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ExtravagantEvil
2010-07-31, 10:10 PM
Greetings Playground, it is the dark lord ExtravagantEvil and I ask a simple request, I am in a campaign at the moment and am playing a Monk (did not realize it was crap until recently and was high on the fluff), and need to be saved because he is sucking as a monk does, and has A. hardly hit anything, and B. Nearly died (unfortunately, death would be a blessing at the moment, even if he is fun to RP) in many a combat situation.

So, I beseech the playground and ask, how to save the Monk I am playing.
Notes on character plan and stats(ish)
Monk 2
LN Dwarf
Str: 14 Dex: 13 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 12 Cha: 10

I was planning on Monk 10/Dwarf Defender 10, am playing him as a guy who stands still and benefits from said, and will take feats as such. On reflection, I've pondered him having an in character revelation at some point if I could come up with a better build. If not, he will really have more RP based revelations.

Notes on RP to help build ideas make sense: He is being visited occasionally by a very frightening god-thing, looks like Bakura in a leather jacket, and is being mildly driven into a state of warped mental status by moral ambiguity (to get out of jail temporarily he took a job from a corrupt cop nearly killed an innocent hooker, (stopped by friend, then other friend shot her) and knocked her child unconscious with Stunning fist, nearly sold to theives guild before friend reccomended the church), constant defeat, and previously mentioned God thing (very mysterious, no details other than description, DM has a plan of which I am unaware). He's right now trying to make a friend, and is undergoing realizations about teamwork, and combat. Will update after next session to give you further detail

My build idea is taking Psion levels soon after, after about, 3-5 total monk levels, that, or Multiclass into the Unarmed Swordsage bit if DM allows Tome of Battle, hopefully the latter, like keeping the combat role with this character, even if I have no skill as a martial role, and suck at it immensly.

So, after all this, I hope you can save my monk, or at least get him halfway out of the pit before he dies.

Daelen
2010-07-31, 10:17 PM
Since no one else has responded yet I'll say it now... Swordsage is the new Monk. If you can rework it completely, just replace those two levels with SS, if not, then tacking it on after those levels would still work.

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 10:17 PM
Oh Kord....

First of all, monk is a 2 level class (after 2, you don't wanna know...)

second, a DWARF?!

sorry for the outbusts....


anyways, I suggest the following for a Dwarf Monk (scary as it sounds)

Monk 2/Thug Fighter (UA) 2/Ur Priest 1/Contemplative 10/Mortal Hunter 5 (you will have to go from LN to LE) This offers epic casting and some nasty Melee

You worship an Elder Evil. Fits the bill for Contemplative

If you want to avoid going Evil (why eludes me...), then try this on for size:

Monk 2/Cleric 8/RSoRH (Re Horthanky instead of Pelor, cuz pelor's a wuss and Re offers better domains) 10

Healer, Undead Slayer, ect.

Prodan
2010-07-31, 10:17 PM
I would suggest you go into Swordsage immediately.

ericgrau
2010-07-31, 10:26 PM
Mobility is one of the biggest things to a core monk. This will be difficult to solve, even if it wasn't posted on forums that hate monks. Being in a group with strong things like ToB and psionics (mainly psychic warriors in this case), doesn't help either. Maybe someone here can give you a nice splatbook build. EDIT: And a ninja already did.

Basic tips (not including splatbooks): Close on a target fast to get your full attack. Go after the far away soft targets not melee. A high speed and the monk skills help there. Use your bonus feats. DO use monk weapons; unarmed strikes are for stunning fist and grappling ONLY. But like I said with splatbooks this could all be moot and you may be using an entirely different strategy.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-31, 10:32 PM
With a 12 wisdom, you are probably better off forgetting about your Wis-to-AC and just wearing armor.

balistafreak
2010-07-31, 10:46 PM
Monk2 isn't bad if you have better than average stats. Unfortunately, this is the point where I point out that your stat array freakin' stinks... so yeah.

Stats like those, you go straight into casting or ToB, because without some forming of casting (yeah, ToB counts as casting :smallamused:) you will suck forever.

Gavinfoxx
2010-07-31, 11:12 PM
Why does your character have no 15s or 16s?

