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subject42
2010-07-29, 01:44 PM
Forgive me if anyone has pointed this out before, but I just noticed that Druids are proficient with clubs, but not greatclubs.

The odd thing about this is that if a medium druid wields a club meant for a large creature two-handed, he takes a -2 to hit and does 1d8 damage.

If he instead uses a greatclub, he'll do the same 1d8 damage, but take a -4 to hit because he isn't proficient with the weapon.

Huh?

Morty
2010-07-29, 01:46 PM
I think it may be a balance thing. Druid isn't supposed to be a martial class so they don't get proficiency in a two-handed martial weapon.

Marnath
2010-07-29, 01:56 PM
I've always been of the opinion that greatclub is a simple weapon. It's a giant chunk of wood that you bean people on the noggin with...whats difficult about that? :smallconfused: It's not like its a Gyrspike or a whip where you can hurt yourself worse than the enemy if you dont know what you're doing. I can't think of anything you can do with a greatclub that you would need training to figure out how to do it.

Keld Denar
2010-07-29, 01:59 PM
A greatclub is a bit more complex than a simple stick. They typically have metal banding that may or may not have spiked projections. They may or many not have carved or worked handles. They certainly aren't just a large branch you picked up off the ground, as represented by the cost difference between a club and a greatclub.

Marnath
2010-07-29, 02:07 PM
So..it's a very nice stick with spikes? I dont really see what quality has to do with ease of use:smallwink:

Prodan
2010-07-29, 02:09 PM
It's a surprisingly thorny problem

WarKitty
2010-07-29, 02:11 PM
So..it's a very nice stick with spikes? I dont really see what quality has to do with ease of use:smallwink:

Arguably, the sheer heft of it takes some practice to use properly.

jiriku
2010-07-29, 02:13 PM
It's a surprisingly thorny problem

/facepalm

Morty has gotten right to the root of the issue. At its heart, a greatclub is martial weapon, and WotC felt that it would be nuts for druids to branch out too far from their core role as a casting/wildshaping class. Else everyone playing another class would feel like a sap for not playing a druid.

Marnath
2010-07-29, 02:15 PM
It's a surprisingly thorny problem

I c wut u did thar :smallwink:

The Glyphstone
2010-07-29, 02:17 PM
Else everyone playing another class would feel like a sap for not playing a druid.

As opposed to now, where it's only everyone who's not a wizard or cleric.

Also, nice pun. This thread is almost as much of a gold mine as the latest Bear Warrior thread.

Marnath
2010-07-29, 02:19 PM
Meh, idk. This thread Bearly lives up to that one's reputation.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-29, 02:21 PM
That's why I said 'almost' - but then, this one hasn't finished rooting itself yet. People who can't stand puns might want to leaf now.

Keld Denar
2010-07-29, 02:21 PM
This tired old meme needs to stop dragon on...

Marnath
2010-07-29, 02:28 PM
This tired old meme needs to stop dragon on...

You could beat it to death with a greatclub, too bad you're only proficient with simple weapons.. :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2010-07-29, 02:29 PM
Ah, but a creature is always proficient with its natural weapons!

*face tentacle attack* SLURP

Dr.Epic
2010-07-29, 02:30 PM
Forgive me if anyone has pointed this out before, but I just noticed that Druids are proficient with clubs, but not greatclubs.

The odd thing about this is that if a medium druid wields a club meant for a large creature two-handed, he takes a -2 to hit and does 1d8 damage.

If he instead uses a greatclub, he'll do the same 1d8 damage, but take a -4 to hit because he isn't proficient with the weapon.

Huh?

You could just take a feat to be proficient with it. Also, druids aren't supposed to be front line fighters unless their in animal form.

subject42
2010-07-29, 02:52 PM
You could just take a feat to be proficient with it. Also, druids aren't supposed to be front line fighters unless their in animal form.

I don't particularly want to use a greatclub. It just seemed like a weird corner case in the rules.

I didn't find it until after I realized that magic quarterstaves are prohibitively expensive, since they're technically double ended weapons.

What does WotC have against grabbing wood with both hands?

ericgrau
2010-07-29, 02:53 PM
I've always been of the opinion that greatclub is a simple weapon. It's a giant chunk of wood that you bean people on the noggin with...whats difficult about that? :smallconfused: It's not like its a Gyrspike or a whip where you can hurt yourself worse than the enemy if you dont know what you're doing. I can't think of anything you can do with a greatclub that you would need training to figure out how to do it.

I can swing a sword too, doesn't mean I'm good at it.

Eldan
2010-07-29, 02:56 PM
:smallbiggrin:

Who knows. It seems that druids are only proficient with grabbing their wood one-handed.

Marnath
2010-07-29, 03:02 PM
I can swing a sword too, doesn't mean I'm good at it.

Yeah, but there are a lot of ways to cut someone with a sword, little tricks and maneuvers you woulnd't think of on your own. I just cant see any for a greatclub besides "i hit him again."

ericgrau
2010-07-29, 03:05 PM
I think the same applies. Especially for swiveling past an opponent's weapon.

Another_Poet
2010-07-29, 03:11 PM
I've always been of the opinion that greatclub is a simple weapon. It's a giant chunk of wood that you bean people on the noggin with...whats difficult about that?

Nothing, and it's such a bad way of using it that it merits 1d20 + attack bonus + -4 nonproficiency penalty.

If you were proficient you'd be spinning it in circles and figure eights, switching it from one hand to the other, sliding your hand along it to add leverage or choke up in confined quarters, striking knees, elbows, groin, floating rib, nose, or sternum with arcs that will hit just right, etc. You know... being proficient.

You can swing a sword and hit someone in the noggin. You can swing a machine gun and hit someone in the noggin. You can even swing a pair of halflings doing the ugly and hit someone in the noggin.

That doesn't mean you're proficient in using any of those things as weapons on a battlefield.

WarKitty
2010-07-29, 03:12 PM
Yeah, but there are a lot of ways to cut someone with a sword, little tricks and maneuvers you woulnd't think of on your own. I just cant see any for a greatclub besides "i hit him again."

"Your blow rolls off his shoulder as you fail to effectively put any force behind it. The weight of the swing unbalances you and you stumble trying to not drop your weapon." :smallbiggrin:

Dr.Epic
2010-07-29, 03:13 PM
What does WotC have against grabbing wood with both hands?

Last panel of this comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0418.html)

The Glyphstone
2010-07-29, 03:14 PM
:smallbiggrin:

Who knows. It seems that druids are only proficient with grabbing their wood one-handed.

No, nothing in the rules limits them to holding their wood with two hands - it's just that the rules limit the maximum size of their wood unless they spend a feat first.

Eldan
2010-07-29, 03:16 PM
Gotcha. Druids just have smaller wood, then.

Marnath
2010-07-29, 03:17 PM
Nothing, and it's such a bad way of using it that it merits 1d20 + attack bonus + -4 nonproficiency penalty.

If you were proficient you'd be spinning it in circles and figure eights, switching it from one hand to the other, sliding your hand along it to add leverage or choke up in confined quarters, striking knees, elbows, groin, floating rib, nose, or sternum with arcs that will hit just right, etc. You know... being proficient.

You can swing a sword and hit someone in the noggin. You can swing a machine gun and hit someone in the noggin. You can even swing a pair of halflings doing the ugly and hit someone in the noggin.

That doesn't mean you're proficient in using any of those things as weapons on a battlefield.

O.o I humbly admit defeat. Thats an excellent explanation, thanks.
*edit also.. whats the damage dice on a halfling couple? :smallbiggrin:

subject42
2010-07-29, 03:21 PM
Gotcha. Druids just have smaller wood, then.

Unless they're using oversized wood, at which point they're better at it with two hands than they would be with normal two-handed wood.

Eloel
2010-07-29, 03:29 PM
Gotcha. Druids just have smaller wood, then.

Can't they get a bigger wood by training with a Barbarian?

Fitz10019
2010-07-29, 03:29 PM
If he instead uses a greatclub, he'll do the same 1d8 damage, but take a -4 to hit because he isn't proficient with the weapon.


The greatclub is 1d10.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-29, 03:30 PM
Do they get a bigger wood if they train with a Barbarian?

Their wood doesn't automatically get bigger, but the Barbarian training will teach them how to wield the larger wood more effectively when they get it.

Another_Poet
2010-07-29, 03:31 PM
O.o I humbly admit defeat. Thats an excellent explanation, thanks.
*edit also.. whats the damage dice on a halfling couple? :smallbiggrin:

Wow... never had that happen before :smallsmile:

I think the damage on the halfling couple depends on how much cushion there is for the pushin'

subject42
2010-07-29, 03:32 PM
The greatclub is 1d10.

You're right. I read the wrong column.

hotel_papa
2010-07-29, 03:32 PM
If they take the feat, does it count for shillelagh? Because that would be awesome.

Eloel
2010-07-29, 03:33 PM
Their wood doesn't automatically get bigger, but the Barbarian training will teach them how to wield the larger wood more effectively when they get it.

So, is it a better idea to wield a smaller wood, or a larger wood, when facing one of those overpowdered Rouges?

Eldan
2010-07-29, 03:39 PM
Honestly, the size of the wood doesn't matter as much as the skill you wield it with.

...


I mean, as always in D&D, the damage die is much less important than the modifiers on it.

Superglucose
2010-07-29, 03:40 PM
Just houserule they get proficiency. W/e.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-07-29, 03:41 PM
Honestly, the size of the wood doesn't matter as much as the skill you wield it with.

...


I mean, as always in D&D, the damage die is much less important than the modifiers on it.
Feh, 3.5 is so wack.

In AD&D the size of your wood didn't matter as much as what you were using your wood on. Which makes a whole lot more sense - wood of any size is always going to be less effective on a larger opponent!

Eldan
2010-07-29, 03:42 PM
On the other hand, with two-handed wood use, you can use more powerful thrusts.

By which I mean Power Attacking for x2.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-29, 03:51 PM
I guess you could say that the more time the druids spends working out with really buff guys, the larger and sturdier his wood gets.

Jayabalard
2010-07-29, 03:52 PM
It's a surprisingly thorny problembut I guess your opponent will get the point ... in the end.

Eloel
2010-07-29, 03:54 PM
I guess you could say that the more time the druids spends working out with really buff guys, the larger and sturdier his wood gets.
So, first step to getting a bigger wood is dual-wielding smaller woods?
I hate myself for that post.

Ormagoden
2010-07-29, 03:58 PM
This thread can't stop its Impawsible.

But honestly isn't using a great club barking up the wrong tree?

They're made of at least some metal and druids can't use metal weapons...

Eldan
2010-07-29, 03:59 PM
That's why druids love dark wood. Or iron wood, because it's so hard.

Marnath
2010-07-29, 04:08 PM
Druids can't use metal ARMOR. Weapons are fine. Vadania is using a scimitar in the PHB.

DaedalusMkV
2010-07-29, 04:08 PM
Yes, Druids do prefer it when their wood is as hard as possible.

Exarch
2010-07-29, 04:14 PM
But can't druids use spears and daggers and scimitars? Druids are just as capable of using artificial means as they are with real wood.

RS14
2010-07-29, 04:15 PM
I didn't find it until after I realized that magic quarterstaves are prohibitively expensive, since they're technically double ended weapons.

What does WotC have against grabbing wood with both hands?

Just enchant a single end of the quarterstaff and use it as a standard two-handed weapon. There is no need to enchant or use both ends (though you do pay twice for the masterwork cost).

jiriku
2010-07-29, 04:20 PM
So, first step to getting a bigger wood is dual-wielding smaller woods?
I hate myself for that post.

I think you can go blind doing that.

Keld Denar
2010-07-29, 04:35 PM
I think you can go blind doing that.

