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Noodles2375
2010-07-29, 11:31 AM
A PC in a 1-2 shot adventure wants to play a Lizardfolk Favored Soul of their Scaly Deity, but got really turned off when he saw the LA + racial HD. The rest of the party is a Lesser Aasimar Paladin/Wilder, a human unarmed swordsage, and a Elf Ranger/Scout. They are going to start at level 6.

I looked over the race details, and it seems like if you ignore the +5 natural armor bonus, the actual lizardfolk race isn't that powerful.

If I mod'd it to cut the racial hit die (and associated racial BAB, feats, skills), but left the flavorful stuff i.e. holding breath, the tail, the wimpy natural weapons, and the stat mods do you think this would be fairly balanced? Since the lizardfolk race contributes almost nothing to the Favored Soul's casting abilities, and eats CL, I figured that this should be no more powerful than a straight LA +0 Favored Soul. Do you think this would be balanced?

Lhurgyof
2010-07-29, 11:32 AM
Hmm, I agree in cutting off the Racial Hit dice.
As for the level adjustment? It's only +1, isn't it?

I'd say drop the RHD, keep the LA, but let him buy it off.

Yora
2010-07-29, 11:35 AM
I use lizardfolk with 2 racial HD, but LA +0.
In any way, having both racial HD and LA is too much for this race, they are not that strong.

Noodles2375
2010-07-29, 11:44 AM
Yora,

If you're keeping the racial HD, would you keep the natural armor bonus also?

I'm strongly leaning towards 0 RHD, and an LA buyoff. Based on the SRD table,
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm

I'm thinking that I'll just start him as level 5 with only 2000 XP to go before he gets to 6.

Yora
2010-07-29, 11:53 AM
Yes, they keep everything, but they just have LA+0.

I compared some 1st level lizardfolk fighter builds with 3rd level human fighter builds, and they come out pretty similar. However, a 1st level lizardfolk fighter compared to a 4th level human fighter is clearly weaker. So I think using to racial HD and LA +0 seems quite fair.
However, this only applies if the lizardfolk character is a straight melee character. If it's a spellcaster, the lizardfolk with 2 racial HD is much weaker than a human without. But then again, keeping the LA +1 only makes them even worse spellcasters.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-07-29, 12:15 PM
But then again, keeping the LA +1 only makes them even worse spellcasters.

1 LA that can be (and will be, according to Noodles) bought off is worse than 2 Racial HD that can never be bought off? :smallconfused:

Yora
2010-07-29, 12:16 PM
No. LA plus HD is worse than only HD.

Frog Dragon
2010-07-29, 12:23 PM
For a favored soul, he'd wan't the LA instead of RHD. I say, let him have it at LA 1.

Eldan
2010-07-29, 12:27 PM
If you really want to scale them down, make them +2 Con, -2 Int, Hold Breath, 2 claws and +1 natural armour. For more natural armour, RHD or LA would have to come in, probably.

Noodles2375
2010-07-29, 03:20 PM
hahaha

"Scale" them down eh :)

Ernir
2010-07-29, 03:27 PM
For a 1HD (which is switched out for a class level, of course) Lizardfolk, check out the Poison Dusk Lizardfolk in MM3. Still LA +1, but at least it isn't stuck with racial HD.

Darrin
2010-07-29, 04:05 PM
Neraph (Planar Handbook) are also pretty lizard-ish. LA +0, and they have the full outsider type, so they're proficient with all martial weapons. Keep an eye out for Alter Self/Poly-cheese.

Skaven
2010-07-29, 04:46 PM
I'd say drop the RHD, keep the LA, but let him buy it off.

This.

Let him keep it all but the LA, you won't really have much if any balance problem. Its not like he's playing a human wizard or anything else unbalanced.. :P

Fax Celestis
2010-07-29, 05:32 PM
My lizardfolk are on the high end of LA+0, low end of LA+1: d20r has a higher standard for base races than 3.5, but they're compatible. You could probably let him use it with LA+0 and call it a day, but if you're concerned with cheesery, then slap an LA +1 on it and be done.

Powerfamiliar
2010-07-29, 06:15 PM
In my experience LA buyoff doesn't really tend to work that well in one off adventures. Either the xp lost means he will be one level bellow the party anyways, or he will be the same level with a more powerful race than the rest of the party. Works great in long campaigns though.

Sindri
2010-07-30, 12:45 AM
The majority of the monster races in the first Monster Manual have way too high LA; in most cases it seems like the person who wrote them thought that ECL was class levels+LA, rather than class levels+racial HD+LA (or maybe they were specifically trying to prevent people from playing monster races). If you compare the abilities that a lizardman gets to taking 2 levels in any real class, they're comparable or weaker, so after the racial HD there doesn't seem like a need for a level adjustment. The same thing happens for bugbears, to some extent ogres, most of the undead that are allowed for PCs, dragons, etc. You only get monster races that can be played as written in later books.

BooNL
2010-07-30, 12:49 AM
The majority of the monster races in the first Monster Manual have way too high LA; in most cases it seems like the person who wrote them thought that ECL was class levels+LA, rather than class levels+racial HD+LA (or maybe they were specifically trying to prevent people from playing monster races). If you compare the abilities that a lizardman gets to taking 2 levels in any real class, they're comparable or weaker, so after the racial HD there doesn't seem like a need for a level adjustment. The same thing happens for bugbears, to some extent ogres, most of the undead that are allowed for PCs, dragons, etc. You only get monster races that can be played as written in later books.

Bolded for emphasis. This is basically the reason a lot of those monsters have high RHD and LA. Look at the Troglodyte! I've always wanted to play one, but the combined RHD and LA is just as ugly as the critter itself!

Dropping the RHD is a good call, +1 LA should be sufficient for the race. If you want to go by RAW though, I suggest the Poisondusk Lizardfolk from MMIII. +1 LA, no RHD out of the box (and pretty good to boot!)

Noodles2375
2010-07-30, 07:12 AM
Oooooo that sounds neat One of my players has the MM3 so I'll borrow it from him to check that out.

Skaven
2010-07-30, 07:53 AM
in most cases it seems like the person who wrote them thought that ECL was class levels+LA, rather than class levels+racial HD+LA

(or maybe they were specifically trying to prevent people from playing monster races).

I had to doubly bold these two for emphasis. They are so very true.

Cyrion
2010-07-30, 09:49 AM
It's a 1-2 shot adventure. I wouldn't worry about enforcing penalties for either one in this case. Since this isn't going to be a campaign in which you're going to see long-term power differences, just give the cool toys to play with minus the hassle. If you feel the need to fine-tune the party balance, sprinkle appropriate magic items around the rest of the party members as needed.