Prodan
2010-07-31, 11:13 PM
Rolled stats.

Origomar
2010-07-31, 11:29 PM
cant really help you atm, if you take kung fu genius and 3 levels of swashbuckler you can become less MAD.

just stack dex and int.

dextercorvia
2010-07-31, 11:32 PM
Monk 2/Thug Fighter (UA) 2/Ur Priest 1/Contemplative 10/Mortal Hunter 5 (you will have to go from LN to LE) This offers epic casting and some nasty Melee

This is even more illegal than the first time you posted it. You do know how skill ranks work, right?

Machiavellian
2010-07-31, 11:34 PM
This is even more illegal than the first time you posted it. You do know how skill ranks work, right?

Hello y'all! I look like an ass.

I realise I screwed up. Don't hound me. I was sodding late to a friend's daughter's quncienera, so I had to type without thinking

Flickerdart
2010-07-31, 11:38 PM
Partially charged wands.

Prodan
2010-08-01, 12:02 AM
And a dip in Cleric with the Magic Domain to use them?

Kylarra
2010-08-01, 12:06 AM
Dip things until you can hit PrCs probably would be your best bet, unless your DM doesn't enforce MC penalties, in which case just take a straight ToB class.

Flickerdart
2010-08-01, 12:06 AM
No, you use them with cross-class ranks in UMD. Naturally.

Lhurgyof
2010-08-01, 12:10 AM
Cross class UMD

Bah! Ninja'd!

Prodan
2010-08-01, 12:11 AM
I feel like a fool for using such a counter intuitive solution to the problem.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-01, 12:20 AM
I suggest:
You have good Wisdom, but no Int bonus so Psion not good idea.

You could become a Psywarrior.
Prestige clas ideas:

1) Disciple of the Word (but +4 BAb required) in Tome of Magic would be a good idea. Increases Monk abilities like AC, Stunning Fist uses, unarmed, speed, Flurry, etc.
You'd have to build Truename skill, but the check is easier (unlike a Truenamer). Not till 3rd lv of class do you need to make as real Truename check (to heal).
4th lv, lets you run up walls, over water, etc.
6th: overcome DR with a check.
7th: Dispelling Punch (Truename check vs caster lv, meaning you'll have a higher bonus if you built up ranks).
8th: Deflect any melee/ranged attack (not spells though) with a Truename check. Sadly 1/day (making the ability poor)
9th: If Spell targets you + normally must go through SR, you can do a Truename check to stop spell.
10th: As immeediate action, do Check for bonus move action.

2) Tattoo Monk: Complete Warrior pg 82.
Lots of good buffs for a monk.
Chameleon grants Alter Self X/day.
Dragonfly: for 1 rd/class lv, gain dodge bonus (equal to tattoos acquired) 1/day
Falcon; immune to fear
Scorpion: 1/tattoo/day, force opponent to use lowest ability modifier instead of Dex/Str when making an attack roll.
Spider: Uses up a Stunning fist attempt, Con poison
Tiger: Bonus when fighting unarmed
Wasp: 1/tattoo/day, Haste for 1 rd/class lv.

OracleofWuffing
2010-08-01, 12:33 AM
I was planning on Monk 10/Dwarf Defender 10, am playing him as a guy who stands still and benefits from said, and will take feats as such. On reflection, I've pondered him having an in character revelation at some point if I could come up with a better build. If not, he will really have more RP based revelations.
I am not a character optimization expert, but I am concerned about what you're getting yourself into. I've seen Dwarven Defender generally regarded as a mediocre class: you get away with a number of defensive tricks, but your main feature is really only good in a chokepoint. Defensive Stance is X/day, and will become reliable on a per encounter basis somewhere around level 5 or 7- which are levels 15 or 17 in that build. And on top of all this, it doesn't add any special tricks outside of BAB to your attacks, so it's not too good a choice to help you hit things, which is one of your problems.

I know that Tome of Battle will be mentioned roughly over nine thousand times in this topic, but every class in there has access to the Stone Dragon school, which has a few power-up tricks that work off of not moving, like you wanted. They're generally considered numerically strong but strategically weak, as they can't be used while flying. It's far from a best-case build (You don't have a good CHA for smiting and Indomitable Soulling), but if your deals with a godlike whatchamacallit are strong enough to remove the neutrality from your character, a Crusader's Steely Resolve and related features would get you your defensive tricks and a good maneuver selection if you wanted to go straight Crusader from here on out, not to mention the applications of White Raven maneuvers for your "revelations on teamwork," and Iron Heart Surge.

You'd also not need to worry about the Adaptive Style feat, which will become your first priority feat if you stick with the Swordsage. :smallwink:

For a really off-the-wall solution, you could go with Warlock from Complete Arcane. I bring this up because they are very good at rolling with low ability scores (Just don't select Invocations with saves). Just make a "pact" with that god-thing to unlock your "true power," and you're suddenly throwing hadokens across the battlefield. You wouldn't get high BAB and your Eldritch Blasts wouldn't do too much damage without further optimization tricks, but you now target Touch AC. You will lose out on your max HP, though, your real benefits in so doing will be DR/Cold Iron and very later on, energy resistance.

Oh, also, you'd get to take ten on UMD checks when threatened, which is an awesome benefit for the partially charged wand UMD skills plan.:smalltongue:


My build idea is taking Psion levels soon after, after about, 3-5 total monk levels, that, or Multiclass into the Unarmed Swordsage bit if DM allows Tome of Battle, hopefully the latter, like keeping the combat role with this character, even if I have no skill as a martial role, and suck at it immensly.
All of that said, though, I'm not familiar at all with psionics, so I'd really like to get someone else's input as far as perhaps sticking around in Psion anyways if Tome of Battle doesn't fly. All I know about it is that it's a pretty well-balanced system as far as 3.5e goes, and that I see Psionic Warrior come up in possible "Monk-y" builds a lot.

Prodan
2010-08-01, 12:35 AM
Oh, also, you'd get to take ten on UMD checks when threatened, which is an awesome benefit for the cross-class UMD skills plan.:smalltongue:


That and UMD as a class skill...

OracleofWuffing
2010-08-01, 12:37 AM
Yeah, I meant to say Partially Charged Wands, not cross-class skills. 'Tis late. :smallbiggrin:

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-01, 12:40 AM
Rolled stats.

What does the DMG say about minimum stat totals for rolled stats again? I can't remember...


Also, cross class UMD is a *forum meme*, from a guy who insists that monk is useful, and in order to do this, wrote a build that used mostly things that have nothing to do with actual monk class abilities, ie, cross class umd and wands with few charges. YES, even a commoner can be made useful with enough money and enough cross class umd ranks, but that doesn't actually make the class useful with its own abilities. So consider those responses "joke responses".

And guys, can we try and lay off the joke responses, or at least help the OP separate the jokes from the serious responses???

Origomar
2010-08-01, 12:41 AM
What does the DMG say about minimum stat totals for rolled stats again? I can't remember...

wasnt even aware such a thing existed, i thought it was pretty much if you rolled bad stats you rolled bad stats.

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-01, 12:44 AM
wasnt even aware such a thing existed, i thought it was pretty much if you rolled bad stats you rolled bad stats.

This isn't 2e!

Prodan
2010-08-01, 12:45 AM
Only if your highest score is 13, or the sum of your total ability score modifiers comes to zero.

Lhurgyof
2010-08-01, 01:00 AM
If you want to stand still, I recommend Sidestep charge, Grappling Block, and that Combat Expertise feat that lets negates power attack and stuff.

If you like the fluff of monk, stay monk. Get necklaces of natural attacks and stuff like that.

And I know I'm going to get flamed like hell for telling you to stay monk, but hey, I like monk. It has a special place in my heart. xD

It really depends how good the rest of the party is at doing their job.

You say he's fun to roleplay? Well that usually makes characters more fun than having good numbers. xD

Prodan
2010-08-01, 01:02 AM
And I know I'm going to get flamed like hell for telling you to stay monk, but hey, I like monk. It has a special place in my heart. xD

I'd talk to a surgeon about having it removed from your heart if I were you.

Zaydos
2010-08-01, 01:08 AM
This isn't 2e!

Even 2e had re-roll rules... they were just only if you rolled really bad (i.e. could not fulfill the minimum ability score for any class). Then again useful ability score modifiers weren't that common in 2e and having stats like the OP's would have been easily playable although a 15 Str would have netted a +1 to damage.

balistafreak
2010-08-01, 01:20 AM
You say he's fun to roleplay? Well that usually makes characters more fun than having good numbers. xD

Sir, you are very correct that you were going to get flamed for that answer. Well, not flamed. Rationally and empirically dissected, more like. (Well, as rationally as I can discuss Monk3+, at any rate. :smalltongue:)

:smallsigh:

I hate this flippant answer. "Oh, just roleplay it out, who cares about the rolls?" :smallbiggrin:

You know what's not fun? Roleplaying your character up to be a competent fighter then getting smacked around by a bunch of sissy kobolds (as opposed to Tucker's Kobolds :smallamused:) because your "competent melee combatant" ideal of your character is completely hosed by a crappy build/stats. :smallfurious: Unless you were purposefully crafting a Fake Ultimate Hero (doubtful), chances are this turn of events will make you very annoyed and unhappy. :smallfrown:

He's already said he's nearly died once, for pete's sake. While he didn't elaborate past "hardly hit anything", it's safe to assume that Monk is at least part of the problem here. (Namely, the loss of 1 point of BAB which could have at the very least helped. With those stats, he's going to need every point of it he can get.)

Proper roleplay is impossible without a modicum of rollplay. Look me in the eye and say you can roleplay a Wizard5/Cleric5/Sorcerer5/Druid5 as a competent "caster of all kinds" alongside a... oh, I dunno, Warblade20. (I was going to say Fighter20 before I realized that at least you have 3rd level spells and Wild Shape to turn into a bird or something. :smalltongue:)

I'm not saying break out the Necropolitan Tainted Scholar for every caster who "seeks power", but it smacks of gross negligence to suggest advancing Monk past 2nd level WHEN THE OP HAS ALREADY SAID HE'S HAVING TROUBLE WITH IT. Seriously, you might as well say, "Having trouble swallowing this bitter pill? It'll be fine if you pretend it's sugar, here's another bottle." :smallyuk:

@OP: You know, you're not entirely hosed at this point in time. You're a Monk2, the end of the Monk class. You've received your capstone in the form of a second bonus feat. You just need to find something good to multiclass into.

... yeah, ToB.

Temotei
2010-08-01, 01:29 AM
second, a DWARF?!

Dwarves are a pretty decent race, even for a monk. Getting a penalty to Charisma hardly damages the monk, if at all, while a Constitution bonus helps a little in stat distribution. The save bonus vs. spells thing helps, and the rest is a bunch of fluffy things that might help a bit.

Sure, humans are better, but hey. He could have picked a half-elf.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-01, 01:34 AM
These stats are equivalent to 25 point buy, which is the default DMG recommendation, and also what the Elite Array is worth. So they're really pretty average for a PC. The problem isn't the stats so much as the fact that the Monk needs noticeably better than average ability scores to make its disparate class abilities work.

Here's my suggestion based on the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0):

15 point buy
22 point buy
28 point buy
32 point buy
40 point buy (This is where the Monk is.)
Just forget it.

Temotei
2010-08-01, 02:00 AM
These stats are equivalent to 25 point buy, which is the default DMG recommendation, and also what the Elite Array is worth. So they're really pretty average for a PC. The problem isn't the stats so much as the fact that the Monk needs noticeably better than average ability scores to make its disparate class abilities work.

Here's my suggestion based on the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0):

15 point buy
22 point buy
28 point buy
32 point buy
40 point buy (This is where the Monk is.)
Just forget it.


What happens if the wizard wants to be a blaster? What happens if he decides to be a tier 5 class, then multiclass into wizard for the rest of his career?

Penalizing the higher tier classes for being better penalizes the player for playing something they want to play.

Prodan
2010-08-01, 02:03 AM
A 40 PB monk still cries when the 15 PB wizard casts Planar Binding.

balistafreak
2010-08-01, 02:04 AM
What happens if the wizard wants to be a blaster? What happens if he decides to be a tier 5 class, then multiclass into wizard for the rest of his career?

Penalizing the higher tier classes for being better penalizes the player for playing something they want to play.

I believe the PB chart presumes full-optimizer levels of play where all players push the limits of their classes, when all players are aware of the Tier system.

If he multiclasses, eyeball what he's doing so for. If he ends up mostly like a Tier1 class, well, yeah. Most of the time, at a full-optimizer table full of gamers (since this is the premise the PB chart is created on), they'll have their builds fully planned out from the start to be playable from campaignstart-20, so there's no "deciding".

Obviously, season to taste for those not as powerful. :smallwink:

Temotei
2010-08-01, 02:25 AM
I believe the PB chart presumes full-optimizer levels of play where all players push the limits of their classes, when all players are aware of the Tier system.

If he multiclasses, eyeball what he's doing so for. If he ends up mostly like a Tier1 class, well, yeah. Most of the time, at a full-optimizer table full of gamers (since this is the premise the PB chart is created on), they'll have their builds fully planned out from the start to be playable from campaignstart-20, so there's no "deciding".

Obviously, season to taste for those not as powerful. :smallwink:

Those were actually genuine questions, not criticisms. :smalltongue:

As mentioned, though, ability scores only go so far. When a wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid can still "break" the game on a regular basis, the monk, even with twenty-five more point buy points than the wizard/cleric/druid and eighteen more than the sorcerer, can't compare even in the least.

If a group likes that chart, that's fine, but I don't like lowering a character's potential because the player wants to play a high-tier class. Preference, I suppose. If I had to provide a different ability score generation system for different tiers, I'd just go with something like this:
{table=head]Tier|Dice Rolls
1|3d6
2|4d6b3
3|4d6b3 seven times, take six best
4|4d6b3 seven times, take six best
5|4d6b3 seven times, take six best (two sets)
6|5d6b3 seven times, take six best (two sets)[/table]

Note that the table is really, really rough. I'd never use it because I'd rather have everyone on equal ground in terms of ability scores. If I want to limit high-tier classes, I'll limit spells. If I want to help low-tier classes, I'll improve hit point dice and rolls, BAB, class features, etc.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-01, 03:49 AM
What happens if he decides to be a tier 5 class, then multiclass into wizard for the rest of his career? You use the point buy for the highest tier class you choose. If you switch from Monk to Wizard, your abilities get lower.

Penalizing the higher tier classes for being better penalizes the player for playing something they want to play. So giving Monks more points is penalizing someone for wanting to play a Monk? Your statement only makes sense if you think that people only want to play the stronger tier (full spellcasting) classes.

No, this system just changes the "package". If you want to play a Wizard, you can still play a Wizard. You're just going to be a Wizard with lower average scores than if you wanted to use the Monk package. The idea is to average out the classes. Wizards (strong class ─ Tier 1) get to use the points the DMG recommends for a "low-powered campaign", while Rogues (weaker class ─ Tier 4) get the points the DMG recommends for a "high-powered campaign", and Monks (Tier 5) get still higher scores.

With 15 point buy a Wizard can start with 17 INT, or 19 INT if they play a Gray Elf. They'll just be weak in most other areas (hit points, saving throws). So it's probably best to spread some of the points around and not be quite as strong a spellcaster but improve the Wizard's survivability. Toning down spellcasting power makes a Wizard closer in power to lower tier classes, which is a desirable goal.

Sir Giacomo
2010-08-01, 07:48 AM
Also, cross class UMD is a *forum meme*, from a guy who insists that monk is useful, and in order to do this, wrote a build that used mostly things that have nothing to do with actual monk class abilities, ie, cross class umd and wands with few charges. YES, even a commoner can be made useful with enough money and enough cross class umd ranks, but that doesn't actually make the class useful with its own abilities. So consider those responses "joke responses".

And guys, can we try and lay off the joke responses, or at least help the OP separate the jokes from the serious responses???

Please. Not again.
You and everyone inclined to believe this have a look at the guide I once did. See the proportion of what I wrote on UMD and wands compared to what I wrote about how to make the best use of the monk class abilities. And what synergies can mean (for instance, show me a commoner with the fly buff who is faster than the monk).

