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Hirax
2010-07-30, 10:35 PM
I'm considering a PsyWar2 dip for feats, and the expansion power intrigues me. What are some ways that I could get 2 size increases out of it and also have it last more than a couple rounds? I'd be of up for a couple more levels of a psionic class (ardent?), but probably not more. I've never played a psionic anything before, so I don't know of any ways to raise my manifester level. Increasing the duration from rounds/level to 10min/level costs 2 PP, and getting a second size increase requires 6 PP, so I'd somehow need to get a level 9 manifester level since it's a level 1 power, right? Or is this going to be more trouble than it's worth, and I should just stick with 1 size increase?

update: the character in question is a half-minotaur changeling tank (this is a different character from my other thread) that's focused less on damage dealing, and more on literally being a wall, so that other characters can act safely. 2 levels of PsyWar are definitely being taken to get feats relevant to the campaign (bodyguard feats). Since I've already inked in 2 levels of PsyWar so to speak, any further psionic progression needs to be built off of that. Based on the input so far I'd strongly prefer to only take 1 further psionic level + practiced manifester and be done with psionic classes so I can move on to being a warshaper. I would probably only consider a 4th level of psionics if it got me access to second level powers. I've been through the XPH and CompPsi, and am going to sift through all the Complete/Races books for more PrCs, since they seem to be scattered throughout WotC's books. To that end, recommendations for PrCs or leads on where to look would be very helpful.

Arbitrarity
2010-07-30, 10:39 PM
Another level of Psywar, or another manifester level advancing class (Slayer, if you qualify, is pretty good), and Practiced Manifester (Complete Psionic) (raises ML by 4, to maximum of character level) gets you an ML of 7 by ECL 7.

With the increased ML, you can augment the power further. You can pick and choose which augments you want, so you only need ML 7 to get two size increases (only for 7 rounds, though, and it EATS your PP/day. You get 3+3.5*wisdom modifier at that level, which is... terrible)

Hirax
2010-07-30, 10:59 PM
Hm, some of the ardent's mantles look like they could be the most useful. Both the PsyWar and ardent use wisdom as their primary stat though. If I were to choose another psionic class that had int or cha as the primary stat, would I be able to double up and get bonus PP from 2 different stats?

The Glyphstone
2010-07-30, 11:35 PM
Yes, your total PP pool is shared across all classes that use PP.

Arbitrarity
2010-07-31, 05:49 AM
Your Manifester Level, however, is not. So you'd have separate ML's for Ardent and Psychic Warrior, and the two don't really interact at all. Thus, you wouldn't be able to maximize your augmented powers by dipping both Psychic Warrior and Ardent. Overchannel may help with this, but it means you're taking damage to max out your powers. And frankly, taking Practiced Manifester and Overchannel is some pretty serious psionic dipping.

Heck, you can double up on Psychic Warrior and Ardent for bonus PP, but since bonus PP are (ML*stat modifier/2), your low manifester level means you get the same or more PP by staying in class.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-31, 06:22 AM
Another level of Psywar, or another manifester level advancing class (Slayer, if you qualify, is pretty good), and Practiced Manifester (Complete Psionic) (raises ML by 4, to maximum of character level) gets you an ML of 7 by ECL 7.

With the increased ML, you can augment the power further. You can pick and choose which augments you want, so you only need ML 7 to get two size increases (only for 7 rounds, though, and it EATS your PP/day. You get 3+3.5*wisdom modifier at that level, which is... terrible)

HD7, not ECL7.

And on expansion: More manifester levels. This means either more PsyWarrior levels or levels in prestige classes that advance ML.

Mongoose87
2010-07-31, 10:53 AM
Heck, you can double up on Psychic Warrior and Ardent for bonus PP, but since bonus PP are (ML*stat modifier/2), your low manifester level means you get the same or more PP by staying in class.

I'm fairly sure you can only receive bonus PP for one class.

Hirax
2010-07-31, 11:31 AM
Elocator (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/elocater.htm) is the leading contender right now if I can get the annoying feat requirements waived/substituted with something non-sucky. It's appealing since I'd only need 1 level and has good will saves. I've only looked through Complete Psionic and the SRD (which contains all of the XPH PrCs right?), before I peck through all my books for the handful of Psionic PrCs scattered throughout, are there recommendations of psionic PrCs, or even just books to look in?

The Glyphstone
2010-07-31, 11:31 AM
I'm fairly sure you can only receive bonus PP for one class.




The Power Point Reserve
Psionic characters fuel their abilities through a pool, or reserve, of power points. Your power point reserve is equal to your base power points gained from your class, bonus power points from a high key ability score (see Abilities and Manifesters, below), and any additional bonus power points from sources such as your character race and feat selections.

Multiclass Psionic Characters
If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have.

While you maintain a single reserve of power points from your class, race, and feat selections, you are still limited by the manifester level you have achieved with each power you know.