This is true, most classes that duel wield have weak will saves. If you are a duel wielder and you get hit by a Glitterdust, you'll probably be blinded when it...gets in your eyes.

Gosh...no wonder people think D&D is evil...

Eloel
2010-07-29, 04:47 PM
I always thought people dual-wielded because they had weak will saves, not the other way around.

Eldan
2010-07-29, 04:53 PM
Well, I can just say:
Rangers get to dual-wield, but druids get stronger companions.

jiriku
2010-07-29, 05:02 PM
Well, I can just say:
Rangers get to dual-wield, but druids get stronger companions.

This is why you commonly see one of two druid builds: either the druid wild-shapes and flanks with his companion to attack the foe from both ends, or the club-wielding druid mounts his companion and power-attacks with his wood while on the companion's back.

AtopTheMountain
2010-07-29, 05:20 PM
When fighting with a large wood, your opponent had better make sure to use protection...

... So they don't get their skull bashed in. :smalleek:

Eldan
2010-07-29, 05:22 PM
There is one advantage to the Shapeshift druid from PHBII, by the way:
They can swiftly grow to a large size at higher levels.

TroubleBrewing
2010-07-29, 05:23 PM
Yeah, but there are a lot of ways to cut someone with a sword, little tricks and maneuvers you woulnd't think of on your own. I just cant see any for a greatclub besides "i hit him again."

I guess you just aren't proficient with it. Those that ARE can think of things aside from "I hit him again." :smalltongue:

jiriku
2010-07-29, 05:42 PM
There is one advantage to the Shapeshift druid from PHBII, by the way:
They can swiftly grow to a large size at higher levels.

Well, no argument there, every druid can't wait to get to higher level so he can make himself bigger. Why, I have one druid player who spends hours every week poring over sourcebooks looking for spells that will help him increase his size. He also uses girallon's blessing to get two extra arms. This allows him to two-hand his wood and dual-wield! Truly, he's found a way to have his cake and eat it too.

Thurbane
2010-07-29, 05:49 PM
Not called GREAT Club for nothing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49522)

Morph Bark
2010-07-29, 05:56 PM
Feh, 3.5 is so wack.

In AD&D the size of your wood didn't matter as much as what you were using your wood on. Which makes a whole lot more sense - wood of any size is always going to be less effective on a larger opponent!

Yeah, but likewise a large enough piece of wood will make it hard for you to get through tight spaces.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-29, 05:59 PM
Yeah, but likewise a large enough piece of wood will make it hard for you to get through tight spaces.

Yeah, I mean, there may be no RAW for it, but with wood that big, it has to be hard to sheath it!

Siosilvar
2010-07-29, 06:03 PM
Get thee to a punnery!

Zovc
2010-07-29, 06:39 PM
I don't see what the problem is, just wildshape and forget about weapons altogether.

Gavinfoxx
2010-07-29, 06:50 PM
...A Goliath Druid using a Large, Shillelagh'd Greatclub (assuming that spell works with them, and probably assuming the greatclub is houseruled to be a simple weapon) does 4D8. Not bad.

Thurbane
2010-07-29, 06:53 PM
...A Goliath Druid using a Large, Shillelagh'd Greatclub (assuming that spell works with them, and probably assuming the greatclub is houseruled to be a simple weapon) does 4D8. Not bad.
Don't forget Mighty Wallop/Greater Mighty Wallop...

Marnath
2010-07-29, 07:21 PM
I guess you just aren't proficient with it. Those that ARE can think of things aside from "I hit him again." :smalltongue:

Another_Poet Ninja'ed you, like 4 hours ago. :smallbiggrin:

Ramza1987
2010-07-29, 07:52 PM
Having a wood that large, and hard, may (at least), give you a big bonus to intimidate (who wouldn´t be scared by a guy with a big wood in his hands?).

Yrcrazypa
2010-07-29, 07:58 PM
It may just give him a circumstance bonus to seducing some people.

