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Tyger
2010-07-30, 02:10 PM
I could have sworn I saw a build that was Swordsage 2 / Crusader 3 / Ur-Priest 2 / RKV whatever... Looked solid when I first looked at it, but the skill requirements for entry into Ur-Priest mean that if you are doing them as cross class skills, and thus can't fit them in the 5 levels of ToB classes.

I want to be wrong here, so can anyone explain how it works?

unimaginable
2010-07-30, 02:57 PM
Some people don't mind/don't notice minor cheating with skills?

DragoonWraith
2010-07-30, 02:58 PM
Feats to get skills in class are pretty common; maybe they used those?

Machiavellian
2010-07-30, 04:46 PM
My two cents:

Race: Human

Class: Ardent 8/Ur Priest 1/Human Paragon 3 (Ur Priest)/Divine Theurge 8

Use Criminal [Background] at lv1 so you can get Bluff, and voila! Psionics and Divine Magic in one character

Wings of Peace
2010-07-30, 04:46 PM
I've run something similar but in my case it was (something like) Crusader 3/Human Paragon 2/Ur-Priest 2/RKV

Machiavellian
2010-07-30, 04:48 PM
I've run something similar but in my case it was (something like) Crusader 3/Human Paragon 2/Ur-Priest 2/RKV

Ah... Paragon Classes. Why do most DM's not like them???

Wings of Peace
2010-07-30, 04:50 PM
Ah... Paragon Classes. Why do most DM's not like them???

Because being good at skills is a crime? I don't really know. They're pretty underpowered in my opinion. Unless I'm trying to qualify for something I don't generally take them.

Machiavellian
2010-07-30, 04:59 PM
Because being good at skills is a crime? I don't really know. They're pretty underpowered in my opinion. Unless I'm trying to qualify for something I don't generally take them.

Funny, I always try to qualify for them. My old DM thinks they are overpowered.

FMArthur
2010-07-30, 06:08 PM
Yours is the first DM I've heard of who doesn't like them.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-30, 06:45 PM
Seriously, they have decent flavor, they allow customizing a character, and they're pretty low-powered. What's to dislike?

gorfnab
2010-07-31, 01:30 AM
My favorite Ur-Priest that can also easily meet the prereqs is
Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 10/ Hellfire Warlock 3

Thurbane
2010-07-31, 08:39 PM
alternative ways to get new class skills (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0)

PId6
2010-07-31, 09:10 PM
Seriously, they have decent flavor, they allow customizing a character, and they're pretty low-powered. What's to dislike?
The "low-powered" part? Human is the only one really worth using, and even then it's only for a few specific builds (gishes usually) and because it advances spellcasting. I feel like most of them do need some sort of buff before they're viable options compared to T3+ classes.

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 09:48 PM
The "low-powered" part? Human is the only one really worth using, and even then it's only for a few specific builds (gishes usually) and because it advances spellcasting. I feel like most of them do need some sort of buff before they're viable options compared to T3+ classes.

What about Half-Elf into Human? Or my combo of using Dragon Disciple into Half-Dragon paragon? Or even a Drow?

PId6
2010-07-31, 10:03 PM
What about Half-Elf into Human?
You lose three levels of casting and have to be a half-elf. That's hardly optimized.


Or my combo of using Dragon Disciple into Half-Dragon paragon?
Dragon Disciple is widely considered a terrible PrC, and for good reason. It doesn't progress casting at all, despite requiring it, and most of its abilities are mediocre at best. Half-Dragon Paragon likewise doesn't give you much, since that doesn't advance spellcasting levels either, just caster level (much worse).


Or even a Drow?
The Drow Paragon class itself isn't terrible, but being a Drow (and getting +2 LA) is not worth it at all. If you can swing one of the Lesser Drow variants into this, it works much better, but it's still not great (and is probably worse than Human Paragon).

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 10:10 PM
You lose three levels of casting and have to be a half-elf. That's hardly optimized.


Dragon Disciple is widely considered a terrible PrC, and for good reason. It doesn't progress casting at all, despite requiring it, and most of its abilities are mediocre at best. Half-Dragon Paragon likewise doesn't give you much, since that doesn't advance spellcasting levels either, just caster level (much worse).


The Drow Paragon class itself isn't terrible, but being a Drow (and getting +2 LA) is not worth it at all. If you can swing one of the Lesser Drow variants into this, it works much better, but it's still not great (and is probably worse than Human Paragon).

1. I LOVE HALF-ELF
2. What sicko book are you reading from? The better version I saw was 5/10 spellcasting. Well past fixable to a Half-Dragon Loredrake. And Sorcerous Blood advances casting...
3. For people out there who play drow wizard, it's better than shelling out 20 levels for Paragon template

PId6
2010-07-31, 10:17 PM
1. I LOVE HALF-ELF
Love it all you like, it's not a good race.


2. What sicko book are you reading from? The better version I saw was 5/10 spellcasting. Well past fixable to a Half-Dragon Loredrake. And Sorcerous Blood advances casting...
Dungeon Master's Guide, p. 84. Also in the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm), if you want to take a look. Your "better version" is either homebrew or not 3.5, and has no relevance to this discussion.

Sorcerous Blood: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfDragonParagon)

A character's half-dragon paragon levels stack with sorcerer levels for purposes of determining the caster level of arcane spells granted through sorcerer levels. For example, a 2nd-level sorcerer/3rd-level half-dragon paragon's caster level is 5th for the spells she can cast as a sorcerer. This increased caster level affects only spells that the character can cast; it does not give her access to higher-level spells or more spells per day.
So no, Sorcerous Blood does not advance spellcasting. It advances caster level, which is far different from spellcaster levels.

And if Loredrake is allowed, you can do far far better than Dragon Disciple (*cough*Swiftblade*cough*).


3. For people out there who play drow wizard, it's better than shelling out 20 levels for Paragon template
Wait, what? How in the world does the Paragon template have anything at all to do with this discussion?

Prodan
2010-07-31, 10:19 PM
2. What sicko book are you reading from? The better version I saw was 5/10 spellcasting. Well past fixable to a Half-Dragon Loredrake. And Sorcerous Blood advances casting...

Someone plays Pathfinder.

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 10:21 PM
Love it all you like, it's not a good race.


Dungeon Master's Guide, p. 84. Also in the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm), if you want to take a look. Your "better version" is either homebrew or not 3.5, and has no relevance to this discussion.

And if Loredrake is allowed, you can do far far better than Dragon Disciple (*cough*Swiftblade*cough*).


Wait, what? How in the world does the Paragon template have anything at all to do with this discussion?

1.Half-Elves are excellent Bards (No Really. A Half-Elf Bard can talk his way out of any fight.)

2. Swiftblade is overrated. I used to play a 3.5/3.0 Crossover, and I used the other version of DD. Plus, swiftblade, to the best of my knowledge doesn't give you Half-Dragon

3. If you want to be a "paragon," the class is a more cost-effective way of going about it

Prodan
2010-07-31, 10:24 PM
1.Half-Elves are excellent Bards (No Really. A Half-Elf Bard can talk his way out of any fight.)
It's not the Half-Elf part that's the source of power for that build.



2. Swiftblade is overrated. I used to play a 3.5/3.0 Crossover, and I used the other version of DD. Plus, swiftblade, to the best of my knowledge doesn't give you Half-Dragon.
If you're a level 10 Dragon Disciple, you are at least a level 15 character, at which point you can take all the Half-Dragon paragon levels you want and not affect game balance too much.

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 10:29 PM
It's not the Half-Elf part that's the source of power for that build.


If you're a level 10 Dragon Disciple, you are at least a level 15 character, at which point you can take all the Half-Dragon paragon levels you want and not affect game balance too much.

1. The Half-Elf bonus to diplomacy doesn't hurt...

2. Okay... Fine...
I DON'T OPTIMIZE I play what I think is quiky and fun. Hell, I played a Bard who had no arms for Vecna's sake. He played a drum with his head... He was a half-orc for anyone who is asking...

Prodan
2010-07-31, 10:32 PM
1. The Half-Elf bonus to diplomacy doesn't hurt...

2. Okay... Fine...
I DON'T OPTIMIZE I play what I think is quiky and fun. Hell, I played a Bard who had no arms for Vecna's sake. He played a drum with his head... He was a half-orc for anyone who is asking...

And that's great, but when you're talking about how things aren't underpowered, you really should expect a short discussion on optimization to follow.

PId6
2010-07-31, 10:38 PM
2. Swiftblade is overrated. I used to play a 3.5/3.0 Crossover, and I used the other version of DD. Plus, swiftblade, to the best of my knowledge doesn't give you Half-Dragon
I fail to see how an extra standard action every round, and cheap Time Stops, all with 9th level spells (thanks to Loredrake) is "overrated."

And why in the world would you want Half-Dragon anyway?


3. If you want to be a "paragon," the class is a more cost-effective way of going about it
Or, alternatively, call yourself a "paragon" and roleplay your race as best you can. You don't need to have "Paragon" in your class line somewhere to be a paragon.

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 10:44 PM
I fail to see how an extra standard action every round, and cheap Time Stops, all with 9th level spells (thanks to Loredrake) is "overrated."

And why in the world would you want Half-Dragon anyway?


Or, alternatively, call yourself a "paragon" and roleplay your race as best you can. You don't need to have "Paragon" in your class line somewhere to be a paragon.

1. Because EVERYONE who has acess to Swiftblade's book suggests it. and Half-Dragon is flavorful, unique, and just plain cool

2. Or you could do that. I like to justify myself as a Paragon

Demons_eye
2010-07-31, 10:49 PM
1. Because EVERYONE who has acess to Swiftblade's book suggests it. and Half-Dragon is flavorful, unique, and just plain cool

2. Or you could do that. I like to justify myself as a Paragon

So if I wanted to be the best elemental mage I have to take Elemental Savant?

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 10:53 PM
So if I wanted to be the best elemental mage I have to take Elemental Savant?

Some unenlightened optimizers would say so. As for me, I say otherwise.

Frost Mage fills the void if you are a cold-focused mage. Heck, Red Wizard is an excellent elemental mage. Just depends on flavor. I'm just tired of people using the same sodding answer to any optimization question.

and as for people who disagree, feel free to PM me with your complaints.

PId6
2010-07-31, 11:10 PM
1. Because EVERYONE who has acess to Swiftblade's book suggests it. and Half-Dragon is flavorful, unique, and just plain cool
1. Swiftblade isn't in a book, it's in a web enhancement. Everyone has access to it.
2. Swiftblade is a very flavorful and unique class. Its abilities are entirely thematic and fitting, and it's a very viable option. That's likely the reason it's suggested a lot.
3. For the most part, Swiftblade isn't the most optimized option. Generally, you're better off not losing that many caster levels. However, it's still a good class, and works very well with various builds, something Dragon Disciple can't say.


2. Or you could do that. I like to justify myself as a Paragon
I'd imagine being a successful and powerful member of your race would justify you as a paragon well enough. Paragon implies a certain amount of success, so for most races, you can argue that you're less of a paragon if you take the paragon classes since you're weakening your character by taking them.


Some unenlightened optimizers would say so. As for me, I say otherwise.
I do hope by "unenlightened" you mean "bad," because I doubt good optimizers would ever recommend Elemental Savant. It's far from a good class, mostly because of all the CL that it loses you.

balistafreak
2010-07-31, 11:10 PM
So you like to justify yourself as a paragon by taking levels in a Paragon, but then advise someone to not be an Elemental Savant to be a... well, you know.

