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tundrawalker1
2010-07-31, 05:56 PM
Hey gang. I have a disagreement with my dm. It is not a big deal because my cohort will not be utilizing the attacks in question anyway but it is a case in principal.

The Feral template says the feral creature gains special attacks based on its hitdice. It then says the special attacks gained are in the row that corresponds to the monster hit dice. At 12 hitdice, you gain all 4 of the special attacks.

He believes this means monster hitdice such as troll or giant hitdice. I say it is the hitdice of the character which becomes a monsterous humanoid with the feral template.

He probably is right but I don't believe he is. What do you guys think? Thanks.

Boci
2010-07-31, 05:58 PM
It is a bit vague, but it is generaly assumed that your DM is right.

Tyger
2010-07-31, 05:59 PM
Dude...

<- is Tundra's DM.

The line says the creature "gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice, plus all those in previous rows" [emphasis mine]

Monster Hit Dice are not class hit dice.

Urpriest
2010-07-31, 06:03 PM
General consensus is that it refers to monster hit dice, as in hit dice from your type, not class levels. However, note that the Special Qualities section has no such restriction, and as such RAW applies to all hit dice.

Vortling
2010-07-31, 06:05 PM
I've seen it ruled both ways. In short if your DM is allowing you the feral template it is up to them. It's still a decent template if you only get the initial abilities.

tundrawalker1
2010-07-31, 06:08 PM
I am not kicking up a stink at all. He is....man I really don't want to say this, lol...a pretty reasonable guy. (facepalms). I can see it being the way he says it is but it makes sense that it is your hit dice as you are monsterous yourself. But his way makes sense. He don't listen to me, despite my being correct far more often than not. lol

PId6
2010-07-31, 06:13 PM
By RAW, the special qualities are gained depending on any hit dice, while the special attacks are based on racial hit dice (though it's a bit ambiguously worded there). However, Feral is an incredibly powerful template even without its abilities scaling based on class levels, so at the very least it should be reduced to calculating racial HD only.

Vortling
2010-07-31, 06:15 PM
But his way makes sense. He don't listen to me, despite my being correct far more often than not. lol

Generally you should go with what your DM says, even if it's not 100% rules correct. It tends to keep things running smoother.

FMArthur
2010-07-31, 06:35 PM
You're using a preposterously overpowered template, and he's letting you get away with it. That's not enough? :smallyuk:

Tyger
2010-07-31, 06:40 PM
You're using a preposterously overpowered template, and he's letting you get away with it. That's not enough? :smallyuk:

Well, in tundra's defence, its a preposterously overpowered game (20th level one off with a Tainted Scholar and a Incantrix / IoSFV.

If only I could explain to the other players that the monk and the swordsage are going to be a bit bored. :smallwink:

Boci
2010-07-31, 06:42 PM
Well, in tundra's defence, its a preposterously overpowered game (20th level one off with a Tainted Scholar and a Incantrix / IoSFV.

If only I could explain to the other players that the monk and the swordsage are going to be a bit bored. :smallwink:

Arcane swordsage you say?

PId6
2010-07-31, 07:00 PM
Well, in tundra's defence, its a preposterously overpowered game (20th level one off with a Tainted Scholar and a Incantrix / IoSFV.
:smalleek:

Feral doesn't come even close to those. I'd suggest allowing all HD to count in that case, since it's not going to make much difference compared to characters like those two.

balistafreak
2010-07-31, 07:22 PM
20th level one off with a Tainted Scholar and a Incantrix / IoSFV

wat

watizthis

watizthismadnez

DOESNOTCOMPUTE

Gaaaaaaaa!

Yeah, boost melee if at all possible. Allow all the stuff from the feral template, 'cause you're going to NEED IT.

tundrawalker1
2010-07-31, 07:38 PM
This is my cohort we are talking about. My character is a Evolved Spellstitched Wizard/incantatar/IOSFV/Archmage Lich. He could care less about the feral template.

My cohort is a Spellstitched Feral, Evolved, Necropolitan Human Paragon/Crusader/Swordsage/Ur Priest/Ruby Knight Vindicator. He is an excellent caster but can hold his own in melee too.

Just to clear that up.

Marnath
2010-07-31, 07:47 PM
How can he be a paragon of humanity if he's a feral human who underwent an unholy rite to become undead? That doesn't seem to mesh well thematically :smallconfused:

Boci
2010-07-31, 07:50 PM
How can he be a paragon of humanity if he's a feral human who underwent an unholy rite to become undead? That doesn't seem to mesh well thematically :smallconfused:

Are you sure we are both thinking of the same species? Yeah, cringe worthy I know. Sorry.

tundrawalker1
2010-07-31, 07:51 PM
How can he be a paragon of humanity if he's a feral human who underwent an unholy rite to become undead? That doesn't seem to mesh well thematically :smallconfused:

Where is it written they have to be good or not feral?

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-07-31, 07:59 PM
I am not kicking up a stink at all. He is....man I really don't want to say this, lol...a pretty reasonable guy. (facepalms). I can see it being the way he says it is but it makes sense that it is your hit dice as you are monsterous yourself. But his way makes sense. He don't listen to me, despite my being correct far more often than not. lol

Generally. . Monster Hit dice refer to racial hit dice from being a monster. . . these are ditinctly different from Class hit dice. . . which you gain from taking character class levels. . .

A gnoll has 2 monster hit dice, a gnoll with 5 fighter levels has 7 monster hit dice. . . still only 2 of those hit dice are monster hit dice.

Marnath
2010-07-31, 08:15 PM
Are you sure we are both thinking of the same species? Yeah, cringe worthy I know. Sorry.

Sorry, but i really have no idea what you're getting at?

Boci
2010-07-31, 08:17 PM
Sorry, but i really have no idea what you're getting at?

I go to University. Unholy and Feral sum us up pretty well.

Tyger
2010-07-31, 08:36 PM
wat

watizthis

watizthismadnez

DOESNOTCOMPUTE

Gaaaaaaaa!

Yeah, boost melee if at all possible. Allow all the stuff from the feral template, 'cause you're going to NEED IT.

Yeah, the "melee" in question is a quasi-cleric - Ur-Priest and Ruby Knight Vindicator. So... not so much melee.

That aside, I'm trying to keep the game to RAW when possible, RAI when that's not possible, and reasonable when that's not. This is a clear case of RAW stipulating something, and that RAI interpretation (if it can be called one, I think it is pretty clear) being a reasonable one. Therefore, no attacks.

Does it matter in the long run? Not likely. But when its a Persisted Divine Favour / Divine Might / Righteous Fury RKV, I am not too concerned about sticking with the rules.

Marnath
2010-07-31, 09:06 PM
I go to University. Unholy and Feral sum us up pretty well.


:smallconfused: Huh? I don't go to university so i still have no idea what you're getting at.. :smallredface:

Boci
2010-07-31, 09:10 PM
:smallconfused: Huh? I don't go to university so i still have no idea what you're getting at.. :smallredface:

That wierd. They said they whole orgy and fistfighting thing was present in every university...

Urpriest
2010-07-31, 09:23 PM
:smallconfused: Huh? I don't go to university so i still have no idea what you're getting at.. :smallredface:

Explanation, before this gets too silly: he's saying that for most of the human race (especially college students), unholy feral bad manners is generally the rule, rather than the exception.

Being undead is a little bit less archetypally human, however...

Boci
2010-07-31, 09:30 PM
Being undead is a little bit less archetypally human, however...

Again I'm not so sure of that. No beating heart to speak of, lack of sustenance and a generally irrational and intense hatred of all things living does remind me of the (supposedly human) student that somehow got elected for home coming queen.

balistafreak
2010-08-01, 01:51 AM
Again I'm not so sure of that. No beating heart to speak of, lack of sustenance and a generally irrational and intense hatred of all things living does remind me of the (supposedly human) student that somehow got elected for home coming queen.

Analysis:

Humans as an average whole are not very good at selecting exemplary members of their race, if we take the more generous interpretation of human. We need to add "clueless" to the list of human traits.

OR

The entire human race is like this.

I like the second one better... so I have no problems with that hilarious Spellstitched Feral Evolved Necropolitan Human Paragon, not at all. :smallamused:

Prodan
2010-08-01, 01:55 AM
Being undead is a little bit less archetypally human, however...

A New Pumping Device Brings Hope for Cheney
By LAWRENCE K. ALTMAN, M.D.; New York Times

Former Vice President Richard Cheney is recuperating from surgery to implant the kind of mechanical pump now being given to a small but growing number of people with heart failure so severe that they would most likely die within a few months without it.

The pumps are partial artificial hearts known as ventricular assist devices, and they come in various models. Mr. Cheney’s kind is about the size of a D battery and leaves most recipients without a pulse because it pushes blood continuously instead of mimicking the heart’s own pulsatile beat. Most such pulse-less patients feel nothing unusual. But they are urged to wear bracelets or other identifications to alert emergency room doctors as to why they have no pulse.

2xMachina
2010-08-01, 04:15 AM
LOL.

So the undeads are walking among us.