Keld Denar
2010-07-29, 08:00 PM
Oh come on...lets leave the BoEF out of this discussion. This is pure CharOp between a man (or woman) and his (or her) wood.

n00b killa
2010-07-30, 07:20 AM
"Frontline Fighter"? But I barely know her!

Tetsubo 57
2010-07-30, 08:19 AM
Greatclubs should be simple. The quaterstaff is simple and it is arguably a more complex weapon to use (as it is a double weapon).

Do a GIS for 'warclub'. They can have banding and spikes. But they can also be purely wood in construction. Especially the Native American and Polynesian versions.

I have always allowed a Druid to use any weapon made of natural materials, either simple or martial. I also require them to only use such weapons. No metal allowed at all. It has never seemed unbalancing to me.

I have two modern polyurethane warclubs within arms reach of me at the moment.

Eldan
2010-07-30, 08:20 AM
Why isn't metal natural, exactly? Just a thing I've always wondered about. Yes, it's not lying around in the forest, but neither is hide armour.

hamishspence
2010-07-30, 08:25 AM
Maybe because it normally requires a proper forge to work- which doesn't really fit druids?

I could see a druid being required to use only things that can be easily made in the wild, with a few tools. Possibly a small fire allowed for certain things. So a spear's tip could be fire-hardened.

Morph Bark
2010-07-30, 08:30 AM
Oh come on...lets leave the BoEF out of this discussion. This is pure CharOp between a man (or woman) and his (or her) wood.

Let's leave the futa out of this too. Gratuitous use of warp wood is one thing...

dextercorvia
2010-07-30, 08:33 AM
Maybe because it normally requires a proper forge to work- which doesn't really fit druids?

I could see a druid being required to use only things that can be easily made in the wild, with a few tools. Possibly a small fire allowed for certain things. So a spear's tip could be fire-hardened.

So does a scimitar.

hamishspence
2010-07-30, 08:35 AM
Scimitars are famous for not making much sense in this context.

A wooden sword, on the other hand, might.

dgnslyr
2010-07-30, 09:44 AM
Scimitars are famous for not making much sense in this context.

A wooden sword, on the other hand, might.

But how sharp would it be? Somehow, I don't think a wooden sword would do 1d6 damage.

hamishspence
2010-07-30, 10:16 AM
There are some pretty dense and durable ones- ebony, for example, or ironwood.

A hard, sharp, dense object will cut deeply when it connects- if it doesn't break.

jiriku
2010-07-30, 10:24 AM
There are some pretty dense and durable ones- ebony, for example, or ironwood.

A hard, sharp, dense object will cut deeply when it connects- if it doesn't break.

That's what she said.

QuantumSteve
2010-07-30, 10:35 AM
The Greatclub never made sense to me as a Martial Weapon. It is far and away the worst Martial Weapon. Sub-par damage for a two-hander, low crit, and no special abilities.
Even if they had the proficiency, a Druid would still be better off using a spear.

Keld Denar
2010-07-30, 10:42 AM
Go read the spell Spikes. Its in Complete Divine (and SpC, although the SpC version got the duration nerfed...)

Marnath
2010-07-30, 11:19 AM
I thought the idea behind druids not using much metal was that it interferes with casting, not neccessarily that they took some sort of vow? I guess it makes sense if you consider fey, who are closest to nautre, have trouble with cold iron. Not too much of a stretch to say that all worked metal interferes with the natural energies a druid uses? It isn't too important to me, i always just give druids bronzewood weapons, and not for the crazy prices in the arms & equipment guide or the eberron book....it's freaking WOOD, it wouldn't cost as much or more than adamantite least of all for a druid.

FMArthur
2010-07-30, 11:43 AM
The idea behind it seemed to evolve with the edition. Regardless of the reasoning behind it, by the end it was just for making druids' equipment slightly more expensive. They still got it if they wanted it without much trouble.

Marnath
2010-07-30, 11:45 AM
The idea behind it seemed to evolve with the edition. Regardless of the reasoning behind it, by the end it was just for making druids' equipment slightly more expensive. They still got it if they wanted it without much trouble.
what, metal or bronzewood? :smallconfused: