn down around me and everyone I know and love die before I'd sacrifice myself. I'm not sacrificing myself for a chemical reaction in my brain telling me I love something. I'm not sacrificing myself for a construct society has created and dubbed "justice". I'm not sacrificing myself for "life" even though men have called it "sacred" while they spray poison on roaches and rip weeds out of their lawn.

My life, my consciousness, my own self-identified existence is the only thing I can be sure of that exists, and thus it is the most important thing in the world.

[Coidzor]

Now, this got me thinking... What are the required characteristics of a situation to make you be prepared to sacrifice your life for a cause?


A situation in which suicidal actions are the only or the only legitimate response. It's as simple as that.

If there's another way to achieve one's aims, only a fool who can't see it will die for no reason.

If it's time to die, it's time to die, the only question is whether we'd have the brass to risk it being called of us in the first place.

[Mx.Silver]

It's suicides all the way down. Otherwise you personally wouldn't've gotten to choose, no? Problem is, suicide isn't self-obliteration--without outside influence, the suicide continues to stagger on as though the attempt failed--and so would not unleash the requisite power in most situations. You'd need outside collaboration to capture and channel the sacrifice.
Well obviously, if you're dying for a cause. That's pretty much taken for granted, and I doubt anyone is assuming that a 'martyrdom sacrifice' (defined here as a when you choose death in the hopes of it aiding the progress of a social/political/cultural cause or movement) would be of any real point in a social vacuum. Your statement however completely fails to take into account cases such as the soldier who throws himself onto a grenade to save his comrades, or the mother who pushes the child out of the way of the oncoming bus even though she knows she will be struck down instead. Unless of your course you want to claim that the saved individuals continuing to live their lives afterward counts as 'outside collaboration', but that runs the risk of stretching your term's definition into meaningless.



If the cause is just? Justice isn't enough. Justice is, worse, a fluid concept. (Have you ever tried to work out when the scales of justice are balanced in a society with blood-prices? Hint: Never, once humans begin to pay blood-price.)
Justice is an ideal. Similar to things like peace and freedom. The fact that for all practical purposes it can never be fully achieved doesn't make them anything less worth striving for.


I demand to quench my essence for a reason that won't ever shift back and negate it--something eternal like beauty.
Bad example here. Standards of beauty are quite strongly influenced by culture and can be just as fluid as implementations of justice.


Even then, there's substitutes. What point is it mixing the mortar with fresh blood of a single sacrificial human when the entire building can be furnished gorgeously out of a plague pit two hundred years old?
Because it would make the sacrificial human happy?

[Recaiden]

Until you've tried both, there is no way you can say that for sure.

There are few things one can say for sure. But one can estimate, plan, imagine, predict, and come up with something that will be close to reality.

[Mauve Shirt]

I'd like to think I could give up my life for the people I love, but as others have said, until I'm faced with such a decision I can't possibly know how I'd act. Honestly, I'd probably behave like a coward.

[Mr.Moron]

Klondike Bar

[leper0messiah]

now personally I just wanna say Picard was trying (and succeeding) to be a badass:smallcool:

but if someone asked me that question that you have just asked me, I think the answer to the question that you have asked would be...this is getting too confusing

I wouldn't die for a "just cause" except for certain circumstances. For instance, I wouldn't die for elven rights only because there's a lot more I can do alive then dead.
However I would die to save a boatload of people, only because other lives are at stake.

When it comes down to it, if I have to die for people to live I will die, but if I have to die to make a point...then I'm gettin in that escape pod and jettisoning outta that starship.

[Coidzor]

Klondike Bar

I laughed.

[Xyk]

Klondike Bar

This made my evening. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: