Warhammer Fantasy Thread II: Now With Higher Combat Resolution!

[Winterwind]

This thread is for everything related to Warhammer Fantasy Battles - fluff, rules, tactics, we've got you covered. :smallcool:

The previous thread can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113149).

The last subject was: Dwarf tactics in general, and the merits (or lack thereof) of Slayer characters in particular.

And now, with no further ado, onward to your daily scheduled WHFB. :smallcool:

[Jair Barik]

Unrelated to the slayer banter but does anybody know the approximate dimensions of a screaming bell (only the bell not the carriage or anything like that), namely is its diameter greater than the size of a mnstrous infantry base (or four small bases put together).

[ZeltArruin]

I think it is 80*160mm, but I am unsure. That would be 4*6 20mm models, ie, skaven.

Edit: Challenges are good for the slayer I outlined, but generally you can only have one of those before you have to face the entire unit, unless you are fighting grail knights, in which case, hope they dont pass their 5++.

[Jair Barik]

Oh I know what base size the screaming bell uses what I was asking about was the approximate dimensions of the bell component of the kit (no wheels, no supports, no rat ogre, no seer, nothing other than the bell itself sitting on a base)

[Eldan]

Just the bell?
One moment...

About 3.4cm/1.25 inches wide at the widest point.
About 5.4cm/a little over 2 inches high, without the ornament on top.
Then there's smoke coming out of it, which is about another 4.5cm/1.75inches long.

[crazedloon]

Against the Dwarf players I have played and based on a few games I have watched a few slayers (bare bone no upgrades) are not a bad investment as speedbumps. They can hold up large blocks of basic infantry for 1+ turns or stand near warmachines to stop anything from engaging them (as most things that hunt Warmachines lack ranks or banners they can actually win these fights) They are quite cost effective if used correctly

[Jair Barik]

Hmmmm that sounds perfect then, thanks for the help Eldan!
The intention is for it to be a part of my converted war litter alongside four chaos warhounds (already converted and ready for the final assembly). What I'm curious about now though is wether or not Skreet Verminkin is supposed to be the same character as Lord verminkin (the model certainly doesn't look like the descriptions I've read of Lord Verminkin).

[Winterwind]

Supposed you had a horde of Chaos Marauders, let's say 40. Also supposed they had the Mark of Tzeentch. What, then, do you think would be the best way to equip them (if there is an unequivocally best way to do so, anyhow)? I had originally intended to give them light armour and shields, to make them as durable as possible (on top of the durability granted by superior numbers, and by taking advantage of parry stacking with the Mark of Tzeentch), both because durability in itself is a virtue and because having durable forces with good static combat resolution would be pretty much the opposite of how my Wood Elves work; however, the more I think about it, the more I wonder whether flails would not make them more generally useful, as they would become quite dangerous even for heavily armoured, tough foes then, and would break opponents by inflicting more casualties more quickly. What do you think?

(Note: I'm not dead set on using a horde, though I would like to give it a try, and I think Marauders are one of the best units to make a horde with. The Mark of Tzeentch though has to stay; I want to make an entirely Tzeentch-themed army, with nothing that can have a mark not having a Tzeentch-Mark)

[Jair Barik]

Surely it all depends upon what you intend to use them for. If you want them to be a cheap unit that simply brings back its points value through killing something then I'd say flails. If however you want something expendable to hold an enemy unit up so your more expensive units can maneuver round for flank charges etc. then the light armour set up is what you want. If however you don't plan on putting too many points in their defences and go with flails perhaps rethink the mark of Tzeentech? Try keeping them with a set strength and goal as opposed to diversifying and spending too many points on a unit that lacks a specific speciality. Thats just my 2 cents though.

Looking on the web at other chaos lists marauder set ups seem varied but generally all the units within one list seem to be equipped in the same way so perhaps its just personal taste.

[Erloas]

Did the rules for flails change at all? (I keep meaning to buy the new rulebook but haven't actually got it done yet, since I have to order it online.)

I think it depends a lot on what else is in your army. With a decent number of high strength attacks from warriors, chosen, and knights, you aren't in a big need for more. The bonus only being in the first round of combat, if you get locked into a battle of attrition, one that lasts several turns, you aren't going to get your bonus for most of it. And at only 4 ranks, its not going to be too hard for your opponent to keep steadfast. I would say since the primary roll of a unit like that is to get into combat and stay locked in combat as long as possible, the increased survivability is the way to go.

Although it might work fairly well in some situations, it does kind of depend on the point cost difference.

[SmartAlec]

Great weapons get my vote. You've got the numbers to ensure that you'll get some attacks back, and those attacks will murder the opposition. Even heavy cavalry or large monsters will have to think twice. The enemy will strike first, but you'll always have the strength to ensure that you're getting kills. Leave the survivability to the Chaos Warriors.

[Swordguy]

Firs, thanks for the link over to Bugman's, Winterwind!

Second - under 8e, what's the "intended" game size? I've heard everything from 2000-3500.

Finally, when is the starterbox coming out? I don't feel the need to purchase a $75 rulebook - I'd just like the minibook that normally accompanies those games.

[Jair Barik]

8th edition is released on the 4th september

From what I've heard it seems that 3000 is going to be the popular points level and higher points games are encouraged by rules such as horde. With larger unit being fielded smaller points games could turn into cases of two big units running into each other and then fighting it out till one dies.

[Winterwind]

Hmm, alright, thanks - I think I'll drop the flails idea, then.

Can Marauders be equipped with great weapons? I'm away from my army book right now; if they can, and I just missed that option (:smallredface:), I would definitely take those over flails (though would still have to decide between those and the armour/shield set-up.

As for what my army contains otherwise - well, what I had in mind, roughly, is (everything with the Mark of Tzeentch, where possible):
- Chaos Sorcerer Lord, level 4, Lore of Tzeentch
- Exalted Hero, on a disc, for hunting stuff
- Chaos Sorcerer, level 2, Lore of Shadows (the only non-marked unit - I intend to use the same model as for the Sorcerer Lord here, only paint it exclusively in black and grey colours, and declare it to be the actual shadow of the Sorcerer Lord, awakened to its own unholy life)
- maybe a battle standard bearer, undecided yet
- at least one unit of at least 5 Chaos Knights
- 20-30 Chosen, with shields
- another unit of either Chaos Warriors or Chosen, with shields
- Warshrine
- a few small units of Warhounds and/or Marauder Horsemen for screening and harrassing stuff


Firs, thanks for the link over to Bugman's, Winterwind!I hope you'll find it helpful. :smallredface:
There is a forum dedicated to each army for all armies (heck, even the Chaos Dwarfs have one); I find it quite useful for seeing what the common opinions (on things like the new edition) are.


Second - under 8e, what's the "intended" game size? I've heard everything from 2000-3500.I'm not sure, either. I actually think it's a question of metagame - the intended game size is whatever becomes the most common where you live. Though I guess the rulebook could be kind of interpreted as proposing ~2500 as standard: When talking about 2000 points games, it seems to consider them rather small, whereas at 3000 points certain special rules for big games appear (specifically, the limitations on special and rare choices are eased somewhat).


Finally, when is the starterbox coming out? I don't feel the need to purchase a $75 rulebook - I'd just like the minibook that normally accompanies those games.The latest info I've heard on that is:

The GW blog from last Friday said "The Island of Blood will be available to advance order from Tuesday the 10th of August." Since pre-order is usually about 1 month before release that would put the release at the first two weeks of September.

I think I heard the 13th specifically, but I'm not sure on that.

[Klose_the_Sith]

So while we're on the topic of Dwarves, what would be the ideal way to start up an army? As in, which purchases will yield the best results?

I'm currently looking at grabbing Battle for Skull Pass at some stage, just because it seems to be an easy starter and if I wait a couple months then I can probably get it on the cheap, but is it actually advisable? I'd also like to have the goblins, but I suppose they're not necessary.

Plus where do I go from there - battalion or single boxes?

[Jair Barik]

Generally the Battle for skull pass dwarves are considered pretty poor quality models compared to the non starter set counterparts.

As I said before Island of Blood is September 4th release date as I stated in my last post (has been officially announced on the website).

Also Winterwind bear in mind that small screening units could be popped to cause panic tests amongst your own guys and that there is now a minimum size required to deny rank bonus from flanks when your using your harassing units.

[Swordguy]

So while we're on the topic of Dwarves, what would be the ideal way to start up an army? As in, which purchases will yield the best results?

I'm currently looking at grabbing Battle for Skull Pass at some stage, just because it seems to be an easy starter and if I wait a couple months then I can probably get it on the cheap, but is it actually advisable? I'd also like to have the goblins, but I suppose they're not necessary.

Plus where do I go from there - battalion or single boxes?

As you can imagine, I've been doing a lot of research recently on Dwarfs and what to buy.

The Skull pass set looks decent (you get 12 Thunderers, 12 Warriors, 8 Miners, a Dragon Slayer, a Thane, and a Cannon). Great Weapons seem to be utterly awesome for Dwarfs, and the Warriors that come in the box set are molded with hand weapons and shields. And those shields are molded directly into the wielder's body. There's no conversion I can think of that would enable you to swap the shields for great weapons apart from tearing the shields out completely and resculpting the arm, beard, and adding the great weapon. The miners, thunderers, and cannon are pretty useful, though. If you can pick half the set up for about 20 bucks, it's worth it just for those. Just don't pay full price for the set just to get the Dwarfs (it's on Amazon for $65). See if you can find the Dwarf half on eBay or Craigslist or something, get a pair of sets, and you'll have all the Miners, Thunderers, and Cannons you'll really need.

I'd honestly start with a Dwarf Battalion Box (32 Warriors you can equip with great weapons, 16 Dwarves that can be modeled as quarrelers or thunderers -either of which can be Rangers, and an Organ Gun or Cannon). Model up the Warriors with GW, model the artillery as an Organ Gun, and model the ranged guys as Rangers. To that, add yourself two sets of Skull Pass stuff (2 Cannons, 24 Thunderers, 24 Warriors w/HW&Shields, and a pair of Thanes) and you've got a solid core for an army that you can probably spend only about $100-$120 on. And all those models will, after Runes/Battle Standard, will give you about a 1000-1200 point list with 2 big infantry blocks, 3 units of Thunders, and plenty of artillery. That's certainly a serviceable core. It's something of a gunline...but that seems to be the Dwarf playstyle from everything I've read

I don't know necessarily what to buy beyond that, given my own inexperience with the current edition. But I can't imagine this buying list going too far wrong. As long as you're OK with the somewhat lesser quality of the Skull Pass models, that is. They aren't as "sharp" as the stuff out of the single boxes.

[Winterwind]

So while we're on the topic of Dwarves, what would be the ideal way to start up an army? As in, which purchases will yield the best results?The best way would probably be the Dwarf Army box (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1050165&rootCatGameStyle=) - if you can find one. As far as I know, army boxes are not being produced anymore, but with luck you can find one at your shop anyway (I know our shop still has some for a few armies). That would give you a very large number of units, all of which are fairly useful ones.

Failing that, Bataillon boxes (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1050129&rootCatGameStyle=) are pretty much always the best deal, and the Dwarf one is no exception - it has pretty much only stuff you would probably want anyway, and much cheaper than if you would buy it separately. I imagine for most armies, just buying two bataillon boxes might actually be the most efficient way to go - at least, with both the Wood Elves and the Warriors of Chaos I ended up buying one Bataillon box and then several normal unit boxes, and in both cases I ended up regretting I had not just gone for two Bataillons, as it would have saved me money. :smallredface:


Also Winterwind bear in mind that small screening units could be popped to cause panic tests amongst your own guys and that there is now a minimum size required to deny rank bonus from flanks when your using your harassing units.Aye, I know; however, Warriors of Chaos have good Leadership and the Will of Chaos special rule that allows them to re-roll failed panic tests, so I think the -2 to hit for the opponent should they decide to shoot at my more valuable main units should usually outweigh the possible risk. And when I said harrass, I was primarily thinking of killing warmachines or messing up units of archers and such, though depending on the points, I might also end up using Marauder Horsemen or Warhound units of sufficient size to deny rank bonus.

[Jair Barik]

All the box sets are cheaper than their individual contents and in most cases they do provide things that the army will generally use making them a good starting point or good for expanding your forcem (which is their intended purpose).

I'm personally not a great fan of the beastmen battallion but thats because the new beastmen just seem too expensive in general and theres no Chaos demons battalion.

Most have some component that even in big games you probably don't want too many of (cannons, chariots, temple guard etc.) but 2 battalion boxes is 'generally' a good starting point.
A few where this may not be the case are O&G (the army list can support a wide variety of different army types and not everyone will want half the components of the box as though all the parts have some utility some support their own specialised lists, e.g. spider rider hordes or Goblin/Orc only lists) the Empire (again not all lists will want the three different CC units supplied as many Empire armies are gunlines, makes the lack of any cannons kind of odd IMO) and Tomb Kings (both the cavalry and chariots are very much a matter of personal prefrence and both armies I've seen only used them rarely and only then because they had got them with the box).

[Eldan]

I don't know... for Skaven, the batallion box only contains a lot of infantry and some rat ogres. No heroes, no weapon teams... pretty much nothing of the interesting stuff Skaven have.

[Ninja Chocobo]

at least, with both the Wood Elves and the Warriors of Chaos I ended up buying one Bataillon box and then several normal unit boxes, and in both cases I ended up regretting I had not just gone for two Bataillons, as it would have saved me money. :smallredface:

Well
Maybe last edition.
As it stands I can't see myself using Glade Riders or more than 8 Dryads any time soon.

[Jair Barik]

I don't know... for Skaven, the batallion box only contains a lot of infantry and some rat ogres. No heroes, no weapon teams... pretty much nothing of the interesting stuff Skaven have.

And? None of the battallion boxes (excluding vampire counts I think) have any heroes, not even the tomb kings who rely incredibly heavily upon their heroes and die without them. As for weapon teams until IoB there have been no plastic weapons teams available (and only plastic models appear in battalion boxes). I'd say the Battalion box contains things most skaven players will use and follows the idea of '2 battalions is a good start'. You can never have too many slaves/clanrats, giant rats and rat ogres are both cool (with monstrous infantry rules now increasing the possibilities available with their use) and with the plague furnace most Skaven lists I see seem to be taking at least one Plague priest on furnace so inevitably most players will end up getting 2 boxes of Plague monks to make up the 30-40 man unit that pushes it anyway.

Just my personal thoughts on it though everyones entitled to their own opinion.

[Winterwind]

Well
Maybe last edition.
As it stands I can't see myself using Glade Riders or more than 8 Dryads any time soon.I'm still using both.

Glade Riders get the 12" bonus movement at the beginning of the game for being fast cavalry, which helps bringing them closer to where they are supposed to be. They are still perfectly good warmachine killers, and provide additional longbow fire while moving into the right position for that. They can also provide a few additional points for combat resolution by a well-timed flank or rear charge - sure, they do not negate rank bonus anymore when doing so (at least, when used in small numbers, but I don't think a unit of sufficient size to negate ranks reliably would be worth its points), but you still get the combat resolution for being in the flank or rear, possibly for the charge, too, as well as whatever they end up killing.
And let's not forget that under the new edition our heroes, when riding an Elven Steed, become fast cavalry, too, which positively reeks of untold potential - Glade Riders provide a cheap unit to protect them when using that 12" bonus movement to manouver the heroes into a useful position early on. And they are usually better for this than Wild Riders, since Wild Riders require the hero to belong to the Wild Rider Kindred, which is painfully prohibitive when it comes to equipment options.

As for Dryads, they still are one of the best units Wood Elves have to offer. Sure, skirmishers were nerfed, but then, Dryads were arguably underpointed previously, so it's all fine. They are tough and deal a ton of punishment to the enemy, and, let's not forget, all that at Initiative 6. Sure, the enemy gets to be stubborn against them, but then, the enemy gets to be stubborn pretty much no matter what Wood Elves might use, and Dryads are powerful enough to tear apart most infantry and cavalry formations by sheer attrition. If anything, I'll be using more of them in this edition, to keep the full number of attacks longer.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I've decided to just buy the Dwarf army book when I next go into my local Soul-Devouring Plastic Dealership, probably while picking up some Space Marine Devastators.

I'm gonna figure out what sort of army I'm going to build and work it from there - admittedly I will still end up getting a Batallion, probably as my first purchase, but this way I'll have colour scheme and the like (as in fluff) worked out, which is distressingly important to me.

So currently planned purchases would be

1x Army book thing
1x Dwarf Lord with Great Weapon (Because the sculpt of his beard is AWESOME :smalleek: - even if I don't use the model as built, his beard could proxy any Hero)
2x Dwarf Batallions

From there? I've got no idea. It'll take me eleventy million years to paint all of that anyway but at least it'll provide me with some variety from my marines.

Have I made any glaring flaws? Are there even more cost-efficient beards of epicness that I failed to notice in my fool-ridden haste?

Seriously though, that model is just too cool. (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m460224_99060205117_DwarfLordGreatWeaponMain_445x3 19.jpg)

[Winterwind]

That is one cool looking model. :smallcool:

I'd say Hammerers and/or Ironbreakers look like quite terrifying warriors - the former for the pain they can deal out, the latter for the pain they can take.

An Anvil of Doom is practically mandatory.

And I think a catapult would make a great supplement for your formidable warmachines.

EDIT: Oh, wait, you were asking for alternatives, not what to get after you get what you wrote up there. Sorry, nevermind. :smallredface:

[Jair Barik]

"What we got here?"
"Dead dwarf Lord, bludgeoned to death most likely with a rocket hammer"
"Huh, looks like somebody found his list a little....:smallcool: beardy"

YEAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Seriously though that models beard is a character in its own right. Personally I think the slayer heroes and Dwarf Lord with pistol have some pretty amazing beards.

[Winterwind]

The Battle Standard Bearer's beard looks like it might eat people... :smalleek:

[Klose_the_Sith]

EDIT: I feel like getting this guy (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440054a&prodId=prod1140271) and naming him Vitalstatistix ...


That is one cool looking model. :smallcool:

I'd say Hammerers and/or Ironbreakers look like quite terrifying warriors - the former for the pain they can deal out, the latter for the pain they can take.

An Anvil of Doom is practically mandatory.

And I think a catapult would make a great supplement for your formidable warmachines.

EDIT: Oh, wait, you were asking for alternatives, not what to get after you get what you wrote up there. Sorry, nevermind. :smallredface:

Just making sure that I hadn't missed something grossly vital :smallwink:

Hammerers and Ironbreakers both look pretty cool, although I'm not sold on them fitting into my army just yet, I was kind of hoping for a regal Dwarf approach. Still, my opinions on such things do tend to change with alarming rapidity.

On the plus side, that makes your catapult/grudge thrower suggestion doubly applicable :smallcool:

The anvil too will come, in time.


"What we got here?"
"Dead dwarf Lord, bludgeoned to death most likely with a rocket hammer"
"Huh, looks like somebody found his list a little....:smallcool: beardy"

YEAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Seriously though that models beard is a character in its own right. Personally I think the slayer heroes and Dwarf Lord with pistol have some pretty amazing beards.

One of (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440054a&prodId=prod780864) the Daemon Slayers carries some pretty bizarre octopus connotations. Perhaps he too, can see the future ... :smallamused:

[Jair Barik]

Have you seen the plastic slayer from BfSP? He wears nothing but his own hair. Seriously. The models not that good but when viewed from behind its certainly....interesting. Interesting in the same manner that the 'peasants arm' that is extending out from underneath the giant in the fallen giant template is interesting.

Also point of order you must only name that Dwarf Vitalstatistix if you do a conversion swapping him with the Dwarf King on Shield, I mean really is there any other way to do it?

[Winterwind]

Hammerers and Ironbreakers both look pretty cool, although I'm not sold on them fitting into my army just yet, I was kind of hoping for a regal Dwarf approach. Still, my opinions on such things do tend to change with alarming rapidity."Regal"? Well, Hammerers are, fluff-wise, the personal guard of dwarven kings, so... :smallwink:


One of (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440054a&prodId=prod780864) the Daemon Slayers carries some pretty bizarre octopus connotations. Perhaps he too, can see the future ... :smallamused:This guy's hair would make a good replacement for a shield, if a dwarf king needed something to stand on. :smallcool:

[Klose_the_Sith]

Have you seen the plastic slayer from BfSP? He wears nothing but his own hair. Seriously. The models not that good but when viewed from behind its certainly....interesting. Interesting in the same manner that the 'peasants arm' that is extending out from underneath the giant in the fallen giant template is interesting.

As good as this guy (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat500015a&prodId=prod1140283) or not?


Also point of order you must only name that Dwarf Vitalstatistix if you do a conversion swapping him with the Dwarf King on Shield, I mean really is there any other way to do it?

No, you're absolutely right - that conversion will just HAVE to be made :smallbiggrin:


"Regal"? Well, Hammerers are, fluff-wise, the personal guard of dwarven kings, so... :smallwink:

Actually I guess my main problem with how regal they look probably just stems from how they're painted, so Hammerers hurrah (probably)!

[DranWork]

Just jumping in for my 2c about what to equip maurd's with.

40 strong full command and great weapons mark of K. Can be set up to be 4 ranks of 10 or what ever you wish really. You'll have enough attacks that it doesnt matter that you went last. If set up the 10 wide then you become a hoard against most things and get to fight in 3 ranks, generally speaking that means you will have a total of 33 great weapon attacks at str 5. Not something to be laughed at really.

Another good unit that I use is a unit of 24 FC mark of tz shield and light armor. Then just use it to hold my flanks. 5+ ward is surprisingly hard to get through for most flanking units.

[Jair Barik]

For whatever unit you intend to place the shieldbearers in you must do some special conversions so that amongst other things it includes...
A fat dwarf in blue and white vertical stripes
A short thinner dwarf in black and red
A musician with a harp/lyre in blue checks
A dwarf with a fish
A dwarf with an apron and hammer (possibly posed to be fighting fish guy)

I'm sure there are others that could be done as well but such a dwarf unit would be packed full of win beyond compare.

[Winterwind]

Just jumping in for my 2c about what to equip maurd's with.

40 strong full command and great weapons mark of K. Can be set up to be 4 ranks of 10 or what ever you wish really. You'll have enough attacks that it doesnt matter that you went last. If set up the 10 wide then you become a hoard against most things and get to fight in 3 ranks, generally speaking that means you will have a total of 33 great weapon attacks at str 5. Not something to be laughed at really.Well, Mark of Khorne is no option for me due to theme reasons. You know, fully Tzeentchian army and all that. :smallwink:

Though I just might go with great weapons anyway. The number of attacks is not that much smaller.

The only problem is, the Marauders box does not contain any great weapons...

Well, that, and I'm still not sure whether the armour+shield-variant wouldn't be better anyway...


Another good unit that I use is a unit of 24 FC mark of tz shield and light armor. Then just use it to hold my flanks. 5+ ward is surprisingly hard to get through for most flanking units.Keep in mind though that you do not get the ward-save from parry when flanked.


I'm sure there are others that could be done as well but such a dwarf unit would be packed full of win beyond compare.Would these dwarves be beating up a numerically superior formation of High Elves led by a spindly white-haired guy with laurels on his head?

[Jair Barik]

Inevitably yes.

Also I fully approve of the full Tzeentech theme! Themes are very good (if occassionally expensive to convert). Any plans for how your going to make everyone look Tzeentechy? What sort of plans do you have for basing the shadow sorcerer?

[Winterwind]

Also I fully approve of the full Tzeentech theme! Themes are very good (if occassionally expensive to convert). Any plans for how your going to make everyone look Tzeentechy?Well, for starters, blue. One reason why I picked Tzeentch was that blue is my favourite colour, yet none of my armies so far features it much. :smalltongue:

On the Chaos Warriors/Chosen, with that magma vein theme all over them that I asked for in the models thread (only with the veins in blue, rather than orange).

On the Marauders, perhaps with the occasional mutation. I have tons of spare parts from Possessed Chaos Space Marines; most of them will likely be too oversized for Marauders, but some (like, say, the heads) surely will fit.

I want to convert a Warshrine from a Vampire Counts Corpse Cart. I think I'll end up using a few horses from Glade Riders (while I do not think Glade Riders are worthless in this edition, I do have more of them than I need) and a ton of Green Stuff to have it be dragged by a fiery mass of fire and flaming horses protruding out of it - think the river of Rivendell in the Lord of the Rings, only with fire instead of water. Add some crystalline structures onto the cart itself, Tzeentchian symbols, that sort of thing.

Generally put the symbol of Tzeentch everywhere - I like drawing freehand, and I also have plenty of bigger and smaller bits with that symbol left over from my Chaos Space Marines.


What sort of plans do you have for basing the shadow sorcerer?Depends entirely on what I end up using for my "real" sorcerer. I want to use the exact same model, in the exact same pose, only while one will be in normal colours, the other will be a purely black and grey version thereof.

[Klose_the_Sith]

For whatever unit you intend to place the shieldbearers in you must do some special conversions so that amongst other things it includes...
A fat dwarf in blue and white vertical stripes
A short thinner dwarf in black and red
A musician with a harp/lyre in blue checks
A dwarf with a fish
A dwarf with an apron and hammer (possibly posed to be fighting fish guy)

I'm sure there are others that could be done as well but such a dwarf unit would be packed full of win beyond compare.

A fantastic list, but I can't believe you forgot the tall, skinny, all white Runelord with a sickle and a cauldron :smallbiggrin:

...

Oh man, I'll still be making Asterix customs when I'm 80 and they're going to be awesome but it's going to be eternal torture :smalleek:

[Jair Barik]

I hadn't forgotten the Runelord I just didn't bother mentioning him (list seemed a little long already)

[Closet_Skeleton]

My experiance with Chaos Marauders (kicking the crap out of them with just about everything from state troops to ungors) would tell me that even as horde they'll suck and you should just go with smaller numbers of warriors anyway.

Just because they horde better than other chaos models doesn't mean they horde well.

If you must, make sure they're supported by a hero of some kind.

[Penguinizer]

I've found that small groups of Warriors work very well. I'm still unsure on what sort of hero I should use though. I've been using a khorne hero on a juggernaut with the sword of strife. They have a potential of destroying stuff it attacks, but Frenzy is annoying. Does someone else have any other recommendations?

[DranWork]

Its fair and simple to say that Marauders arn't that great at anything. However since they cost less then half the points of chaos warriors they are still going to be taken. You need a full command with them an I tend to find that units based on the number 6 work best. 6 wide by how ever many deep seems to fit well for them. If your destroying them so easily then im guessing that the person your fighting doesn't really know how to use them that well.

A unit of 35 with a bsb attached or even a sorc, equipped with great weapons and mok is a pretty scary unit. (19 str 5 attacks isn't something to be sniffed at and the hero/sorc helps thanks to eotg and force challenge, so long as there isn't a hero in the unit you charge :smallsmile: )

My biggest problem with them use to be that they always got shot to death before they got anywhere. Now I take a hellcannon and 2 units of marauder horsemen I find that they survive well enough to get into combat and rip it up.

[DranWork]

Wrong thread dude you want the Warhammer 40k one :smallsmile:

[Closet_Skeleton]

If your destroying them so easily then im guessing that the person your fighting doesn't really know how to use them that well.

That's part of it. He's always too busy shifting them an inch back to make sure they're out of my charge range to place them somewhere useful. Which the new edition will probably stop him doing. Sometimes he takes a flee charge reaction with chaos knights or fully ranked up regiments of skaven as well.


A unit of 35 with a bsb attached or even a sorc, equipped with great weapons and mok is a pretty scary unit. (19 str 5 attacks isn't something to be sniffed at and the hero/sorc helps thanks to eotg and force challenge,

I haven't played a game this edition, so they were never getting that many attacks. But they haven't really got any better since everything I'd use against them has got better too.

Personally, if I spot a sorcerer or a battle standard in a unit of marauders I think "nice soft target, glad they're not protected by warriors". That or I'll ignore the marauders and try and fight the important enemy units away from the battle standard.


so long as there isn't a hero in the unit you charge :smallsmile: )

There's always as hero in every one of my units that isn't a ranged unit or a throwaway unit. No exceptions. In the old edition I never built my army around more than four units to accomodate this.

[Winterwind]

My experiance with Chaos Marauders (kicking the crap out of them with just about everything from state troops to ungors) would tell me that even as horde they'll suck and you should just go with smaller numbers of warriors anyway....but... Chaos Marauders are strictly better than state troops... :smallconfused:

I mean, you can get an Imperial swordsman for the same points as a Marauder with shield and light armour. The only difference between the two will be that the Marauder has +1 WS, +1 I, and gets to re-roll panic tests.

And that's without a Mark, which will, for some negligible price like half or, at most, one point per model, give them some major benefit.

___

I've had a 2,000 points game against Skaven yesterday, and am now firmly convinced that Skaven are utterly broken in this edition. And I can back it up, too.

See, the player whose turn it is will, on average, have 7 power dice. The other player can have at most 6 dispel dice, but will usually have less. This can be changed by channeling, but Skaven are amongst the best at channeling (having that Warp Generator thingy in addition to the Staff of Channeling, as well as Warpstone Tokens for a further power dice boost), and the other player is still unlikely to end up with 6 dispel dice.

6 power dice, +4 from a Grey Prophet's level, is 25 on average.

Which is enough to get the Dreaded Thirteenth Spell off.

And the opponent will usually not be able to dispel - as I said, the opponent will usually have less than 6 dispel dice available, so he's unlikely to beat the Skaven player's roll.

In that game yesterday, the Skaven player simply spammed the Dreaded Thirteenth Spell. Got it off three times, two times eradicating an entire unit and thus getting units himself. But then, losing 3d6 models per turn, no save, is lethal enough anyway, even without the opponent getting models in addition. That Grey Prophet killed off about 600 points with that spell alone (and about 150 further points with other spells. And that's with a level 4 caster who may re-roll dispell rolls on the other side). And other than a dispel scroll (which is expensive, takes a valuable arcane artifact slot, and can be present only once anyway) there is pretty much no way to stop that.

Horde armies may have a slight chance to survive this. Elite armies? If there is a Grey Prophet on the other side, and the Skaven player realizes just how powerful the Thirteenth Spell is in this edition, I see no point in putting any models on the table.

(the fact he had two Doomwheels didn't help, either)

[Eldan]

Ouch. But yeah, I always thought the 13th spell was pretty damn strong.

There is a scroll somewhere which works similar to a dispel scroll, but turns the enemy caster into a frog. That might help against grey prophets.

It's hilarious when used, actually. Especialyl since in the local game shop, the shop owner used it on a Slann.

[Closet_Skeleton]

...but... Chaos Marauders are strictly better than state troops... :smallconfused:

I mean, you can get an Imperial swordsman for the same points as a Marauder with shield and light armour. The only difference between the two will be that the Marauder has +1 WS, +1 I, and gets to re-roll panic tests.

Empire Swordsmen have WS4 I4 as well. They have the exact same stats as marauders. The WS3 I3 state troops are all 5 points a model unless you upgrade them with spears. The only thing the marauders have over them is re-rolling panic tests, which the detatchment system is better than in every way. You can give your marauders flails or great weapons but I'm still getting a 6+ save (just like last edition, in fact, swordsmen have got worse against S3-4 and are the same against S5 and better against S6, so flails and great weapons aren't so much of an advantage anymore)

But the important differance is that chaos marauders are Chaos' worst infantry, while swordsmen are the Empire's best infantry (greatswords and flagellants are tarpits, not real elite troops like some players think they are). Therefore the chaos marauders will probably be supporting chaos warriors while the state troops will be supported by detatchments and heroes, which makes them a lot better than marauders. 20 marauders with light armour and shields may be theoretically equal to 20 swordsmen in every way, but you're a lot more likely to see a 20 man block of marauders while you'll never see 20 swordsmen on their own.

You seriously try sending 35 marauders against 35 swordsmen and you'll find that you don't have more ranks than the enemy because you've been worn down by shooting, then you've been flank charged by a detatchment so that your enemy has more attacks and has further reduced your ranks and got more combat resolution and you've been stand and shot at by another detatchment further reducing your ranks. You can buff your guys with magic but I'll have magic too and probably more of it since my wizards don't cost extra points due to having pointless combat skills. Even if chaos try to horde, they'll always end up outnumbered because your opponent doesn't have to waste points on incredibly expensive chaos characters.

Even if you ignore the expensive chaos units that mean you'll always be outnumbered and just take marauders, then you'll find you just have a crappy wannabe Empire infantry army that'll loose to any real Empire infantry army. I've been outnumbered by mass marauders as Empire and I won because my units were so much better at working together.

You can use warhounds to take shooting hits and mess with my detatchments, but the simple fact is that the detatchment system is better than any other supporting role unit in the game.

45 marauders against 30 swordsmen with an 15 man halberdier detatchment will lose every time, even if it'll likely be stubborn the first round of combat it loses. Say the marauders are 7 wide, they have 15 attacks of which 7.5 will hit, 3.75 will wound and 2.5 will get past the 5+ save. The 5 wide swordsmen get 11 attacks, 5.5 hit, 2.75 wound and 1.8 get past the 5+ save. The halberd detatchment on the side gets 10 attacks, 5 of which hit and 3.3 wound and 2.7 get through the save. The marauders get 5 attacks back at the halberdiers, 3.3 hit, 1.6 wound and 1.4 get past the 6+ save.

So the marauders have killed 2.5 swordsmen and 1.4 halberdiers. The swordsmen have killed 1.8 marauders and the halberdiers have killed 2.7 marauders.

Combat resolution
Empire
5 rounded kills
3 ranks
flank
banner
charging

Chaos
4 rounded kills
ranks are negated by flank
banner
charging

Empire win by 5. Pity the marauders are steadfast, otherwise they'd be butchered as I constantly did last edition. Except that I've probably won anyway from a tactical perspective since the real reason I did this combat was to kill any sorcerers hiding in this unit. I can then happily butcher the rest of your army safe in the knowledge than until 6 halberdiers die (which on average will take 4 rounds, or probably 3 rounds if you're smart enough to direct attacks away from the swordsmen) I'll keep winning combat due to negating ranks and this unit of yours isn't doing anything.

Great weapons on the marauders will probably help. A character will probably help too, but then I'll probably have a warrior priest and therefore hatred for the first round, which changes the calculations completely.

[Arcanoi]

stuff

... Okay. So they have the same statbar, exchanging Detachments for re-rolled panic tests. Except I don't quite understand the follow-up rant about how Empire Swordsmen are better than HW&S Marauders because of the other things you can field. That's unfounded extrapolation not based on the unit's statbar, as well as personal experience, which means next to nothing.

[Closet_Skeleton]

... Okay. So they have the same statbar, exchanging Detachments for re-rolled panic tests. Except I don't quite understand the follow-up rant about how Empire Swordsmen are better than HW&S Marauders because of the other things you can field. That's unfounded extrapolation not based on the unit's statbar, as well as personal experience, which means next to nothing.

The other stuff that can be fielded is incredibly important because that's the way the game will actually play out. After all, if I take no detatchments, the swordsmen are actually weaker because they're not using their advantage. Inter-unit synergy is the only way that Empire can actually win games since they don't have any super units except for steam tanks, which were mainly used for points denial anyway.

What's going to be supporting the marauders is more important than how good the marauders are at fighting on their own. Marauders are going to be supported by chaos hounds and marauder horsemen, maybe by helcannons and very rarely by chaos knights (who usually have something better to be doing, I'd be very worried by any chaos player smart enough to use his knights to support marauders). Empire are going to be supported by detatchents (amazing), ranged units (very good at panicking chaos hounds and horsemen) or mortars (just as good at killing infantry as helcannons but cheaper) or pistoliers (better but more expensive than marauder horsemen) or knights (better at combat than marauder horseman but not fast cavalry). Character wise its Exalted Heroes (good for me since its less points for you to spend on support), Chaos Sorcerers (who I want to kill because magic is most likely to ruin my day, so don't want these guys in your units), battle standard bearers (who I also want to kill and will probably send vann horstmann's speculum against since you have to challange) or chaos lords (you're really putting a chaos lord in with marauders, really?).

If your opponent lets your marauders fight unsupported state troops head on then that's irrelevant since either he's such a bad player that you'll only lose against him due to bad luck or you've fallen into a trap and he wanted you to do that.

[Arcanoi]

The other stuff that can be fielded is incredibly important because that's the way the game will actually play out. After all, if I take no detatchments, the swordsmen are actually weaker because they're not using their advantage. Inter-unit synergy is the only way that Empire can actually win games since they don't have any super units except for steam tanks, which were mainly used for points denial anyway.

If your opponent lets your marauders fight unsupported state troops head on then that's irrelevant since either he's such a bad player that you'll only lose against him due to bad luck or you've fallen into a trap and he wanted you to do that.

So a Chaos Warriors player who forces an opponent to deal with his 35 Marauders gets no benefit from it at all? He could never possibly have a plan himself, or be able to outmaneuver his opponent? That's not a trap that you're putting effort into to take out his most inexpensive unit while his Chaos Knights and Warriors come up the board and engage on their own terms? Because that's what you seem to be suggesting.

[Closet_Skeleton]

So a Chaos Warriors player who forces an opponent to deal with his 35 Marauders gets no benefit from it at all? He could never possibly have a plan himself, or be able to outmaneuver his opponent? That's not a trap that you're putting effort into to take out his most inexpensive unit while his Chaos Knights and Warriors come up the board and engage on their own terms? Because that's what you seem to be suggesting.

Of course he will, but I'll have at least one other identical or equivilant block of detatchment supported infantry myself. Its just harder for chaos since they have to rely on easily panicked hounds and horsemen and have no decent ranged unit to deal with the opponent's slightly easier to panic equivilants.

If chaos have a hero in that unit then they've spent too many points to use it as a throw away unit. Empire can afford to lose heroes. Well, I prefer to give the heroes a horse so he can leg it out of there if necessary, but that's no always possible.

If I put five pistoliers in front of his chaos warriors then he has to hope his magic can deal with them or I'll just flee and slow his warriors down. If he puts some chaos hounds in front of my swordsmen I can deal with them a lot easier and even if he does flee his hounds have little chance of ralling.

I'll admit I'm partly biased by having fought too many bad chaos players and not having tried the new edition yet.

[Winterwind]

It's hilarious when used, actually. Especialyl since in the local game shop, the shop owner used it on a Slann....so, nothing changed whatsoever? :smallbiggrin:


*argumentation*Mmm. Sounds sensible to me. And sorry for having gotten the Swordsmen statline wrong; I honestly thought the Empire used a straight-3-profile on all their core troops. :smallredface:

However, I think there is a whole bunch of variables the Chaos player could manipulate to get a more favourable outcome. This includes: Getting a Mark on the Marauders, equipping the Marauders with great weapons instead (would make them cost as much as halberdiers, lacking the armour (but the armour will be punched through anyway) and striking last (doesn't matter much for a big unit in the new edition though), but having more WS (which does matter), really deploying as a horde, 10 wide, so they'd fight with three ranks, or any combination thereof.


Also, any comments on my statement regarding Skaven? How shall we deal with the 13th Spell these days? :smalleek:

[Closet_Skeleton]

Ungors with spears are in theory absolutely terrible but seem okay at butchering marauders to dust as well. That's probably a case of bad luck.


However, I think there is a whole bunch of variables the Chaos player could manipulate to get a more favourable outcome.

Probably. Still doesn't stop them being marauders.


Getting a Mark on the Marauders, equipping the Marauders with great weapons instead (would make them cost as much as halberdiers

I heard marauders don't get marks, but I don't have the book so I'm probably wrong. 1 point great weapons sounds rediculously cheap too.


lacking the armour (but the armour will be punched through anyway)

By halberdiers or chaos warriors or saurus, but not by swordsmen, skaven, goblins or marauders with hand weapons.


and striking last (doesn't matter much for a big unit in the new edition though)

I'm not sure how stepping up works on flanks, but going last could be a serious problem there.

If marauders do really get a 1 point great weapon upgrade they might be the only thing that can really horde with great weapons in this game. I know I'm never going to horde with greatswords or bestigors at 10+ points a model.


but having more WS (which does matter),

Than halberdiers yeah, but plenty of swordsmen will be around still. Plenty of dwarves, elves and other chaos players too.


really deploying as a horde, 10 wide, so they'd fight with three ranks, or any combination thereof.

The problem I have with horde is:

You're paying double the points to make your units wider so that only 7 extra models can fight (or maybe 11 extra models if you wouldn't be deploying 7 wide anyway, which I don't).

You're more likely to lose steadfast since 30 models 5 wide are cheaper and have more ranks than 40 models 10 wide. Except I don't have the book so for all I know it doesn't work that way. WS4 Great weapons are good at killing stuff, but you pretty much have to be killing a lot to beat your opponent.

The bigger the unit the more the 13th spell hurts.


Also, any comments on my statement regarding Skaven? How shall we deal with the 13th Spell these days? :smalleek:

Kill the grey seer.

It's an all or nothing stratergy that works off luck. There's not really that much you can do against it now that dispel scrolls are nerfed.

[Winterwind]

I heard marauders don't get marks, but I don't have the book so I'm probably wrong. 1 point great weapons sounds rediculously cheap too.Marauders get marks, just as all other Chaos infantry. And all their upgrades cost 1 point - flails, shields, additional handweapons, light armour, great weapons. Unlike for Chaos Warriors, it is not mandatory for them to take an upgrade, so one could also leave them naked with a handweapon, for 4 points apiece.


By halberdiers or chaos warriors or saurus, but not by swordsmen, skaven, goblins or marauders with hand weapons.Aye; I was thinking along the lines of comparing the halberdiers and great weapon marauders directly.


I'm not sure how stepping up works on flanks, but going last could be a serious problem there.I have to admit, I'm not sure either. :smallredface:


If marauders do really get a 1 point great weapon upgrade they might be the only thing that can really horde with great weapons in this game. I know I'm never going to horde with greatswords or bestigors at 10+ points a model.Quite true.


Than halberdiers yeah, but plenty of swordsmen will be around still. Plenty of dwarves, elves and other chaos players too.Oh, sure. Still, it doesn't hurt. :smallwink:


The problem I have with horde is:

You're paying double the points to make your units wider so that only 7 extra models can fight (or maybe 11 extra models if you wouldn't be deploying 7 wide anyway, which I don't).

You're more likely to lose steadfast since 30 models 5 wide are cheaper and have more ranks than 40 models 10 wide. Except I don't have the book so for all I know it doesn't work that way. WS4 Great weapons are good at killing stuff, but you pretty much have to be killing a lot to beat your opponent.You are correct, it does work that way.

As for paying double the points... well, you get 11 additional attacks in comparison to deploying 5 wide - in comparison to 10 attacks you would have usually gotten. So you may have paid double the points, but you have more than doubled your number of attacks. Seems quite worthwhile to me...


The bigger the unit the more the 13th spell hurts.I'm away from the army book, but I think the 13th spell simply kills 3d6 models, and if that's enough to destroy the entire unit, it replaces them with Clan Rats. So, a bigger unit is actually better against the 13th spell, as it's less likely to be entirely destroyed. Also, the cheaper the individual models, the less harm is done.


Kill the grey seer.

It's an all or nothing stratergy that works off luck. There's not really that much you can do against it now that dispel scrolls are nerfed.Easier said than done. Grey Seers have a 4+ ward save and are usually well protected. For instance, my opponent has his Grey Seer travel in a 5x5 (or maybe 5x6) formation of Stormvermin with full command, accompanied by a BSB with great weapon (and a 4+ ward save) and an Assassin with a +1S, Multiple Wounds(2) weapon and something that makes all successful to-hit rolls against him be re-rolled. That Assassin by himself is already quite ridiculous now that his Always Strike First allows him to re-roll his attacks pretty much all of the time; destroying the entirety of that unit is all but impossible. Especially since it usually hangs back a bit until it's safe for it to advance and usually has other units protecting its flanks.

[Jair Barik]

Actually a grey seer only gets a 4+ ward save when riding on the screaming bell. Also its 4d6 casualties from the unit, if the unit is destroyed it is replaced by a unit of clanrats with any equipment set up.

[Winterwind]

Actually a grey seer only gets a 4+ ward save when riding on the screaming bell.In that case, I guess my opponent has the Amulet of Preservation on him (and, presumably, the Armour of Destiny on the BSB, for straight 4+ ward saves on all his character models in that unit).


Also its 4d6 casualties from the unit, if the unit is destroyed it is replaced by a unit of clanrats with any equipment set up.Ah, alright. Misremembered, then.

[TheThan]

On the subject of dwarf slayers, I once saw a dwarf giant slayer get eaten by a giant, not only was it incredibly ironic, it was also quite hilarious. The giant then proceeded to go and smash up a dwarf cannon and crew (complete with hero none the less).

[Closet_Skeleton]

Marauders get marks, just as all other Chaos infantry. And all their upgrades cost 1 point - flails, shields, additional handweapons, light armour, great weapons. Unlike for Chaos Warriors, it is not mandatory for them to take an upgrade, so one could also leave them naked with a handweapon, for 4 points apiece.

Mark of nurgle is rediculously good, if you can get it cheap.


Aye; I was thinking along the lines of comparing the halberdiers and great weapon marauders directly.

The sad fact is that halberdiers suck compared to pretty much everything. Except maybe regular goblins with all their overpriced upgrades.


Easier said than done. Grey Seers have a 4+ ward save and are usually well protected. For instance, my opponent has his Grey Seer travel in a 5x5 (or maybe 5x6) formation of Stormvermin with full command, accompanied by a BSB with great weapon (and a 4+ ward save) and an Assassin with a +1S, Multiple Wounds(2) weapon and something that makes all successful to-hit rolls against him be re-rolled. That Assassin by himself is already quite ridiculous now that his Always Strike First allows him to re-roll his attacks pretty much all of the time; destroying the entirety of that unit is all but impossible. Especially since it usually hangs back a bit until it's safe for it to advance and usually has other units protecting its flanks.

Sounds like he's spending a lot of points in one unit.

30 T3 5+ save models don't sound invincible to me, but I'm used to playing Empire. Wood Elves don't have mortars to kill that unit in two rounds with.

Okay, so I checked the rules for the 13th spell. It can target:

A single infantry unit within 24 inches and in line of sight.

So put a unit of cavalry, or some trees, or monstrous infantry, in front of his grey seer, and he can't use the spell unless he has the elevation of a bell.

Except he can, because all he has to do to get line of sight is skitterleap into a differant unit. So make sure that's exactly what you want him to do.

Alternatively he can kill your cover unit with magic, then you're stuffed. Which is why trees are better.

[Jair Barik]

Except now you have true line of sight allowing a grey seer to look through units. You can no longer (as I understand) simply stick a single unit in front of another to block line of sight.

[YPU]

Except now you have true line of sight allowing a grey seer to look through units. You can no longer (as I understand) simply stick a single unit in front of another to block line of sight.

It does provide cover.

[Jair Barik]

Yes but cover does nothing to save you from spells does it? Especially spells that 'remove models as casualties' as opposed to taking wounds or allowing saves of any kind.

[Winterwind]

The cover only gives the unit behind it a -1 (for forest) or -2 (for another unit) modifier when being shot at. Doesn't block line-of-sight in any way.

The only thing that blocks line of sight reliably in this edition would be some high building or anything like that, and we do not usually play with terrain of that type here.

That's also why the Tomb Kings' Casket of Souls has become... quite a bit more powerful. :smallwink:

[Jair Barik]

Ah but you forget free reforms with musicians!

Have your entire army march backwards constantly reforming so that nobody is actually ever looking at the casket! I see no flaw with this plan whatsoever :smalltongue:

[Winterwind]

...XD

Okay, that's gotta be the most hilariously insane and insanely hilarious plan ever conceived. My sincerest respect to you, good sir. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

Well, what could go wrong. Except for rear-charges by charriots and skeleton cavalry.

[Winterwind]

And everything else, since Tomb Kings have spells that give their units another movement in the magic phase, and they can cast them frequently. But who cares? It's awesome, and that's what matters, right? :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

Well, it's what I would do in the real world. Run away as fast as I could.

[Erloas]

The whole marauder vs swordsman debate is a bit pointless, since Chaos has 12 other armies they can face, and none of them have Empire's Detachment rule.
About the only armies that will have a good chance of matching marauders in terms of model count is Empire, Skaven, and O&G. With the possibility of TK and VC as well but less likely because while a zombie is cheaper (depending on upgrades) it is far inferior, and skeletons can do it, but with more expensive units.

And the whole point of a marauder unit like that is that it does something no other chaos unit can do, generate good static combat resolution, and has ranks to negate steadfast. They aren't a killy unit, they are a support unit that does things warriors and knights can't do. If the marauders are being used on their own then whomever is using them has completely missed the entire point of having marauders in the list.


The main issue I see with someone spamming the Dreaded 13th Spell is the fact that rolling 6 dice to reliable get it off you are running a very high risk of loss of power. And most of those results will put a big hurt on the caster and probably the unit he is in as well. And popping warpstone tokens to get there is going to hurt fairly often too.

[Closet_Skeleton]

And the whole point of a marauder unit like that is that it does something no other chaos unit can do, generate good static combat resolution, and has ranks to negate steadfast. They aren't a killy unit, they are a support unit that does things warriors and knights can't do. If the marauders are being used on their own then whomever is using them has completely missed the entire point of having marauders in the list.

But once you're putting heroes in 40 strong marauder units you don't have that many points for warriors and knights. Even though the marauders themselves aren't taking up that many points.

[Winterwind]

And the whole point of a marauder unit like that is that it does something no other chaos unit can do, generate good static combat resolution, and has ranks to negate steadfast. They aren't a killy unit, they are a support unit that does things warriors and knights can't do. If the marauders are being used on their own then whomever is using them has completely missed the entire point of having marauders in the list.Thanks. That was quite enlightening, and finally made me decide on how to equip my marauders. Armour and shields it is, though not in a horde, but in two 5x5 or 5x6 units. :smallcool:


The main issue I see with someone spamming the Dreaded 13th Spell is the fact that rolling 6 dice to reliable get it off you are running a very high risk of loss of power. And most of those results will put a big hurt on the caster and probably the unit he is in as well. And popping warpstone tokens to get there is going to hurt fairly often too.Well, the thing is, usually getting a loss of control is actually a good thing when this spell is concerned, because almost always having that spell cast with irresistible force is worth more than the consequences of the loss of control.

For instance, in that game, when my opponent cast the 13th spell three times, once he actually did get a loss of control. The result? An S10 hit on all models in base contact with the Grey Seer. Since my opponent had the Grey Seer stand at a corner of the block specifically to minimize the results of a loss of control, that were 3 Stormvermin hit. Out of which only 2 died. That's, what, 14 points? Maybe 16 if he had any upgrades on them, I'm not sure. For a spell that turned 430 points on my side (10 Glade Guard and my level 4 Spellweaver) into 11 Clan Rats for him. That's a pretty good deal, if you ask me. :smalltongue:


But once you're putting heroes in 40 strong marauder units you don't have that many points for warriors and knights. Even though the marauders themselves aren't taking up that many points.Erloas didn't mention anything about putting heroes into these units though, and in fact doing so would be the exact opposite of the logical conclusion of the function he sees for Marauders.


(by the way, I know I promised a battle report more than a week ago. I still haven't gotten to writing it down, but I definitely will, sooner or later. Knowing me, more likely later. But I will. :smallredface:)

[Jair Barik]

Personally I'm a little surprised he placed the grey seer in a unit of stormvermin. My intention is to place him at the corner of a large block of clanrats. Let the combat heroes go with the Stormvermin and place the mage in a unit that is more expendable. On that note note I'm thinking of replacing the 40 man unit of skaven with two 30 man units of clanrats that are un-horded (working some points round to get them).

[Winterwind]

Personally I'm a little surprised he placed the grey seer in a unit of stormvermin. My intention is to place him at the corner of a large block of clanrats. Let the combat heroes go with the Stormvermin and place the mage in a unit that is more expendable. On that note note I'm thinking of replacing the 40 man unit of skaven with two 30 man units of clanrats that are un-horded (working some points round to get them).As far as I remember, his army list went something like this:
Grey Seer
- Amulet of Preservation (4+ ward save), Staff of Channeling (channel on 5+), Dispel Scroll, Lore of Plague
- Army General, with Stormvermin

Chieftain
- Armour of Destiny (heavy armour, 4+ ward save), great weapon
- Battle Standard Bearer, with Stormvermin

Assassin
- Blade of Corruption (+1S, deals 2 wounds), something that makes successful attacks on him be re-rolled (no idea what it's called)
- with Stormvermin

Warlock Engineer
- Level 1 (Lore of Doom), Warp-Energy Condenser (creates additional power die on 5+)
- with Clan Rats

30 Stormvermin, full command
- Warpflame Thrower

30 Clan Rats, shields, full command

20 Slaves, musician

5 Giant Rats

~8 Jezzails, champion

Doomwheel

Doomwheel

Warp-Lightning Cannon
I may be forgetting a second unit of Slaves or Giant Rats, and I'm not sure to which unit the Warpflame Thrower was attached, but I think the above was basically it.

...I also realize his Grey Seer is illegal with this configuration, having two arcane artifacts. Though I assume it's a genuine mistake on his part, rather than deliberate cheating. I'll have to tell him that the next time I see/play him.

[Jair Barik]

Hmmm he has some pretty glaring flaws in his list if you ask me. His list is really lacking in infantry for a skaven list, his giant rat unit is easy prey so all its likely to do is cause panic tests, and all in all he is really putting that stormvermin unit at risk. It looks like a real ranged fire magnet with both the BSB and the seer in it plus he has given it the warpfire thrower attatchment. From the sounds of things hes using all his dice on dreaded 13th so he will be risking his good troops to both miscasts and his weapons misfire.

That said I can see where he could be causing you problems. Two doomwheels could really hit you hard and he has a good fire base as well with the cannon+a decent sized unit of jezzails.

[Winterwind]

Hmmm he has some pretty glaring flaws in his list if you ask me. His list is really lacking in infantry for a skaven list, his giant rat unit is easy prey so all its likely to do is cause panic tests, and all in all he is really putting that stormvermin unit at risk. It looks like a real ranged fire magnet with both the BSB and the seer in it plus he has given it the warpfire thrower attatchment. From the sounds of things hes using all his dice on dreaded 13th so he will be risking his good troops to both miscasts and his weapons misfire.

That said I can see where he could be causing you problems. Two doomwheels could really hit you hard and he has a good fire base as well with the cannon+a decent sized unit of jezzails.He used however many dice he could spare on other stuff, and only once he was down to 6 dice he cast the dreaded 13th spell. Amongst others, that Plague spell that jumps from unit to unit which also managed to kill about 150 points in a single turn.

As for panic... well, he keeps his crucial units in range of the general and BSB, so they usually test with Ld10 and re-rolls. Not very risky that way.

And, I imagine he might be using a different list against different opponents. He knew I was playing Wood Elves before writing down his army list, after all.

[Penguinizer]

To all 'ye fellow Warriors of Chaos players. How do you get anything done at low points costs. :smallfrown:

My LGS is holding a 2x750 point doubles tournament, and I'm having trouble thinking of an army list. The main problem comes from the fact that at 182.5 points for a Hero, my hands are rather tied. I can either go with a level 2 walking sorcerer but only one more infantry unit in the entire army. Or I can have a Khorne hero on a Juggernaut with nothing else except maybe a 5 point potion.

The 3 unit minimum rule is also rather annoying. I mainly use 12 man Warrior groups, but at 242 points a pop, they're not that good for small games. This is made worse by the fact that the models I have are for larger points cost armies. Made even more worse by the fact that Warhounds don't count towards the minimum.

This is the only strong-ish questionably legal army I could think of.

General:
Exalted Hero with Mark of Khorne, a Juggernaut and a potion of speed.

Core:
10x Marauder Horsemen with light armor, flails and throwing spears. Upgraded with a standard and chieftain.

Special:
5x Chaos Knights with the Mark of Khorne and a Champion+Standard.

Rare:
Scyla Anfingrimm. (I can't even fit two normal spawn with no upgrades in this slot.)


The whole army comes to around 750 points on the dot. The questionable legality comes from the fact that I'm not sure Scyla counts towards the 3 unit minimum. The plan I'm forming involves my friend playing Dark Elves, having a bolt thrower, crossbowmen and corsairs led by a Sorcerer of some sorts. They'd try to hold one side with ranged firepower while I steamroll the other with the fact that my statlines are bigger than theirs.


As for changes to the army list. My hands are tied as I only have warriors, another spawn and more characters to add to the army.

[Winterwind]

I'll be able to give more concrete advice later, when I'm back home and at my army book... but for now: Any idea what your ally is going to be?

I think I'd go with the sorcerer, two units of Warriors (perhaps scale down a bit on upgrades; surely you can get them to less than 242 apiece?) and a unit of Marauder Horsemen - perhaps Chaos Knights instead of the Horsemen if you can fit them in after dropping a few upgrades.

[Penguinizer]

My ally is going to likely be Dark Elves assuming I can pester him into playing. :smallbiggrin:

Assuming that doesn't happen, I could probably ask either a Goblins player (likely to play a cavalry/chariot heavy army) or another Warriors player (who probably will be facing the same problems as me.)

The thing with the warriors is I like having the 242 point setup mainly because it has full command, mark of tzeentch and shields. I'd rather not skimp out on any of those. I'm also iffy on having Marauder Horsemen in groups of less than 10 due to the new Flanking rules. A cheap flanking group of Horsemen comes to around 174 points.

Even with a minimal sorcerer upgraded to level 2 with a spell familiar, I'd still have to remove 43 points off of somewhere. I could remove the marks, but I'm not too happy with reducing my ward saves for the warriors.

[Arcanoi]

You could switch out Scylla for a 20-ish man unit of foot Marauders with Shields and Light Armor...

[Winterwind]

My ally is going to likely be Dark Elves assuming I can pester him into playing. :smallbiggrin:

Assuming that doesn't happen, I could probably ask either a Goblins player (likely to play a cavalry/chariot heavy army) or another Warriors player (who probably will be facing the same problems as me.)Well, then I'd go for heavy infantry all the more. If it's the Dark Elves or Goblins player, you provide the one thing they don't really have, while they take care of the shooting and quick maneuvering, if it's another Warriors player, you will have enough infantry for it to support each other.


The thing with the warriors is I like having the 242 point setup mainly because it has full command, mark of tzeentch and shields. I'd rather not skimp out on any of those.Mark and Shields you should definitely keep. I think you could probably get rid of at least part of the command though without losing too much.


I'm also iffy on having Marauder Horsemen in groups of less than 10 due to the new Flanking rules. A cheap flanking group of Horsemen comes to around 174 points. A group of 10 Marauder Horsemen is hardly better for flanking purposes than a unit of 5 Marauder Horsemen, because you need to have two full ranks at the end of the combat to negate ranks, so what you are doing with 10 is speculate on not suffering any losses at all, and that's just not going to happen (not to mention potential losses from shooting).


Even with a minimal sorcerer upgraded to level 2 with a spell familiar, I'd still have to remove 43 points off of somewhere. I could remove the marks, but I'm not too happy with reducing my ward saves for the warriors.I'd rather go with the power familiar myself. Making the difference between your power dice and the opponent's dispel dice is pretty important in this edition. If you don't pick a Mark and go with one of the regular lores, you will have three spells anyway, that should be enough most of the time.

[Penguinizer]

So, would something like this be better:


General: Chaos Sorcerer, level 2 with a Power Familiar. Taking spells from the Lore of Fire.

Core:
12x Chaos Warriors with Shields, Mark of Tzeentch and a Champion.

12x Chaos Warriors with Shields, Mark of Tzeentch and a Champion.


This gives me 150 more points to play with. I could add Standards and 5x Marauder Horsemen with flails and a chieftain. Or I could add the Horsemen and 2x 5 Warhounds to support the Horsemen.

[Jair Barik]

I've never been sure about team games. Is it better to take the same army so that your tactics + special rules are the same (with certain things that benefit allied army units being put to best use), that players use armies that fill in one anothers weaknesses (e.g. empire hunline backing up a brettonian cavalry charge) or two different armies with similar strengths (e.g. empire gunline with a dwarf gunline, or brettonian cavalry charge joining a cavalry heavy WoC army).

[Winterwind]

Sounds good to me. Alternately, you could try something like
General: Chaos Sorcerer, level 2

Core:
12x Chaos Warriors with Shields, Mark of Tzeentch and a Musician.

12x Chaos Warriors with Shields, Mark of Tzeentch.

Special:
5x Chaos Knights
750 to the point. But your variant sounds good, too. :smallsmile:

[Arcanoi]

General: Chaos Sorcerer, level 2

Core:
12x Chaos Warriors with Shields, Mark of Tzeentch and a Musician.

12x Chaos Warriors with Shields, Mark of Tzeentch.

Special:
5x Chaos Knights


I'd cast my vote for this. I'm a big fan of Chaos Knights in 750 points.

[Penguinizer]

I'm probably going to try to keep a bit of fairness in it (as much as Warriors of Chaos+Dark Elves can).

I'm not sure if I'll even take Horsemen. I might replace it with a spawn or two. A single Marauder Horsemen unit doesn't seem all that good. I find that they need other cavalry in addition to them to get anything done.

[Closet_Skeleton]

If I were to make a 750 point chaos army, which I wouldn't.

Chaos Sorcerer
level 2, lore of fire
120 points

Just there to be cheap, since chaos can't compete at 750 if anyone decides to magic spam

20 chaos marauders
flails/great weapons, full command
120 points

15 chaos warriors
halberds, full command
270 points

5 Chaos knights
champion, standard bearer
240 points

Oh my, a 750 point chaos army that actually has units. I've seen 1500 point chaos armies with less models than this.

Or maybe
Exalted Hero
shield
115 points
He has lord level stats and a 3+ save, what more does he really need to compete at this level?

15 chaos warriors
halberds, full command, mark of nurgle
300 points

15 chaos warriors
shields, full command, mark of tzeentch
290 points

5 chaos hounds
30 points

5 chaos hounds
30 points

Oh no, crappy minimum unit rules that should scale down at 750 points.

10 marauders
40 points

But I suppose nothing is stopping you from.

Sorcerer
85 points

40 marauderers
great weapons, full command
220 points

35 marauderers
great weapons, full command
195 points

5 Chaos knights
full command
250 points

Or

Exalted Hero
shield, barded steed, biting blade
136 points

5 marauder horsemen
throwing axes, light armour, musician
86 points

5 marauder horsemen
throwing axes, light armour, musician
86 points

9 Chaos Knights
full command, mark of nurgle
440

If you want to make your enemy angry with something that's almost invincible until you hit some inevitable bad luck and can only kill one unit at at time.

Or you could try something completely unorthodox.
635
Exalted Hero
shield
115 points

10 chaos warriors
additional hand weapons
166 points

10 chaos warriors
additional hand weapons
166 points

10 chaos warriors
additional hand weapons
166 points

25 chaos marauders
flails/great weapons, standard bearer, musician
137 points

[Winterwind]

Chaos Sorcerer
level 2, lore of fire
120 points

Just there to be cheap, since chaos can't compete at 750 if anyone decides to magic spamWait, I'm confused. What's "magic spam"? :smallconfused:

The term would be perfectly clear in the context of the old edition, but in this one, the likelihood you will get your spells through when you have a single level 2 caster isn't significantly different no matter whether there is one caster on the other side, or six of them (they may perhaps have 5 dispel dice rather than 4, to your 7 power dice. Oh boo-hoo. And there not being any difference at all is not an unlikely outcome either.).

What matters far more is who has the highest leveled caster on the battlefield - if one side has a level 4 caster, and the other has ten level 1 casters, the side with the one level 4 caster will completely dominate the magic phase, and the other side will be lucky to get even a single spell through (other than by irresistible force). But, I can't think of many armies that can field a lord-level caster in 750 points, so that's not an issue either.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Wait, I'm confused. What's "magic spam"? :smallconfused:

The term would be perfectly clear in the context of the old edition, but in this one, the likelihood you will get your spells through when you have a single level 2 caster isn't significantly different no matter whether there is one caster on the other side, or six of them (they may perhaps have 5 dispel dice rather than 4, to your 7 power dice. Oh boo-hoo. And there not being any difference at all is not an unlikely outcome either.).

You can't "wizard spam" effectively anymore, but you can still make an army that throws a lot of points into using magic effectively.


What matters far more is who has the highest leveled caster on the battlefield - if one side has a level 4 caster, and the other has ten level 1 casters, the side with the one level 4 caster will completely dominate the magic phase, and the other side will be lucky to get even a single spell through (other than by irresistible force).

Wizards can still only cast each spell once and only know a limited number of spells. Three level 2s can channel and potentially cast more magic than 1 level 4.


But, I can't think of many armies that can field a lord-level caster in 750 points, so that's not an issue either.

187 points is the limit on lords in 750 points.

So its just Empire, Dogs of War and Orcs and Goblins (old vampire counts would have been able to as well, stupid new necromancers :smallfurious:). Bretonians are 3 points under getting in a level 3 maiden. :smallfrown:

[Erloas]

Part of the point with the not being able to spam magic is that no matter how many spells you have, you have a pre-set (and undetermined) number of power dice. Having 10 level 1s might mean you have 10 spells to cast, but if you only have 6 power dice there is no possible way for you to get off nearly that many spells.

Even with channeling, you probably aren't going to have the power dice to cast more then 3-4 spells during most rounds, and even the number of spells will depend on the lore you are using. Though some of the army specific lores with more spells at the older, lower casting values you might be able to get few more off. Though not too many more because without duplicate lower level spells, even army specific ones will have quite a few spells in the 8-12 casting range which will generally take at least 2, often 3 dice to get off reliably.


As for the army lists, at 750 points, about 1 level 2 wizard is all the more anyone could expect to field. Sure a few armies could field more, but they are also armies that would really hurt by not having more models on the field or a more combat based hero to protect them.

[Winterwind]

You can't "wizard spam" effectively anymore, but you can still make an army that throws a lot of points into using magic effectively.Oh, that's what you mean.

Yeah, in that case, I agree, but I don't see what prevents Warriors of Chaos from doing that effectively. With their familiars, they have some pretty awesome arcane artifacts for this very purpose.


Wizards can still only cast each spell once and only know a limited number of spells. Three level 2s can channel and potentially cast more magic than 1 level 4.If the level 4 is using a regular lore, he has five spells. That should be enough most of the time. The power dice will not suffice to cast all of them anyway. If you take too many casters in 8th edition, you will frequently end up with some of them not doing anything whatsoever in a turn, because there were no power dice left for them.

The part about the channeling is true, but most of the time it won't matter. Occasionally, the three wizards will end up with a die (very rarely more) more than usual, but most of the time they won't.

The part where the level 4 caster truly gets a massive advantage though is the additional +2 at every casting and dispelling attempt. That's basically like rolling one additional die every time (that happens to roll slightly below average). This additional +2 forces the opponent to use more dispel dice than they usually would, and allows the level 4 caster to use less dispel dice than he usually would, so effectively, the advantage of having a higher leveled caster is equivalent to having a whole ton of additional dice, not just the occasional one from channeling.

I recently watched a game where one side had a level 1 caster, the other a level 4 caster. What happened? Well, often enough, the player with the level 4 caster used less dispel dice than his opponent used power dice, and still managed to successfully dispel. The player with the level 1 caster did not get a single spell through, not even once. If he had had several level 1 casters instead, it wouldn't have changed anything - six of them would channel one additional power die on average, which wouldn't have made any difference, because the other player usually had dispel dice to spare at the end of that player's magic phase!

It's not quite as extreme with better casters than level 1, but the point still stands. A high level caster has such a massive advantage on getting his spells through and dispelling the spells of others, the amount of low level casters required to offset that would be worth that high level caster's points several times over.


187 points is the limit on lords in 750 points.

So its just Empire, Dogs of War and Orcs and Goblins (old vampire counts would have been able to as well, stupid new necromancers :smallfurious:). Bretonians are 3 points under getting in a level 3 maiden. :smallfrown:In that case, at this point level, if I had to make a bet on who will dominate the magic phase, these armies would be my favourites. :smallwink:

EDIT: Ninja'd by Erloas! :smallredface:

[Penguinizer]

I figure, if 5 horsemen are weak alone. Why bother with them when I can get 2 Spawn with a mark in the same points area. I can't get banners, but such is life.

At 750 points, a group of two Tzeentchian warriors with shields and 2 Khornate spawn supported by a blaster-caster dipping into Lore of Fire seems good. Especially when the second player is likely going to take a Reaper Bolt Thrower, some crossbowmen, and corsairs. I'm liking the way this is starting to look.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I figure, if 5 horsemen are weak alone. Why bother with them when I can get 2 Spawn with a mark in the same points area. I can't get banners, but such is life.

They're not there to fight, they're there for other purposes and making sure your other units get into combat. The problem with Spawn is that you can't control them or rely on them and they're only real ability is T5 and unbreakable, they can tie things up but have dissapointing killing power. Spawn are points filler at the best of times and you don't points fill in 750 points.

Two khornate spawn cost more than a warshrine.


At 750 points, a group of two Tzeentchian warriors with shields and 2 Khornate spawn supported by a blaster-caster dipping into Lore of Fire seems good. Especially when the second player is likely going to take a Reaper Bolt Thrower, some crossbowmen, and corsairs. I'm liking the way this is starting to look.


Oh, that's what you mean.

Yeah, in that case, I agree, but I don't see what prevents Warriors of Chaos from doing that effectively. With their familiars, they have some pretty awesome arcane artifacts for this very purpose.

They don't look that cool to me.

Skull of Katam is good for the bearer, but if you're keeping multiple wizards that close they're all going to die at once.

The power familiar is okay.

The blood of tzeentch is the only one close to being "awesome".


If the level 4 is using a regular lore, he has five spells.

Thought it was only four? One per level like in the old rules.


In that case, at this point level, if I had to make a bet on who will dominate the magic phase, these armies would be my favourites. :smallwink:

Nah, I doubt anyone would actually use a level 3 in 750 points even if they could.


As for the army lists, at 750 points, about 1 level 2 wizard is all the more anyone could expect to field. Sure a few armies could field more, but they are also armies that would really hurt by not having more models on the field or a more combat based hero to protect them.

Not so sure about that. 2 level 2 night goblin shamans and a night goblin warboss still gives you 400 points to spend on horde infantry.

[Penguinizer]

The thing is, my friend is going heavy on the ranged side. The Spawn are more than capable of tying up units long enough for the warriors to get to them.

[Erloas]

Not so sure about that. 2 level 2 night goblin shamans and a night goblin warboss still gives you 400 points to spend on horde infantry.

Yes, and that is one very limited option in a single army. It means you have one of the lowest base LD armies in the game with a lord level character that gives you a 7 LD. So the chances of panic is fairly high, and even with steadfast you still have an almost 50% chance of running.

And the little Waagh spell list is decent, and your only choice, but its nothing thats liable to wipe out too much of an enemy army. I would have to get home to check, but I'm not even sure if you could get an orc shaman in the mix.

How many other armies can even field 2 level 2s, not even counting the possibility of a cheap lord level fighter, at that point level?


Thought it was only four? One per level like in the old rules.
All of the new lores have a 0 spell, which I believe is automatically known and you get your caster level worth of spells from the remaining 1-6 spells.


*as an aside, I should finally get the new book ordered tomorrow, so I should have it in a week or so.

[Jair Barik]

Think there will ever be a level 0 spell and a cantrip added to the army specific lores in an FAQ?

[Erloas]

No, because if they would have, it would have been done in the errata/FAQs that were put out at release. That would have been the time for them to do it and it wasn't done.

I think part of it might be because of the relatively low cast costs of the old edition compared to the new, one less spell for easier to cast lores.
Well, except for the DE who got a 0 spell and still has the lower cast costs.

I'm sure all new army books will have a 0 spell in their specific lores though. I'm not sure if they will have the lore special abilities like the core lores have though.

[Winterwind]

They don't look that cool to me.

Skull of Katam is good for the bearer, but if you're keeping multiple wizards that close they're all going to die at once.

The power familiar is okay.

The blood of tzeentch is the only one close to being "awesome".Power Familiar is better than okay, I'd say, the Spell Familiar isn't bad either, the Conjoined Familiar is awesome and does not take up the arcane artifact slot, same goes for the Third Eye of Tzeentch, the Hellfire Puppet is fantastic magic defense against any "spam some devastating super-spell"-strategy. The Black Tongue provides further great magic defence (also without taking up an artifact slot), and the Mark of Tzeentch itself is awesome for casters. Plenty of stuff to choose from to make the WoC magic phase a frightening one.


Thought it was only four? One per level like in the old rules....my bad. I honestly thought it was the way Erloas said it, with the basic spell always being known, also because this is how it was explained to me when the new edition was the first time presented to us at our shop. But now I've read up that section, just to make sure, and found you are indeed right, and the basic spell still has to be traded for to get. Sorry, my apologies. :smallredface:


Nah, I doubt anyone would actually use a level 3 in 750 points even if they could.I'm not sure about that. Every level counts. I think I'd likely try to squeeze one in, if I had the option to do so and good lores to choose from.


Not so sure about that. 2 level 2 night goblin shamans and a night goblin warboss still gives you 400 points to spend on horde infantry.Would that be worth it though? :smallconfused:

[Erloas]

Well if Winterwind's previous statement about the 0 level spell was wrong, then yes, just 1 spell per level.


As for level 3 casters in 750 points, Empire and O&G can both do it, but with only 2 points worth of upgrades, and actually a NG greatshaman can be level 4.

VC can get a lvl2 vampire and lv1 necromancer in 750 too, but they would be without upgrades (other then the lvl2 upgrade for the vampire) Several other armies can get a lvl2 and a lvl1, but (of the books I have) only O&G can get 2 level 2s.

I think it would be a bit more interesting to see what you could face at 1000 points, because it is a much more common sized game and opens up a lot more options with that extra 62 points.

Practically speaking I would be surprised to see more then a single level 4 or a single level 2 in most games at 1000. Anything more then that and you are making your army very one-dimensional and very prone to loosing on a single loss of control or someone set up to hunt down characters.

[Winterwind]

Well if Winterwind's previous statement about the 0 level spell was wrong, then yes, just 1 spell per level.I genuinely thought it was as you said, but after reading up that chapter more closely, it's like this:
1) roll for spells
2) replace any duplicate spells with other spells from the same lore
3) you may now replace any spell with the basic spell. The basic spell may be known by more than one caster.


Practically speaking I would be surprised to see more then a single level 4 or a single level 2 in most games at 1000. Anything more then that and you are making your army very one-dimensional and very prone to loosing on a single loss of control or someone set up to hunt down characters.Personally, I feel with the high costs of wizards and the benefits of having two wizards not being that much higher than having one wizard (as opposed to having one wizard and not having any at all, where the difference is tremendous), just about the only non-fluff-related reasons to bring more than one wizard even at much higher points than 1000 are either wanting to access multiple lores, ensuring you get some specific spell, or opening up more artifact slots. Most people at my shop seem to be of the opinion the ideal set-up is one level 4 and one level 1 caster, with the level 1 caster being primarily there to improve the chance to channel and to carry one additional artifact.

[BloodyAngel]

Ok.... so I finally got around to playing a game using the new edition rules... and holy crap was it nuts. We stole the game idea from the new rulebook about a host of armies fighting over fallen warpstone... so the game was an objective "hold as many of these things as you can" game, with 5 players and no teams! The players were playing Warrior of Chaos, Daemons, Ogres, Bretonnians, and Dark Elves. Everyone had a 1000 point army, and all but the daemon player had the simple goal of claiming as many of the warpstones as possible by turn 6. The daemon player was the only one with a different objective. He was there to drag as many souls into the chaos realm as possible. (Mostly because his force was only 4 units. A bit too fewl to have a chance at capping objectives at all... so we threw him a bone) There were three stones on the board... one dead center, the others randomly strewn about. The daemon player got one point for every 500 points of casualties he caused... the rest of us needed to hold the stones for points. Most points at the end of the game, wins!

Battle report: (spoilered for length)Things got bloody early. The Warrior's player lost the opening roll and started dead center on the field, with everyone else setting up on a table edge around him. On the up side, he started with a stone. Oddly, no one felt up to rushing him, and the game started off with the Dark elves (me) facing ogres on one flank, while the brets faced daemons on the other. Ogres are quite scary now! Unfortunately, their general deployed them poorly, trapping his hard hitters behind a massive gnoblar horde. For the first two rounds, the ogres were beat silly by a combination of War Hydra and repeater crossbowmen. The gnoblar horde was eaten like popcorn chicken, and the overrun into a unit of 6 bulls was bloody and devastating. Meanwhile the Druchii general and his unit of spearmen marched over to one of the stones and set up to defend it.

The Brets fared only slightly better. A unit of men at arms were wiped out in one turn by a unit of daemonettes half their size. (The hero leading the daemons helped) A unit of flamers causes some casualties on a unit of knights errant (led by a damsel), while the general (the amusingly names Sir Sean of Mulligan) and his knights of the realm wheeled around to face the daemons on their flank. The damsel took another smack when she miscast. The upside... she got off a VERY successful Shield of Thorns spell on the general's unit that would last for the rest of the game. The down side... she lobotomized herself into a Lv. 1 wizard, losing the spell and leaving her with only the signature spell of her lore for the rest of the game.

Warrior of chaos closed ranks around their rock and held, doing nothing more than throwing a few spells at the daemons to little effect.

Mid game was bloody. A second unit of ogre bulls swung into the hydra's flank, while the ogre bruiser and his unit of ironguts started towards the druchii holding the rock... and were shot mercilessly by two units of crossbowmen and some shades. The two ogre units nearly BOTH flee from the hydra, and don't manage to wound the thing at all. One unit dies instead, leaving only the ones flanking it alive. It looks bad for ogres.

The warriors player decides now is his time, and rushes into the fray like a man possessed. His chariot makes a truly MARATHON charge towards the shades (25"!) who roll a single inch too low, are caught fleeing, and get splattered under the chariot wheels. A unit of chaos knights make for the druchii general's unit as well... but don't charge just yet. On the other side, a second unit of chaos knights rush into the fray against the daemon general's unit (probably a REALLY bad move), which consists of 11 bloodletters and a herald of Khorne on a juggernaut. That one... doesn't end well for the chaos knights. The bret player shows her stuff though, as the knights of the realm charge into a block of flesh hounds and blow through them in one glorious turn... then on their next turn rush the flamer, taking some wounds from the fires as they go, but making it to the fire-spewing devils and wiping them out as well! This also leaves him right next to one of the stones. The daemonettes utterly SPANK the knights errant, who are run off the board, and the hungry daemons move on towards the poor, poor peasant longbowmen who've been supporting the bret line.

The final two turns come up. The damsel is run off, leaving only the warrior player with a mage on the field. Alas, he manages to cast nothing successfully, and instead opts to rush his unit of chaos warriors into the weakened bloodletters, hoping to wipe them out then claim the stone behind them from the brets. The chaos knights rush the druchii general's unit, leading to a bloody two-turn melee that the dark elves win just barely... killing the chaos knights (who utterly REFUSE to flee) to the last man. The ogre ironguts turn to wipe out the annoying crossbowmen shooting the crap out of them, and succeed on smacking the first unit to death... leaving them in the open to be shot again by the second. Only the bruiser survives. The bulls FINALLY manage to bring down the hydra, and the two of them that remain start for the center stone.

The chaos vs chaos smackdown is intense... with the daemons winning due to some HORRENDOUSLY lucky ward saves that prevent all 5 wounds the warriors would have done. The warriors, perhaps in shock of the daemon players seeming invulnerability, flee and are caught. The bloodletters are then flanked by a huge force of marauders with great weapons, who proceed to beat the lot of them to death over the last two or three turns... even bringing down the daemon general. Meanwhile the daemonettes, tattered and few in number are shot down to size... leaving only the herald of slaanesh remaining. She charges a unit of bowmen and rips them to shreds... running them off the board.

The chaos knights smash into the dark elves, fighting brutally over the rock that the druchii are guarding. Over a bloody, two turn melee... the dark elves claim victory... being forced to kill the chaos knights to the last man. (They refused to flee!) The warrior player was hoping to swing a chariot into the druchii's flank, only to have his chariot flanked before it could do so and run off by a cold one chariot. The cold one chariot overruns, and begins moving for the center stone, plowing over the two ogre bulls left on the way. The ogre bruiser charges the last unit of crossbows, and is badly wounded in the stand + shoot, so much so that he is slain in the resulting melee, though he does manage to wipe out 60% of the crossbowmen beforehand. The ogres are pretty much out of the game.

At the start of turn 6, the dark elves have two stones, and the brets stone is contested by a unit of gnoblar scouts that have been running around the whole game doing next to nothing. In a truly beautiful moment that will forever be sung of in the king's court... Sir Sean Mulligan moves his knights to charge up the center of the field to where the center stone lies, guarded by an undamaged cold one chariot. The remaining peasant bowmen move in and open fire on the gnoblar scouts from point blank, driving them into panicked flight and leaving the stone uncontested in the hands of the peasants. The knights roll AMAZING for their final charge (no one thought they would make it) and manage to reach the cold one chariot and smack the crap out of it... It flees with one remaining wound, and the knights hold leaving the center stone also in bretonnian hands.

Final tally.

Brets have a unit of bowmen left, as well as their general and three of his knights. They hold 2 stones.

Dark Elves have their general and roughly 14 spearmen left, a very lucky unit of 4 crossbowmen... and one stone.

Ogres are wiped out entirely.

Warriors of chaos have 12 marauders left, that were too slow to make it to a stone before the game ended.

The Daemon player has only the Herald of Slaanesh left, but has gotten 1300 or so in kills, giving him effectively two objective points.

End result... the brets and daemons tie for the win!

It was an amazing game, and a lot of fun. I have decided that I LOVE the new rules up and down. The new magic rules are great (if dangerous) and I love the addition of things like support attacks and Steadfast. Great, great game. :smallbiggrin:

[crazedloon]

(Mostly because his force was only 4 units. A bit too fewl to have a chance at capping objectives at all... so we threw him a bone)

This makes little sense for a reasoning.....

My 2500 point list has 6 units (2 of which are only 5 man units) unless you count characters as separate units. Add on to that the fact deamons is still one of the stronger lists you really don't need to throw him too much of a bone.

[Eldan]

Question: how did you handle magic with so many players? Especially, dispel dice? Because if all five enemies can dispel, that gets brutal quite fast, but I don't see how else to do it.

[Erloas]

What does the allies part of the rulebook say about magic? (I did get the new rulebook ordered, but I've got probably a week before it actually gets to me)

I think its pretty clear how to run offensive based magic, each defender would get the same number of dispel dice (based on the roll), but you could only ever dispel spells focused at your own units. Which means you would want to focus all of your magic against a single opponent in any given turn. But defensive/utility spells that don't target any specific enemy... I'm not to sure on them.


Unless you had one roll at the beginning of each turn, all armies get the same number of power and dispel dice, and you have to make your dispel dice last through all the other players turns. It would work fairly well, so long as each player was playing only for themselves and people weren't teaming up at all.

[BloodyAngel]

The reason we "boned" the daemon player was... he had four units. There were three rocks. The rocks were nowhere near each other... and each player effectively had 4000 points of opposition out there. Maybe we didn't need to, but we felt that asking him to try and split his already small-in-number army even more seems harsh. (also the player was new and doesn't know the game well) Maybe we didn't have to... but it was just a friendly game, so we didn't care.

As for magic, we went by a gentleman's agreement for it. Every player had his own dispel pool, and could only dispel spells that affected him. In the case of the one buff spell that was thrown, we let the player who was about to fight said buffed unit try for the dispel. There was very little magic in the game anyways.

[Winterwind]

Glad you had fun, BloodyAngel. Congratulations! :smallbiggrin:


Daemons sure are nasty though. Had my first game against them yesterday, and, oof... not a nice foe to fight.

My army list was this:
Spellweaver - 305 points
Level 4 (Lore of Life), Wand of the Wych Elm
Army General, with Glade Guard I

Noble - 143 points
Elven Steed, Shield, Light Armour, Spear, Helm of the Hunt, Hail of Doom
With Glade Riders

Spellsinger - 150 points
Level 2 (Lore of Athel Loren), Dispel Scroll
With Glade Guard II

Glade Guard (x10) - 163 points
Musician, Standard Bearer, Aech - Banner of Springtide

Glade Guard (x10) - 126 points
Musician

Glade Riders (x5) - 129 points
Musician

Dryads (x10) - 132 points
Champion

Treekin (x3) - 195 points

Wardancers (x9) - 169 points
Musician

Waywatchers (x8) - 201 points
Champion

Treeman - 285 points

His army list was, as far as I remember:
Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut, not sure about the gifts
Army General, with the Bloodletters

Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut, some gifts that raised his armour save to 1+ (0+ even; my opponent was unaware saves were capped at 0+ now)

Herald of Tzeentch, Battle Standard Bearer, level 2 caster with entire Lore of Life, with Flamers of Tzeentch

~20 Bloodletters, full command

~16 Daemonettes, champion, musician

~10 Furies

~12 Pink Horrors

~12 Pink Horrors

~6 Flesh Hounds

3 Bloodcrushers, full command

~8 Flamers of Tzeentch

We rolled the 4 for mission, and I cringed - for those without the rulebook at hand, the 4 is that one mission where each army is assigned a breaking point determined by the points (for 2000, it's 2), and has a "fortitude" determined by the number of its standards: Each standard, BSB included, is worth 1 point of fortitude, and the general is worth 2. If the fortitude of an army drops to the breaking point, that army loses. My army's fortitude being 3, all he had to do was kill either my general or my single standard bearer to win (of course, I kept the two together - no need to give the opponent two targets, either of which is enough for him to win the game); my opponent's fortitude was a somewhat more comfortable 5.

When I explained the scenario to him, my opponent seemed oddly disinterested. But hey, I figured he knew what he was doing.

Keeping the crucial Glade Guard unit with the general far in the back, I basically tried to shoot down the major threats coming down the flanks, while deploying my strongest melee units in the centre near the general for protection and to intercept any incoming threats, as well as wait for an opportunity to take down weakened units with standards. The Daemonettes were shot to almost nothing, the Furies and Flesh Hounds suffered severe losses.

The situation took a turn to the worse when I completely missed an opening for my opponent to send his Bloodcrushers into my Dryads flank (who had actually been themselves set up to flank whatever decided to go up against the Treeman acting as an anvil of sorts). This led to an entire chain of units set up to countercharge whatever attacked the units next to them being flanked themselves and unable to act or get reinforcements, causing half of my frontline to basically disappear; however, my Treeman managed to crush his general. Then, in spite of being Stubborn, he fled and was vanquished, but the damage to the Daemon army had been done.

It was quite clear by that point my chances to win the game by brute force were minimal; my Waywatchers at my right flank, due to pretty bad luck with both shooting and close combat, were eradicated by the tiny remainders of the Flesh Hounds; my Treekin were broken by the Flamers in spite of not losing the combat by all that much and eradicated; the Dryads were long gone due to the Bloodcrusher attack (though they had managed to take down almost all remaining Furies in the process); and the enemy forces were getting ever closer to my last lines. But, the loss of the general had dropped his Fortitude to 3 as well.

My opponent seemed rather unimpressed by that, even though I pointed this out to him (including the fact I only needed to kill one more banner of his now to win, which he even acknowledged).

The Bloodcrusher standard was no realistic target - the only things in their vicinity were the Glade Riders and the secondary Glade Guard unit, neither even remotely powerful enough to take them on.

I would have tried taking down the BSB with Dwellers Below, but kept rolling too low for power dice to realistically cast that (I had atrociously bad luck with my magic throughout that game, getting a loss of control at some rather unimportant spell - fortunately without too severe consequences - and perpetually getting rolls like 5,1 for Winds of Magic, leading to him dispelling most of the most important stuff).

So the best chance seemed the Bloodletters - I sent the Wardancers straight into them, and, choosing the +1A dance, caused the entire second rank to disappear. Instability further took a massive toll on the servants of Khorne, leaving only a few of them standing against Loec's followers. The next turn saw the Bloodletters completely obliterated, and their banner fall. Victory for me, in spite of the horrible forces still advancing against me (and the admittedly foolish mistake that had led to far too many of my units being flanked and slaughtered).

Oddly, my opponent still seemed to expect the game to go on...

So I explained to him the scenario once again, to which he responded with great amazement and derision towards the 8th edition rules ("So victory points don't even matter? Pshh, that's children's Warhammer!" and "I don't care about scenarios anyway, they always sucked, I only play Pitched Battles!" were, roughly, two of his responses). I offered to continue to play the next few turns (mostly since I didn't want to win solely because my opponent, apparently, had not understood the objectives after all), which he immediately accepted ("You may have won the scenario, I win the battle, I'm satisfied!" was his not exactly humble reaction - keep in mind he had not obliterated me yet at this point, even though the situation decidedly seemed to favour him).

Sure enough, two turns later he did obliterate me, also due to a series of really poor rolls on my part - which I mention mostly because throughout the entire game my opponent kept whining incessantly about how bad his rolls were and how good mine were (admittedly, his rolls were initially pretty below average, though he still kept complaining long after he'd had a series of good rolls, too - but then, he also boasted that his Flamers were able to destroy my entire army all on their own, if only he got average rolls).

Later, we had a discussion about the merits and lack thereof of 8th edition (as he also kept whining, and I'm using "whining" in preference to "complaining" quite deliberately there, how much better 7th edition was), and that led to me completely losing all respect for him - not because he disagreed with me, but because of how closed-minded and derisive towards all my arguments and statements he was, rarely even allowing me to finish a sentence before replying with something sarcastic that totally straw-manned my actual argument. I think I've finally found the first player at our local shop I am going to try hard to avoid in the future. :smallyuk:

However, the actual discussion was quite interesting, and I'd gladly continue it... with people who are nicer and more sensible than that guy. Namely you! :smallsmile:

So here are the points we disagreed about, and I'd be quite interested in hearing what you think about them.
Being allowed to measure at all times. He thought this turned the game more into kiddyhammer, as he expressed it, simplifying it and reducing the strategic depth; I argued it actually increased the strategic depth by shifting the focus away from "who can estimate distances better", which to me has nothing at all to do with strategic talent, and more towards more precise and thought-through maneuvering.
Random charges. He thought it made the game worse by destroying strategy by leading to situations where all careful maneuvering doesn't pay off due to a charge randomly failing; I argued it led to more excitement, prevented stalemates that might be caused by two people standing in front of each other unwilling to advance because moving forward would lead them into the enemy charge range, and added options where none had been before: Now one could choose between playing it safe and not engaging in a charge at a risky distance, or taking a risk and hoping to roll high to get the charge through, where previously one had not had that choice. And more options mean more strategy in my eyes.
Related to the previous point: Previously fairly immobile forces becoming more mobile due to random charges. He was practically offended by Dwarfs now actually having a notable charge range, saying it removed complexity from the game by making everything the same. I said that Dwarfs were still as slow in movement otherwise as they had always been (to which my opponent responded "Ehh, regular movement interests noone, charges are the thing where stuff really happens!"), so they were still distinct from other armies, and the greater charge distances actually enabled a more diversified playing style to Dwarfs, rather than forcing them to play a gunline.
Cavalry. He basically said cavalry was utterly useless now, including such previously renowned units as Dark Elf Cold One Knights (which my opponent said he wouldn't play anymore at tournaments, where he liked to go to. So he played Daemons and Dark Elves in the previous edition, and was a tournament player. Hmm, figures.). His argument was, basically, that the number of infantry models one can get for one cavalry model is always better in combat than that cavalry model, and that cavalry relied solely on eliminating so many enemy models nothing could strike back, so now that models step-up, the cavalry would be demolished by the large number of attacks coming back. Also, he was of the opinion cavalry was not sufficiently more mobile than infantry now, since infantry could also charge up to 15" or so now. I argued that cavalry also can get more attacks through now than before, and was well armoured and offensively powerful enough to still vastly outkill the infantry and win combat decisively - and while they might not be able to get rid of steadfast, that's where the strategic depth he denied the 8th edition possessed came in, by forcing players to have infantry units cooperate with cavalry and having use infantry to get rid of steadfast and then sending in cavalry to actually win the combat, rather than having cavalry do everything on their own. And they were still vastly more mobile than infantry - in charges, but especially in regular movement (see the previous point to imagine his reaction to that) - thus allowing them to get into positions to flank or to hunt units way back behind the enemy front line - like warmachines or ranged units - far more effectively.


(Oh, and before people ask: But Winter, why could you write down this battle report just like that, but still haven't posted that battle report you promised two weeks ago - I'm trying to go for a bit different style with that other one, and I haven't had the inspiration or time for that lately :smallwink:)

[Erloas]

It takes people a while to start actually playing to scenarios. Even quite a while after they were added to 40k I still see a lot of players trying to kill the opponent rather then trying to win based on the scenario type.

It sounds like your opponent was too used to not having to think about what he was doing to win with Daemons and just didn't accept that a straight forward slaughter wasn't the way to win.
Its also not surprising that he has problems with the new movement system, between Daemons and DE he has two of the fastest armies in the game (Daemons have a number of M4 units but they aren't ones he fields or they are ranged and don't want to move anyway, demonettes are M6 too) so he is loosing a lot of advantages there.

It sounds like he was a player that learned how to win with easy armies than learning how to play with more challenging armies. (Obviously he hasn't been a DE player for too long)

He'll probably have to be beat down many times before he realizes he has to change if he still wants to win. At which point he might, or he might just sell everything and leave. If you do play him again, end when the scenario says its over, make him learn that the scenario victory conditions are the only victory conditions.

As for the specific points, thats all stuff we went over when the first rumors of 8th edition were starting.

[Eldan]

I had a game of "take the watchtower" against an ogre player last weekend, which was actually fun. I got to start in the tower and put my most defensive unit on top of it. In the end, we actually ended up agreeing on a draw, given that no one had anything in the tower, and both had units touching it. If it had gone for another turn or so, he would probably have won, since he had still a giant and a few ogres left, against two units of rats.

He had a Forgeworld giant. That thing was a good inch or two taller than the tower. You can't imagine how huge that is. He also had the regular giant, it was nearly twice as tall.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I'm actually quite interested in starting Slaaneshi daemons, but I also want to finish my tomb kings that I half started years ago and buy even more Empire to take advantage of the pro-larger unit rules, so I'm unlikely to.

When I played in tournaments the scenarios were pretty important, so I have no idea how he could get very far in them with that attitude. One guy even tried to say proudly that he would have won if we were using standard victory points, but I pointed out that I wouldn't have played like I did if that was the case so it was irrelevant.

In a 1000 points, Slaaneshi daemons can either fit in one level 1 wizard or no wizards at all. So I was thinking of having:

1000 Points

Heroes
Herald of Slaanesh
steed of slaanesh
115 points

Herald of Slaanesh
battle standard
115 points

I have 20 points left of my allowance and nothing else is under 25 points except for some crappy sword

Core
18 daemonettes of slaanesh
siren standard, full command
271 points

18 daemonettes of slaanesh
full command
246 points

9 Seekers of Slaanesh
full command
246 points

wow, daemons have real trouble fitting in units. At least that means they're cheap £ wise.

1500 Points
Heroes
Herald of Slaanesh
steed of slaanesh, enrapturing gaze, allure of slaanesh
165 points

Herald of Slaanesh
battle standard, level 1 wizard siren song
190 points

Core
21 daemonettes of slaanesh
banner of ecstasy, full command
307 points

21 daemonettes of slaanesh
full command
282 points

Special
13 Seekers of Slaanesh
full command, siren standard
364 points

Rare
3 Fiends of Slaanesh
165 points

Okay, at that points level I can actually have magic numbers and a crappy magic user.

At 2000 points I basically just add:
Daemon Prince
level 2 wizard, temptator, winged horror
490 points



He had a Forgeworld giant. That thing was a good inch or two taller than the tower. You can't imagine how huge that is. He also had the regular giant, it was nearly twice as tall.

I fought that thing once. Karl Franz killed it on turn 1 or two I think. Then he got hit by twin snotling pump wagons and almost died. Grimgor Ironhide killed him pretty quickly, with that always strike first ability he no longer has :smallbiggrin: Then again, Karl Franz on Griffon doesn't fit into 2000 points anymore, so I have to either use a regular general or Karl Franz on horse giving his magic resistance 3 to a unit of 10 strong knights :smallbiggrin:

[Erloas]

Well they have officially posted the new Island of Blood starter box for pre-order. (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod850019a&utm_term=warhammer&utm_medium=email&utm_content=image-link-body&utm_source=e1400004-en_US&utm_campaign=TheIslandofBloodAO-en_US)

It is set to release September 4th, for $99 (at least here in the US), so an increase from Battle for Skull Pass.
It includes:

High Elves:
a High Elf Prince on Griffon,
a High Elf Mage,
10 High Elf Lothern Sea Guard,
10 High Elf Sword Masters of Hoeth
5 Ellyrian Reavers)

Skaven:
a Skaven Warlord,
a Skaven Warlock Engineer,
40 Skaven Clanrats,
a Skaven Master Moulder,
two Skaven Rat Ogres,
a Skaven Warpfire Thrower,
and a Skaven Poisoned Wind Mortar

All 74 models are exclusive to this box. Meaning they are all the 1-2 piece simple plastics like what is seen in the other starter boxes.

In addition to the models listed above, there's everything else you'll need to begin playing games of Warhammer, including:
a pocket sized, 200-page full-colour Warhammer rulebook,
a 32-page, full-colour 'Getting Started' booklet,
10 dice,
two Artillery Dice,
three templates,
and two plastic range rulers.

The price is getting up there for a starter box, but it looks like its still a pretty good deal. I'll have to wait until I get home to see about what point value the Skaven army would be (don't have the HE book)

[Closet_Skeleton]

Basically you get a Skaven battle force -1 the plague monks and a warlord, engineer warpfire thrower and mortar. Then you get some high elves and a rulebook. That's fine by me because I already have 30 plague monks but only 40 clan rats and 2 rat ogres.

From the look of the sprues you can choose what weapons to give your clan rats if you have spares left over from the regular regiment box.

[Winterwind]

It takes people a while to start actually playing to scenarios. Even quite a while after they were added to 40k I still see a lot of players trying to kill the opponent rather then trying to win based on the scenario type.

It sounds like your opponent was too used to not having to think about what he was doing to win with Daemons and just didn't accept that a straight forward slaughter wasn't the way to win.
Its also not surprising that he has problems with the new movement system, between Daemons and DE he has two of the fastest armies in the game (Daemons have a number of M4 units but they aren't ones he fields or they are ranged and don't want to move anyway, demonettes are M6 too) so he is loosing a lot of advantages there.

It sounds like he was a player that learned how to win with easy armies than learning how to play with more challenging armies. (Obviously he hasn't been a DE player for too long)That seems entirely possible (and probable).


He'll probably have to be beat down many times before he realizes he has to change if he still wants to win. At which point he might, or he might just sell everything and leave. If you do play him again, end when the scenario says its over, make him learn that the scenario victory conditions are the only victory conditions.Yeah, that would probably be better. I'm just trying to be the nice guy, but I guess I should set some limits to that. :smallredface:


As for the specific points, thats all stuff we went over when the first rumors of 8th edition were starting.Oh, we did? Sorry, then; I must have forgotten. :smallredface:


When I played in tournaments the scenarios were pretty important, so I have no idea how he could get very far in them with that attitude. One guy even tried to say proudly that he would have won if we were using standard victory points, but I pointed out that I wouldn't have played like I did if that was the case so it was irrelevant.Yeah, every time I got that mission with the banners so far, I deployed in the exact opposite way I'd usually deploy. Most of the time, I have the majority of my toughest forces on the flanks, to prevent fast elite units from flanking me and to take the enemy into a pincer movement; in this mission, I had almost all my force concentrated in the centre, protecting my general and facing the unit containing the most of his Fortitude, with just enough units on the flanks to stop him for long enough to prevent him from reaching my general too quickly.

That contributed a lot to the game going as went - my centre managed to kill his general and the unit protecting him with its banner, causing me to win the scenario, meanwhile my flanks were wiped out (but held just long enough for the centre to do its job and my general to be safe), and after that my force predictably faltered, as I had not done anything to actually counter his crack units with my own, instead using everything to win the scenario. Usually, I'd have focused my forces a lot more on going up against what was actually the most dangerous.
(Though that probably still wouldn't have worked out due to me not knowing which units of his I should send which of my units against, due to never having faced Daemons before. Now I do. Waywatchers against the Flamers, Glade Guard and Hail of Doom against the Bloodcrushers, and my close combat units can deal with the rest. Harsh enemy, but seems beatable.).

[Ninja Chocobo]

However, the actual discussion was quite interesting, and I'd gladly continue it... with people who are nicer and more sensible than that guy. Namely you! :smallsmile:

He seems to have a similar set of issues with the new edition to me, a lot of which can be boiled down to Luck vs Skill.


Being allowed to measure at all times. I argued it actually increased the strategic depth by shifting the focus away from "who can estimate distances better", which to me has nothing at all to do with strategic talent, and more towards more precise and thought-through maneuvering.

Nevertheless, estimating distances is a Skill, one which is-- was very important in the game. Just like the rest of the game, one would be able to get better at it with practice.
Also, from a verisimilitude point of view, how is everyone supposed to know at all times exactly how far away everything else is?


Random charges.

Point stands though that rather than knowing anything about what you're going to be doing, you're relying on Luck. Think about that last clause for a second.


Related to the previous point: Previously fairly immobile forces becoming more mobile due to random charges.

With the changes to march-blocking, everything is immensely more mobile than it once did; I have the feeling that shooting is going to become noticeably less viable.


Cavalry. His argument was, basically, that the number of infantry models one can get for one cavalry model is always better in combat than that cavalry model, and that cavalry relied solely on eliminating so many enemy models nothing could strike back, so now that models step-up, the cavalry would be demolished by the large number of attacks coming back.

This is the issue I have with the entirety of Wood Elf melee infantry. Cavalry at least has the benefit of +1 to the save.
fake edit: Also with Wood Elf characters.


I argued that cavalry also can get more attacks through now than before,

Not as many as infantry though.


and was well armoured and offensively powerful enough to still vastly outkill the infantry and win combat decisively

That's hardly all cavalry. Heavy cavalry, maybe medium. Lights are right out.


by forcing players to have infantry units cooperate with cavalry and having use infantry to get rid of steadfast and then sending in cavalry to actually win the combat, rather than having cavalry do everything on their own.

So two of your units can kill one of theirs. Really. I never would have guessed.


And they were still vastly more mobile than infantry - in charges, but especially in regular movement (see the previous point to imagine his reaction to that) - thus allowing them to get into positions to flank or to hunt units way back behind the enemy front line - like warmachines or ranged units - far more effectively.

Given that you need two full ranks at the end of combat in order to deny rank bonuses, I don't even think flanking with them is viable. I mean you're going to need like fifteen of them in a unit.

[Closet_Skeleton]

That's hardly all cavalry. Heavy cavalry, maybe medium. Lights are right out.

Medium cavalry have always been problematic. Who ever they actually are (Skeleton Heavy Horsemen? Wild Riders? Boar Boyz?).

With their ability to fire in two ranks and march and shoot I'm not entirely sure we won't start seeing 10 strong units of shooty light cavalry.

[Ninja Chocobo]

With their ability to fire in two ranks and march and shoot I'm not entirely sure we won't start seeing 10 strong units of shooty light cavalry.

If you're shooting at someone though does it really matter where the shots are coming from?

e:

Grimgor Ironhide killed him pretty quickly, with that always strike first ability he no longer has :smallbiggrin:

Minor point of order; why didn't he have ASF any more?

[Winterwind]

He seems to have a similar set of issues with the new edition to me, a lot of which can be boiled down to Luck vs Skill.Splendid! Looking forward to discussing with someone more reasonable, less sarcastic and closed-minded than that guy, then. :smallsmile:


Nevertheless, estimating distances is a Skill, one which is-- was very important in the game. Just like the rest of the game, one would be able to get better at it with practice.Absolutely, no debate there. However - and I guess that may be a matter of personal taste - it is not a skill I want to test in a strategy game. I'd rather have strategic talent matter more, rather than having games decided by a skill that doesn't have anything to do with strategy in my eyes.


Also, from a verisimilitude point of view, how is everyone supposed to know at all times exactly how far away everything else is?Depends. When it comes to shooting or casting spells for instance, I'd imagine the archer or wizard to have a pretty good idea whether the shot seems feasible or whether this group of people can be affected by the winds of magic shaped by the wizard or not.

Altogether, I'll agree though. However, the gain in making a skill I do not want to matter not matter and thus shifting the focus of the game to what I want to matter - strategy - outweighs the loss of verisimilitude in my eyes.


Point stands though that rather than knowing anything about what you're going to be doing, you're relying on Luck. Think about that last clause for a second.If you consider this relying on Luck though, the same could be said about every single combat or shooting in the game - every time you do that, you are rolling dice after all. But in spite of that, when you have a unit of yours fight one of the opponent, you are not relying on pure Luck - you are relying on Chance, the difference being that Chance can be influenced. You influence the Chance in combat by making sure that the unit you send into that combat is stronger than that on the other side - it has more men, better combat resolution, models with better profiles, or is otherwise tailored to shift probabilities in its favour. It still can fail - there are dice involved, and even though you may be rolling more dice than the opponent and require lower rolls, the dice can still fail you. And the game would likely be quite boring otherwise. But it's still not pure Luck - you have been working hard to ensure the probabilities favour you as much as possible by having brought the right unit into the right place, sent it against the right opponent, whom you had weakened before by shooting to a hopefully sufficient degree.

On the other hand, in a desperate situation, you may also choose to send a weaker unit against the enemy, hoping to hold the enemy back for just this one crucial turn. It's based on Chance, too, but it's still strategy - it's recognizing that taking this Chance, even though probabilities may not favour you, is still your best hope to turn the tide of the battle around.

What I'm saying is, you rely on Chance all the time throughout the game. Sometimes you may choose to play it absolutely safe and engage only when the probabilities favour you massively, sometimes you may determine the possible gain is big enough to do something risky, that may go either way, sometimes you may even do something desperate - but you have all these options, and weighing which one is the most appropriate, deciding how much risk you can take ("will these two units suffice to hold the flank, or do they need reinforcements?") is all part of strategy. And thus, Skill.

And I see random charges in exactly the same light. You can play it safe and only engage when the probabilities really favour you, you can sometimes decide taking this Stand&Shoot and still having a decent chance of failing the charge is worth the possible gain, and sometimes luck may fail you and a seemingly-safe charge fails. But the former two are options for you; they are influenced by you trying to make the probabilities favour you as much as possible (which is pretty much the only thing you are doing throughout the entire game, no matter what you do, in every single phase); and a charge failing unexpectedly adds to the excitement and, I'd argue, verisimilitude - here you have your "Not knowing how far away the enemy is exactly" reborn in another form. Sometimes plans go wrong, and one has to start to improvise; I'd argue that adds to the fun as well. Not to mention that improvising when plans fail is Skill, too.


With the changes to march-blocking, everything is immensely more mobile than it once did; I have the feeling that shooting is going to become noticeably less viable.Quite possible; that remains to be seen. Still doesn't mean armies for whom close combat was previously no option as they were too slow to dictate any combat themselves now having that option is a bad thing though.


This is the issue I have with the entirety of Wood Elf melee infantry. Cavalry at least has the benefit of +1 to the save.
fake edit: Also with Wood Elf characters.Granted, but that's a problem of an outdated army book. I play Wood Elves too, my army was hit just as badly. But "how much do the rules benefit me" is, I think, not a sensible criterion to evaluate rules meant for the entire game and for all armies, especially since army books change and new ones keep being released all the time. :smallwink:


Not as many as infantry though.Well, when you consider the pure attack number per model in base to base contact, the increase is just the same - one additional rank fighting. That's a 100% increase for most A1 units (which includes most infantry and cavalry), a 50% increase for spearmen or A2 units.

Of course, the number of attacks infantry gets altogether is increased practically infinitely, as they get attacks back in the first place now. But on the other hand, having more attacks means for the cavalry having more attacks on the charge, too, where they are getting a massive bonus to their killing power - so more attacks coming back and possibly killing a few of them should be outweighed by the massive number of models the infantry will lose, quite possibly breaking them or at least crippling the unit to a point where it won't matter much anymore.


That's hardly all cavalry. Heavy cavalry, maybe medium. Lights are right out.Yes, but lights are faster with that 12" bonus movement they get, allowing them to get to where they need to get even more quickly, and going to hunt targets even they can win against. You cannot expect them to win against some things heavy cavalry would win against easily, but then, there's got to be some difference between light and heavy cavalry, right? :smallwink:


So two of your units can kill one of theirs. Really. I never would have guessed.They can, however, kill a unit that equals both of them together in points.

Look, it's like this: Infantry, especially cheap infantry, is good at negating steadfast and generating some static combat resolution; they are not necessarily good at killing much though.
Cavalry excels at slaughtering massive numbers of models upon the charge; they will usually not have enough ranks to negate steadfast though.
So neither unit can reliably break the enemy on its own. However, if you use both of them at once, one will negate steadfast, the other will win the combat for you.

Where previously the cavalry might have broken the enemy alone, it has to cooperate with other units now. It's still just as good at winning the combat for you as ever; but it needs help to make the enemy run. That is the purpose of cavalry now - ensuring enemy units break after you have already gotten rid of their steadfast with another unit. And the speed of cavalry helps them be where they need to be for that purpose.

That is, in my eyes, the paradigm of the new edition. Cooperation between units to achieve their goal, rather than blindly sending in single super units and expecting them to do everything on their own.

I'd argue this adds to the strategic complexity and is an instance where more Skill is needed now than before.


Given that you need two full ranks at the end of combat in order to deny rank bonuses, I don't even think flanking with them is viable. I mean you're going to need like fifteen of them in a unit.I was actually mostly thinking of the +1 bonus for being in the flank, not rank bonus denial or any such thing. Though for armies with less overcosted cavalry than Wood Elves, actually getting these 15-models-strong cavalry is absolutely an option, especially since Fast Cavalry generates rank bonus now too.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Depends. When it comes to shooting or casting spells for instance, I'd imagine the archer or wizard to have a pretty good idea whether the shot seems feasible or whether this group of people can be affected by the winds of magic shaped by the wizard or not.

Exactly! A "pretty good idea" can be approximated by a guess from an experienced war-gamer. I mean it's all "I reckon those guys are, oh, 800 metres away." But then their arrows fall short and it's all "Oh. I guess they were further. Er, my bad."
I will agree to disagree on this point. I'm not in favour of it, but others are, so.


If you consider this relying on Luck though, the same could be said about every single combat or shooting in the game - every time you do that, you are rolling dice after all. But in spite of that, when you have a unit of yours fight one of the opponent, you are not relying on pure Luck - you are relying on Chance, the difference being that Chance can be influenced.

I think my issue is exactly how random it is. I mean maybe if the distances were like 4d3 or something, but as it stands there's just too much variation for me. Maybe it's another verisimilitude thing; and come to think of it it probably wouldn't have come up if I didn't know about how it worked previously.


Quite possible; that remains to be seen. Still doesn't mean armies for whom close combat was previously no option as they were too slow to dictate any combat themselves now having that option is a bad thing though.

Reading what I wrote again, I think I was arguing that Dwarves might even be less mobile than before, since their Marching abilities are hardly unique any more, and by comparison they could be moving even slower than armies with good leadership.


Granted, but that's a problem of an outdated army book. I play Wood Elves too, my army was hit just as badly. But "how much do the rules benefit me" is, I think, not a sensible criterion to evaluate rules meant for the entire game and for all armies, especially since army books change and new ones keep being released all the time. :smallwink:

I am biased, and I freely admit that a non-trivial amount of my distaste for this edition is how badly Wood Elves got hit. I don't think I can help it; it's probably simply human nature to look at change in terms of how it affects you. You all probably ought to take my opinions with some salt.


Well, when you consider the pure attack number per model in base to base contact, the increase is just the same - one additional rank fighting. That's a 100% increase for most A1 units (which includes most infantry and cavalry), a 50% increase for spearmen or A2 units.

Yes, but I don't think cavalry can benefit from spears giving Fight in Extra Ranks, or from the Horde rules, or similar.


Yes, but lights are faster with that 12" bonus movement they get, allowing them to get to where they need to get even more quickly, and going to hunt targets even they can win against. You cannot expect them to win against some things heavy cavalry would win against easily, but then, there's got to be some difference between light and heavy cavalry, right? :smallwink:

Right, but what kind of targets would a unit of 5-10 T3 5+ save models be able to hit?
War machines? Maybe. Not Dwarf ones, though.


Look, it's like this: Infantry, especially cheap infantry, is good at negating steadfast and generating some static combat resolution; they are not necessarily good at killing much though.

I can't really relate to this. Again, biased.


Cavalry excels at slaughtering massive numbers of models upon the charge;

Do they, though? I mean if they're not armed with Lances I'm not seeing how they're more effective on the charge than infantry of similar stats.


That is, in my eyes, the paradigm of the new edition. Cooperation between units to achieve their goal, rather than blindly sending in single super units and expecting them to do everything on their own.

Now I'm not sure this wasn't around in the previous edition. I've heard much more about combined charges and such than I heard about single units devastating the enemy. Maybe that's just me though.


I'd argue this adds to the strategic complexity and is an instance where more Skill is needed now than before.

Possibly. But to me the majority of the strategy in the last edition was forcing your opponent to make bad moves and capitalising on it. I just don't see what this edition's strategy is; it seems to me more like smashing blocks of infantry against each other and duking it out for four turns.

Hm.
Would now be a good time to mention I've never actually played a game of WHFB and am basically talking out of my arse?

[Erloas]

Not being able to pre-measure I think would have been a reasonable thing to keep in. It is a reasonable skill to expect... however there are a lot of tricks players pick up to mitigate the guessing anyway, such as using range from the magic phase to pretty much know what everything will be in the shooting phase, or to play with the same terrain most of the time to know how big certain pieces are and going from there. It gives a sort of "home field" advantage that will put some people at a disadvantage for no good reason.

As for charging, I absolutely agree with that change. It would be different if everyone moved the same distance, then being able to guess the right distance would be a lot bigger of a skill. But when you go from dwarfs, to humans, to elfs, to ogres, to calvary you have huge differences in charge range, and then it makes "guessing" charge ranges very trivial. Its one thing to guess if something is within 24" or 36", its another thing to guess that you are within your 10" charge range and outside your opponents 8" charge range. Its not a surprise when most dwarf and empire players (that aren't going very heavy into cav) go for a gunline when they know that against 2/3s of the armies they are going to face even a mediocre opponent can be assured to get the charge off on them with little effort.


So despite the fact that I won't have the new rulebook until (*checks tracking*) next Tuesday my brother and I played a game with as much of the rules as I could remember. It was his first game with his skaven and probably only his 5-6 game every.
It was 1500 points, normal deployment and victory since we didn't have any of the other options.
He had
Engineer upgraded to lvl1
warlord (not sure what he had)
2 units of 20 clanrates with ratling guns
1 unit of 30 slaves
1 unit of 20 stormvermin
2 units of 20 plague monks
1 unit of 3 jezzails
1 unit of 3 packmasters and 18ish giant rats
2 units of 2 rat ogres and 1 packmaster

I used my DE (since most of my other armies really struggle to hit 1500 points)

Sorceress lvl2 with tome of furion (extra spell)
master on chariot with just mundane equipment
25 spear warriors
10 corsairs with handbows
6 harpies
10 dark riders
10 RXB warriors
12 witch elves
10 cold one knights

I set up first with the warriors, chariot, corsiars, and witch elves in the center right, rxb warriors, harpies center, knights center left, and dark riders far left.
He set the giant rats, 1 unit of ogres, and 2 plague monk units right across from the warriors, jezzails on the right side (from me, his left), with the slaves, other ogres, and both clanrats on the left side.

Since my DR were a flanking force and they couldn't get to the flank I used their free move to move them beside the knights. The master failed his first stupidity roll, everyone moved up some but not a lot. With the knights and DR forming a pocket between some forests on the left side. My sorceress kicked butt through the whole game. She started out dropping black horror on the giant rats killing half of them.
His turn he moved up a bit, missed with his jezzails, didn't get off his warplightning, and moved the ratling guns so nothing else happened.

My turn I moved my corsairs up and opened fire on the giant rats knocking them down to 4-5 which fled through a unit of monks causing them to panic (which now that I think about, were frenzied and shouldn't have panicked, but my brother didn't mention the frenzy until a few turns later). This time my knights went stupid (so 4 stupidity rolls so far, 2 fails, LD9). My chariot charged the jezzails... a whole 11", well short of what was needed. The warriors moved up to take a charge from the ogres. The sorceress hit the monks with life steal taking out about half of them. Shooting killed one of the ogres from the other group.
His turn he moved up his left flank setting the slaves up to be a sacrificial unit to my knights. He charge the ogre into the warriors. His jezzails hit the chariot this time but failed to wound, his ratling gun took out 2 COKnights, his other misfired and killed 3ish clanrats. The rat ogre took a beating from the warriors killing one of them before it got to attack. The other did a couple wounds, but still lost combat and ran away. The warriors overran into the side of the fresh plague monk unit.
On my turn the witch elves charge the monks that the warriors were in the flank of, the Dark Riders charge the slaves (to keep the knights from getting tied up), the chariot charged the jezzails, and the corsairs moved up and laid waste to his engineer with handbows. The sorceress hit the salves with steal life, taking out about half of them (she would have like 20+ wounds now if it wasn't capped at 2x her starting wounds). Jezzails all died to the impact hits from the chariot (if they would have fled they would have had to run off the board to keep from being caught). The witch elves butchered the monks (I think they killed 11, maybe 13), the warriors did a couple more, the monks killed 5 witches before being run down and killed. Thanks to the help from drain life the dark riders were able to get the slaves down to loose steadfast, DRs didn't take any wounds back, slaves broke and killed 2 DRs, and 1 clanrat in the process of fleeing.
His turn he charged the DRs with a unit of clan rats and storm vermin, the DR fled and he redirected into the flank of the knights, just barely reaching. The half unit of monks hit earlier by black horror (or drain life, I forget) charge the witch elves. He managed to not do any wounds to the knights, the knights killed 2, and lost combat by 2 (flank+3ranks-2kills), they passed the test, then used the musician to reform facing the clanrats. The witch elves butchered the plague monks, but lost 3 more, the last 4 monks fled and were caught by the witches.
The sorceress once again cast drain life, this time into the clan rats in combat with the knights, this time she got a loss of control, still killing half of the clan rats (30+ wounds now if she could...) but loosed 3 caster levels in the process. The knights killed a few more and they ran.

He still had a unit of mostly full clan rats with ratling gun and a mostly full unit of storm vermin, a stupid ogre, and his warlord but I hadn't lost a full unit yet. We called the game at this point.
I had forgot to give the +1CR for charging the whole game, so it sort of evened out in the end. I'm not sure if it would have made a difference in any of the fights anyway. The sorceress probably killed 40-50 models on her own, she got lucky getting steal life (or soul steal... forget which one is Dark magic and which one is death, they are almost the same spell though) and black horror, both of which make very good use of the extra power dice from the new system and both very good against horde armies. The witch elves also killed probably 25 models (not counting running down more), they are made for facing this kind of army. My sorceress was in the right place at the right time to keep him from getting steadfast for almost all of his units, and the ones that did only had +1 rank so was only testing on LD6 most of the time anyway. He also moved his ratling guns too much so only got to shoot each one once or twice. His engineer didn't manage to get any spells off (only having 1 spell made having 11 power dice a moot point), and his jezzails just couldn't hit anything. A better understanding of the new rules would have helped too.
It will take him a little while to learn how to win and learn how to use his units together.

[Jair Barik]

Seems to me the Lizardmen have been hit pretty hard (but this might just be cause I need time to adjust to it).

Skirmishing skinks don't seem good anymore.
Saurus are hit pretty hard by everything (I1 so they only ever strike before ASL units and as their main appeal was 2 attacks per head with spears the new rank attacks they don't really gain like other armies do)
Terradons are much weaker it seems.
Saurus cavalry don't even have lances anyway so they aren't too great.
Mixed Kroxigor units are basically dead to me.

[crazedloon]

lizards IMHO are one of the better armies in the new edition.

-Chameleons are ridiculous now thanks to scout, march and shoot they kill enmy war machines turn 1 consistently

-Teredons gain the vanguard move which leaves them around the same power as chameleons with a little more maneuverability

-Mixed Kroxigor units are great. They mqay not be able to stand toe to toe with other large blocks of troops (though they still can) they can bash heavy units in with ease. They retain stubborn easily and the Kroxigor provide the punch

-Slann are awesome now for shutting down magic thanks to their remove 6s ability. Now when an opponent fails becuase of too many 6s that caster is shut down.

-Slann have access to the lore of life which is one of the best lores in the game at this time with the ability to throw wounds back on Kroxigor's, bring back your temple guard and make your sauruses T8.

-Going last sucks but than you did that in the majority of your game in 7th so its not too much of a loss

edit: though I will admit stegadons have gotten a huge hit thanks to the stupid template rules

[Jair Barik]

I'm yet to fully read the new rules but it seems to me Krox are better in non mixed units as they don't get their stomp attacks in mixed units. That tip on the chameleons is interesting, I'll have to try it. How are EotG's now?

[DranWork]

as a WoC player I've never understood the appeal of Calv anyway (and we have one of the better cav units in the game) they are expensive and dont really gain that much of an advantage in this edition as they are going to be getting hit back after a charge. The best thing in previous editions was that they could charge, kill the first rank, and not get attacked. Considering Cav units are usually around the 6-10 model mark you really feel every loss, compared to say my Maud regiments that are in the 30's losing one or 10 of them isn't that much of a huge loss. Infantry get as much attacks if not more then Cav now as well due to the 2 ranks fighting rule, plenty of times I've seen my tricked out Knights unit fall to standard infantry.

[Erloas]

The primary advantage of all cav is their speed, since the only thing faster is other cav or flyers. And in most cases their strength as well, since lances are very common to cav, but great weapons aren't all that common for infantry (well it is an option for many armies, but usually a single option, though heavy cav is a single option as well). And on top of that they have good armor.

Sure most infantry will now get attacks back against cav, but your average heavy Cav has a 2+ armor save, which will be taken unmodified against most things they charge, and with their charge range, they will usually get to pick their battles.

If you can't find a use for a good armor save, fast unit, that hits hard... well then you just aren't trying.

Given with the new rules they need to be about 80% more expensive, but at least now they get extra attacks for it in the process. They also need support to guarantee breaking most opponent in the first round, but they can still function just as well without support when facing other elite units like other cav and heavy infantry. Even against large blocks of troops, since most are around LD7, maybe 8 with a character around, even with steadfast most units will still fail about 40% of the time.

Sure Cav doesn't fill the same roll as infantry, but at the same time, no infantry can completely fill the roll of Cav either. They both have things they can do and things they can't do.

[Eldan]

This weekend, I think I've had my most brutal loss ever against Dark Elves.

1200 points, I used my standard 1000 point army plus some ogres and magic items.

He had, if I remember correctly, 1 horde of warriors, a unit of corsairs, a hydra, crossbowmen, some other unit, a hero and, sadly, a level 4 mage.

During my turn, I moved a little forward, and not much else. Tried to cast a spell, he activated an item which made it backfire on me, killing my mage. In his turn, his sorceress started sacrificing warriors and in the end cast four powerful spells, none of which I managed to dispel. In the process, he wiped out one unit entirely and broke the morale of two others. In the end, all but two of my units fled.

I gave up, before I even had my second turn.

[crazedloon]

to cast a spell, he activated an item which made it backfire on me, killing my mage.

was it the ring of hotek (makes you miscast on doubles) because that has been erratad to not be as ridiculous. Now it effect any caster casting spells from within 12", emphasis on any and since your opponent cast 4 "powerful" spells I am assuming he rolled a few doubles so you may need to inform him that he needs to look at his errata

[Eldan]

Yeah, exactly. He did somehow get it within 12 inches of my caster, after we had both moved, though he had it on the secondary hero, not on the main caster, so that one was out of range.

Though I also suspect he might have been cheating, from the way he grinned after I told him I didn't know Dark Elf magic and items at all. It was my third game that day, I had never seen that opponent before and I didn't care much anymore.

[crazedloon]

:smallconfused:

Seems like you went first so unless you move more than 12 inches towards his guy you should have been out of range (since he lacked vanguard moves or scouts) maybe I am reading that wrong but sounds a wee bit shady.

But speaking of horrible games I had one today where I played vs lizardmen. Opponent miscasts turn 1 with his slann who cupped hands the misscast at my vampire lord who promptly rolls a 4 and dies turn 1 (all the while my opponent gained an irresistible dwellers bellow on the same unit with my lord) Now that is not the way to loose but it was amusing to at least

[Winterwind]

Exactly! A "pretty good idea" can be approximated by a guess from an experienced war-gamer. I mean it's all "I reckon those guys are, oh, 800 metres away." But then their arrows fall short and it's all "Oh. I guess they were further. Er, my bad."
I will agree to disagree on this point. I'm not in favour of it, but others are, so.Sounds fair.


I think my issue is exactly how random it is. I mean maybe if the distances were like 4d3 or something, but as it stands there's just too much variation for me. Maybe it's another verisimilitude thing; and come to think of it it probably wouldn't have come up if I didn't know about how it worked previously.Probably a matter of taste, too. I think 2d6 is pretty much ideal - it's bell-curved enough to not yield surprises most of the time, but still surprises one often enough to actually matter.
And 2 best out of 3d6 for cavalry is fairly reliable most of the time.


Reading what I wrote again, I think I was arguing that Dwarves might even be less mobile than before, since their Marching abilities are hardly unique any more, and by comparison they could be moving even slower than armies with good leadership....perhaps, but at least they will be able to get at least a few combats on their terms rather than the enemy's now.


I am biased, and I freely admit that a non-trivial amount of my distaste for this edition is how badly Wood Elves got hit. I don't think I can help it; it's probably simply human nature to look at change in terms of how it affects you. You all probably ought to take my opinions with some salt.:smalltongue:

I see it more as a "Hey, we were hit, so that means our next army book will probably come sooner than it would have otherwise, and then we will have a new army book and superior rules! Double-win!" :smalltongue:


Yes, but I don't think cavalry can benefit from spears giving Fight in Extra Ranks, or from the Horde rules, or similar.Not Fight in Extra Ranks, but they do get attacks from the second rank. And I'm not certain (away from book right now), but I think they would benefit from Horde just fine, if you can field enough of them (for pretty much all cavalry, it firstly would not be practical, and secondly most of them have a maximum unit size of about 15 models).

So let's see - a unit of Imperial Knights vs. a unit of Imperial Spearmen.
Last edition: Knights get 1 knightly attack and 1 steed attack per model in base-to-base, Spearmen get 2 attacks per model in base-to-base.
This edition: Knights get 2 knightly attacks per model in base-to base and 1 steed attack per model in base-to-base, Spearmen get 3 attacks per model in base-to-base.
So both have gotten a 50% increase in attack number, only for the Knights, it's the increase in the vastly superior half of their attacks, the Spearmen only get more of the same extremely mediocre attacks. I'd say the Knights got the better deal there. :smallwink:


Right, but what kind of targets would a unit of 5-10 T3 5+ save models be able to hit?
War machines? Maybe. Not Dwarf ones, though.Warmachines, single character models walking along, the mage in the enemy unit, ranged units (if charging from outside the arc of sight, which their mobility helps them to get to)...


I can't really relate to this. Again, biased.Obviously, I'm not talking about Wood Elves here. But, surely you can imagine how it works for other armies, right? :smallwink:


Do they, though? I mean if they're not armed with Lances I'm not seeing how they're more effective on the charge than infantry of similar stats.If they are not armed with lances they are at least armed with spears or are Chaos Knights (and as such are intrinsically better anyhow).


Now I'm not sure this wasn't around in the previous edition. I've heard much more about combined charges and such than I heard about single units devastating the enemy. Maybe that's just me though.That's because that's how it basically worked for Wood Elves. Other armies were quite capable of that.
And, sure, a combined charge always was preferable. But now the necessity for trying to pull them off was increased; I'd argue this increases the demand for good strategic moves.


Possibly. But to me the majority of the strategy in the last edition was forcing your opponent to make bad moves and capitalising on it. I just don't see what this edition's strategy is; it seems to me more like smashing blocks of infantry against each other and duking it out for four turns.Making good moves oneself and capitalising on it? :smalltongue:
Especially, using the units to their strengths (light cavalry -> vanguard move -> go hunt the weaker enemy units, infantry -> lock the enemy in place, get rid of steadfast, heavy cavalry -> break the enemy unit once the infantry has done its job) and maneuvering them to where that is possible.


Hm.
Would now be a good time to mention I've never actually played a game of WHFB and am basically talking out of my arse?Eh, I've had, what, a dozen games so far? Perhaps a few more, but surely less than twenty. So I wouldn't exactly consider myself an experienced and seasoned player either. :smallwink:


How are EotG's now?As powerful and useful as ever, I think; the main problem with them is probably that even one of them likely eats up almost your entire point allotment for Heroes, so if you want to take something like a BSB, there could be problems in smaller games.

On the other hand, between a Slann and that thing, every opponent will dread your magic phase...


This weekend, I think I've had my most brutal loss ever against Dark Elves.Ow. Sorry to hear that. :smalleek:

Yes, I remember thinking when I re-read the Dark Elves armybook lately that their magic is going to be incredibly nasty now. Though while I remember they had stuff that was nasty for enemy casters, I do not quite remember what might be able to kill a wizard outright. :smallconfused:

[Eldan]

As I said above, I suspect he might have been cheating. The situation was pretty much:

Him: "And on this hero, I have the Ring of Hotek. Your wizards is in range."
Me: "I have no idea what that does."
Him: *evil grin, followed by explanation of horribleness happening to me, resulting in dead wizard-general*

[crazedloon]

... yah when that sort of stuff happens I ask to look at a army book to verify (not so much becuase I do not believe my opponent but more for future reference how to avoid those things) not that it would help in this case since it was the errata that is important.

I presume you cast a spell at the unit (or into a unit in the guys bubble) which was why the item was broken before the edition change becuase it pretty much made a 12" bubble of magic immunity

[Eldan]

I probably should have. But, as I said, I had played two other games that day already, didn't know the guy and didn't really care anymore.

[Ninja Chocobo]

:smalltongue:

I see it more as a "Hey, we were hit, so that means our next army book will probably come sooner than it would have otherwise, and then we will have a new army book and superior rules! Double-win!" :smalltongue:

Really? Current scuttlebutt has them pegged as coming after Greenskins, Tomb Kings, Brettonians, Ogre Kingdoms and from some folks I've heard High Elves or Empire.
Even if they get bumped up a few slots we're still waiting like two years, and GW doesn't exactly have a good track record for redoing old armies that have gotten utterly shafted by edition changes (I'm looking at yooooou, Necrons).


Not Fight in Extra Ranks, but they do get attacks from the second rank. And I'm not certain (away from book right now), but I think they would benefit from Horde just fine, if you can field enough of them (for pretty much all cavalry, it firstly would not be practical, and secondly most of them have a maximum unit size of about 15 models).

You show me a person who has thirty horsepeople in three ranks and I will show you a person who is insane.


So both have gotten a 50% increase in attack number, only for the Knights, it's the increase in the vastly superior half of their attacks, the Spearmen only get more of the same extremely mediocre attacks. I'd say the Knights got the better deal there. :smallwink:

Hrm. I still think you're generalising with "vastly superior" vs. "extremely mediocre". Plenty of S3 fast cav with spears, and plenty of S4 ranked inf with spears.
Come to think of it, though, Wild Riders are pretty interesting. A permanent 5++ is not really something to be sniffed at...bears investigating.


Warmachines, single character models walking along, the mage in the enemy unit, ranged units (if charging from outside the arc of sight, which their mobility helps them to get to)...

I'd be hesitant about charging ranged units; quite a few of them have better special rules and saves and Strengths, and you can only dedicate so many attacks to the mage, while the rest of the unit murderises you.


Eh, I've had, what, a dozen games so far? Perhaps a few more, but surely less than twenty. So I wouldn't exactly consider myself an experienced and seasoned player either. :smallwink:

I just sat down one day and read the 7e mini rulebook cover to cover. That, and my army book, is the only experience I have.
e: Also World's End Radio and the first ~two thirds of the Podhammer archives.

[Erloas]

Yeah, exactly. He did somehow get it within 12 inches of my caster, after we had both moved, though he had it on the secondary hero, not on the main caster, so that one was out of range.

Though I also suspect he might have been cheating, from the way he grinned after I told him I didn't know Dark Elf magic and items at all. It was my third game that day, I had never seen that opponent before and I didn't care much anymore.
He may not have though. The ring of hotek is very powerful against enemy casters if you can get it into place. Its not uncommon to have a sacrificial character on a horse to shut down an enemy caster even if they know the character is likely to die. If you know to expect it you can watch out for that character or keep your own casters in such a place that its very hard to not get your and his casters both in the bubble, or you can forgo magic for a turn and take the character carrying it out in a different way very early on, or just use fewer dice then you normally would to mitigate the possibility of doubles. In a lot of ways you kind of have to treat the item as you would fanatics, they are strong and dangerous in certain circumstances, or almost useless in others, and in some cases you don't even need them, you just need to make your opponent believe you probably have them to change how they do certain things.

As for how dangerous the caster is, I think my game was a good example of how dangerous just a level 2 DE caster can be in the right circumstances, and that was a 1500 point game. DE have 2 spells that are exceptionally good at killing large unit, another that is pretty good, then a utility spell and some normal magic missiles. With a level 4 its very likely to end up with the good horde killing spells. Probably had the focus familiar to give him better range for drain life(soul steal?), sacrificial dagger obviously, and very possibly the Tome of Furion (allows an additional spell known). Its probably a good example of why they shouldn't have allowed lord level casters in smaller battles.



I just sat down one day and read the 7e mini rulebook cover to cover. That, and my army book, is the only experience I have.
e: Also World's End Radio and the first ~two thirds of the Podhammer archives.
That might work if you are very familiar with wargames in general, but there is still a big difference between theory and practice. For one, the deathstar units that people were making a lot in 7th edition isn't something thats going to jump out in the rules but they worked very well in practice. The MSU idea that got very big in 7th edition started out as a new tactic with DE in 6th edition and eventually got to the point where it was widely used by most armies. The terror bombs were another one that took a while to really get big, with their primary method of winning wasn't so much killing the opponent as it was forcing enough panic checks very early on that you only had to face half the opponents army most of the time. The ideas have been in the rules for a long time, but it took a while for those methods of exploit started showing up much.

What you don't see as much by not having played is how hard it can be to get into a good flanking position without leaving yourself open. Learning when to flee and went to take a charge, when its ok to sacrifice certain units and how to do it. Even if those fast cav can't take out that dwarf war machine (and in most cases they can) they can probably get locked into combat with it for 2-3 rounds of combat, by which time, even if it isn't dead, its lost all its prime turns for shooting and its best targets are probably now in combat anyway. Sacrificing a 200 point unit to kill a 150 point wizard might not seem like a great idea, but in most cases it is because that 150 point wizard is in all likelihood more dangerous then any other unit less then 300 points.

[HerbieRAI]

The ring of Hotek is an anti-magic bubble that can hurt both sides wizards.

If he ran up within 12 inches of your wizard, than any of your units that were within 12 inches of the ring would have had the same magic protection from the dark elf wizard. Also, I believe with the new errata, the ring does not stop the spell for going off, only makes the caster roll on the miscast table. (how I've been playing it)

I believe you can only use the dagger once per each spell, so he can't kill 5 of his guys and cast a spell with those 5 dice. I'll look this stuff over also when I get back home.

Side note to Erloas: All of the dark elf magic items you listed (dagger, familiar, Tome) are all arcane items, so they can only have one per wizard.

[Erloas]

As per DE FAQ 1.1 (the newest on the US website)

Page 102 – Ring of Hotek
Change to “Any Wizard (friend or foe) attempting to cast a
spell within 12" of the wearer must roll on the Miscast table on
any roll of a double, but will only cast a spell with irresistible
force on a roll of double 6.”

It has nothing to do with the target of the spell, its where the caster is in relation to the ring. Its the same item they've had for a long time, its just that generally speaking its hard to get the item within 12" of an enemy caster for enough time for it to be a big problem, especially since most people never tried any spells with more then 3 dice, and usually 2, your chances of doubles isn't that great. Its a lot more common to get doubles now when you easily have 4-6 dice to throw at some spells.

As for the dagger, I would have to check, but I think you can use it as many times as you want. The dagger specifically states you can cause a panic check in your own unit if you sacrifice over 25% of the unit in one magic phase (not just 1 spell). It doesn't say, but I would play it that if you did cause a panic check, that panic check would happen before you cast the spell that you were sacrificing for, so you run the risk of panicking the unit the sorceress is in before she can finish casting. I'm not sure if the dagger dice can be used entirely on their own though, you might have to have at least 1 pool die to use with the spell before you can use the dagger, but I'm not sure on that part.

[HerbieRAI]

The dagger does say "Once per spell-casting attempt, after the dice have been rolled, the Sorceress may sacrifice a model in a unit she has joined"

Thanks for telling me about the ring, I've been playing it wrong for a while now. I also learned recently that the level 0 isn't a free spell, it has to be switched. I have a problem with skimming rules and thinking their still to my advantage.

I am building a dark elf army to a Christmas theme, so I'm hoping to find a way to put in some dark rides that I've converted to reindeer, but what should I take out? The chariot is Santa's sleigh and the executioners have candy canes instead of swords, so I'd like to keep them in. We usually play 2400 pt matches.


Lord
1 supreme sorceress - 285(lore of shadow)
Lvl 4
channeling staff
seed of rebirth

Hero
1 sorceress - 160 (dark magic)
Lvl 2
darkstar cloak
1 hag - 180 -goes with executioners
bsb
asf banner
dance of doom
1 hag 200
alter of blood

Core
20 corsairs - 225
full command
20 corsairs - 225
full command
20 spearmen - 155
shields
full command

Special
15 executioners - 210 -joined by BSB
full command
15 black gruard - 238
standard/ champ
leadership banner
1 cold one chariot -100


Rare
1 hydra - 175
1 bolt thrower - 100

Other
1 assassin - 146
hand weapon
rune of khaine
Manbane

total: 2399 (2400)

[Winterwind]

Really? Current scuttlebutt has them pegged as coming after Greenskins, Tomb Kings, Brettonians, Ogre Kingdoms and from some folks I've heard High Elves or Empire.
Even if they get bumped up a few slots we're still waiting like two years, and GW doesn't exactly have a good track record for redoing old armies that have gotten utterly shafted by edition changes (I'm looking at yooooou, Necrons).I've heard that too. Just as I've heard rumours about them being the next.
There are a few things that give me hope we won't end up as the Fantasy Necrons though:
1.) Wood Elves seem to be reasonably popular,
2.) Games Workshop seems to have been doing a somewhat better job at keeping the army books coming out fairly in Fantasy than in 40k (though the Tomb Kings admittedly have been waiting for very long now),
3.) There are no Space Marines in Fantasy to steal half of the army book releases.
:smallwink:


You show me a person who has thirty horsepeople in three ranks and I will show you a person who is insane.Not to mention, as I said before, most likely illegal. Cavalry usually has unit sizes of 5-15, not 5+. :smallwink:


Hrm. I still think you're generalising with "vastly superior" vs. "extremely mediocre". Plenty of S3 fast cav with spears, and plenty of S4 ranked inf with spears.
Come to think of it, though, Wild Riders are pretty interesting. A permanent 5++ is not really something to be sniffed at...bears investigating.5+/5++, no less. And with S5 on the charge (same as for Bretonian and Imperial non-special-choice knights), and S4 and two attacks when not charging (making them offensively superior to all knights except for Chaos ones). :smallsmile:
As per the errata (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1310264a_FAQ_WoodElves_2010_v11.pdf), Wild Rider Kindred Nobles may now take the Helm of the Hunt and do not lose their longbow. This makes me so happy. I'm totally going to use a Spear-LightArmour-HotH-HailOfDoom-WildRiderKindred Noble now and have him be accompanied by Wild Riders. So far, I'd used him with Glade Riders, and it was effective, but I was very often hesitant to have him charge into combat after having used the Hail of Doom; with Wild Riders, this is going to be awesome. :smallcool:

Now I only have to decide whether to get him a Giant Stag, too. Probably so. +1T, +1W, and the additional attacks of the Stag is nothing to scoff at. :smallcool:


I'd be hesitant about charging ranged units; quite a few of them have better special rules and saves and Strengths, and you can only dedicate so many attacks to the mage, while the rest of the unit murderises you.I do not expect the riders to make it out alive. But if they take the mage down in the process, it totally was worth it.


I just sat down one day and read the 7e mini rulebook cover to cover. That, and my army book, is the only experience I have.
e: Also World's End Radio and the first ~two thirds of the Podhammer archives.Ooooh, that you very, very much for that. I had been totally unaware of the existence of such podcasts; have been listening to them quite intensely yesterday. Loving it (though it took me a while to get used to the aussie accent :smalltongue:). :smallsmile:

[Eldan]

The dagger does say "Once per spell-casting attempt, after the dice have been rolled, the Sorceress may sacrifice a model in a unit she has joined"


He definitely used it wrong, then. He sacrificed two or three models per spell, before rolling the dice. It also wasn't applied to his own mage (the two mages were fairly close, and the hero between them).

[Erloas]

The dagger does say "Once per spell-casting attempt, after the dice have been rolled, the Sorceress may sacrifice a model in a unit she has joined"

Thanks for telling me about the ring, I've been playing it wrong for a while now. I also learned recently that the level 0 isn't a free spell, it has to be switched. I have a problem with skimming rules and thinking their still to my advantage.
Well if I had internet last night I would have been able to look at the book (internet was out all day at home)...
I didn't know the dagger rules very well because I haven't used it much, I was right about not being able to use just the dagger dice, but wrong about how many you could sacrifice.

As for the 0 level spell, for the basic lores you don't get the 0 level spell, but for the DE they do (as well as Vampires getting their 0 level spell). It says "all sorceresses with the dark magic lore automatically know Power of Darkness" or something like that. At least I'm virtually positive it does, would have to have the book in hand to be 100% sure.



I am building a dark elf army to a Christmas theme, so I'm hoping to find a way to put in some dark rides that I've converted to reindeer, but what should I take out? The chariot is Santa's sleigh and the executioners have candy canes instead of swords, so I'd like to keep them in. We usually play 2400 pt matches.


Lord
1 supreme sorceress - 285(lore of shadow)
Lvl 4
channeling staff
seed of rebirth

Hero
1 sorceress - 160 (dark magic)
Lvl 2
darkstar cloak
1 hag - 180 -goes with executioners
bsb
asf banner
dance of doom
1 hag 200
alter of blood

Core
20 corsairs - 225
full command
20 corsairs - 225
full command
20 spearmen - 155
shields
full command

Special
15 executioners - 210 -joined by BSB
full command
15 black gruard - 238
standard/ champ
leadership banner
1 cold one chariot -100


Rare
1 hydra - 175
1 bolt thrower - 100

Other
1 assassin - 146
hand weapon
rune of khaine
Manbane

total: 2399 (2400)



It sounds like an interesting army. I probably would have put a master in a chariot for santa, but that would have had to change the BSB or hag with cauldron (though I believe if the master was a BSB he could still take a chariot), or drop the level 2.

Given the apparent nature of the list, I'm not sure what the bolt thrower will really get you since its going to be left behind and unprotected very quickly.

The assassin... I suppose it depends what you will be facing, but I could see quite a few cases where he doesn't change a whole lot in terms of what a unit can do or survive.

Given the nature of what you will be seeing in groups of 20+ (low skill, low str/t/save) models, with the corsairs extra attacks (I'm assuming you aren't switching any to handbows even though they are the same cost) they could probably take down enough that they will probably loose steadfast anyway, especially with all of the magic to soften up units. You could probably get by with 15, and that would free up 100 points between the two units. Which is enough for 5 DRs at least.
One thing to keep in mind about the handbows is they always get to stand and shoot, and with shooting in 2 ranks, thats 20 shots at 5 wide. You could probably purposefully not charge with them, take the charge, stand-and-shoot, only loose 5 attacks in combat and with your I, go first anyway. So you trade 5 close combat attacks for 20 handbow attacks.

The alter of blood also seems a little out of place with only a single khainite unit on the field, though I know it benefits other units as well.

Is the hydra going to be an abomininal snowman?

[Winterwind]

As for the 0 level spell, for the basic lores you don't get the 0 level spell, but for the DE they do (as well as Vampires getting their 0 level spell). It says "all sorceresses with the dark magic lore automatically know Power of Darkness" or something like that. At least I'm virtually positive it does, would have to have the book in hand to be 100% sure.Yes, that is correct.


One thing to keep in mind about the handbows is they always get to stand and shoot, and with shooting in 2 ranks, thats 20 shots at 5 wide. You could probably purposefully not charge with them, take the charge, stand-and-shoot, only loose 5 attacks in combat and with your I, go first anyway. So you trade 5 close combat attacks for 20 handbow attacks.You would be getting negative modifiers for stand&shoot and multiple shots though - there wouldn't be all that much hitting anymore...


How good do you think this list would be for 2250 points? Any suggestions? :smallsmile:
{table]Type|Unit|Equipment|Formation|Points
Lord|Spellweaver|Level 4 (Lore of Life), Wand of the Wych Elm (allows rerolling all dispel attempts)|With Glade Guard I, Army General|305
Hero|Spellsinger|Level 2 (Lore of Athel Loren), Dispel Scroll|With Glade Guard II|150
Hero|Noble|Wild Rider Kindred, Elven Steed, Helm of the Hunt (+1 armour, +1A and WS when charging), Hail of Doom Arrow (one use, turns shot into 3d6 S4 shots|With Wild Riders|172
Core|11 Glade Guard|Full Command, Aech - Banner of Springtide (allows to always stand&shoot)|2x5|181
Core|10 Glade Guard|Musician|2x5|126
Core|5 Glade Riders|Musician|1x5|129
Core|10 Dryads|Champion|2x5|132
Special|9 War Dancers|Musician|2x5|169
Special|3 Treekin|-|1x3|195
Special|5 Wild Riders|Full Command, Razor Banner (Armour Piercing)|1x5|211
Rare|8 Waywatchers|-|2x4|192
Rare|Treeman|-|-|285
|||Total|2247
[/table]

[crazedloon]

well you don't auto loose in fortitude games but you darn near do with a fort of only 4 and a break point of 3 so I would suggest adding banners where you can. Everything else you need to take with a grain of salt since I do not actually play wood elves

I would think combining the 2 units of glade guard would be ideal for the increase in combat survivability (as well as return fire from ranged shots) you only loose 5 shots thanks to volley (or if the 11 is not a type you go 7 wide and only loose 3/4 with the the characters in the unit)

[Winterwind]

well you don't auto loose in fortitude games but you darn near do with a fort of only 4 and a break point of 3 so I would suggest adding banners where you can. Everything else you need to take with a grain of salt since I do not actually play wood elvesI guess I could drop the unit with 11 Glade Guard down to 10 and give the other Glade Guard unit a banner too. Yeah, that's probably a wise move. Thanks! :smallsmile:

Next step, when I progress to higher points, one of the next additions will be a BSB; probably with that banner that gives flaming attacks (that way, when facing something fire-resistant like Dragon Princes or... well, Dragon Princes, I can remove him from the group and get rid of the effect again as necessary).

Oddly enough, I've won every fortitude game so far (though the ones I had until now where 3 fortitude with break point 2 games, where I had all my fortitude in one unit; now there are at least two).


I would think combining the 2 units of glade guard would be ideal for the increase in combat survivability (as well as return fire from ranged shots) you only loose 5 shots thanks to volley (or if the 11 is not a type you go 7 wide and only loose 3/4 with the the characters in the unit)The reason I'm a bit wary of doing this is that Wood Elves do not get negative modifiers for moving when they shoot, something one usually wants to take advantage of (by, say, moving them into close range one turn, shooting, and then slowly backing up again as the enemy approaches, or simply by having them face whereever it is the most prudent to have them face at the moment). And since you cannot use volley when you move, I'd either be missing out on a lot more shots, or on my maneuverability, neither of which is a very inviting prospect.

[Erloas]

You would be getting negative modifiers for stand&shoot and multiple shots though - there wouldn't be all that much hitting anymore...
Yes, but for DE thats always the case since all of their ranged is multi-shot. Compared to a normal bow you are hitting on 4 instead of 3, or 5 instead of 4(moving and range don't matter, not charged, or charged), but you have twice as many shots, in both cases you come out ahead with twice as many shots.

On average 20 shots at BS4 against a charging enemy would be 6.66 hits, you are giving up 5 attacks for that. In all likelihood you shot the turn you didn't charge too (10 hits on average). I see that as a net-win in just about every case. They are all str3 hits, so no change there either.

[Winterwind]

Yeah, that's true. Unless either your opponent would consist of skirmishers or the combat lasted more than one round. In that case, the dual close combat weapons might be a better choice after all.

[Erloas]

There are very few skrimishers that would willingly engage a blocked unit like that, and outside of the wood elves, I can't think of any that would be much of a threat in close combat (most are archers with little armor) and very few skirmisher units have the numbers to stay in a drawn out combat.

I was also under the assumption that in the case of setting up to recive a charge, you have your own units positioned to take advantage of it the next turn, so the unit only has to hold a round before the hammer unit hits them.

And with a bit of thought... it seems like that would be a fairly good unit to keep a sorceress in, because most wizard hunter type units are high attack, low survivability types that would be torn up pretty bad by a barrage of handbows.
Its probably a better unit for protecting flanks too because you don't have to be able to charge to be a threat. If someone gets on their flank they can reform/turn and shoot, but they wouldn't have been able to charge. And with the case of things like fast cav, the usual unit to run flanks, they can run from a charge but they can't run from shooting.

They don't do much against heavy cav... but corsairs were never ment to deal with heavy cav and two handweapons wouldn't help them in that case either.

[Ninja Chocobo]

How good do you think this list would be for 2250 points? Any suggestions? :smallsmile:

I'm really not convinced Wardancers are any good now. Unless you're only hitting things that have magic weapons I just don't their 6++ is going to cut it.
If I'm wrong, yay. I really like Wardancers.

e: Also I think for the points you'd get more mileage out of a Divination Orb than a Dispel Scroll.

[DranWork]

Hey guys and girls. Just found this independent site called 2blackdragons.com which has some amazing looking models, for example I'm a WoC player and they have a lot of the special characters that don't have models as well as a lot of the characters out of the artwork (Engratta Deathsword for example) take a look great way to have a unique looking character after all!

They also have models for core special and rare choices.

[Arcanoi]

Doesn't GW frown immensely on modelling sites like those, and not even let you use them in tournaments?

[Ninja Chocobo]

Doesn't GW frown immensely on modelling sites like those, and not even let you use them in tournaments?

Well, if you're in Australia you don't have to worry about that at all.
But with this site, neither does anyone else. It's not a model site, it's a conversion site. The models aren't plastic or resin, they're just primed grey...poorly.

[Penguinizer]

I thought that a lot of those, especially the chariots, looked like they were built out of GW bits. Good looking conversions.

[Arcanoi]

Well, if you're in Australia you don't have to worry about that at all.
But with this site, neither does anyone else. It's not a model site, it's a conversion site. The models aren't plastic or resin, they're just primed grey...poorly.

So they buy the GW stuff and then convert it? That would probably be allowed, I guess.

[Ninja Chocobo]

So they buy the GW stuff and then convert it? That would probably be allowed, I guess.

What are they going to do? Forbid Citadel models?

[Winterwind]

I'm really not convinced Wardancers are any good now. Unless you're only hitting things that have magic weapons I just don't their 6++ is going to cut it.
If I'm wrong, yay. I really like Wardancers.I had been thinking about kicking them out of the list myself when 8th edition came around... and then they started to consistently win games for me. Literally. One game (that one I still want to write a battle report for) they pretty much were the only reason I won by dropping the opponent's fortitude by 3, the other game, they defeated a huge block on Bloodletters all on their own and dropped the opponent's fortitude to the breaking point.

I've come to see Wardancers like this by now:
- They are great character hunters. With their Killing Blow dance and ton of attacks, they are great for sending them straight into the unit housing the opponent's general, main caster, BSB or perhaps even multiple characters. They have a very good chance of dropping said character - and even though they may be shred to pieces afterwards, it's totally worth it.
- They are awesome against elite units. With their I6 they usually strike before them, and elite units often have so few models they feel every loss they take before striking themselves. And with WS6, they often hit even elite units on 3+, while being hit only on a 4+. Knights are a perfect target - with Killing Blow, they have a good chance of slaughtering them, and knights are expensive. But anything with good armour dreads that (Chaos Warriors on foot are a good target, too). Just yesterday, my Wardancers slaughtered a unit of Chosen almost twice their size. The probably best target are elite units that are highly offensively focused themselves, and have powerful attacks but low saves, like most Daemons - then, you can choose the +1A dance and really tear them apart. Even if the enemy is steadfast, you will end up killing the unit by just killing all of its models of in the long run. Should be worth the Wardancers' points.
- Surprisingly, they are also pretty good against really weak units - if the enemy has WS2, they need a 5+ to hit. Combine that with the 4+ ward save dance, and you have a pretty good chance to slaughter the enemy unit without taking any losses at all. Stuff like Skaven Slaves or most undead Troop choices fall into this category. Since most units of this category either have a very low Leadership or crumble when defeated, them being steadfast doesn't matter.
- The one thing Wardancers struggle against are cheap-but-not-quite-so-weak units, like Clanrats/Stormvermin, Marauders, etc. Even there, they can be expected to outkill the opponent and win the combat for you; they just won't do so point-efficiently, and the enemy likely will not run. Still, wanting desperately to win a combat, even if it you lose a few points in the process, is not a rare occurence (like, if the other unit the enemy is locked in combat with is your unit of Glade Guard containing your precious level 4 caster!). So, you pretty much still want them around to help other units take the enemy down (if the Wardancers manage to flank the enemy, they will slaughter him without taking too severe losses, too, especially if you manage to multicharge from another direction to prevent the enemy from reforming).

Altogether, in my experience, the real problem with Wardancers is that most opponents dread them so much they will direct most of their ranged attacks against them to prevent them from getting to their precious units. But then, that's more of a point in favour of the Wardancers being really good, rather than bad. :smallwink:


e: Also I think for the points you'd get more mileage out of a Divination Orb than a Dispel Scroll.That's basically a metagame issue. The Divination Orb is probably better when you play a lot against opponents who roll a lot of dice at once - so, players mostly using the new basic lores, preferably with low level casters.
However, far more often than that, I play against people who use their own lores (Skaven, Warriors of Chaos...) and therefore have very low casting values. They also usually bring a level 4 caster to the field. So, they very rarely need to roll more than two or three dice at once, hence the Divination Orb wouldn't do anything most of the time. And when they do get the Dreaded 13th Spell or an Infernal Gateway or such through early on, I'd rather be certain I can prevent it from causing me to lose on the very first turn.

__

So I tried that exact army list I posted before yesterday in a 2250 points game against a Warriors of Chaos player... and it was the most decisive victory I have had till now. With a bit more luck, I might have tabled him; even so, I won by more than 1000 victory points.

Wild Riders are great! Light cavalry is so not dead! :smallbiggrin:

[Erloas]

So I tried that exact army list I posted before yesterday in a 2250 points game against a Warriors of Chaos player... and it was the most decisive victory I have had till now. With a bit more luck, I might have tabled him; even so, I won by more than 1000 victory points.

Wild Riders are great! Light cavalry is so not dead! :smallbiggrin:

Well wild riders are more in that grey area of medium cavalry. The one that is not really defined, clearly not heavy cavalry, and not fast cavalry, but somewhere between. In the WE case they are more of shock cavalry.

Have to see how they handle against more opponents though, because the main weakness of the medium cavalry units is that they can't take the fire that normally gets directed at heavy cavalry, and they aren't quite as maneuverable as fast cavalry. And you were facing an army without any shooting (or very little). And at least you still have M9, but not quite the freedom of fast cavalry, and you don't get the move after fleeing that fast cavalry have.

They will have their uses against any opponent for sure, but one game against an army that can't exploit their main weakness isn't a great benchmark for them.

So are you going to get that game report written up or is it just going to disappear into obscurity as well?

[Ninja Chocobo]

Well wild riders are more in that grey area of medium cavalry. The one that is not really defined, clearly not heavy cavalry, and not fast cavalry, but somewhere between. In the WE case they are more of shock cavalry.

Erm, they are fast cavalry. Says so right here, in their statline.

I'm very glad Wardancers are still good, albeit not as amazing as they used to be.
A little vexed about Wild Riders; I sincerely dislike metal models, especially large, top-heavy ones.

[Erloas]

Oh, so they are. I was thinking only the glade riders were, but I don't have the WE rulebook and was going off of memory. It changes their movement some, but doesn't change the fact that shooting is their biggest weakness.

[Winterwind]

Well wild riders are more in that grey area of medium cavalry. The one that is not really defined, clearly not heavy cavalry, and not fast cavalry, but somewhere between. In the WE case they are more of shock cavalry.

Have to see how they handle against more opponents though, because the main weakness of the medium cavalry units is that they can't take the fire that normally gets directed at heavy cavalry, and they aren't quite as maneuverable as fast cavalry. And you were facing an army without any shooting (or very little). And at least you still have M9, but not quite the freedom of fast cavalry, and you don't get the move after fleeing that fast cavalry have.Actually, Wild Riders have the Fast Cavalry rule, too. :smallwink:
They do indeed not get the move after fleeing that other Fast Cavalry has, but that's because they are Immune to Psychology and therefore cannot flee in the first place. Unless they were broken in combat, fled, and were charged again in the subsequent turn (fleeing -> can only choose Flee as charge reaction -> get to use the Fast Cavalry rally-and-move rule on the next turn, if they rally then).
All other advantages of Fast Cavalry, like the Vanguard movement or the free reforms during movement fully apply to them though.

EDIT: Ninja'd! :smallredface:


They will have their uses against any opponent for sure, but one game against an army that can't exploit their main weakness isn't a great benchmark for them.That's true. Though at least against low strength fire, they are moderately durable (5+ armour and 5+ ward saves five out of nine times on average, after all), and more maneuverable and faster than regular heavy cavalry.


So are you going to get that game report written up or is it just going to disappear into obscurity as well?Which one? The one from yesterday, or that one I promised, what, two or three weeks ago?

The one from yesterday, sure, I'll write that up right away. As for the one from back then, the problem with that is that I kinda felt like writing it up as a story, but haven't had the inspiration to write on it ever since (or, well, it would probably be more honest to say I just didn't feel like writing it :smallredface:).

As for the one yesterday: As already mentioned, it was against Warriors of Chaos; as far as I remember, his army list went somewhat like this:
Chaos Lord with Mark of Khorne on Juggernaut, Armour of Destiny (4+ ward), shield, some magic weapon that gives Always Strike First (forgot which), Army General, with the Knights

Chaos Sorcerer, level 2 (Lore of Tzeentch), Mark of Tzeentch, Infernal Puppet (may modify all control loss rolls by 1d3), with the Warriors

Exalted Hero, Mark of Khorne, Chaos Steed, not sure about the equipment, with the Knights

Exalted Hero, Mark of Tzeentch (I think... may have been Khorne instead), Battle Standard Bearer, shield, Chaos Runesword (+1WS, +1S, +1A), with the Chosen

5 Chaos Knights, full command, mark of Khorne

~20 Chaos Warriors, full command, shields, Mark of Tzeentch, Blasted Standard (4+ save against ranged attacks, modified to 3+ by the Mark)

~15 Chosen of Chaos, full command, great weapons, Mark of Khorne, Favour of the Gods (got the +1A modification, bringing them to respectable 4 attacks per model)

~20 Marauders, full command, Mark of Khorne (or maybe Slaanesh, not sure), flails, light armour

5 Marauder Horsemen, full command, Mark of Slaanesh, throwing axes, light armour

It was scenario #2, the one where one rolls for every unit to see whether it's deployed at the left side, the right side or the middle. Oddly, half of my army ended up in the right flank (sheesh, how often can one roll a 2?), with only my Dryads on the left flank.

He got almost all of his forces in the centre, a few on his left flank (so opposing my powerful right flank)... and only his massive unit of Knights on his right flank. Still, being as fast as they were, I figured they would reach the battleline soon enough.

I've learnt by now which target to send my Waywatchers against, if I get the choice; I deployed them at the very far left side, just outside of the Knights vision and with a convenient forest the knights would have to pass in order to attack me in the way.

Since I wasn't too eager to get into close combat too early, before some decent shooting, I didn't use my Vanguard movement. Much to my surprise, my opponent chose to use his and move his Horsemen forward. Me having the first turn, I shrugged, and shot all but the champion dead. The rest of my shooting poured down onto the Chosen; it didn't kill many, until my Noble unleashed his Hail of Doom.

I've had very mixed experiences with the Hail of Doom; sometimes, it proved excellent, at other occasions, it pretty much didn't do anything at all. This was one of the former instances; five of Chaos' best warriors ended up being sent to their dark masters.

Sadly, my Waywatchers (overall one of my favourite units, and one I've pretty much always been happy to have at my side) failed to do anything whatsoever to the knights. Oh well.

His single Horsemen raced behind my lines and turned to charge into one of my Glade Guard's rear on the next turn. Apparently, he forgot that the Glade Riders who stood right next to him had no problem with shooting at targets behind them just fine...

To my surprise, his Knights, rather than turning against my Waywatchers or racing towards the other side of the battlefield, moved towards my Dryads (who were advancing very slowly, cautious to stay out of the Knights' charging range). This was a much welcome development, as it left the Knights right in the middle of a triangle formed by my Waywatchers, the Dryads, and Burrarum, my little fat Treeman, who was racing as fast as his roots could carry him towards the middle to intercept the Knights or - should they go up against the Dryads, even fall into their flank.

The rest of his army just advanced (their movement somewhat hampered by a massive ravine filled with lava that created a large spot of Impassable Terrain, forming a fairly narrow passage between it and the table's edge (which, however, hampered me just as badly and prevented me from using my maneuverability to try and get units into his flanks).

Next turn saw basically just a little more shooting and moving ahead; the last Horseman was shot to death my my Glade Riders. My Spellweaver felt cocky and unleashed a tempest of magical energies onto the battlefield, causing the earth beneath the Warriors of Chaos to erupt with gnarly, forbidden things trying to drag them into the netherworld; sadly, almost all of them managed to struggle free. The powers of the Warp, lured closer by this onslaught of raw power, tried to eat my Spellweaver instead, then; the Throne of Vines was all like "No wai", and the Warp shut up.

The Waywatchers, ashamed by their earlier performance, chased after the knights and shot at them from point-blank range again; this time, two of these harbingers of evil found out first hand how little arrows in a helm's eyeslits contribute to life.

My opponent actually sent his knights further towards the Dryads, only then realizing his mistake (totally exposing their flank to Burrarum, already tipping his branches together with an evil grin, mumbling "Excellent."); I let him take the move back and send them towards the Treeman instead.

His Marauders tried to assault my Glade Riders, who were waiting just far enough for me to be reasonable sure they wouldn't be reached; indeed, all the Marauders got from their effort were several arrows in their bellies and a mere 2" movement.

Then, my Wardancers charged his remaining Chosen, and the Wild Riders hurried to get into the Chosen's flank in an extremely all-or-nothing move by me - either the Chosen would break this very turn, or my Wild Riders would be flank-charged by the Warriors of Chaos themselves (who at this point were literally just one inch away from them).

More than half of the Chosen were slaughtered; my Noble was locked in a challenge with the Battle Standard Bearer, much to my dislike; he lived however, and if the Chosen broke, he'd be fine.

Alas, in spite of losing combat by 3, they did not. Battle Standards are awesome.

At the same time, Burrarum charged into the Knights. Which was a pretty dumb move by me; I should have moved just in front of them, used Strangle Roots, let him charge me, and use Stand&Shoot against them again. But, oh well. Blood and gore in close combat are fun, too. I guess Burrarum had eaten an Orc before the battle, or something.

The Treeman was slightly wounded, managed to crush another knight though - who, if you've been counting the knights' losses, was of course the musician. Which proved to be pretty awesome timing, because the combat ended with a tie.

The fight at the right flank took a turn to the worse when the Warriors of Chaos charged into my Wild Riders' flank. My Noble, Kurnous' fury rising in him, kept struggling against the bearer of the Chaos Warriors' vile banner, but to no avail; he was cut down without mercy, even as he fell still cut to pieces by the frenzied and vengeful Norseman. The Wardancers managed to kill the remaining Chosen except for the champion; the Wild Riders killed a few Warriors of Chaos, too, but ultimately, I lost the combat (more to Overkill and Static Combat Resolution than actual kill count). Both the Wardancers and the single remaining Wild Rider ran; the Wardancers were cut down, the Wild Rider got away. The momentum carried the champion of the Chosen and the Battle Standard Bearer straight into my Treekin, who were standing just behind the Wardancers.

On the left flank, Burrarum was brought down to 2 Wounds, losing the combat; but, being the stubborn fat tree he was, he stood rooted to the spot and kept on fighting.

This, however, was the time when my army's general decided to prove her worth. Calling forth the Winds of Magic, she mended Burrarum's wounds; the look on my opponent's face, when the mighty Treeman who had survived two rounds of combat with his elite crack unit suddenly rose up to full health again and roared triumphantly. Still not satisfied, she proceeded to bolster the Treekin. You know how flesh turned to stone tends to be quite durable? Turns out bark turned to stone beats even that. Treekin with Toughness 9 are... difficult to kill. :smallcool:

They promptly slaughtered the rest of the Chosen; the BSB refused to die though. My Glade Riders kept playing cat and mouse with the Marauders - they stayed at 15" distance and kept peppering them with shots, while the Marauders got a Stand&Shoot whenever they tried to charge, to no avail.

On the other side of the battlefield though the Dryads finally joined the battle and assaulted the Knights' flank. Since the model at that edge of the formation was the Exalted Hero, they directed all their attacks against him, bringing him down to 1 Wound; Burrarum took this opportunity and directed his attacks at the weakened chaos hero, crushing the servant of evil mercilessly. The knights lost that combat, and this time, their morale didn't hold up.

Poor Burrarum tried to keep up with the fleeing cavalry, but the little fat tree was too slow to get any of the fun.

Not so the Dryads. The vengeful forest spirits chased down the fleeing Chaos Lord with his remnant retinue mercilessly. The last skull this Lord would deliver to his sinister master on the brass throne was his own.

After enduring a little shooting, the Chaos Warriors joined the fight against the Treekin. With Flesh To Stone still active, they didn't accomplish much though.

I healed up the Wild Riders back to strength, thus bringing them to a size where they could rally again (which they did the next turn). I also renewed Flesh To Stone on the Treekin, much to my opponent's chagrin.

Alas, the last turn was decidedly unfortunate; due to very lucky rolls on his saves, my Treekin didn't manage to inflict any wounds on the Warriors of Chaos or the BSB, and were promptly defeated and run down by the Warriors of Chaos. The Warriors of Chaos then charged into my Glade Guard, the BSB charged into the flank of the other Glade Guard, and the Marauders finally got that lucky roll that allowed them to catch my Glade Riders. As a consequence, the Glade Guard with my general were forced to run (but made it away), the Glade Riders were defeated by the Marauders, who then joined in the fight between my other Glade Guard and the BSB; these latter Glade Guard were then defeated and run down.

And then the game ended.

My losses: the Wardancers, the Noble, the Treekin, the Glade Riders and one unit of Glade Guard (including a Spellsinger). Turns out in 8th edition a unit that is on the run when the game ends, but has not fled from the table, does not give any victory points. I still had my Treeman (practically unharmed), my Waywatchers, my Dryads, a mostly intact unit of Glade Guard and my Spellweaver general. Altogether, about 1000 points lost.

His losses: The Horsemen, the Chosen, the Chaos Knights, an Exalted Hero, the Chaos Lord (who was his general). The Marauders were down to like 5 models, but still lived.

We both captured two banners of the other side respectively (another oddity of 8th edition: The survival of the unit capturing the banner is not required to get these points! Which is probably the reason why banners give so much less points now.)

I have to correct my former statement of winning by more than 1000 points (I had miscalculated when it came to my losses, forgetting some 200 points), but it was a pretty massive victory anyhow.


Lessons to be learnt: Well, I kinda always figured that, but this game proved it: Dwellers Below is great, but if the choice is between casting Dwellers Below, and casting two buff spells, the latter is likely to be more effective.

My second caster pretty much didn't do anything throughout the game. Her magic was utterly irrelevant (she tried to cast Call of the Wild Hunt once, but failed, or it was dispelled, I forget, and other than that didn't cast at all), I hardly ever managed to channel (even with two dice), and the Wand of the Wych Elm provides me with such superior dispel capabilities I never had to use the dispel scroll (you may notice I never mentioned my opponent's magic. That's because, while he tried to cast Infernal Gateway pretty much every turn, he either failed or I dispelled it quite easily. The only spell he got through in the entire game was a Flickering Fire of Tzeentch, once, and it failed to do anything). So perhaps I should downgrade her to level 1 and use the points elsewhere, or even get rid of her altogether.

I was quite satisfied with how my army performed. There wasn't a single unit that disappointed me there; actually, the ones I could have gone without the most easily were, strangely enough, my Glade Guards (but that wasn't their fault; it was because this lava ravine forced all close combats to take place in such a limited space that I always had to shoot through other units, so he always had hard cover. Also, he had very few extremely expensive units, so once these were locked in close combat, I had no targets left at all.). Wardancers, Glade Riders... all of them had their role and fulfilled it just fine.

[Closet_Skeleton]

So let's see - a unit of Imperial Knights vs. a unit of Imperial Spearmen.
Last edition: Knights get 1 knightly attack and 1 steed attack per model in base-to-base, Spearmen get 2 attacks per model in base-to-base.
This edition: Knights get 2 knightly attacks per model in base-to base and 1 steed attack per model in base-to-base, Spearmen get 3 attacks per model in base-to-base.
So both have gotten a 50% increase in attack number, only for the Knights, it's the increase in the vastly superior half of their attacks, the Spearmen only get more of the same extremely mediocre attacks. I'd say the Knights got the better deal there. :smallwink:

Except that when they're not charging knights have pretty crappy attacks. Their only advantage over spearmen is +1 weapon skill. Unless they take great weapons or upgrade into a special choice, they have pretty bad offense after charging and most enemy units can survive a cavalry charge without breaking now due to steadfast.

Empire knights aren't chaos knights. They actually have worse offensive stats than empire swordsmen, having 1 less point of initiative (in return for +1 leadership and a way better save).

[DranWork]

Impressive win... for a wood elf :smalltongue: teheheh just mucking around. Sounds like your WoC opponent didn't really have a full handle on his list... An as a WoC player I cant really advocate what he took, but needless to say any day you clean up your opponent in such a glorious manner is a great day, so Congrats indeed!

So this friday is my grudge match against my local store manager. Last week he trounced me with a amazingly strong demon list in a small 1100 point battle. Now afterwards he shook my hand and said straight out "Pretty unfair match mate, since WoC get better the more points the game is played at" so I said "True enough, 2200 point game next week?".. so the games set for a battle royal or some such... So was mucking around with the idea of chosen with 2 hand weapons hopefuly getting either the +1 str or +1 attack roll on Eog. then giving them the banner that does -1 ac.. thoughts?

[crazedloon]

two warshrines every time they will not only assure you get the results you want they will make your unit even more ridiculous. With that in mind I would suggest great weapons for the extra power. Also run a life mage to bring them back and you will have a unit nothing will want to run into. Add the mark of Tzeench for more pain (4+/3+ lives through most anything)

[DranWork]

Unless I missed it, Chaos don't get access to Life at all (unless bos does it but even if it does it only makes you a lvl 1 caster even if on a more powerful mage.) So i don't think I can pull off that strat. I do generally run one warshrine and a hell cannon.

I thought about great weapons but forcing my dudes to strike last isn't that great. I had thought about Hailberds and shield, for better save getting into combat and higher str... Something I'll have to play around with I think.

[crazedloon]

touche (didn't check my book before I posted)

However I would still suggest doubling up on shrines if you can. By hitting chossen you have a much higher chance of getting what you want (even more so if you can get a character with his own roll on the table in the unit) as you re-roll doubles.

Against Deamons you will prolly not be able to out magic so take the normal defense like the puppet and tongue and make him pay for every spell he gets off.

[DranWork]

the beauty of chosen as well is you can give their champion WoG which lets you +1/-1 to the table for every roll. Chosen played right are amazingly good units (+3save +3 ward with moT and a roll of 12 on EoG.. oh and their stubborn :smallwink:)

[Winterwind]

Except that when they're not charging knights have pretty crappy attacks. Their only advantage over spearmen is +1 weapon skill. Unless they take great weapons or upgrade into a special choice, they have pretty bad offense after charging and most enemy units can survive a cavalry charge without breaking now due to steadfast.First of all, Steadfast is not Unbreakable. A Ld7 unit will still break almost half the time (unless in range of the BSB).

Second, yeah, absolutely. But when they charge, they win combats. And that's, I think, the main function of heavy cavalry in this edition - win combats for you whereever you want them won, now.


Empire knights aren't chaos knights. They actually have worse offensive stats than empire swordsmen, having 1 less point of initiative (in return for +1 leadership and a way better save).Aye, though this better save means they will usually suffer much less losses than they inflict. The infantry needs their rank bonus to make up for that, and rank bonus can be denied...


Impressive win... for a wood elf :smalltongue: teheheh just mucking around. Sounds like your WoC opponent didn't really have a full handle on his list... An as a WoC player I cant really advocate what he took, but needless to say any day you clean up your opponent in such a glorious manner is a great day, so Congrats indeed!Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

And yeah, his list indeed is not what I would take, either. What's the point of so many killy heroes when one has access to such durable, killy infantry and cavalry?


So this friday is my grudge match against my local store manager. Last week he trounced me with a amazingly strong demon list in a small 1100 point battle. Now afterwards he shook my hand and said straight out "Pretty unfair match mate, since WoC get better the more points the game is played at" so I said "True enough, 2200 point game next week?".. so the games set for a battle royal or some such... So was mucking around with the idea of chosen with 2 hand weapons hopefuly getting either the +1 str or +1 attack roll on Eog. then giving them the banner that does -1 ac.. thoughts?I think I wouldn't go with two handweapons, for the following reason.

Additional handweapons make you better at carving up things with T4 or less and a moderately low save. But you are already pretty good at defeating these things already, so your opponent will likely try to send something you are less effective against against this unit - like something with very high Toughness, a good save, or both. If you pick something that increases your strength, on the other hand, you become more effective against the things you previously were ineffective against, and thus more difficult to counter.

Mind, that's from a player whose main problems come from heavy cavalry, big monsters and nasty contraptions as the Doomwheel, so my perspective may be biased here. :smallwink:

[Closet_Skeleton]

two warshrines every time they will not only assure you get the results you want they will make your unit even more ridiculous.

They'll also get you cries of "cheese".

[Erloas]

Additional handweapons make you better at carving up things with T4 or less and a moderately low save. But you are already pretty good at defeating these things already, so your opponent will likely try to send something you are less effective against against this unit - like something with very high Toughness, a good save, or both. If you pick something that increases your strength, on the other hand, you become more effective against the things you previously were ineffective against, and thus more difficult to counter.

But when facing Daemons, everything is t4 or less (except characters), and most have very little or no armor, and they all have a ward save, which doesn't care if its str4 or str6 hitting.

And in the hands of chaos warriors a great weapon changes them from going first or at the same time of most daemons to after all of them. Slaanesh daemons would go first either way, but none of the harder hitting things. And with both chaos warriors and Daemons being elite armies, neither is likely to have large blocks anyway so there is a good chance extra wounds will translate into less attacks back.

[Gruffard]

@winterwind: You mentioned your second caster seem ineffective... Was this because it kept being dispelled or that your main caster used up all the dice? I find the one high, one low level caster a good formation. I tend to use the low level one for buffs pref, and they cast first. Eating possible dispel dice first and often making it so the higher caster can cast with less restrictions. Also good read. wish I could make my reports sound as good.

On a side note of not knowing how to use certain unit. I tried and tried again, but I can't seem to get Black Orc units to earn their keep. Black Orc heroes/lords always do (just put them in a big boyz unit and they don't infight! Yea!) Any seen them used correctly? I only own two boxes of them (20 or so), but no matter if I give them shields or what not do they earn their weight in points.