You're either being purposefully obfuscating, don't realize your own hypocrisy, or simply have strange tastes. Given your response, it's probably the third one (heck, I adore Leadership but hate Shapechange, despite the first being arguably definitely more broken than the second) but knowing the Internet, the other two are not discountable. :smalltongue:

But anyways, to reiterate the OP's question, yeah, class-skill feats. They're painful "useless" feats, yes, but Ur-Priest more than makes up for it. :smallamused:

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 11:16 PM
1. Swiftblade isn't in a book, it's in a web enhancement. Everyone has access to it.
2. Swiftblade is a very flavorful and unique class. Its abilities are entirely thematic and fitting, and it's a very viable option. That's likely the reason it's suggested a lot.
3. For the most part, Swiftblade isn't the most optimized option. Generally, you're better off not losing that many caster levels. However, it's still a good class, and works very well with various builds, something Dragon Disciple can't say.


I'd imagine being a successful and powerful member of your race would justify you as a paragon well enough. Paragon implies a certain amount of success, so for most races, you can argue that you're less of a paragon if you take the paragon classes since you're weakening your character by taking them.


I do hope by "unenlightened" you mean "bad," because I doubt good optimizers would ever recommend Elemental Savant. It's far from a good class, mostly because of all the CL that it loses you.

1. I don't use Web enhancements on average; So? When I was on back in june, any Gish build either had Abjurant Champion or Swiftblade, and I just snapped; and I understand, I just wnat to play how I like to play. If that means ridicule by my fellow Playgrounders, than they can listen to Kid Rock's "Sugar," specifically before the first playing of the chorus involving kissing some part of his body he describes as "Anglo-Saxon"

2. I was a fan of Paragon classes since they are fillers

3. by unenlightened, I mean people who use the same optimization tips for any given situation. Not saying that their one trick isn't good or anything, just saying let's add some creativity...

Prodan
2010-07-31, 11:19 PM
So, which version of Dragon Disciple gave 5/10 casting?

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 11:24 PM
So, which version of Dragon Disciple gave 5/10 casting?

apparently, the PF version. I told the DM I wanted to try DD, and he gave me that version

Prodan
2010-07-31, 11:28 PM
I heard it was 7/10.

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 11:30 PM
I heard it was 7/10.

reguardless, the DM put a houserule that any PrC that advances casting advances it to full. so what it was is a moot point

Boci
2010-08-01, 06:53 AM
3. by unenlightened, I mean people who use the same optimization tips for any given situation. Not saying that their one trick isn't good or anything, just saying let's add some creativity...

No optimizer would recomend elemental savant PrC, since it is really bad. Locking you into a single energy type, really?

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-01, 07:55 AM
1. I don't use Web enhancements on average; So? When I was on back in june, any Gish build either had Abjurant Champion or Swiftblade, and I just snapped; and I understand, I just wnat to play how I like to play. If that means ridicule by my fellow Playgrounders, than they can listen to Kid Rock's "Sugar," specifically before the first playing of the chorus involving kissing some part of his body he describes as "Anglo-Saxon"

Okay? Abjurant Champion just happens to be a pretty sweet Gish PrC. Most people coming around here asking for help building a Fighter/Wizard will end up being pointed toward one of the following three: Abjurant Champion, Swiftblade, and/or Jade Phoenix Mage. With the latter two, Abjurant Champion acts almost like filler, but it itself can be taken on its own merits. Personally, I like to throw it on War Weavers so everyone in the party can get the juicy +9 Shield for free.


2. I was a fan of Paragon classes since they are fillers

So is Abjurant Champion. The deference is that Abjurant Champion tends to be more complimentary than Dwarf Paragon or Elf Paragon for what it's trying to accomplish.


3. by unenlightened, I mean people who use the same optimization tips for any given situation. Not saying that their one trick isn't good or anything, just saying let's add some creativity...

Most threads tend to ask about getting the most mileage out of X, where X can be whatever class combo out there. Yes, people will facetiously say "Take Unarmed Swordsage instead of Monk," but that does not preclude people from also giving relevant advice within the limitations of whatever the original poster demanded.

