[3.5] Can I get Factotum 8 and level 9 spells in 20 levels?

[Zovc]

In 20 non-gestalt levels, can I get Factotum 8 and 9th-level spells?

Ur-Priest? I'unno...

[Eurus]

Ur-priest would definitely do it, yup.

[faceroll]

Sublime chord would, as well. Factotum's capstone might be able to snag you full casting from an obscure class, but iono....

[Zovc]

Any other options?

[faceroll]

Whitedragon spawn loredrake dragonwrough kobold with LA buyoff, improved draconic reservoir & greater rite of passage, and the spell hoarding template gets you wizard 16 casting.

Then it's just a matter of getting ninth level spells to count as 8th level spells.

[Zovc]

Whitedragon spawn loredrake dragonwrough kobold with LA buyoff, improved draconic reservoir & greater rite of passage, and the spell hoarding template gets you wizard 16 casting.

Then it's just a matter of getting ninth level spells to count as 8th level spells.

I won't even bother asking DM if that sort of cheese is allowed. :P

Sublime Chord vs Ur Priest. Who wins?

[Gorgondantess]

I won't even bother asking DM if that sort of cheese is allowed. :P

Sublime Chord vs Ur Priest. Who wins?

Ur-Priest if you like prepared or divine, sublime chord if you like spontaneous or arcane.
....That's pretty much it.

[faceroll]

I won't even bother asking DM if that sort of cheese is allowed. :P

Sublime Chord vs Ur Priest. Who wins?

2 actions a round and ninth level spells is asking for some gouda. But yes, I agree, that is some stinky, stinky cheese. I don't even think spell hoarding is a legit PC template, given that it lacks a LA adjustment.


Ur-Priest if you like prepared or divine, sublime chord if you like spontaneous or arcane.
....That's pretty much it.

Ur-priest has alignment restrictions, RAW. DM may let you get around them.

[Zovc]

Well, this is an arena game I'm in, so it's okay for me to be evil.

What homework should I do before selecting spells? Just at a glance, Energy Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/energyDrain.htm) seems pretty mean.

[Tyndmyr]

Then it's just a matter of getting ninth level spells to count as 8th level spells.

Sanctum Spell would like to say hello.

[Tyndmyr]

I won't even bother asking DM if that sort of cheese is allowed. :P

Sublime Chord vs Ur Priest. Who wins?

Mystic Theurge progressing both?

[faceroll]

Well, this is an arena game I'm in, so it's okay for me to be evil.

What homework should I do before selecting spells? Just at a glance, Energy Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/energyDrain.htm) seems pretty mean.

Go for debuffs and summoned creatures. Just debuff the crap out of your opponent and flood him with fiendish grapplers. Energy drain and other similar stuff is relatively easy to guard against. I would avoid that as well as enchantment effects, given how easy they are to negate (mindblank effects, prot. from evil) or avoid (by being undead).

That's what I would use in an arena game, anyway, given that you'll need effects that breach blanket immunities.

Avasculate is pretty sweet. Pretty sure clerics get it. No save, lose 1/2 your HP. I think it's in libris mortis and/or spell compendium.

[Zovc]

Mystic Theurge progressing both?

You're Naughty. I wonder if I can do that.

Factotum 8 needs +1 more to its Fortitude save before it can get into Ur Priest. Then Bard 1. Then Sublime Chord? ...then Mystic Theurge 9? That work? Can I get Bardic Music from something else/better? (Factotum 8 can cast 3rd-level spells, but I'm not sure it can qualify--they're spell-likes.)

Now I just need 19 Wisdom, 19 Charisma, and a decent Intelligence and Constitution would be nice...

[Tshern]

Well, this is an arena game I'm in, so it's okay for me to be evil.

What homework should I do before selecting spells? Just at a glance, Energy Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/energyDrain.htm) seems pretty mean.
The first thing is to forget about Energy drain, it sucks.

[faceroll]

You're Naughty. I wonder if I can do that.

Factotum 8 needs +1 more to its Fortitude save before it can get into Ur Priest. Then Bard 1. Then Sublime Chord? ...then Mystic Theurge 9? That work? Can I get Bardic Music from something else/better? (Factotum 8 can cast 3rd-level spells, but I'm not sure it can qualify--they're spell-likes.)

Now I just need 19 Wisdom, 19 Charisma, and a decent Intelligence and Constitution would be nice...

You need 2nd level spells (not the factotum's Sp abilities) to qualify for mystic theurge, so you're going to have to use cheese to qualify early. Use fractional save progression, and I think bard 1/fact8 will get your required fort save.

[Tyndmyr]

You can theoretically get four nines in gestalt play by abusing rapid casting progression and dual progression classes, keeping all prcs on one side. It's a horrifically complex build, also abusing kobold cheese, but I've got a copy on the forums somewhere, going by the name of lil Timmy. Getting dual nines should be comparatively easy, even in non-gestalt.

Bardic Music is, sadly, only available by taking a class level, so far as I can tell. Taking a level in monk is an easy way to handle the save requirements. It makes the build sticky at low levels, but hey, kobold cheese helps mitigate that. I suppose you probably *could* get bardic music by creativity involving a Sarrukk, but that's sufficiently munchkiny that I'd hesitate to advise ever using it.

[Zovc]

You need 2nd level spells (not the factotum's Sp abilities) to qualify for mystic theurge, so you're going to have to use cheese to qualify early. Use fractional save progression, and I think bard 1/fact8 will get your required fort save.

So I have to do Ur-Priest 2 and Mystic Theurge 8. We are using fractional progression.

Edit: As if getting Rebuke Undead is a bad thing.

[faceroll]

You can theoretically get four nines in gestalt play by abusing rapid casting progression and dual progression classes, keeping all prcs on one side. It's a horrifically complex build, also abusing kobold cheese, but I've got a copy on the forums somewhere, going by the name of lil Timmy. Getting dual nines should be comparatively easy, even in non-gestalt.

I've seen that one. It's not really legal, but it doesn't quite break any rules.


Bardic Music is, sadly, only available by taking a class level, so far as I can tell. Taking a level in monk is an easy way to handle the save requirements. It makes the build sticky at low levels, but hey, kobold cheese helps mitigate that. I suppose you probably *could* get bardic music by creativity involving a Sarrukk, but that's sufficiently munchkiny that I'd hesitate to advise ever using it.

I think you can take a feat from Champions of Valor that lets paladins turn either their remove disease (bleh) or smite evil (cool!) into bardic music. Of course you have to worship a paladin god from Faerun.

[edit]
Yeah, it's called From Smite to Song, requires 3 ranks in perform and membership in the Harmonious Order.

[Tyndmyr]

So I have to do Ur-Priest 2 and Mystic Theurge 8. We are using fractional progression.

Fractional Progression helps.

Note that sanctum spell is quite helpful in dodging all the various requirements for casting, if you want to try to engineer your way in early.

[Zovc]

Where is Sanctum Spell?

Also, is there a handbook (or something similar) for selecting spells? Apparently this is something I will struggle with.

[Kylarra]

Warning:Use of sanctum spell in this manner may result in books being flung at you.

[Zovc]

Warning:Use of sanctum spell in this manner may result in books being flung at you.

I am kind of expecting that, I don't intend to use it, but I am curious.

[faceroll]

I am kind of expecting that, I don't intend to use it, but I am curious.

When you cast a sanctum spell in your sanctum, it counts as one level higher. It's a cheaper way than using earth spell + heighten spell. You can also use it to cast spells outside of your sanctum from lower level slots than they were intended.

Speaking of, if you went a caster like warmage, beguiler, or dread necro, you could use easy metamagic, earth spell, heighten spell, and sanctum spell to cast a spell 3 levels higher out of a slot. So you could be casting evard's black tentacles from your first level slots. Use of arcane disciple (won't work with ur-priest) will get you 9 more spells known.

[edit]
Throw in versatile spell caster and get another spell level. So fifth level spells from 1st level slots.

[Kylarra]

Complete Arcane pg 82, effectively Sanctum'd spells are considered one spell level higher if cast within your sanctum, so dubious readings of RAW allow that to qualify for "can cast Xth level spells" even though technically you can only cast X-1th level spells "normally".

[Tshern]

Heh, there are neat tricks with Sanctum spell. Like Magical training+Precocious apprentice+Sanctum spell that allows you to enter prestige classes requiring third level arcane spells as a divine caster. Be ready to dodge the flying DMG though.

[Endarire]

Beholder Mage (Lords of Madness) is uber if you can qualify. Beholder Mage/Sublime Cord is even more so.

[Tshern]

Beholder Mage (Lords of Madness) is uber if you can qualify. Beholder Mage/Sublime Cord is even more so.
Again, be sure to acquire protection from blunt objects before you introduce your DM to your character sheet.

[Morph Bark]

I won't even bother asking DM if that sort of cheese is allowed. :P

Sublime Chord vs Ur Priest. Who wins?

Factotum 8/Ur-Priest 2/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9?

[Tyndmyr]

Heh, there are neat tricks with Sanctum spell. Like Magical training+Precocious apprentice+Sanctum spell that allows you to enter prestige classes requiring third level arcane spells as a divine caster. Be ready to dodge the flying DMG though.

My favorite involves applying to cantrips for wand crafting outside the sanctum. Negative half a lvl spell, meaning you MAKE money and xp crafting them. Also, it makes books fly.

[Douglas]

If the goal is multiple standard actions per round rather than specifically Factotum 8, Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) can do it without complicated cheese and loses only 3 levels of casting (if you stop at level 9 for Perpetual Options), leaving a simple wizard build at 17th level casting and 9th level spells.

[dextercorvia]

When you cast a sanctum spell in your sanctum, it counts as one level higher. It's a cheaper way than using earth spell + heighten spell. You can also use it to cast spells outside of your sanctum from lower level slots than they were intended.

Speaking of, if you went a caster like warmage, beguiler, or dread necro, you could use easy metamagic, earth spell, heighten spell, and sanctum spell to cast a spell 3 levels higher out of a slot. So you could be casting evard's black tentacles from your first level slots. Use of arcane disciple (won't work with ur-priest) will get you 9 more spells known.

[edit]
Throw in versatile spell caster and get another spell level. So fifth level spells from 1st level slots.


Note that these are all effectively higher level. You can't actually cast Black Tentacles from any less than 3rd level slots. You can use two 1st level slots to cast a Sanctum,Heighten+Earth,ImpKrau Grease -- That is effectively a 5th level spell. Or outside your sanctum, you can cast a spell at a lesser effective level, but the text on Sanctum is that it uses a slot of the spell's normal level. No casting 3rd level spells from 2nd level slots (unless you use two with Versatile).

[Amphetryon]

Just for the sake of completeness, you can also get 9th level spells with Factotum 8 if you use Apostle of Peace as your caster class, though it is a less useful list than going through Ur-Priest or Sublime Chord.

[dextercorvia]

Good point, which means we should probably throw in Divine Crusader as well.

[Ruinix]

heighen mind rape / cuining surge heighen mind rape / cuning suge heighen mind rape / cuning surge heighen mind rape. win.

factotum with imp. iniciative should win always initiative so is an easy win.

[Zovc]

Factotum 8/Ur-Priest 2/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9?

Actually, there's a level of Bard in there. While this build is certainly 'cheesy', I am not using any questionable method of meeting any prestige classes' requirements. (Unless you consider using Ur-Priest to meet Mystic Theurge cheesy.)

I'm meeting Ur-Priest's requirements with Factotum 8/Bard 1. Ur-Priest 1 lets me finish off my Sublime Chord requirements, so if I could, I'd just do Chord 1 and do Mystic Theurge 9 from there. But, I need 2nd-level casting to meet its prerequisites, so I do a second level of Ur-Priest (Sublime Chord never gets 2nd-level spells, lul).

Ultimately, though, MAD should prevent me from getting more than two 9th-level spells, one from Ur-Priest, and one from Sublime Chord. A 20th-level member of any casting class should easily be able to out-spell me especially not worrying about MAD. The only advantage to this build is that I might be able to take two extra standard actions an encounter. (There's no way I can afford four instances of Font of Inspiration, I have 5 inspiration points and cunning surge requires 3, FoI 1 gives me a second action, FoI 3 gives me a third, FoI 4 gives me a fourth and fifth.)

With 30 point buy (what we have), it seems like the best I can do is 8, 8, 8, 12, 17, 17. I'll get five ability points, which allows me to get 19/20 or 20/19 in Wisdom/Charisma.

[Zovc]

heighen mind rape / cuining surge heighen mind rape / cuning suge heighen mind rape / cuning surge heighen mind rape. win.

factotum with imp. iniciative should win always initiative so is an easy win.

Heighten Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#heightenSpell) is useless with Mindrape. Also, Mindrape allows a save, which can be problematic with having a Sublime Chord caster level of 9 (or 13).

[Douglas]

In case it got missed:

If the goal is multiple standard actions per round rather than specifically Factotum 8, Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) can do it without complicated cheese and loses only 3 levels of casting (if you stop at level 9 for Perpetual Options), leaving a simple wizard build at 17th level casting and 9th level spells.

[Zovc]

In case it got missed:

It didn't get missed, sorry I didn't address it.

If this doesn't work out, I'll consider Swiftblade.

[FMArthur]

You want more actions? Factotum and Swiftblade are small time. You are looking for Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 5/Psion 1/ Beholder Mage 2/Arcane Heirophant 7. 100 spells a round 5 hours a day; otherwise you have the default 10 from Beholder Mage.

[JaronK]

Savage Bard gets good fort save, IIRC. So I think you can get away with Factotum 8/Savage Bard 1/Ur Priest 2/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 7, as long as you can cheese the arcane requirement...

JaronK

[Zovc]

Savage Bard gets good fort save, IIRC. So I think you can get away with Factotum 8/Savage Bard 1/Ur Priest 2/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 7, as long as you can cheese the arcane requirement...

JaronK

Yeah, but then I'd get 0 9th-level spells as a Ur-Priest.

Sublime Chord and Mystic Theurge both hinge on DM allowing me to use Factotum casting to meet their arcane spellcasting requirements.

On the topic of Ur-Priest, is there any way for me to get more 9th-level spells in a day beyond having a Wisdom of, what, 28?

[Arcane-surge]

This intrigued me, so I worked it up a bit. This is what I came up with.

1 - Factotum - Able Learner, Iron Will, Spell Focus (Evil), (open)
2 - Factotum
3 - Factotum - Heighten Spell
4 - Factotum
5 - Factotum
6 - Factotum - Sanctum Spell
7 - Factotum
8 - Factotum
9 - Savage Bard - Versatile Spellcaster
10 -Ur-Priest
11 -Sublime Chord
12 -Mystic Theurge -
13 -Mystic Theurge
14 -Mystic Theurge
15 -Mystic Theurge -
16 -Mystic Theurge
17 -Mystic Theurge
18 -Mystic Theurge -
19 -Mystic Theurge
20 -Mystic Theurge


You don't need to actually be able to cast spells to take Heighten Spell or Sanctum Spell, and with Versatile spellcaster they get you the ability to cast a spell of 3rd level. Able Learner is there to smooth out any skill issues, but I don't think it's necessary.

[faceroll]

Heighten Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#heightenSpell) is useless with Mindrape. Also, Mindrape allows a save, which can be problematic with having a Sublime Chord caster level of 9 (or 13).

You mean SR.

[dextercorvia]

Actually, there's a level of Bard in there. While this build is certainly 'cheesy', I am not using any questionable method of meeting any prestige classes' requirements. (Unless you consider using Ur-Priest to meet Mystic Theurge cheesy.)

How are you getting third level arcane spells for Sublime Chord without cheesing the entry requirements?

[Eldariel]

I think you can take a feat from Champions of Valor that lets paladins turn either their remove disease (bleh) or smite evil (cool!) into bardic music. Of course you have to worship a paladin god from Faerun.

PAO solves it too. Lillend has native Bardic Music, for example.

[SurlySeraph]

On the topic of Ur-Priest, is there any way for me to get more 9th-level spells in a day beyond having a Wisdom of, what, 28?

Pearls of Power. Expensive, but probably worth it.

[Tyndmyr]

Pearls of Power. Expensive, but probably worth it.

Thats probably the best way. Wisdom boosters are also awesome...+6 enhance added to an existing magic item via MiC, +5 from wish abuse gives you 11 alone. That gets you to 28 if you started with a 17. With 18, and dropping one boost in there on level up, you hit 30. Possible, even with MAD to end up with 30 in both stats. Just slow, and very expensive.

[Coidzor]

Thats probably the best way. Wisdom boosters are also awesome...+6 enhance added to an existing magic item via MiC, +5 from wish abuse gives you 11 alone. That gets you to 28 if you started with a 17. With 18, and dropping one boost in there on level up, you hit 30. Possible, even with MAD to end up with 30 in both stats. Just slow, and very expensive.

Huh, and here I had I thought that the wish augment was a +5 to the bonus, not to the stat.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, this is an arena game I'm in, so it's okay for me to be evil.Well, that rules out the Apostle of Peace (Book of Exalted Deeds), unless maybe you can get yourself a Cohort.

What homework should I do before selecting spells? Just at a glance, Energy Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/energyDrain.htm) seems pretty mean.
Well, the first bit is to figure out what kind of AC, saves, SR, immunities, miss chances, and stealth abilities are "normal" for the arena in question. If you can't find them, you can't kill them. If you can't hit his touch AC, touch spells don't help. If he saves on anything other than a 1 (and he has Evasion), then anything that permits a save is essentially useless (well, maybe not for you, if you're doing what I think you're doing with Factotum-8...). And so on.


This intrigued me, so I worked it up a bit. This is what I came up with.Let's see...

Twin 9's, Early Entry tricks, flaws involved, and using a PrC to twin advance two PrC's that have their own accelerated spell progressions.

Cheesy, but has some serious flaws:
1) Piddly spells-per-day
2) Sharply reduced caster level (The spell "Spell Resistance" will really ruin your day... and you'll have problems Dispelling it, too)
3) Multiple Attribute Dependancy: Wis for Ur-Pries, Cha for Sublime Chord, Int for Factotum. No medium or heavy armor, so you need Dex, and everyone needs Con. You've got a SERIOUS case of MAD there.

In an arena, the first isn't so bad, but 2 and 3 will be murder.

[Tyndmyr]

Huh, and here I had I thought that the wish augment was a +5 to the bonus, not to the stat.

Yeah, I wish.

[Zovc]

Is there a way to get Sublime Chord 9 or 10 with Factotum 8?

Sublime Chord gets more spells than Ur-Priest, but it is harder to qualify for.

I imagine Factotum 8/Bard 1 is the starting point. So I suppose getting 3rd-level spells is unavailable without some serious cheese.

My thoughts turned to Chameleon, but I'd need three levels to get 3rd-level spells.

Which do you think would be more potent, Factotum 8/Whatever 2/Ur-Priest (Casting) 10, or Factotum 8/Cheese 2or3/Sublime Chord (Casting) 9or10?

[Amphetryon]

You don't really need to get Sublime Chord 8 or 9; most folks recommend Sublime Chord 2, but 1 is sufficient. Since Sublime Chord has its own separate casting progression, you can specify it as the '+1 arcane casting class' of any PrC that advances arcane casting which you take subsequently.

[Zovc]

You don't really need to get Sublime Chord 8 or 9; most folks recommend Sublime Chord 2, but 1 is sufficient. Since Sublime Chord has its own separate casting progression, you can specify it as the '+1 arcane casting class' of any PrC that advances arcane casting which you take subsequently.

Indeed, that's why I put "(casting)" in there. :P

[Amphetryon]

Is there a way to get Sublime Chord 9 or 10 with Factotum 8?I must be failing a Spot check. :smallsmile:

[Zovc]

Lower in the post.


Which do you think would be more potent, Factotum 8/Whatever 2/Ur-Priest (Casting) 10, or Factotum 8/Cheese 2or3/Sublime Chord (Casting) 9or10?

[Keld Denar]

Um...Ardent says hello and wants to play.

Illumian XKrau Factotum8/Ardent16. Nab Practiced Manifester at some point. Your ending ML will be 17 at level 19 and 18 at level 20, allowing you to pick up 2 9th level powers.

Granted, you'll be MAD with Wisdom and Int, but you'll have what you want. Font for a standard action, then Timeless Body yourself and still have your whole full round action to play with.

[Jack_Simth]

Is there a way to get Sublime Chord 9 or 10 with Factotum 8?
It's cheesy, and depends on sources available, but yes, there's a couple ways.

Here's one (not the most efficient, though): Versatile Spellcaster + Earth Sense + Earth Spell + Heighten Spell = 3rd level spell out of 1st level slots (although it's still a 1st level spell for most purposes - you've got a Cure Light Wounds, heightened to third - so technically a 3rd level spell - using two 1st level spell slots ... if you're in contact with the ground), so Factotum-8/Bard-2 is sufficient to qualify.

Slightly more effecient is the Illumian (Races of Destiny) Bard-1/Factotum-8 with Improved Sigil (Krau) (also Races of Destiny) and Precocious Apprentice (for a Divination spell of 2nd level) (Complete Arcane; it's a sidebar feat). Precocious Apprentice is a 1st level only feat that gives you a 2nd level spell (with limits), Improved Sigil (Krau) lets you pick a spell (with restrictions) and have it treated as a level higher... meaning you can cast 3rd level spells (one per day, always the same spell, but still...). If you use the Savage Bard (Unearthed Arcana) with this, you can make that Bard-1/Factotum-8/Ur-Priest-1/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Sublime Chord / Ur-Priest)-9, netting you Factotum 8, casting as an Ur-Priest 10, and casting as a Sublime Chord-10. But you're burning four feats (1st, 3rd, 6th, and 9th - 1st: Precocious Apprentice; 3rd: Improved Sigil(Krau); 6th: Iron Will; 9th: Spell Focus(Evil)), a racial pick (Ilumian); , require a hefty investment into all three mental stats (Int for Factutum, Wis for Ur-Priest, Cha for Sublime Chord), and have a sharply reduced caster level (your highest caster level is one of 11, 15, or 19, depending on interpretation... please don't ask how each number is determined). But you have Factutum-8 for those tasty extra actions, 9th level Arcane spells, and 9th level Divine spells.