With no exception listed, it seems pretty straightforward. As a Psion X, you gain A power points plus B for your Int score. As a PsyWar Y, you gain C power points plus D for your Wis score. If you'e a Psion X/PsyWar Y, you gain (A+B)+(C+D) power points, with manifester levels kept separate.




Elocator is the leading contender right now if I can get the annoying feat requirements waived/substituted with something non-sucky. It's appealing since I'd only need 1 level and has good will saves. I've only looked through Complete Psionic and the SRD (which contains all of the XPH PrCs right?), before I peck through all my books for the handful of Psionic PrCs scattered throughout, are there recommendations of psionic PrCs, or even just books to look in?


Slayer is the leading candidate for PsyWars (the generic one, not the Illithid-Specific). It's full-BAB and 9/10 casting, with a few decent class features to make up for lost bonus feats.

Hirax
2010-07-31, 11:37 AM
Slayer is my next choice, but remember this is only for a 2 level PsyWar dip character. The only purpose of gaining further psionic levels is to get another size increase out of expansion, and the fewer levels that takes the better. The character in question is a genericish tank.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-31, 11:37 AM
The bonus is pretty straightforward to calculate: (class level + modifier) / 2

So a psywarrior 10/psion 10 with int 16 and wis 14 would have 15 extra pp from psion and 10 extra pp from psy warrior, to add with the base he gets from those classes.

Hirax
2010-07-31, 11:40 AM
The bonus is pretty straightforward to calculate: (class level + modifier) / 2


That's psionic class level, and not total character level right?

Snake-Aes
2010-07-31, 11:41 AM
That's psionic class level, and not total character level right?Correct, sorry for not making that clear.

Arbitrarity
2010-07-31, 11:53 AM
Isn't it (ML*modifier*1/2) according to the specific text?

Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier × your manifester level ×½
The table specifies class level, and the text manifester level. Interesting. If it's ML, then Practiced Manifester is VERY GOOD.

Dacia Brabant
2010-07-31, 12:04 PM
The bonus is pretty straightforward to calculate: (class level + modifier) / 2

So a psywarrior 10/psion 10 with int 16 and wis 14 would have 15 extra pp from psion and 10 extra pp from psy warrior, to add with the base he gets from those classes.

This is a common misconception, since unfortunately the rule governing it is found in the War Mind PrC:


Power Points/Day
A war mind can manifest powers. His ability to manifest powers is limited by the power points he has available. His base daily allotment of power points is given on Table: The War Mind. In addition, he receives bonus power points per day if he has a high Wisdom score. His race may also provide bonus power points per day, as may certain feats and items. If a war mind has power points from a different class, those points are pooled together and usable to manifest powers from either class. Bonus power points from having a high ability score can be gained only for the character’s highest psionic class. (Bold added.)


So whichever source of bonus power points from an ability score is highest is the one that you use. Note this doesn't mean that if you have, say, a 20 Int and an 18 Cha but have fewer levels in Psion than in Wilder that you still have to take the bonus PP from Int if it's lower than you'd receive from Cha; whichever value on the table is highest is the one you get.

This may look unfair compared to a Cleric/Wizard receiving bonus spells for Wis and Int, but unlike psionic characters they don't get to combine spells per day from both classes and use their Cleric slots on Wizard spells or vice-versa. Also a general rule of D&D is that bonuses from the same source (in this case, bonus PP from having a high ability score) don't stack.

To the OP: definitely go Ardent with Practiced Manifester, since ML for your mantles is based on HD rather than class level.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-31, 12:10 PM
If the rule is only in the warmind, who has a distinct progression, then I don't see why apply a rule shown in his sheet to all others. The whole specific vs general thing, you know?

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-31, 12:14 PM
I would rather suggest a level of psion and use the bonus feat at first level to gain expanded knowledge to gain the expansion power. You get many more power points this way. You take levels of that and pick up practiced manifester for more ML. ML nine is a sweet spot for expansion, becuse that lets you get +2 size and 10 min / level.

That would be 3 levels of Psion, practiced manifester, and overchannel. Talented would help and remove the damage for overchannel. You hit ML 9 at 8th character level.

This is a big dip, but you can take some great powers like inertal armor and force screen. This creates a nice gishy psionic character.

Dacia Brabant
2010-07-31, 12:26 PM
If the rule is only in the warmind, who has a distinct progression, then I don't see why apply a rule shown in his sheet to all others. The whole specific vs general thing, you know?

I see your point about specific vs. general, but it's because War Mind has its own progression that I would argue it applies to other multiclass combinations of two distinct manifester progressions. After all, the exact same rule is found in the Psionic Fist/Fist of Zuoken PrC.

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 12:47 PM
I actually suggest (if it isn't out of line) Swordsage as your primary class, dip into PsiWar and be a Primordial Half-Giant (no, Really).

With Primordial Half-Giant, you may be losing a little in Str, but you get a nice fat WIS bonus! You, as a Half-Giant are treated as 1 size larger, then Expansion increases you X, then you use your maneuvers to beat your opponents into submission. Plus, If I'm not mistaken, SOMEBODY has made a ToB/Psionics PrC. Use that in tandem with your Swordsage and Psi Warrior and with the Wis synergy, you have an excellent AC (Light Armor + WIS +DEX) and you can Levitate 1/day (plus whatever other SLAs Primordial gets you.) With this combo, your party's wizard will suddenly get jealous as you swing your massive Greatsword (or, for EWP, Great Scimmy, which you could TWF if you so desire) and clobber entire waves of foes with your mighty maneuvers!

faceroll
2010-07-31, 03:39 PM
Slayer is my next choice, but remember this is only for a 2 level PsyWar dip character. The only purpose of gaining further psionic levels is to get another size increase out of expansion, and the fewer levels that takes the better. The character in question is a genericish tank.

Slayer is a great tank prestige class. Full BAB, near full manifesting progression, and solid class features.

Hirax
2010-07-31, 04:16 PM
Updated the first post with more info.

faceroll
2010-07-31, 04:33 PM
Go psywar 3. 2nd level psywar powers are pretty awesome.

Hirax
2010-07-31, 04:39 PM
You need a manifester level of 4 to get second level powers though. Were you suggesting I go PsyWar3/Slayer2? I'd much rather put 2 levels into Warshaper first to get the +4str & +4 con, and after that I might take levels in Berserk from Deities & Demigods (page 201) for another +6 str and +6 con.

faceroll
2010-07-31, 04:47 PM
You need a manifester level of 4 to get second level powers though. Were you suggesting I go PsyWar3/Slayer2? I'd much rather put 2 levels into Warshaper first to get the +4str & +4 con, and after that I might take levels in Berserk from Deities & Demigods (page 201) for another +6 str and +6 con.

Oh yeah, you're right. How early can you enter warshaper?

Anyway, you want at least psywar 3, then practiced manifester, so when you hit 7 HD you can get real big.

Hirax
2010-07-31, 04:49 PM
Oh yeah, you're right. How early can you enter warshaper?

Pretty much any time, its entry requirements are merely BAB +4 and shapechanger of some kind.

faceroll
2010-07-31, 04:58 PM
Pretty much any time, its entry requirements are merely BAB +4 and shapechanger of some kind.

May as well go psy war 4 for +3 BAB and a 2nd level power, then nab barb or fighter for rage/feat/pounce. Enter warshaper at level 6, which is standard for most prestige classes.

Have you looked at aberrant heritage feats for +5 ft reach? At 7 HD, you'll be able to reach across most rooms.

One thing that's a bummer about getting big are all the dex penalties you'll be taking, which makes combat reflexes less useful.

Wolf totem barbarian 2 gives you improved trip instead of uncanny dodge, which lets you get the knockdown feat without having 13 int for combat expertise. This means you hit somebody, trip them, then get to whack them again.

What level are you starting at, and can you buy off the LA you have?

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 05:04 PM
May as well go psy war 4 for +3 BAB and a 2nd level power, then nab barb or fighter for rage/feat/pounce. Enter warshaper at level 6, which is standard for most prestige classes.

Have you looked at aberrant heritage feats for +5 ft reach? At 7 HD, you'll be able to reach across most rooms.

One thing that's a bummer about getting big are all the dex penalties you'll be taking, which makes combat reflexes less useful.

Wolf totem barbarian 2 gives you improved trip instead of uncanny dodge, which lets you get the knockdown feat without having 13 int for combat expertise. This means you hit somebody, trip them, then get to whack them again.

What level are you starting at, and can you buy off the LA you have?

Heck, add the Willing Deformity [Tall] in tandem with the Aberrant Heritage feat, combo with Wolf Totem Barbarian and have fun beating people senseless with neigh infinite AoOs (with feats like Obtain Stance [?] to get Thicket of Blades and Rombilar's Gambit)

Hirax
2010-07-31, 05:18 PM
Level 15, with only 1 LA from the half-minotaur (so 14 character levels). There will be LA buyback. The plan so far is Monk2/Bar1/PsyWar2/Fighter2/Warshaper3/Berserk1/Fist of the forest 3. I might also add another template which could add another +1 LA. FOF, SUS and a monk's belt will contribute to me doing 20th level monk damage, so I'll be doing okay on the damage front, but the main priority is shielding others, and to that end I'm wary of being kinda short on reflex and will saves at this point. FOF will help with getting more AOs and the reflex saves, and AOs are especially important since I'll be taking large and in charge. This makes warshaper and berserk the most expendable.

edit: whereabouts is aberrant heritage?
edit: I was planning on taking knockback (RoS) instead of knockdown btw.

faceroll
2010-08-01, 02:17 AM
Get a spiked chain and stop worrying about monk nonsense. Slayer gets you good will saves and good mind protection in general.