Machiavellian
2010-08-01, 10:37 AM
Okay? Abjurant Champion just happens to be a pretty sweet Gish PrC. Most people coming around here asking for help building a Fighter/Wizard will end up being pointed toward one of the following three: Abjurant Champion, Swiftblade, and/or Jade Phoenix Mage. With the latter two, Abjurant Champion acts almost like filler, but it itself can be taken on its own merits. Personally, I like to throw it on War Weavers so everyone in the party can get the juicy +9 Shield for free.



So is Abjurant Champion. The deference is that Abjurant Champion tends to be more complimentary than Dwarf Paragon or Elf Paragon for what it's trying to accomplish.



Most threads tend to ask about getting the most mileage out of X, where X can be whatever class combo out there. Yes, people will facetiously say "Take Unarmed Swordsage instead of Monk," but that does not preclude people from also giving relevant advice within the limitations of whatever the original poster demanded.

1. See, I never see War Weaver in builds, nor Spellsword dips, or even Ronin. It bugs me when Optimizers refuse to use other classes with some cool not only fluff, but satasfying crunch.

2. My guess is that the Paragon Classes are designed towards the PHB race's Favored Class, attempting to accent the normal power level of these classes. A Human Fighter/Paragon is good because you get stat bonuses, plus bonus feats that aren't exclusively fighter and another class skill. Dwarf's is meant for non-casting classes. Heck, Drow's is just plain cool. Shoot, if I could play a Lesser Drow, I'd take the Highborn Drow feat and take this paragon class. I'd also be a Gladiator from KoK

3. I realise that. It just seems like that whenever some people, not naming names, open their proverbial mouth on the forums

Boci
2010-08-01, 10:41 AM
1. See, I never see War Weaver in builds, nor Spellsword dips, or even Ronin. It bugs me when Optimizers refuse to use other classes with some cool not only fluff, but satasfying crunch.

I've seen Spellsword dips recommended a fair amount of times. War weaver is a bit more obscure, but whilst not recomended it is frequently mentioned as making a good character. Ronin is a bit meh. All NPCs hate you, and the mechanics aren't that good, so its generally better to just play some other martial class and include a source of shame in your background story.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-01, 12:24 PM
War Weaver is on a very short list of worthwhile PrCs that lose a spellcasting level. It's a pretty sweet PrC. It's also just about the only way to make "massive numbers of low-level spells instead of high-level spells" a viable strategy.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-01, 04:49 PM
1. See, I never see War Weaver in builds, nor Spellsword dips, or even Ronin. It bugs me when Optimizers refuse to use other classes with some cool not only fluff, but satasfying crunch.

As has been mentioned, Spellsword sees use. The issue with Spellsword is that it doesn't give you much of anything. The best thing it gives after the first level is terribly limited in uses per day and easily replicated via a feat. Most of the crunch for things like Ronin outside of the first level or so is complete jank. Justifying fluff as a reason to take a class is poor, as fluff can easily be re-imagined.


2. My guess is that the Paragon Classes are designed towards the PHB race's Favored Class, attempting to accent the normal power level of these classes. A Human Fighter/Paragon is good because you get stat bonuses, plus bonus feats that aren't exclusively fighter and another class skill. Dwarf's is meant for non-casting classes. Heck, Drow's is just plain cool. Shoot, if I could play a Lesser Drow, I'd take the Highborn Drow feat and take this paragon class. I'd also be a Gladiator from KoK

It is true that most of the paragon classes are designed towards that race's favored class. However, that doesn't automatically make them good. The Drow Paragon is fine as long as you are using the Lesser version. It doesn't really do much, though. The extra Dex is nice, but that eats three levels. The other two levels replicate two separate items, one of which is worth frakking 10 GP.

The only paragon class that's really worth while is the human, due to the extreme flexibility in skills, feats, and casting.