[DaedalusMkV]

Hello all,
I've recently gotten into Warhammer, after many years playing 40k. I've been working on my army for several months now, and I'm just about ready to start playing. I've got 1000 points worth of Dark Elves assembled and halfway painted, and I feel ready to get a start playing. I'm still a bit iffy on the new edition, though, and I've got no experience with the game, so I decided to come to you guys for advice. First, my list:

Sorceress: Level 2, Tome of Furion, Seal of Ghrond (180) (General)

20 Warriors: Full Command, Shields (152)
16 Crossbowmen: Shields (176)
10 Corsairs: 2xHand Weapon (100)
10 Corsairs: 2xHand Weapon (100)
5 Dark Riders: Repeater Crossbows, Musician (117)

5 Cold One Knights: Full Command (175)

In addition to what's listed, I have access to: 5 Spearmen, 2 Crossbowmen, a Master on a Cold One, 3 Dark Riders and an Assassin.

General information: The Sorceress is supposed to hand with the Warriors, who form the backbone of my line, supported by the Corsairs who keep enemies off their flanks and (ideally) help flank the enemy. The Dark Riders harass enemy units and hunt down War Machine crews and wizards, hopefully eventually circling around the enemy and hitting them in the flanks or rear when they engage my main force. The Crossbowmen shoot down scary things or try to force panic checks, though they can take a charge pretty well. The Knights are my melee murderers, going toe-to-toe with the enemy and winning.

So, did I make any major mistakes with my list? And rather more importantly, is there any Lore better suited to my Sorceress than Dark Magic? Finally, what would be the best way to expand from here? I want to use a unit of Black Guard, eventually, and the Sorc will likely go to level 4 once I get to 1500 points (and the Master will show up, as well), but otherwise I'm wide open to suggestions.

[ZeltArruin]

So this friday is my grudge match against my local store manager. Last week he trounced me with a amazingly strong demon list in a small 1100 point battle. Now afterwards he shook my hand and said straight out "Pretty unfair match mate, since WoC get better the more points the game is played at" so I said "True enough, 2200 point game next week?".. so the games set for a battle royal or some such... So was mucking around with the idea of chosen with 2 hand weapons hopefuly getting either the +1 str or +1 attack roll on Eog. then giving them the banner that does -1 ac.. thoughts?

Additional hand weapons don't work with frenzy, just saying. Both give the 'extra attack' special rule, or how ever it goes, and unless I haven't read the book thoroughly enough (which is admittedly very possible), that rule does not stack.

Of course, if you are going Nurgle or Tzeench and not the Banner of Rage, you're all set anyway.

[Eldan]

What, really? That's just stupid... what are plague monks for, then?

I'll have to reread that.

*reading*

Crap, you are right.

[crazedloon]

they do stack (don't spread viscous lies :smalltongue:) its in the errata

also the extra attack is not all that great I rather wound on 2s every time than get an extra 5 attacks (6 if you run 6 wide 7 if your really are a spender)


also for the Dark elves list I would suggest getting that assassin in the list if you can. Give him a potion of strength and watch him kill some high cost heroes

[ZeltArruin]

they do stack (don't spread viscous lies :smalltongue:) its in the errata

Hadn't checked the errata yet, as I did not think it would exist yet. I am glad that they did resolve that, but I would have houseruled it for games none the less, and I don't play in tourneys, so don't bother bringing that up.

Note: I don't use additional hand weapons and frenzied units in my High Elf and Wood Elf armies.

Edit: Behold, some kind of list (that I hate, like most every 8th ed lists I have made)
2000pt High Elf List
Archmage, Level 4, Silver Wand, 4+ ward save thingy (brb one), Lore of Life

4*10 Archers, Musician, Standard

20 Phoenix Guard, Command, Razor Standard
5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Standard, Ellyrion Banner
5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Standard
7 Shadow Warriors
6 Ellyrion Reavers, Musician, Standard

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

Tactics and strategy might give you insight, but whatever.

[HerbieRAI]

DaedalusMkv: The only thing you may want to watch for is monsters, but only being 1000pts, very few armies would have them (lizards mainly).

As for lores, dark magic is a very good lore, reducing an enemy units WS to 1 is great against an enemy tank, but don't overlook shadow or death.

Death is good for ranged assassinations. Most of its damage spells can affect characters in units and do multipul wounds with no armour.

Shadow is a buff/ hex lore. The level 6 spell usues your leadership as str, so your corsairs and spears could have str 8, and the hexes can decrease about any stat but toughness. I'm not sure I'd recommend this lore with only one mage, because if your not in combat the mage isn't going to do much (but if you add more later on..)

Future additions: One option is a hydra as a supporting unit that can beat light flankers and give your opponent second thoughts when trying to take a flank. Another option is the repeater crossbow to strenghten all the range you already got.

Black guard work very well, and you can also give them the +1 leadership so they'd be 10 ldrshp stubborn immune to psych. A note when using them, they (like all dark elf infantry) fall like flies with 8th edition, although they do dish out the pain, with 3 T and 5+ armour their only defense is their weapon skill.

[Arcanoi]

So I've been batting around a WoC for a little while and here's what I've got.



Heroes

Exalted Hero - 110 Points

Core

Marauders x25 - 200 Points
- Full Command
- Flails
- Light Armor
- Mark of Nurgle

Marauders x25 - 200 Points
- Full Command
- Flails
- Light Armor
- Mark of Nurgle

Marauder Horsemen x7 - 128 Points
- Full Command
- Spears

Special

Chosen x8 - 232 Points
- Full Command
- Halberds
- Mark of Tzeentch

Rare

Chaos Warshrine - 130 Points

Total 1000 Points



Now I've got a couple of questions.

1. Chosen Champions can take magical items, and I'm focused on the item that allows you to modify an EotG roll by 1. Could a Chosen Champion (Who is presumably affected by the unit's before-game EotG roll) use this item to modify EotG rolls taken by the entire Chosen unit? (Notably their before-game roll and rolls from Warshrines)

2. A Chaos Warshrine gives Champions the EotG ability. If they trigger this ability, does the result affect the unit, or only the Champion?

3. If the above answer is no, what happens if a Champion rolls the same result that his unit has already rolled?

[DaedalusMkV]

also for the Dark elves list I would suggest getting that assassin in the list if you can. Give him a potion of strength and watch him kill some high cost heroes

I thought Assassins could only have Gifts of Khaine, while the potion is a magic item? Shadowblade has a Potion, but he also costs over 300 points, which puts him way outside of the range of a 1000 point game. I also have serious doubts that he's worth twice the price of a well-geared normal Assassin.

Herbie: Thanks for the advice. I guess the best way to do things is to give each of those Lores a try and decide for myself, isn't it. What sort of things are good at anti-monster duties? I suspect a well-equipped hero or Assassin could do it, but what other units would be good for such a role?

[Closet_Skeleton]

10 Corsairs: 2xHand Weapon (100)
10 Corsairs: 2xHand Weapon (100)

Put them in one unit maybe?



1. Chosen Champions can take magical items, and I'm focused on the item that allows you to modify an EotG roll by 1. Could a Chosen Champion (Who is presumably affected by the unit's before-game EotG roll) use this item to modify EotG rolls taken by the entire Chosen unit? (Notably their before-game roll and rolls from Warshrines)

I think not.


2. A Chaos Warshrine gives Champions the EotG ability. If they trigger this ability, does the result affect the unit, or only the Champion?

The warshrine's ability hits the whole unit. If the champion kills a character and gets an Eye of the Gods roll it effects only him. He is a seperate character from his unit even though he can't leave it.


3. If the above answer is no, what happens if a Champion rolls the same result that his unit has already rolled?

Whatever normally happens to double results.

[Erloas]

Sorceress: Level 2, Tome of Furion, Seal of Ghrond (180) (General)

20 Warriors: Full Command, Shields (152)
16 Crossbowmen: Shields (176)
10 Corsairs: 2xHand Weapon (100)
10 Corsairs: 2xHand Weapon (100)
5 Dark Riders: Repeater Crossbows, Musician (117)

5 Cold One Knights: Full Command (175)

I would probably switch one, probably both of your corsair units to handbows. My justification is the same as what I said to Winterwind a page ago, you effectively get more attacks for the same points in all but a few specific situations. As it is, both units are a little small to protect a flank in close combat. And with the caster and unit of crossbowmen it seems like your list is set up defensively with the warriors and COKs as counter-units rather then offensive ones.

Personally I don't really like DRs with RXBs, its 20 points that, given how I use DRs I never see any benefit to. And the stuff they are hunting down is better to hit in close combat the majority of the time. Their 18" move is a lot less important when they have a 24" shooting range. As such you can get twice as many attacks for the same price with normal crossbowmen and still cover a good portion of the board.

[Jair Barik]

From my experience of fighting dark riders I think I may have to agree with Erloas here. Generally speaking they want to be stickinh in places where they aren't very well seen in order to get to high priority targets such as warmachines and such like. If they are out in the open they will die to ranged fire or magic so the extra points go wasted.

[DranWork]

Actually the item that lets you modify an EotG roll can be used with the roll before the battle. Its in the FaQ.

[Winterwind]

But when facing Daemons, everything is t4 or less (except characters), and most have very little or no armor, and they all have a ward save, which doesn't care if its str4 or str6 hitting.

And in the hands of chaos warriors a great weapon changes them from going first or at the same time of most daemons to after all of them. Slaanesh daemons would go first either way, but none of the harder hitting things. And with both chaos warriors and Daemons being elite armies, neither is likely to have large blocks anyway so there is a good chance extra wounds will translate into less attacks back.That's true, Daemons might perhaps be one of the few things where two hand weapons could indeed be more effective than the other options. I was thinking more along the lines of being generally effective no matter what the opponent brought. :smallredface:


@winterwind: You mentioned your second caster seem ineffective... Was this because it kept being dispelled or that your main caster used up all the dice? I find the one high, one low level caster a good formation. I tend to use the low level one for buffs pref, and they cast first. Eating possible dispel dice first and often making it so the higher caster can cast with less restrictions.It was because my main caster used up all my dice. I think I tried only once to cast something with the secondary caster at all, and I'm not even sure if the only reason for that wasn't my main caster having failed to get her spell off and thus not being allowed to cast anymore.

It's just that the Lore of Life is almost always so much superior that casting spells from the Lore of Athel Loren very rarely is the better choice.


Also good read. wish I could make my reports sound as good.Thanks a lot! :smallbiggrin:


On a side note of not knowing how to use certain unit. I tried and tried again, but I can't seem to get Black Orc units to earn their keep. Black Orc heroes/lords always do (just put them in a big boyz unit and they don't infight! Yea!) Any seen them used correctly? I only own two boxes of them (20 or so), but no matter if I give them shields or what not do they earn their weight in points.Sorry, cannot say that I have. I've only played against Orcs&Goblins twice so far, and in only one of these games did my opponent bring Black Orcs - and that was one of my very first Warhammer games, in the old edition, with an army half the size of what I use now, with me not really knowing how to use my army properly yet, and I do not even remember that game all that clearly anymore. :smallredface:


In addition to what's listed, I have access to: 5 Spearmen, 2 Crossbowmen, a Master on a Cold One, 3 Dark Riders and an Assassin.Let me put it this way - if I had an army with access to assassins, I would be using as many of them as I could fit in. The Assassins the Skaven players at my local shop use are amongst the most feared and infamous models around, and Dark Elf assassins have even better stats (though I think their equipment options might be slightly inferior); assassins were good before, but have become tremendously much better with the new edition.


Additional hand weapons don't work with frenzy, just saying. Both give the 'extra attack' special rule, or how ever it goes, and unless I haven't read the book thoroughly enough (which is admittedly very possible), that rule does not stack.I'm almost certain the Extra Attack rule says it stacks with itself anyway... though I may be mistaken, and it might also be in the German book only (I've found the German books often include stuff that appears in the English ones in the erratas only. I guess there are some advantages to not being the original, too.).


1. Chosen Champions can take magical items, and I'm focused on the item that allows you to modify an EotG roll by 1. Could a Chosen Champion (Who is presumably affected by the unit's before-game EotG roll) use this item to modify EotG rolls taken by the entire Chosen unit? (Notably their before-game roll and rolls from Warshrines)DranWork already replied to this - this document here might (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1310263a_FAQ_WarriorsofChaos_2010_v11.pdf) be of interest to you. :smallwink:

Yes, you can. It states so very explicitly in there.


2. A Chaos Warshrine gives Champions the EotG ability. If they trigger this ability, does the result affect the unit, or only the Champion?Only the champion.


3. If the above answer is no, what happens if a Champion rolls the same result that his unit has already rolled?Re-roll. Says so in the FAQ, too.

[Arcanoi]

Thanks, @Closet and @Winter. Could I get some commentary on the list, though? It's my first attempt at a real list and I'm not sure if the concept in my head is translating well to points..

[Winterwind]

Could I get some commentary on the list, though? It's my first attempt at a real list and I'm not sure if the concept in my head is translating well to points..I'll give it my best shot. :smallredface:


Exalted Hero - 110 PointsHmm... an utterly unequipped hero isn't going to be nearly as awesome as he could with even only a few points spent to improve him, but being a Warrior of Chaos hero, he's probably going to be lethal enough anyway.

I usually recommend taking a caster as quickly as possible, but I guess you really do not have the points for that, and a low level caster may struggle with getting his spells through anyway.


Core

Marauders x25 - 200 Points
- Full Command
- Flails
- Light Armor
- Mark of Nurgle

Marauders x25 - 200 Points
- Full Command
- Flails
- Light Armor
- Mark of NurgleVery good.
Not sure if they wouldn't be even better with Great Weapons, but definitely a very solid choice.


Marauder Horsemen x7 - 128 Points
- Full Command
- SpearsEwww... spears? Since you are not using shields, couldn't you try to scrap up just those few points necessary to upgrade those to flails, making them that much more effective?

Also, personally I'd drop the champion here. One of the roles this unit might take would be going after enemy characters, especially casters. If you include a champion, he can reduce the incoming amount of attacks by simply issuing a challenge.

I'm also not sure the standard is going to do this unit all that much good, either, since most fights they will get into will likely be fights in which they will assist the infantry blocks, so there will already be a standard there, and I don't think they have all that much of a chance of winning combats against big infantry blocks on their own no matter whether you include a standard or not.


Chosen x8 - 232 Points
- Full Command
- Halberds
- Mark of TzeentchMark of Tzeentch?
The Mark of Tzeentch synergizes wonderfully with shields; as you are not equipping those, I think the Mark of Khorne or Nurgle would probably work better.
Otherwise, nice unit, though a couple more models would certainly be nice.


Chaos Warshrine - 130 PointsWonderful. :smallcool:
At higher point counts, a Mark of Tzeentch would probably be quite nice on this one.


Total 1000 PointsI'd try to go up to 1500 points as soon as possible. Not only that, but I think you could do so quite easily, in fact - just add a lord-level caster, give your hero a few items, and you're already almost there (the rest of the points would probably be best spent beefing up the Chosen).

[Closet_Skeleton]

2000 point skaven list for when I get the models from the new box:

Lords
Ikit Claw

Heroes
Plague Priest
Flail, foul pendant, level 2
135 points

Warlock Engineer
level 2, warp energy condensor, warplock pistol
128 points

Battle Standard bearer
shield
72 points

Core
25 clan rats
spears, warp fire thrower, full command, shields
215 points

25 clan rats
spears, warp fire thrower, full command, shields
215 points

29 clan rats
shields, full command, ratling gun
205.5 points

Special
30 plague monks
full command
235 points

5 Plague Censer Bearers
93 points

5 Poison Wind Globadiers
Bombadier, mortar team
120 points

Rare
Doomwheel
150 points

[Winterwind]

Looks pretty solid.

Three casters seems slightly excessive, since I just don't see how you are going to have enough dice for all of them. You could probably drop one and pretty much never notice a difference, thus saving up points.

Also, do you think Plague Censor Bearers are still viable in such small numbers? I mean, granted, you will still force the opponent to take Toughness tests, but against many things, you will be going second, and you do not have any saves to make you last all that long...

[Eldan]

The 2500 point list I've been playing around with as a hypothetical for the future included a unit of 10, which I think is a good size. Five have a good chance of killing themselves off with their own fumes without doing much.

It also has the advantage that I can buy another 20 plague monks, make half into censer bearers and half into more monks so I have a 30 man unit.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Three casters seems slightly excessive, since I just don't see how you are going to have enough dice for all of them. You could probably drop one and pretty much never notice a difference, thus saving up points.

I might not need dice for all of them. The plague priest is more of a fighty hero who'll cast spells if I need him to. The plague priest and engineer only need one dice a magic phase to cast their signature spells and do something anyway.

If I can squeeze in a staff of channeling or warpstone tokens I will.


Also, do you think Plague Censor Bearers are still viable in such small numbers? I mean, granted, you will still force the opponent to take Toughness tests, but against many things, you will be going second, and you do not have any saves to make you last all that long...

No idea. Probably not. Depends if I hit the flanks or not.

[Gruffard]

I will concur on the 3 mages seems excessive. If you average 7 dice that means you will have on average 2 for each of your hero level mages and 3 for your lord, or as you say 5 for your lord and 1 each for the heroes. Unless having both lores is greatly needed. I think you could uses those points on a reg combat hero and something else.

I don't see other problems/concerns, but then I do not know Skaven very well. G'luck

[Jair Barik]

Plague censers aren't that good anymore. You never want them on a Plague priest anyway and now that you can't rely on tougness tests and flail hits from preventing the enemy striking back they aren't much use for their points and will likely get shot to death or slaughtered in close combat. Potentially useful for running into units that are hero heavy though.

[Eldan]

As it is now, Censer bearers are probably best used similar to cavalry: flanking when you have a big unit already hitting the front, or hunting down small, expensive stuff like elite units and war machines.

[ZeltArruin]

I don't have my rulebook on hand here at work, but I have heard people saying strange things about monstrous mounts. I am well aware that any mount gives at least +1 to the rider's armour save, but I have seen people say things like "putting the noble on a great stag gives him +1 T and W", is this true? I have yet to see anything pointing to it in my BRB, but to be honest, I have not looked very hard.

[Gruffard]

I think with Monsterous Cavalry, you take the better of the wounds and toughneous of the character and mount (Again I think) if I am correct that may account for that. Else no clue. I do not have the base book with me to do an exact check but I believe that is what they are refering too.

[ZeltArruin]

I see. But monstrous mounts do not get that, just monstrous cavalry? Sounds odd to me...If I could get a page to read when I get home from somebody that knows a page, that would be cool.

[HerbieRAI]

I thought Assassins could only have Gifts of Khaine, while the potion is a magic item? Shadowblade has a Potion, but he also costs over 300 points, which puts him way outside of the range of a 1000 point game. I also have serious doubts that he's worth twice the price of a well-geared normal Assassin.

Herbie: Thanks for the advice. I guess the best way to do things is to give each of those Lores a try and decide for myself, isn't it. What sort of things are good at anti-monster duties? I suspect a well-equipped hero or Assassin could do it, but what other units would be good for such a role?

I dont think assassin's can have regular items either.

Your best units against monsters are either bolt throwers or a hydra. The other options are cold one knights on the charge (may be hard to get off against some monsters) or exicutioners. The exicutioners will get hurt pretty bad by anything they go up against due to great weapons and excelent elf defense, so the first 2 are your best bet. Another option is to tool up your assassin with manbane and rune of khaine. But in just a 1000 pt match, your knights should be able to do the trick, or you can charge your hero out of the unit if it is built to solo monsters (lance with +3 str no scaly skin save allowded, then heavy defence).

Erloas: The handbows are a bit iffy to me. This may be because half the players at my store are undead who wont break anyway, but they still seem a little worse option. If a fight is going 4 rounds (2 turns) or more, then the hand weapons are better ( 5 more attacks per turn, so 20 attacks at that point), and the weapon skill will probobly be hitting on 3-4+ instead of 5+. Also, the 5 CC attacks per round will count to combat resolution while the 20 shots wont (could be wrong about this, but I believe I'm right), and since ranks are counted after the fighting, you don't need to do the wounds before the enemy hits your line.

[Gruffard]

Monsters that are used as mounts are seperate and can die without their masters. I think with all other cavalry, you and your mount count as one thing, your wounds, toughness and saves are shared. In most cases the mount and hero toughness are the same so it doesn't matter, but with monsterous mounts they often have the different/better toughness or wounds.

[Erloas]

Erloas: The handbows are a bit iffy to me. This may be because half the players at my store are undead who wont break anyway, but they still seem a little worse option. If a fight is going 4 rounds (2 turns) or more, then the hand weapons are better ( 5 more attacks per turn, so 20 attacks at that point), and the weapon skill will probobly be hitting on 3-4+ instead of 5+. Also, the 5 CC attacks per round will count to combat resolution while the 20 shots wont (could be wrong about this, but I believe I'm right), and since ranks are counted after the fighting, you don't need to do the wounds before the enemy hits your line.

In the case of 15 models I think it could go either way, in 20+ the 2nd handweapon will work out better. With only 10 models there is simply no way a t3, 5+AS unit is going to last 4 rounds of combat, even 2 is pushing it. And as an elf, prolonged combat is not where you are going to want to be, you will rarely win a battle of attrition.

At 10 models they aren't going to be beating units 15+ models large (at least not reliably enough to break them), and they aren't going to stand up to any elite units in close combat. Their role has to be limited to support and protection from smaller, faster units, or from the lower armored elite units, and in those roles the handbows are going to be at their best. Sure stand-and-shoot doesn't count towards combat resolution, but the unit is simply not capable of winning many fights with straight up combat prowess even with 2 handweapons so softening up a target is going to work out just about as well.
And if all you are looking at is the number of attacks, then you may as well take spear warriors. 10 corsairs is 100 points for 15 attacks, 15 DE warriors with spears is 105 points for 15 attacks, higher static combat resolution, same WS/S/T/I/AS and more ablative wounds and both are loosing extra attacks at the same rate at first but the corsairs start loosing 2 to 1 after 5 wounds. Corsairs survive better against shooting, but neither are high priority targets for enemy shooting given what else the DE list can field.
The fact that with 2-handweapons the corsairs really have no real role to fill that can't be done better by some other unit is the reason very few people ever fielded them in the old book, and if they did it was almost entirely because of the model, not the stats.

[Gruffard]

Where to put your Wizzards?

I just got myself the box of Orc Shaman on foot and on boar box. Reason, because of how the magic now works, I want to run an Orc Great Shaman, only problem I been having problems deciding on where to put him.

Been putting him with the Hero BSB with the big lot of boyz, but that doesn't seem to work as well as I want it too.

[Jair Barik]

Why isn't it working as well as it should? What are you doing with the unit and what isn't working? Is it a case that he keeps dying when the unit gets into close combat, that he gets off his spells but the unit never seems to do anything, or something more along the lines of both him and the unit get gunned down by ranged fire before doing much?

Perhaps put him in a unit that doesn't get into close combat that much and exists to buffer him, or who specialises in ranged combat and will naturally be avoiding getting into dangerous situations anyway.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I know an okay orc player who liked to put his shaman on chariots. No idea how well that worked out for him though. I'm going to put mine in with the arrer boyz for now and then experiment a bit. I don't actually have an orc shaman model yet anyway, just three goblin ones.

[Erloas]

The only real problem with putting the shaman in a large unit of boyz (especially with another character) is that the unit wants to be in combat as quickly as possible, but the shaman doesn't want to be.

Depending on your opponent, and how likely they are to be able to pick off the character, just leaving it on its own might work well. Most of the spells have pretty good range. Or keep it with a smaller support unit, or a cheap unit designed just to protect the shaman, such as a base 10 orc unit, possibly archers.

[HerbieRAI]

Played a game against vampire counts last night and thought I'd post a report. My army was the same as listed before (i dont have my book so the item nams aren't there:


lvl 4 sorceress shadow
+1 channeling staff

lvl 2 sorceress dark
+1 power dice

hag
bsb - asf banner
5+ ward save

hag (general)
cauldern of blood

assassin
rune of khaine
manbane

20 corsairs full command
20 corsairs full command
20 spearmen full command

15 black guard no musician
15 exicutioners full command
cold one chariot

bolt thrower
hydra



He was trying different heros than he normally does, so he was at a slight disadvantage. His army (as far as I know)


1 lord vampire, know all spells, lvl 4 caster

2 hero vampires, one with 2 extra power dice, one with eternal hatred

1 wight lord bsb

40 ghouls in a horde (with lord and bsb)
30 skeletons with spears (with hatred vampire)
5 fell bats
6 tomb guard (with power die vampire)
7 etheral guys with a banshee (can't remember unit name)
black coach



deployment:



from my left to right, i had my chariot, one corsair unit, spearmen with lvl 2 mage, exicutioners with ASF bsb, couldern behind them, then other corsairs, bolt thrower, black guard, and hydra on my left. My bolt thrower was up in a tower, and my chariot was sparated by a large piece of difficult ground.

On his side (still my left to right) Fell bats, banshee unit, tomb guard, ghoul hord behind those 2 units, then skeletons and black coach on the very flank. He had a forest between his bats and main force which caused them and my chariot to do a dance the whole game, and a pond between the grave gaurd and skeletons. I put my assassin in with the black gaurd to help deal with the black coach.



He got first turn, and moved forward with all his units, but kept his bats out of sight of my chariot. He rolled low for magic and his black coach only sucked one of his power dice. He then casted winds of undeath and got 6 wounds on me. He put the spirit hosts at an angle to try and get my black guard in combat.

During my turn, I charged my corsairs into the newly created spirit hosts flank, and moved forward with all other guys. I did angle my other corsairs to face the bats incase they charged. I used my cauldern to buff the corsairs that charged since I needed every one to live to kill the hosts. During magic i rolled low and his black coach sucked another die up. My magic was completely shut down. He failed to wound my corsairs with the spirit host and i killed them through combat resolution, (charge, 3 ranks, flank, standard) then overran out of sight of the tomb gurad

His turn 2, he charged my exicutioners with his tomb guard, my hydra with the skeletons, and my spearmen with the banshee dudes. I fled with the spearmen and was ran down, held elsewhere. He rolled low for magic again and he didn't suck any dice, but he did get another winds of undeath off. He only got 3 wounds this time and put it behind hte corsairs that had destroyed the other unit. he also summend 5 zombies behind my black guard. During the combat with the hydra, I killed his vampire, then used my breath and stomp to kill a good number of skellies. He did manage to kill one of the beastmasters though, and there were still half the skellies there after combat resolution. The vampire in the tomb guard challenged and I accepted with the unit champion. The vampire one with an overkill, but my unit killed every last tomb guard and the vamp died due to combat resolution.

My turn 2, I charged my black guard at the chariot and fail by a good bit, my exicutioners charge the hord of ghouls and get the +1 A buff from the cauldren. Elsewhere I move my chariot in a dance again, reform my corsairs to look at the banshee, reform the other corsairs to see the new host behind them. In magic, I roll a grand total of 4, and give none to the black coach. Then I cast pit of shades and kill the thing. This rose a question I'll ask at the end, but it wouldn't have changed the outcome since the chariot didn't have Magic resistance yet. In shooting I start hurting the bats with my bolt thrower (it had shot at the black coach before and failed to wound). In combat, the skellies kill the other handler, but I pass my monster reaction. I still lose the combat and run. Although I get away, he charges me again next turn and the hydra is off the board. He challenges with his lord vampire and I accept with my BSB. In combat I do 2 wounds to him and only recieve 1. This was a big flaw for him because He forgot he didn't tool out his vamp for combat. I get a killing blow on the bsb (it wasn't the regen banner like I thought it was), and kill a few ghouls. His ghouls kill about 6 of my exicutioners, and I still win combat by a few.

On his turn three he charges his host into my corsairs, zombies into the back of my black guard. He tries to cast the spell that gives him ASF, and rolls a 1, so can't cast any other spells. In combat, my bsb finishes his vampire lord, and everything starts to crumble. The zombies are gone (due to black gaurd, not crumble), so is the spirit host. The banshees and bats take a few wounds each.

On my turn three i charge a unit of corsairs into his ghouls, but hte game is already over. With no characters left and the highest leadership of 3, the only unit that would have survived the crumbling where the banshees. I got them between the black guard and corsairs, and shadow hexed them to 1 str (so 3 with their great weapons).

The biggest thing I realized is that I have nothing but magic missles to deal with etherial creatures. I got real lucky he didn't know what his characters could do, and that we rolled low for power dice in the first 2 turns. The question we ran into. Magic resistance gives/ improves a ward save against magic damage. Pit of shades is a direct damage spell, but does an instant kill with no saves of any kind allowed. If he had MR when I had gotten the spell off, would he have gotten the ward save, or is MR that nerfed now?

[crazedloon]

MR only works against things which allow saves

[ZeltArruin]

That is an odd Vampire list, especially the unit of 6 Grave Guard. How is that supposed to accomplish anything? I won't comment on his odd characters, as you said he was trying stuff out.

[Erloas]

I must be missing something, but I don't see how that VC list is 2400 points. It seems like 200-300 points are missing.

You got really luck with your BSB beating the vampire lord, since neither of you could have been tooled up for combat. (though can she take gifts of Khaine...? I know she can't take normal magic item upgrades with a magic standard). But the Lord has the advantage of WS, W, A, Str, and T in that fight, the only advantage the hag has is I.

Good job though, sounds like a fairly decisive victory.

[Erloas]

After checking my VC book, even assuming full point usage for the vampires' powers and items, it seems at least 100 points short.



Having finally got the rulebook I've been reading through it... and its still hard to completely identify all of the changes. The hardest part is realizing what was simply removed.
One thing I don't remember hearing about is that cavalry can only ever have 2 models attacking a war machine. The restrictions on the number of attackers on war machines makes dwarf war machines all the harder to kill.
Oh, and even negating ranks does not remove steadfast, I don't think that was ever clear in the rumors either.
And someone said you can't get the impact hits from ogres and minotaurs and the stomp attack... but I don't see that at all. Impact Hits say you only ever get one impact attack, but nothing at all in the Stomp rules even hints at it being an impact attack, so unless there is some FAQ about it, it seems to me that they can use both.
And I know there was one other rule that stood out as not getting any attention in the rumors... but I can't think of what it was right now.

edit: one thing that helps skirmishers that doesn't seem to be mentioned much is that not only are they always steadfast in forests (as are characters on foot), but that rank-and-file units can never be steadfast when even partially in a forest. So thats something that helps the WEs quite a bit.

[Eldan]

At least in all the games I had against ogres, we did indeed use both attacks.

[ZeltArruin]

Oh, and even negating ranks does not remove steadfast, I don't think that was ever clear in the rumors either.

I found that one really odd, actually, the whole steadfast/stepup thing really bothers me. Maybe it's because I play elves in paper armour.

[Ninja Chocobo]

one thing that helps skirmishers that doesn't seem to be mentioned much is that not only are they always steadfast in forests (as are characters on foot), but that rank-and-file units can never be steadfast when even partially in a forest. So thats something that helps the WEs quite a bit.

Not really. Considering how big "loose formation" makes your unit, a unit of like 15 Skirmishers simply won't fit in a forest, and they need to be wholly within to be steadfast.

[Erloas]

I don't think it says they have to be entirely inside a forest to be steadfast, though I would have to go back and check it again to make sure. On most tables forests also don't really have a well defined edge to them anyway. I would assume that as long as the majority is in they would count. And as soon as you get into combat (when steadfast actually counts) you rank up anyway and then take up a much smaller footprint compared to the loose formation.
But to me the more important thing is that rank-and-file units loose steadfast in forests even if just a very small part of the unit is in the forest, it gives WEs a lot more options for being able to reliably break an opponent in close combat.

[Jair Barik]

I forsee tree singing forests into important close combats to be a key part of wood elf tactics now. Though the randomly generated forests could prove dangerous to this....

Perhaps taking some small units of giant eagles to quickly fly through the various forests and identify them would be a useful WE asset?

[Tehnar]

Aren't wood elves immune to negative forest effects? Didnt read their errata, but I think someone mentioned them.

[Jair Barik]

I mentioned that I had read the ability 'forest strider' was universal to elves now but that doesn't actually negate negative effects it turns out. Wood be really cool if it did though.

[Ninja Chocobo]

I forsee tree singing forests into important close combats to be a key part of wood elf tactics now.

You can't Tree Sing a forest into anything. Stops as soon as it contacts an enemy unit.
Also d3+1" is not many ".

[Closet_Skeleton]

I'm playing a 3000 point 7th ed game with my Empire against my brother's wood elves.

Turn 1 some way watchers scout into the woods behind each of my flanks. One of them I manage to kill by turning round my outriders and then have my wizard lord cast unseen lurker to charge them into the waywatchers and butcher them. The other unit still isn't dead despite my having 25 halberdiers led by a warrior priest right near them and they killed my wizard before he could unseen lurker the halberdiers into them.

He had a hero running around on his own who tried to help the waywatchers. He got charged by the warrior priest and atomised by soulfire.

His eternal guard got hit by three turns of helblaster volley gun fire and several salvos of handguns, so by the time they got to charge my handgunners there was only the command group and the noble left. A handgunner managed to kill the musician, their champion failed to wound my marksman in the challange and I had three handgunners left so I wouldn't autobreak from fear and was in the range of my battle standard, so my handgunners didn't break. Next turn my marksman managed to survive against the enemy champion again, but all his friends died and he auto-broke, got run down and let him over run into my warmachines.

I managed some quite good rolls with my crossbowmen on turn 1, killing half a 12 strong glade guard unit.

I had Karl Franz, a warrior priest and Ludwig Scharzhelm in a 24 strong swordsman unit. The swordsmen ended up half dead and weren't in charge range, but a unit of general lead dryads were in charge range of them, so Karl Franz and the warrior priest charged out of the unit to stop the dryads. The warrior priest managed to kill the enemy general (he gave both his lord choices a dodgy specialisation so a hero had to be his general) but got killed in return by a branchwraith, while karl Franz killed four dryads and broke the unit. Franz pursued into some scouts. Next turn the dyrads rallied only for Karl Franz to kill the scouts and over ru into the dyrads again.

My helstorm rocket battery managed to kill a bunch of glade guard and a few dyrads. Its last act before dying however was to kill 70% of my greatsword's halberdier detatchment.

Currently I have 11 crossbowmen and 7 outriders (the remains of 2 squads) facing off 2 units of glade guard. The hill that started out with 20 handgunners, a helblaster and a helstorm now just has 8 handgunners facing down a noble and an eternal guard standard bearer. My greatswords are down to half strength and flanked by those pesky wardancers. My halberdiers are finally ready to charge those darn waywatchers who have been skipping around them all game and Karl Franz is on his own up against half a unit of dyrads with a branchwraith and a wizard in it. My poor swordsmen and Ludwig are on a ford looking at three gladeguard and an annoying wood elf lord who can apparently loose 5 armour ignoring arrows around and move 9 inches.

I built a mostly ranged and infantry army because last time I fought my brother's wood elves at 3000 points my knights and Karl Franz on deathclaw won the day. I would have ditched Karl Franz entirely instead of just downgrading him to a horse, but my army is themed around special characters so it doesn't make much sense not to use them at 3000 points (at 2000 points I can say that this is just the rearguard and the special characters are somewhere else) and I wasn't going to use Kurt Helbolg in a knight free army.

[IdleMuse]

Hey guys! I just obtained a copy of the new main rulebook. I'm still in the ponder-army-lists stage of my King in Yellow inspired Skaven army, and was wondering what you guys thought of all the new generic magic items, specifically the Book of Ashur. Any cool must-haves in there?

[Science Officer]

King in Yellow inspired Skaven army

That sounds incredibly awesome. Care to elaborate on how it works?

[Cheesegear]

Any cool must-haves in there?

The banner that causes Terror for 50 points.

[crazedloon]

The banner that causes Terror for 50 points.

nope not worth it IMHO

Terror is sooo bad know it is not worth 50 points and pretty much any of the other banners are better for the points.

Terror is only different from fear on the charge and even then more often than not a unit will make the check if they are within 12" of the general and/or the BSB they will pass the test. Than Fear (and terror) sucks because it no longer auto break units so not worth the 50 points

edit: This is all from my experience with Vamp counts who have the extras points built in and am hating the change to fear/terror

[Eldan]

I like the banner which gives +1 movement speed. M6 Skaven are sweet.

[IdleMuse]

That sounds incredibly awesome. Care to elaborate on how it works?

Mysterious old man dressed in yellow has a warband of fairly intelligent Skaven plague monks. Arrives at Skaven settlement, puts on a play (something the resident Skaven have never before seen), which has a peculiar and horrific grasp over them. They begin to obsess, have nightmares, and pretty soon, the King in Yellow has his own clan.

It's not immensely large or varied, since I'm trying to stick within 1500pts, but I do have an idea for a Hell Pit Abomination phys-repped as sliding black tentacles. His friends call him Hastur.

Bannerwise, I am definitely having the Plague Banner on my Plague Monk unit, but I've got a Stormvermin unit as well, with about 35pts spare for a banner. I did have the Dripping Death one, until I realised it was a bit rubbish.

Thanks for the info on the change to Terror; It's a long read to get through the whole of the book and still notice the differences, so it's good to be reminded of the salient points.

[Erloas]

Thanks for the info on the change to Terror; It's a long read to get through the whole of the book and still notice the differences, so it's good to be reminded of the salient points.

Well on GW's articles they did one (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440002a&categoryId=500004&section=&aId=12400019a) on the basics of the changes to the rules direct more towards experienced players. I'm not sure if it got everything, but it hits all of the main points. The 3rd part has a list of easy to miss rules, included rules that were simply removed, because those are the hardest to pick up because many you just assumed you missed, they didn't change so you didn't read them for instance, in the new rules as opposed to them being deleted.

As for the new items, most of them have similar variations in most rulebooks anyway, I think only a few armies will get access to really new sorts of items. There are a few really cheap magic items too, which aren't great but are cheap enough to find uses, like some of the potions, or the really cheap weapons to give a character magic attacks in low point games or with low cost characters.
A lot of people seem to be taking the channeling staff, but I don't really know if it is worth it. Statistically speaking its only going to get you 1 more power dice per game and you have no control over when you get it, but it is a fairly cheap item at least and in terms of point comparison it is the same cost as a warpstone token which also gives a single power dice, with less reliability as to when but no negative chance for using it.

[Eldan]

Okay. Store tournament today (which I lost horribly, finishing 9th out of 10). However, I saw the coolest model ever.

Someone took a Blood Island Warlord (http://www.brueckenkopf-online.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/GW_Blood-Island-Warlord.jpg) and a Penitent Engine (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1251783_99110108053_INQPntntEngnmain_445x319.jpg) and combined them, together with a lot of skaven bits and other machinery.

The result? A warlord in a magipunk mech, counting as riding on a rat ogre.

[IdleMuse]

The 3rd part has a list of easy to miss rules

That's quite a good article. I didn't read it when 8th came out, mostly because I could in no way afford to play, but now I have the book...

I love the changes to the Musician, makes me feel much better about them.

Flaming attacks causing fear in cavalry is nice, might make the new 'banner of flaming attacks' worthwhile...

The limit of one dispel scroll is interesting, gone are the days of scroll caddies I suppose.


Okay. Store tournament today (which I lost horribly, finishing 9th out of 10). However, I saw the coolest model ever.
...

The result? A warlord in a magipunk mech, counting as riding on a rat ogre.

Okay, I now want to add a lot more Skryre to my army, just to use 40k conversions into steampunk...

[Eldan]

That was exactly what I thought. I wanted to get a warlord and a mech just to build something like it as well.

[Eldan]

I got the special "overkill award", it seems, for blasting a dwarf king with only one wound left with 14 shots from a ratling gun.

Other nice successes I had: a single elite rat ogre eating a chaos spawn for breakfast, a flame thrower killing 14 chaos barbarians with flails in one shot and thereby actually being worth it's points.

I also think I saw one of the scariest units ever: 16 ogres, including a mage constantly using all the power-up spells on them. Ogres with increased toughness and strength and regeneration? Scary.

[Winterwind]

Sorry for replying to some posts from so far back - I was gone for most of last week. :smallredface:


Having finally got the rulebook I've been reading through it... and its still hard to completely identify all of the changes. The hardest part is realizing what was simply removed.My favourite one when it comes to that is "Fast Cavalry doesn't get rank bonus". Because it does now.

And "you have to choose between ward save and regeneration" doesn't get mentioned too often, either.

One that does get mentioned often enough on the Internet but sadly hasn't yet been realized by the people at my shop is "you have to pick your lores as part of your army list". They all pick their lores depending on what they are facing instead. :smallfrown:


edit: one thing that helps skirmishers that doesn't seem to be mentioned much is that not only are they always steadfast in forests (as are characters on foot), but that rank-and-file units can never be steadfast when even partially in a forest. So thats something that helps the WEs quite a bit.The problem with that is that it requires the Wood Elf player to give up their most important advantage - mobility. Staying in forests and leaving the initiative to the opponent, letting them decide when to charge in, is not exactly a desirable state for Wood Elves most of the time.


I also think I saw one of the scariest units ever: 16 ogres, including a mage constantly using all the power-up spells on them. Ogres with increased toughness and strength and regeneration? Scary.Unless you happen to be using Shadow or Death magic and can cast one of the "initiative-test or death" spells on them. :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

Sadly, I didn't get that one spell. I the one which is a flame attack, so at least worked around regeneration, but it didn't help much. They reached my line without a single one of them dying, despite ratling and flamethrower-fire and bombardment by spells. He also had a unit of 50 gnoblars, but those were easy.

[Winterwind]

Couldn't your Grey Seer just dispell those spells? I admit dealing with complexity 7 stays-in-game spells is much easier for me thanks to the Wand of the Wych Elm, but even without it I'd think shutting down the most troublesome spells shouldn't be too difficult for a level 4 caster?

[Eldan]

Probably, but it was a 1000 point tournament, and I only packed a level 2 warlock. Since we also consistently only had five or six energy dice (and about half as many dispel dice) every turn, I couldn't dispel them as fast as he recast them.

Especially since, apparently, ogre magic is all 3+ to cast, but 7+ to dispel. Annoying.

[Winterwind]

Probably, but it was a 1000 point tournament, and I only packed a level 2 warlock. Since we also consistently only had five or six energy dice (and about half as many dispel dice) every turn, I couldn't dispel them as fast as he recast them.Ah, I see.

Yeah... that's a nasty situation to be in, for sure. :smallfrown:


Especially since, apparently, ogre magic is all 3+ to cast, but 7+ to dispel. Annoying.Basically, yes. It's 3+ for when it is cast the first time in a turn, 6+ if it's cast a second time in the same turn, 9+ for the third time, etc. (all Butchers know all Gut Magic spells).

To dispel it when it is cast you have to roll equal to what the Ogre player rolled (plus caster/dispeller levels, of course); it's 7 to dispel it in later turns.

Also, Ogres had that "can still cast without interrupting the Stay-In-Play spell"-thing going on even before 8th edition.

So, yes, Ogre Gut Magic is nasty and always was nasty, too.

To make up for it, they use a special Miscast (now Control Loss) table that, I think, is overall even nastier than the 8th edition Control Loss table, and they can only take their lord-level caster if they already have taken at least one of their lord-level fighters (which they usually will want to do anyway though).

And, Ogres probably need such powerful magic anyway. If you consider how weak ogres actually are (an Ogre Bull may be individually strong, but if you consider it costs 35 points? I just don't see it winning against three Dryads, or six Swordsmen, or nine Clan Rats...).

[Eldan]

Well, it was, as as I said, 1000 points. He only had one unit of 16 ogres, so he could just continually cast three or so power-up spells on them every turn. Faster than I could dispel them, especially since I also tried to blast them before they got to me. And well, I charged them with two units of clanrats in the front and a unit of stormvermin (all 20 strong) in the flank, and they held and killed everyone once they reached me.

[Winterwind]

Ooof... that sounds bad. :smallfrown:

Even Skryre warmachinery didn't stop them? Warpflame Throwers and such? I'd think they should be pretty awesome at killing Ogres...

[crazedloon]

Well, it was, as as I said, 1000 points. He only had one unit of 16 ogres,

hopefully that was not the only thing he had becuase you need 3 non character units minimum to make an army :smallwink:

[Eldan]

Well, he also had a small unit of gnoblar skirmishers, eight I think, and fifty other gnoblars. But those weren't a problem. The sixteen though, they steamrollered all over my army. Not even the flamethrower did much, before it was blasted away.

I think I killed one and wounded another before they reached me. Broke all the gnoblars, though, before they even came close. But that wasn't difficult. Thirteen giant rats against 8 gnoblars was pretty quick, even after two rounds of shooting from them.

[Lansier]

I'd like some feedback on my WoC list for an upcoming 1250 point tournament.

Lords:
Sorceror Lord
Lv. 4
Lore of Heavens
Blood of Tzeentch

300 points

Heroes:
Exalted Hero
Battle Standard
Stream of Corruption
Mark of Tzeentch
Collar of Khorne
Shield

195 points

Core:
Chaos Warriors x 14
Mark of Tzeentch
Shields
Full Command

274 points

Chaos Warriors x 14
Mark of Tzeentch
Shields
Full Command

274 points

Rare:
Hellcannon

205 points

Total: 1248 points

[Winterwind]

Looks good to me, if a bit immobile.

I'm away from my army book right now, and I do not remember if Stream of Corruption was one-use or not. If it wasn't, it's probably not worth it anymore, since its point costs will likely be adjusted to it being usable all the time, but breath weapons are automatically one-use-only now.

I'd consider putting the Hero on a Disk of Tzeentch, and perhaps replacing the Collar of Khorne with the Golden Eye of Tzeentch. He would make a pretty good hunter of non-frontline units then.

[Erloas]

I think this trend of lord level casters in lower point games is really going to be a problem. The only obvious downside is having almost a quarter of your points tied up in a single model that can kill themselves without too much difficulty. Chance of Loss of Control/Irresistible Force is 2.8% on 2d6, 7.4% on 3d6, 12% on 4d6*, 15.1% on 5d6*, 16.4% on 6d6*

*I think these are right, I used Wolframalpha's mathematical search to find the probability of doubles/triples/etc combined them, then figured for 6s only. Which I think works fine, and matches what I did with 2d6 and 3d6, but I didn't run the numbers myself.

Given the average of 7 dice a round, and the dice needed to reliably cast most spells from the new lores (since rolling too low ends your magic phase) you are going to average between about 15-20% chance of miscasting a round, so probably once a game.

The only real weakness of the list is a complete lack of speed. Chaos Warriors should be able to close without too high of casualties, but they will still take heavy losses against war machines, shooting and magic. And in all of those cases it is pretty much left up to just the sorcerer to protect the rest of the army. With the chance of miscast, or simply having a failed spell end your magic phase, that could be a problem. And the caster being in the middle of a large block of expensive troops means any miscast is going to hurt a lot, its not like you would be killing 5 point models when you do have a problem.
I think the list will do fine against other combat oriented lists, but I think it will struggle against ranged heavy lists.
I don't know the exacts of the hellcannon, and it might help a lot, but I'm not sure if it would be better then 2 units of 5 or 1 unit of 10 marauder horsemen.

[Eldan]

On the subject of casters blowing themselves up: that ogre guy I played against had a magic item. "Skull plate" or something, if that's the correct translation. In addition to having a loss of control on a double six, you also have one on a double 1 or double 2 when casting on that unit. Nasty. Cost me my warlock.

[Gruffard]

Thanks all for the suggestions on where to post my Orc Shaman. (Was busy end of last week).

@Erloas:I tend not to run a lord level shaman until 1500-1750, combined with the fact that my wizards cost less then normal makes it so at that level I can run both a lord level wizard and the lord general within 25% of my army limit.

But IMO, the lord level wizard actually makes it so you do not need to roll as many dice to get your spells off, and I tend to cast the easier stuff first to drain the enemy dispel pool before doing the key spell. But then again I run Big and Little Waaagh which have 3 double digit cost spells combined...

On other News. Here is an attempt at an all comers balanced decent at all the pitched battle scenarios list:
Orc Big Tik-taks, uh... Orc Big Tak-Tiks! ((1750 List))

Lords: 433
Za Boss Zograd = 208
Black Orc WarBoss on Boar, Bigged's Kickin' Boots, HA, shield
General w/ Ta Tuff Tusks

Wizzard Drak = 225
Orc Great Shaman, lvl 4, Channeling staff
With, dunno.

Heroes: 209
Boss Grokk = 114
Black Orc Big Boss BSB, HA
w/ Da Boyz

Lil' Grongu = 95
N Goblin Shaman, Lvl 2, Magic Shrooms
w/ Lil' Ones

Core: 604
Da Boyz = 204
Orc Boyz x 29, Full Command w/ Shields

Lil' Ones = 164
N Goblins x 23, Full Command, Fanatics x3

Stikk Flingas = 80
Orc Arrer Boyz x10, Boss, Musician

Fast Dogz = 156
Goblin Wolf Riders x 12, w/S Bows

Special: 432
Ta Tuff Tusks = 347
Orc Big 'Uns Boar Boyz x11, Boss

Orc Chariot w/ Xtra Crew = 85

Rare: 70
Golbin Spear Chukka x 2 = 70
Feed back welcomed.

[Erloas]

One thing to keep in mind is that even with a level 4 caster, you really should be rolling 2 dice most of the time, no matter what the spell cost is. Because a total roll of 2 or less ends the attempts that wizard can make that turn for casting. Even if the casting cost is only 5 (not uncommon) and you have a level 4, you still have to roll at least a 3 or you fail to cast the spell. And on a single die that is a 33% chance. A chance worth taking if it is the last spell you cast with that wizard, but its a dangerous way to try and use up your opponents dispel dice.

[Gruffard]

True, but Even if I have 6 spells, I only expect 3-4 a turn, but the extra levels allow me to reliably expect 3-4 spells to be safely go off before dispel. Of course your talking to a player who used to run 2-3 wizards in 1250~1500 last edition (one 2nd level two 1sts)

[Closet_Skeleton]

Big Un Boar Boyz are over priced to the point of unusability. For 30 points you get a guy who's slightly weaker (t4 over t3 isn't worth a 3+ armour save compared to a 1+ one, and you have -1 strength on the charge [okay, its transfered to your mount, who cares] and -1 leadership out of the deal) than a 26 point empire inner circle knight (you save 2 points on having cheaper command groups, but its not enough).

For the points of 11 Big Un Boar Boyz 330 you could have 15 normal ones. That's three ranks of cavalry.

I'd rather have savage orc boar boyz with just the spear and shield upgrades. Then use the point differance between them and the big uns to get nog's banner of butchery. If they're 6 by 2 you get 43 S4 attacks on the turn you charge and use the banner, which they can reroll with bash'em lads if you're lucky.

I don't honestly think 23 night goblins is going to do anything. Fanatics aren't realiable enough to have a unit that only works as a delivery system for them.

I'm not a fan of black orc big bosses killing my own men either. I'd rather fail an animosity test half the time. With the nerf to charging, orcish initiative and choppas working in the first round no matter who charges sitting around isn't so bad. I only take black orc characters if I want the heavy armour option to stack with other armour save boosts.

[Winterwind]

Given the average of 7 dice a round, and the dice needed to reliably cast most spells from the new lores (since rolling too low ends your magic phase) you are going to average between about 15-20% chance of miscasting a round, so probably once a game.Keep in mind though that a miscast is not necessarily all that dangerous. Most results are painful, but perfectly bearable; it's only a few that are truly fatal.

Still, for a Warriors of Chaos player it might always be a good idea to bring an Infernal Puppet - that way, you can increase the probability that if you suffer a loss of control, it will be one of the less dangerous results tremendously.


I don't know the exacts of the hellcannon, and it might help a lot, but I'm not sure if it would be better then 2 units of 5 or 1 unit of 10 marauder horsemen.I think it would. It really is quite powerful.


On the subject of casters blowing themselves up: that ogre guy I played against had a magic item. "Skull plate" or something, if that's the correct translation. In addition to having a loss of control on a double six, you also have one on a double 1 or double 2 when casting on that unit. Nasty. Cost me my warlock.Note that this item makes you roll on the Ogre loss of control table, not the regular one.

Though there is a decent chance for that to actually be even worse...

[Tehnar]

@Gruffard: I would try to fit in a Mork Spirit Totem and a Staff of Sneaky stealing in your list. I've found it more then makes up its points.

I prefer to keep my Black Orc characters with large blocks of cheap infantry. That way a bad animosity roll kills maybe 1-2 normal orcs or 2-3 gobbos. Which is pretty acceptable. Killing off 1-2 Big 'Uns Boar boys per bad rolls is pretty dangerous, as you are knocking off a 30+ point model.

Also Im generally not a fan of Orc calvary. I find that chariots do a much better job at killing stuff then 8th edition boar boys.

I suggest you stick bows on your NG. That way they can do some shooting (and killin'). Also nets are great, though I prefer to keep nets on a larger block of gobbos.



On a side note I've been trying to find out which weapon I will equip on my assasin goblin warboss. He will be most likely on a wolf or spider (probably within a unit of wolf/spider riders). He will also have a amulet of protectyness
and a Triksy Trinket, and his job will be to challenge enemy characters. Anyone have a idea what can really work? One hit wunda seems the obvious choice, but are there better options?

[Lansier]

I prefer the blood of Tzeentch over the infernal pupet, it's more expensive but being able to re-roll one casting die/turn is more flexible as it can prevent a miscast as well as loss of concentration.

Making the axalted hero a warmachine/wizard hunter might be a good idea how does this look for a build:

Exalted Hero
Disc of Tzeentch
Mark of Tzeentch
Sword of Swift Slaying
Charmed shield
Dragonbane gem
Potion of foolhardiness

Total: 180 points

Still not sure about the weapon, ASF is nice, especially on a model with Init 6 (so most likely re-roll failed to hit), but maybe a higher number of attacks would be better.

[Gruffard]

Okay no one likes the big orc boyz unit, Hmm... I wanted a nice big slug hammer unit, and although I could do that with multiple chariots, the only other chariot I own right now is a gobbie one...

@Closet_Skeleton: Your suggestion of Savage orc boyz might work. Look into that. If you wouldn't put the put the black orc General there, where would you? (I like having the General in a Calv unit to move him to where his leadership needs to be unit the hitting is needed.)

As for the NG, giving them bows seems good until you realize its s. bows and which means you need to be in charge threat distance to use it half the time. I find the threat of fanatics, and the positioning of the N.Goblins to the General's Da Boyz unit's flank can guard and control the map very well. Expensive units like calv don't charge or have to go the long way round to attack his flank. and right now I don't want a big mob of N. Golbins, although I might add one if I drop the Orc Boyz.


On a side note I've been trying to find out which weapon I will equip on my assasin goblin warboss. He will be most likely on a wolf or spider (probably within a unit of wolf/spider riders). He will also have a amulet of protectyness and a Triksy Trinket, and his job will be to challenge enemy characters. Anyone have a idea what can really work? One hit wunda seems the obvious choice, but are there better options?

I find for run around a kill model X things, the Gold Sigal Sword (gives you init 10) from the common magic items is a good start. Attacking before anyone short of ASF is useful. One hit wonder is not bad if you have the points, but the Gold Sigal sword is less then half the price and still good (plus it works all rounds).

Thanks for the feedback I think I will retool and repost.

[Erloas]

As for the NG, giving them bows seems good until you realize its s. bows and which means you need to be in charge threat distance to use it half the time. I find the threat of fanatics, and the positioning of the N.Goblins to the General's Da Boyz unit's flank can guard and control the map very well.

Well it generally gives the goblins a single round of shooting, which can be enough, especially against lighter units usually used to force fanatics out of the unit. It can also be nice to kill said fanatics when they aren't going where you want them to. And even some ranged threat will force your opponent to deal with the unit and their fanatics, where as with spears the opponent can generally avoid the unit until there is no good place to release the fanatics too (such as many of their units are engaged with yours). And goblins aren't loosing much by getting rid of spears in close combat, even 1-2 wounds from bows is probably going to be all the more you would see from 5 more attacks in close combat.

[Gruffard]

So would you play the min 20 N Gobbies as 5*4 or 2*10?

[Tehnar]

NG archers are good because they are cheaper then spear NGs, have the same survivability, and can do more damage. They also create a psychological charge me please effect. You want units to charge your fanatic infested goblins.

Theoretically if someone charges you can have stand and shoot, and if the dice gods favor you the charging unit ends up on the fanatics. Thats pretty killy.

If you are going to go with only 20 goblins, I would keep them in 5x4 formation. Even if they are archers they lose only 6 attacks but gain much more maneuverability and maybe steadfast against some smaller troops. But with the new reform rules, move them around as the situation demands it.

[Winterwind]

If you are going to go with only 20 goblins, I would keep them in 5x4 formation. Even if they are archers they lose only 6 attacks but gain much more maneuverability and maybe steadfast against some smaller troops. But with the new reform rules, move them around as the situation demands it.The problem is, if you try to reform via musician and fail your Ld test, you will be unable to shoot in that turn - especially bad since the situation when you will want to reform will likely be one where you will want to shoot the most desperately...

EDIT: Oh, and my vote actually goes to 6x3 (plus 2 in the fourth rank). It's still enough for you to have a good chance to stay steadfast against smaller units, gives you (very slightly) more shots, and also slightly more attacks in close combat.

[Gruffard]

Like the six wide idea Winterwind. Think I will run with something like that.

I will need to figure out what to do with the boar boyz, and or their points.

[Tehnar]

Here are some lord builds I've been toying around with. Suggestions are welcome.

Defensive Black Orc Warboss 223 points
Shield
Armor of Glittering Scales
Effigy of Mork
Martog's Best Basha

Very survivable in close combat. Only WS9 and 10 units hit him on 5s and 6s, all others need 6s to hit. Mork'll fix it on unit attacking him makes him pretty much invularble against everything. Thinking of adding a boar and the Other Trickster shard to make him a bit more offensive with a better save vs shooting.

Offensive Goblin Warboss 154 points
Tricksy Trinket
Amulet of Protectyness
One Hit Wunda
Light Armor
Shield
Wolf

Probably with a wolf rider's unit, basically a character hunter. Will challenge to protect himself from R&F attacks. I wonder if he counts as fast calvary (the rules are a bit hazy on that).

[Gruffard]

On the Goblin counting as fast Calv, I will vote no. (sucks but I think that is correct decision).

Curious on what Armor of Glittering Scales is, (Don't have the base rulebook on me too heavy, and its not in the army book), but since there is more then a few ways to get around armour saves, unless that armour gives you a ward save you might want to look into it. But he looks solid otherwise.

[Winterwind]

I wonder if he counts as fast calvary (the rules are a bit hazy on that).Do Wolves themselves have the Fast Cavalry rule? If so, he does, too. If it's just Wolf-Riders that do, he does not. (Away from army book, so cannot look it up myself).

I know that for Wood Elves, previously characters put on Elven Steeds did not count as Fast Cavalry, but the errata to the 8th edition gave Elven Steeds themselves the Fast Cavalry rule. And since the mount being Fast Cavalry always extends to the rider, according to 8th edition, now my Nobles are Fast Cavalry. Which makes me really happy. :smallcool:

The O&G FAQ doesn't seem to include anything like that, though, so the answer has to be in the army book itself.