[3.5] How Many Dead Levels Can a Gish Have?

[balistafreak]

So I built this gish:

Wilder4/Fighter1/Thrallherd1

(No seriously, getting a 5th level gish alongside you has GOT to be well worth dipping the dead level. There's a reason most DM's don't allow Leadership/Thrallherd...)

One flaw is allowed. The feats go:

Wilder1: Inquisitor (feat tax to get into Thrallherd), Psicrystal Affinity (flaw).
Wilder3: Practiced Manifester
Fighter1 (5th level): Iron Will (fighter bonus).
Thrallherd1 (6th level): Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct).

Fighter1 is in there for Iron Will and MWP to get into Sanctified Mind. Thing is, I feel like I have too many dead manifesting levels with such a build. Is this normal, or will this build fall apart in an optimized game like I fully expect it to right now?

For example, taking Mindlink as a Wilder power (using a custom mantle via Mantled Wilder) hurts. A lot.

Next up, the build cries out for Paladin2 instead of Fighter1, but then I lack the feat to take Astral Construct (I'll have to take Iron Will as a feat tax) and lose a 2nd level power (Share Pain, which completely nixes PVS).

Overall, I've found building a gish within 5th levels (the Thrallherd level doesn't count :smalltongue:) to be a maddening experience. Is it supposed to be this hard to construct one from the ground up, or is it just me?

(Also, build advice would be appreciated.)

[Aethir]

While I can't really give advise on building a psionic character in general, I rarely have reason or even option to use psionics, I can see a few things going differently than you planned so far.

First off, unless you've got some houserules you didn't point out, Iron Will is not a Fighter Bonus Feat. However, you can get it effectively free, at a price of 3,000 gold instead of a feat selection via the use of the Otyugh Hole in Complete Scoundrel.

I'm not sure what you can do for MWP, but I'd imagine there's a race that may work for your needs. Speaking of, which race are you using?

[balistafreak]

First off, unless you've got some houserules you didn't point out, Iron Will is not a Fighter Bonus Feat.

Eh?

*checks*

>.<

Great, someone's build online is completely incorrect then. Well, that settles that.


However, you can get it effectively free, at a price of 3,000 gold instead of a feat selection via the use of the Otyugh Hole in Complete Scoundrel.

I forgot about the good ol' Otyugh Hole!

... the question will be whether or not my DM will allow it...


I'm not sure what you can do for MWP, but I'd imagine there's a race that may work for your needs. Speaking of, which race are you using?

I was getting MWP from the Fighter level. Since Sanctified Mind requires MWP (with all martial weapons, so no feat dipping... as terrible an idea as that is) I'm going to have to get it somewhere, perhaps from Paladin2, which looks much better now that I know that Fighter1 doesn't solve my feat problem.

Wait, maybe I can use a level of Psychic Warrior to take Practiced Manifester?

... no, that doesn't work either, I'll hemorrhage another point of BAB and then no longer qualify for Sanctified Mind anyways. :smallannoyed:

Race is currently in the air. I was considering using Maenad for the Maenad Wilder substitution level from Untapped Potential (DM okay'd it as a source already) so as to never be Dazed by Psychic Enervation, ever, but since 1 level of Sanctified Mind will basically negate that (I'm a caster, I still have uses for standard actions), it might not be worth the loss.

Kalashtar would let me not have to take Mindlink as a power, and would also open up knowledge of extra powers through embedded Quori shards or something.

Human would simply let me... you know, have a bonus feat and skill points.

Finally, a race with any sort of relevant stat-boosts (although the only thing I can dump is Intelligence; need all three physicals as a combatant, Wisdom 13 for Inquisitor, and Charisma is my casting stat) might be compelling as well. Lesser Aasimar? :smallamused:

[Flickerdart]

Why do you want Astral Construct? A gish wants buffs, not summons.

Generally, gishes are supposed to have at least 16 BAB (for that iterative attack) and at least 17 levels in a caster class (for 9th level spells/powers). Standard psionic gishes use Slayer to round out their BAB. However, the problem here is that you're using Wilder, and Wilders get a pitiful amount of powers known. Losing levels of Wilder loses you powers known, and this hurts you much more than the ML.

[Aethir]

Well if you need all martial weapon proficiency, I'd say go with something like Neraphim from the Planar Handbook. They have the Outsider type, meaning they get all simple and martial weapon proficiencies per the SRD. They may not boost your stats, but they're LA+0 and they take care of the need to dip into another class.

[PId6]

Have you thought about not taking Thrallherd? Blasphemy, I know, but if the lost level is hurting a lot, settling for regular Leadership or (gasp) no cohort at all might make your character work better. The Improved Cohort feat (HoB) makes the cohort 1 level below your own.

Also, a Psion or Ardent might work better as the base, since Wilder's powers known is cripplingly low.

[balistafreak]

Why do you want Astral Construct? A gish wants buffs, not summons.

Astral Construct is simply That Freakin' Sick. Especially on a Wilder who can raise his ML by +2 or more.

Seriously, read the stats on an Astral Construct, namely one that is a level higher than you can normally manifest (remember, +2 ML from Wilder). The Astral Construct (in terms of raw physical power) will be better than you are. Just like the Thrallherd dead level, Astral Construct is simply worth it. You might call it "a summon"; I call it "buffing your overall ability to add melee damage and protect the casters".

(Yes, I'm aware casters can just make their own Astral Constructs. The more the merrier, I say, because as a Wilder yours will probably be better than theirs.)


Generally, gishes are supposed to have at least 16 BAB (for that iterative attack) and at least 17 levels in a caster class (for 9th level spells/powers).

I'll have "16" levels, then. Paladin2, dead Thrallherd level, dead Sanctified Mind1. It won't hurt that bad, because the best Wilder powers are the lower level ones anyways - better mileage from Wild Surge.

I'm aware that Sanctified Mind will only take me 6 levels up, but like I said before I don't expect that the game will break 12.


Standard psionic gishes use Slayer to round out their BAB. However, the problem here is that you're using Wilder, and Wilders get a pitiful amount of powers known. Losing levels of Wilder loses you powers known, and this hurts you much more than the ML.

I'm aware of the Wilder powers known problem. But I'm convinced that the full PP progression and effective free PP through Wild Surge is worth more than additional powers known. It's not worth it to have a lot of tricks if you can't hope to use them to their full extent, is it?

(In before "Metamorphosis is the only buff you will ever need". I refuse such shenanigans on both RP and gamer perspectives.)

For my build, I believe Sanctified Build > Slayer due to Sanctified Mind's defining class feature: Partition Mind, aka "no more action loss due to Psychic Enervation".

Am I simply overvaluing PP?


Have you thought about not taking Thrallherd? Blasphemy, I know, but if the lost level is hurting a lot, settling for regular Leadership or (gasp) no cohort at all might make your character work better. The Improved Cohort feat (HoB) makes the cohort 1 level below your own.

Also, a Psion or Ardent might work better as the base, since Wilder's powers known is cripplingly low.

I'm trying to fulfill a role, not an individual character. Call me silly but I'm of the belief that two Party Level-1 characters are more effective than a single Party Level character in the frontliner role. A full-caster needs to be as high a level as possible, due to the quadratic nature of casting, but I think gishes manage to maintain enough effectiveness past the dead level to make it worth having the buddy.

Leadership/Improved Cohort is uncomfortable because you can only pick up Improved Cohort at 9th level. Stringing along a Party Level-2 character for 3 levels does not appeal to me.

Ardent as a base would be good if I had the heart to pester my DM enough about crafting custom Mantles. As written in Complete Psionic, I don't even want to approach them. :smallyuk:

(As for the Mantled Wilder thing I was talking about earlier, I'm actually still not entirely sure he's all for it, much less creating a character completely based on custom mantles.)


Well if you need all martial weapon proficiency, I'd say go with something like Neraphim from the Planar Handbook. They have the Outsider type, meaning they get all simple and martial weapon proficiencies per the SRD. They may not boost your stats, but they're LA+0 and they take care of the need to dip into another class.

Looked up the Neraphim. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2) They have MWP, +2 natural AC, and some skill bonuses, but is this better than a flat out bonus feat, not having to take Mindlink as a power, or getting statboosts?

I'm eying the Paladin2 dip very seriously now. Getting +5-6 to all my saves really makes me smile despite the lost ML.

[PId6]

Seriously, read the stats on an Astral Construct, namely one that is a level higher than you can normally manifest (remember, +2 ML from Wilder). The Astral Construct (in terms of raw physical power) will be better than you are. Just like the Thrallherd dead level, Astral Construct is simply worth it. You might call it "a summon"; I call it "buffing your overall ability to add melee damage and protect the casters".
Eh, why not just build a shaper or something then? It sounds like you're not trying to build a gish, you're trying to build a batman that occasionally swings a sword.


