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Awnetu
2010-07-30, 09:37 PM
Is there anyway to get an increase in the amount of skill points you receive each level past increasing your intelligence modifier?

(For clarification, this is D&D 3.5 (Non Homebrew, but online sources are probably fine.))

dextercorvia
2010-07-30, 09:41 PM
Play a human. Nymph's Kiss feat. There is a feat in CAdv that gives you 5 skill points.

Edit: It's called Open Minded.

Edit2: For completion. Play a class with more skill points, Cloistered Cleric vs Cleric, eg. Able Learner, doesn't get you more skill points, but it makes cross class skills less expensive.

FMArthur
2010-07-30, 09:49 PM
You can also gain a single rank in a skill of your choice by taking the Primary Contact feat. It has a prerequisite feat that gives you a +2 bonus on a skill. :smallamused:

Awnetu
2010-07-30, 10:03 PM
Play a human. Nymph's Kiss feat. There is a feat in CAdv that gives you 5 skill points.

Edit: It's called Open Minded.

Edit2: For completion. Play a class with more skill points, Cloistered Cleric vs Cleric, eg. Able Learner, doesn't get you more skill points, but it makes cross class skills less expensive.

I've been looking for a Martial class that would either go with Warblade or support it in some manner so that I could grab more skill points, but I'm having a hard time coming up with anything better than 4 + Int mod other than a Rogue.

As far as Primary Contact goes, that could probably be worked in, seems a little expensive though, for +3 to one skill for 2 feats.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-30, 10:05 PM
Illiterate trait gives you an extra skill point or two. Unearthed Arcana.

dextercorvia
2010-07-30, 11:10 PM
I've been looking for a Martial class that would either go with Warblade or support it in some manner so that I could grab more skill points, but I'm having a hard time coming up with anything better than 4 + Int mod other than a Rogue.

As far as Primary Contact goes, that could probably be worked in, seems a little expensive though, for +3 to one skill for 2 feats.

What do you want your character to do? Martial Characters don't tend to get a ton of skill points because they get to hit stuff with weapons really hard.

Edit: I knew there was one. Ranger gets 6+Int.

Awnetu
2010-07-30, 11:30 PM
What do you want your character to do? Martial Characters don't tend to get a ton of skill points because they get to hit stuff with weapons really hard.

Edit: I knew there was one. Ranger gets 6+Int.

I was aiming to build a character that I felt embodied a Samurai, and while I was reading up on Samurai(Earth type), several skills were coming to mind. For example many Samurai fighting styles did use Iajitsu. However, also thinking back to what a Samurai was, I felt like he should be successful(moderately) at any physical task, IE Climb/Jump/(Maybe tumble), but also, being expected to live among royalty, I would expect a Knowledge(History/Local).

Concentration was another skill that seemed important just because of the Diamond Mind set of maneuvers that Warblades get, (Which to me makes a bit more sense than just slashing over and over again, given the phrase "One Cut, One Kill".) Sense Motive/Bluff would be another two skills, I think a Samurai would do well to possess as well.

Maybe I'm thinking too much into it? Just seems like alot my character would have to be good at to pull of what I see of Samurai.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-31, 12:43 AM
I think you have unrealistically high expectation of Samurai.

Consider, say, a european knight. Would he not need all those same skills, along with perhaps ride?

You can have some skill at all of those...or you can specialize. You just can't specialize in everything. There's a difference between your character being proficient at a skill and having max ranks in a skill.

FMArthur
2010-07-31, 12:54 AM
Your character is a Factotum who uses Iaijutsu Focus. Gets all skills and lots of skill points (6+Int on a primarily Int-based class will get you far more skill points than a rogue), depends only on Int modifier, gets high initiative, one of the best users of Knowledge Devotion, and gets Int to basically everything in a fight if you take Font of Inspiration enough times. Get a pounce ability and TWF a pair of Gnome Quickrazors. Give one the Warning property and the other the Eager property and take Improved initiative. That's 11 + your Int mod (Factotum level 3 ability) to Initiative, so you always go first and cut down your foe very fast.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-31, 01:27 AM
Your character is a Factotum ... Gets all skills and lots of skill points (6+Int on a primarily Int-based class will get you far more skill points than a rogue)
"Far more skill points than a Rogue" means the Factotum's INT is far more than 4 points higher than the Rogue's. That's really unlikely. With point buy the Rogue can start out at INT 14 (before racial modifiers) without paying any premium for that stat. The Factotum can't go above 18 (again, before racial modifiers), and that'll cost you 10 points extra for +4 INT ─ a 6 point premium ─ just to match the Rogue in skill points.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-31, 01:40 AM
You are getting an 18 int with a factotum. It's an int based class. And its hardly just for the skill points.

Picking up a +int race is also not ridiculous. Grey elves, for example. Bonus dex and int? Yes please!

JaronK
2010-07-31, 01:50 AM
Also remember that Factotums get Int to all Str and Dex based skills. Consider how many Rogues really want high Hide, Escape Artist, and Move Silently skills, as well as a decent Tumble. Even with only 18 Int (you'll eventually have higher as you level up) that's an extra 20 skill points, effectively.

Now add in the fact that many skills are used once a day, usually. Diplomacy, Craft, Forgery, Appraise, Disguise... a Factotum can spend a single point and be quite effective at these skills, while a Rogue either has to not have them at all or dump a lot of points in to be useful.

In the end, the Factotums are WAY better with skills.

JaronK

Curmudgeon
2010-07-31, 02:42 AM
Picking up a +int race is also not ridiculous. Grey elves, for example. Bonus dex and int? Yes please!
Yes, that's an excellent choice for a Rogue, too.

In the end, the Factotums are WAY better with skills.

Actually it's the other way around. Once Rogues get Skill Mastery and Savvy Rogue they're able to "take 12" on all mastered skills. For skills where there's a fixed success number (such as 35 to Tumble at full speed through an enemy), the Rogue only needs a skill modifier 12 less than that target number (23 for Tumble) for a guarantee of success. The Factotum can't "take 10" in combat, and would need an INT of at least 32 using Brains over Brawn, or 11 more skill ranks, in order to guarantee a success with the same skill in case they roll a 1. (Failure would mean stopping right in front of an enemy, provoking an AoO, and then being in a position for them to make a full attack.) Also Skill Mastery can be applied to all skills except Use Magic Device, not just Dexterity- and Strength-based skills.

In the end, because the Rogue needs 11 fewer skill ranks for all mastered skills (usually about 9 skills = 99 fewer skill ranks needed) to guarantee success, the Factotum's just not going to be able to keep up.

Edge of Dreams
2010-07-31, 02:43 AM
Another thing to consider is that just because you came up with a list of 15 or 20 skills your character should have doesn't mean you need to max out all of them.

Take however many skill points you get per level, call that N. Now, pick roughly N-1 or N-2 skills that the character will use all the time, the most important skills for the build. Max those skills out, or take them up to whatever number of ranks is needed. Then, take the remaining points and spread them among the other 10 skills or whatever to show that the character has some experience with those things, but doesn't necessarily use them on a daily basis.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-31, 02:54 AM
Though only Rogues can get to "take 12" with Savvy Rogue, other classes can "take 10" with selected skills and thus reduce their skill ranks needed with known skill DCs. From the Lists of Stuff (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff):

Skill Mastery - aka "Take 10"
Rogue 10
Rogue 1, Changeling substitution level, Races of Eberron, Diplomacy/Bluff/Gather Info/Intimidate/Sense Motive
Ranger 13, Half-elf substitution level, Races of Destiny, select 3+(Int mod) skills
Swashbuckler 13, Complete Warrior, jump/tumble
Invisible Blade 4, ecl 9, Complete Warrior, bluff
Exemplar 1, ecl 11, Complete Adventurer, 1+Int and a new one each level
Dread Pirate 8, ecl 13, Complete Adventurer, balance/climb/jump/tumble
Dungeon Delver 3, ecl 10, Complete Adventurer, select 3+Int
Nightsong Infiltrator 6, ecl 13, Complete Adventurer, climb, disable device, open lock, search
Thief-Acrobat 4, ecl 8, Complete Adventurer, balance/climb/jump/tumble
Evangelist 4, ecl 9, Complete Divine, select 1+Int from list
Temple Raider of Olidammara 9, ecl 14, Complete Divine, select 3+Int
Urban Soul 6, ecl 13, Races of Destiny, balance/climb/jump/move silently/tumble
Artificer 13, Eberron Campaign Setting, spellcraft and Use Magic Device
Warlock 4, Complete Arcane, on Use Magic Device checks
Shade Hunter 6, ecl 11, FR: Champions of Ruin
Dervish 1, ecl 6, Complete Warrior, jump/perform/tumble
Cyre Scout 8, ecl 11, Eberron: Dragonmarked, survival
Deneith Warden 8, ecl 12, Eberron: Dragonmarked, sense motive
Savvy Rogue, feat, Complete Scoundrel, "take 12" on skill mastery
Court Herald 10, ecl 17, Power of Faerun, selet 3+(int mod)
Darkrunner 8, ecl 12, Lords of Madness, balance/climb/escape artist/jump/swim
Naberius, vestige, ecl 1, Tome of Magic, diplomacy
Hoardstealer 8, ecl 13, Draconomicon, 3+Int

JaronK
2010-07-31, 03:18 AM
Actually it's the other way around. Once Rogues get Skill Mastery and Savvy Rogue they're able to "take 12" on all mastered skills. For skills where there's a fixed success number (such as 35 to Tumble at full speed through an enemy), the Rogue only needs a skill modifier 12 less than that target number (23 for Tumble) for a guarantee of success. The Factotum can't "take 10" in combat, and would need an INT of at least 32 using Brains over Brawn, or 11 more skill ranks, in order to guarantee a success with the same skill in case they roll a 1. (Failure would mean stopping right in front of an enemy, provoking an AoO, and then being in a position for them to make a full attack.) Also Skill Mastery can be applied to all skills except Use Magic Device, not just Dexterity- and Strength-based skills.

Have you actually played both? Because the difference is night and day, and the Factotum trumps all the way.

Consider crafting items. If the Rogue wants to craft his own mundane gear (a great idea for starting characters) at level 5, he needs to hit a DC 20 for masterwork stuff while taking 10. Assuming an Int of 16 and a masterwork tool, he'll need 5 ranks invested in any craft skill he wants to use.

The Factotum with the same Int and tools just casts Magecraft. No skill points spent.

Now imagine the Rogue wants to use Forgery effectively. You want to make sure the enemy can't spot the forgery, but that's not too hard... it's opposed with Forgery, and most guards don't pump Int. Assuming an Int 10 guard with no ranks (accurate for most, the Rogue needs to make sure he won't fail), as well as the Masterwork Tool, the Rogue needs 6 Ranks for safety. The Factotum needs 1 (thanks, Cunning Insight).

How about Diplomacy? This skill is rarely used more than once a day. As such, the Factotum can have [level] fewer ranks to have the exact same effect. The same is true for all once a day skills.

And what about Tumble? Mostly, that's a pretty low DC to hit (easily done for a Factotum with that Int + Dex to the skill), and maybe once per day you actually want to move at full speed. No worries, Factotums just add their level to it when that occurs (+12 to a skill beats taking 12, and remember you need level 12 to actually get Savvy Rogue and that ability!). It's not like Factotums need to flank.

At higher levels (you, after all, assumed level 12+, as though the majority of games are played above level 11. This is false, of course) it gets worse. Cunning Insight makes the Factotum dominant in a variety of once per day skills without needing to spend more than one point per skill. A variety of spells trump skills anyway (Knock defeats Arcane Lock and works on any Open Lock DC, while Open Lock is defeated by Arcane Lock) or give boosts to skills (Magecraft is a good example) or work well with skills (Minor Creation as a standard action + Craft Poison = win, and the ability to actually create magic wands makes UMD far better). Your comparison completely forgot Cunning Insight (you don't have to tumble at full speed past enemies a lot, only a few times... most of the time normal moves will get the job done, and Factotums don't need to flank anyway).

Consider that a 12th level Factotum with an Int of 27 (assuming starting Int 16, 3 level ups, and a +6 item) and a Dex of 18 (pretty reasonable I think) could put 1 rank into Appraise, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Craft Poison, Open Lock (hey, a Wand of Knock is usually plenty), Forgery, Autohypnosis, and Handle Animal, then max out the more commonly used skills (Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device, UMD, Tumble, etc). To have equivalent skill ranks for actually using the skills, your Savvy Rogue example (assuming Int 16, Dex 27, which is also reasonable I'd say) would need to put in 12 more ranks in the 7 skills listed as one point wonders (104 skill points, factoring in the Int bonus to Escape Artist and Forgery's higher Int!) plus an additional 5 into each craft skill he wanted to be as good at (I love having Craft Poison, Craft Armorsmithing, Craft Weaponsmithing, Craft Leatherworking, and Craft Metalworking... but Factotums have Fabricate which makes those actually good) and an extra 22 skill points spent into the other listed skills. Sure, you could take 12 in combat, but so what? Spot and Listen more often matter out of combat. Same with Search and Disable Device. Hide and Move Silently might be in stressful situations, and the same is true of Tumble, but that's about it (and you're 4 points better in each, so your average roll is higher but you might roll really low). No way the Rogue is keeping up. Mostly, he just has to drop lots of these skills (appraise, forgery, all the crafts, etc).

Yeah, it's not really close. Taking 12 in combat is nifty, but it doesn't compare to Int to all Dex and Str based skills (which is a lot of your important skills), adding your level when you need to a skill, and more class skills. Especially since the take 12 ability requires at least 10 levels of Rogue (to get the special ability), not taking the other Rogue special abilities (I'm a fan of str damage), and burning a feat. All the stuff I said above? Just available to all Factotums, at no cost, starting at level 3 or so. Rogues might seem better on paper, but in practice Factotums have them beat on skills by a mile.

JaronK

Andion Isurand
2010-07-31, 05:44 AM
Checking out the Bardic Knack variant from PHB2 (which replaces the normal functionality of the Bardic Knowledge/Lore ability) is pretty interesting.

It helps you with skills you dont have many ranks in.