(In before "Metamorphosis is the only buff you will ever need". I refuse such shenanigans on both RP and gamer perspectives.)
*cough* Leadership *cough*


I'm trying to fulfill a role, not an individual character. Call me silly but I'm of the belief that two Party Level-1 characters are more effective than a single Party Level character in the frontliner role. A full-caster needs to be as high a level as possible, due to the quadratic nature of casting, but I think gishes manage to maintain enough effectiveness past the dead level to make it worth having the buddy.
Yes, two characters > one. On the other hand, if you just want the best possible way to fulfill that party role, why not play a Beholder Mage?

At this point, I'm really wondering what you're actually trying to do. If you want the best bang for your buck, make your guy a full caster and your cohort a full frontliner. If you truly want a gish, you should just make a gish, with all the limitations that entails. Otherwise, if you just want the best options, you may as well leave the frontlining to your cohort + astral constructs and just be a caster.

[balistafreak]

Eh, why not just build a shaper or something then? It sounds like you're not trying to build a gish, you're trying to build a batman that occasionally swings a sword.

Come to think of it, that is a valid point. Hmm. :smallannoyed:

The reason why swinging a sword is so key is elaborated below.


*cough* Leadership *cough*

Call it bias, but the idea of playing two characters is far less repulsive to me than becoming some sort of super-duper-awesome thing out of some godforsaken splatbook. :smalltongue:


Yes, two characters > one. On the other hand, if you just want the best possible way to fulfill that party role, why not play a Beholder Mage?

Beholder Mage will definitely get me kicked in the arse for creating one character that completely outshines the entire party, but on the other hand the DM has specifically okay'd both Thrallherd and Leadership. Hopefully it'll inspire less angst of "must catch up to that guy" because it's not one guy, it's two separate guys, and since the game is PbP the gameplay time impact (Leadership/Thrallherd at the table is timeconsuming, in PbP negligible) that aspect is out too.


At this point, I'm really wondering what you're actually trying to do. If you want the best bang for your buck, make your guy a full caster and your cohort a full frontliner. If you truly want a gish, you should just make a gish, with all the limitations that entails. Otherwise, if you just want the best options, you may as well leave the frontlining to your cohort + astral constructs and just be a caster.

I suppose I should have elaborated on the premise of the characters.

The DM has "made a psionics-focused game". The game already has pretty much nothing but full-caster applicants in the forms of Psions out the wazoo and the occasional Psionic Artificer. While full casters might be "better", it'll increase party variety and my chances of getting into the game by creating natural melee combatants (a Shaper flinging out Astral Constructs hardly counts); however, because this is a "psionics-focused game" (and to increase my chances of getting in :smalltongue:) I still want to be able to tap into some of the psionics love. Hence the "build two gishes" plan.

[Coidzor]

Call it bias, but the idea of playing two characters is far less repulsive to me than becoming some sort of super-duper-awesome thing out of some godforsaken splatbook. :smalltongue:

Aren't most of the good ones in Core anyway?

[balistafreak]

Aren't most of the good ones in Core anyway?

Yes. I suppose that picking something broken out of Core is classier, anyhow. :smalltongue:

[PId6]

If Maenad Wilder is allowed, why do you even need Sanctified Mind? Getting all your actions seems better than getting half of them, so why not just be Wilder 19/Thrallherd 1 (not in that order) and be a capable enough gish without other PrCs? You don't actually need 16 BAB to be a gish; full manifesting makes up for that quite well.

Is the DSP variant Wilder allowed? That's probably superior to the regular one, and you can still trade Volatile Mind for Educated Wilder.

[balistafreak]

If Maenad Wilder is allowed, why do you even need Sanctified Mind? Getting all your actions seems better than getting half of them, so why not just be Wilder 19/Thrallherd 1 (not in that order) and be a capable enough gish without other PrCs? You don't actually need 16 BAB to be a gish; full manifesting makes up for that quite well.

I figured that if I would be going into Sanctified Mind for the BAB regardless, I really wouldn't need to be a Maenad in the first place. It'd be nice to not ever have to use Partition Mind, but compared to not eating a much needed power for Thrallherd (Kalashtar) or having a straight out bonus feat and skill point (Human)? Hmmm. Probably not.

As for why not Wilder19/Thrallherd1? I'm trying to PrC out of Wilder ASAP for one reason: Psychic Enervation's PP loss isn't triggered from Manifester Level but from Wilder level. Call me a PP freak, but the sooner I can prestige out of Wilder, the more efficient my Wild Surges will remain. I'd probably stop taking Wilder levels no later than Wilder5, to pick up the minor boost of Surging Euphoria and the much more important boost of an Expanded Knowledge feat.

I can see a reasonable case for getting out at Wilder3, though, as in the previous Wilder3/Paladin2/Thrallherd1 build, because that's when you pick up Wild Surge +2.

If you feel that this is a completely baseless reason to do so, please speak up.


Is the DSP variant Wilder allowed? That's probably superior to the regular one, and you can still trade Volatile Mind for Educated Wilder.

DSP? This one? (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/maenad-wilder) I'm not seeing how it's superior - in fact, it seems pretty much worse in most regards. :smallconfused:

At the level I'm at, I lose more PP since PP loss from Enervation is keyed off of normal manifester level, not Wilder level, and I have a flat 15% chance of being Enervated instead of merely 10% (since at this level I'm surging for +2 only).

If I was straight Wilder7+, yes, this would probably be better, but with the gishy-dips I plan on making and the ECL<7, it looks pretty bloody terrible.

[tyckspoon]

DSP? This one? (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/maenad-wilder) I'm not seeing how it's superior - in fact, it seems pretty much worse in most regards. :smallconfused:


You linked the Maenad sub-levels again, there. The Wilder variant is better for high levels and, since you're looking at making a gish, the fact that Elude Attack is like infinity more useful than Elude Touch. But probably not worth dealing with the more frequent and more-draining surges if you're not going to run majority Wilder levels.

[Draz74]

Wait, maybe I can use a level of Psychic Warrior to take Practiced Manifester?

... no, that doesn't work either, I'll hemorrhage another point of BAB and then no longer qualify for Sanctified Mind anyways. :smallannoyed:

Are there really people who don't use Fractional BAB/Saves variant rules? :smallsigh:

[balistafreak]

You linked the Maenad sub-levels again, there. The Wilder variant is better for high levels and, since you're looking at making a gish, the fact that Elude Attack is like infinity more useful than Elude Touch. But probably not worth dealing with the more frequent and more-draining surges if you're not going to run majority Wilder levels.

Whoops. Fixing now.

Wrong link, but I did look at the Wilder variant on the same site. Yeah, it is much better than the standard Wilder when you get above Wilder7, but until then the surging is strictly worse.

If the game was starting at a higher level (10 or so) then I'd probably consider straight Wilder using that variant, but since it isn't...


Are there really people who don't use Fractional BAB/Saves variant rules? :smallsigh:

Yes. :smallfrown:

Enabling character concepts is good, ya know.

[Morph Bark]

Also, a Psion or Ardent might work better as the base, since Wilder's powers known is cripplingly low.

Ardent would also be more friendly, I'd imagine, if done with Practiced Manifester to make up for lost manifester levels, especially considering the Ardent's highest power level is manifester level-based rather than class level-based. Ardent mixed with a ToB class is therefore an amazing combo.

[balistafreak]

Ardents have zero need for Charisma, though, and since I'm taking that level of Thrallherd anyways, the most logical choice is to start as a Wilder to avoid pointless MAD.

Random question:

In my eternal questing for ways of finagling out of stupid pre-reqs, is there any creative way to be "able to manifest mindlink" as a Human who does not actually bother taking mindlink as a known power?

Right now I'm simply being a Kalashtar, but as always, I'd like Yet Another Bonus Feat :smalltongue:. The extra skillpoints wouldn't hurt either, given the retarded way I'm having to split them now for the prestige class prerequisites.

My first thought was "why yes, I can manifest mindlink... from someone else's mind" but that would definitely get me stomped upon.

[PId6]

Able to manifest Mindlink from a power stone? :smalltongue:

You can pay for a manifesting of Psychic Chirurgery. If you can get manifesting services for the same price as spellcasting services, that would come out to 6,530 gp for Mindlink (17 * 90 + 1000 * 5). You can lower the costs to 4,030 gp if you pay 500 XP yourself.

Finally, you can take Hidden Power for your human bonus feat. That'll get you 2 PP and Mindlink, which is less PP than Kalashtar, but you get the human bonus skill point. It's a tradeoff worth considering.

[balistafreak]

Huh, that Hidden Talent feat is pretty sweet. It's like Expanded Knowledge for a 1st level power on crack, just that you can only take it once.

But hey, free PP. The extra PP vs. skill point tradeoff is pretty tempting...

Psychic Cheurgery is most likely not going to fly... it's along the lines of getting Corpsecrafted Spellstitched, even if you do pay for it.