Then come back here and admit you are wrong.

It is one thing to be of a different opinion, but grossly misrepresenting what I said something different altogether.

- Giacomo

Edit: for the OP, I second the idea to multiclass after level 2, simply since you do not like the monk. Maybe rogue (sneak synergy with stunning fist) and/or swordsage kindly asking your DM to allow the unarmed variant and allow it to stack with monk for unarmed damage.

true_shinken
2010-08-01, 10:57 AM
Edit: for the OP, I second the idea to multiclass after level 2, simply since you do not like the monk. Maybe rogue (sneak synergy with stunning fist) and/or swordsage kindly asking your DM to allow the unarmed variant and allow it to stack with monk for unarmed damage.

Oh, awesome. I loved this. Everyone just says 'just go unarmed swordsage!' without even realizing it's on the adaptation section, being completly on the realm of DM call. This is the first time I've ever seen someone else saying 'oh, yeah, unarmed variant needs DM aproval'.
Congrats, sir.

Boci
2010-08-01, 11:55 AM
Oh, awesome. I loved this. Everyone just says 'just go unarmed swordsage!' without even realizing it's on the adaptation section, being completly on the realm of DM call. This is the first time I've ever seen someone else saying 'oh, yeah, unarmed variant needs DM aproval'.
Congrats, sir.

Any character concept requires DMs aproval, so most of us skip that bit.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-01, 12:02 PM
*checks calendar*

Yup, it's Sunday. Time for the weekly Monk thread, and Giacomo is right on schedule.

*makes popcorn*

Caphi
2010-08-01, 12:15 PM
No, this system just changes the "package". If you want to play a Wizard, you can still play a Wizard. You're just going to be a Wizard with lower average scores than if you wanted to use the Monk package. The idea is to average out the classes. Wizards (strong class ─ Tier 1) get to use the points the DMG recommends for a "low-powered campaign", while Rogues (weaker class ─ Tier 4) get the points the DMG recommends for a "high-powered campaign", and Monks (Tier 5) get still higher scores.

This isn't the point though. Up to tier 3, classes are ranked on power and versatility. Past tier 3, the classes are defined based on access to one or more really, really good tricks. If you play a wizard (or cleric, or sorceror, or psion) without accessing or using those, they become tier 3 (albeit very high tier 3) automatically.

At the same time, it's trivial to drop tiers even beyond that. A sorceror who takes various types of utility spells but no wacky spell comboes ends in high tier 3, but a sorceror who takes all damage spells can end up in tier 4, or worse. A wizard, played "badly" either through ignorance or deliberately as part of a challenge or a character concept, can likewise exist at a low tier except when he pulls out the panic button. A pointbuy that basically lets you buy int and maybe one other score hurts those much more than it hurts the optimal wizard who obviously has ways to ignore his disadvantages.

Lowering pointbuy works for optimal wizards, but it breaks down when people start playing every other kind of wizard.

The Shadowmind
2010-08-01, 12:16 PM
*checks calendar*

Yup, it's Sunday. Time for the weekly Monk thread, and Giacomo is right on schedule.

*makes popcorn*

Do you have any white cheddar flavoring for the popcorn?

lsfreak
2010-08-01, 12:20 PM
"Standing still" is a poor idea, both in D&D and real life. What you want is actively keeping people from hitting your allies. For such a method, I'd suggest unarmed swordsage with a focus on Setting Sun for both mobility and the ability to mess with people's ability to attack your allies. Grab Dodge and Sidestep Charge (in the SRD) along with Improved Trip, to knock anyone down to misses you on a charge. If your DM doesn't want you to retrain the levels you already have in, go into Shadow Sun Ninja.

For a more beatdown approach, Psychic Warrior with Tashalora, or alternatively, the Psionic Fist available in the SRD.

An alternative approach (but pretty much a character 180) would be to try and get the Invisible Fist ACF from Exemplars of Evil, which lets your character go invisible once every three rounds. Combine with levels of rogue for some good sneak attack potential.

EDIT: Though with your Wisdom, I'd say just go for armor. The, the normal swordsage. Try and argue with your DM that it's completely ridiculous that normal people, trained for combat, aren't even proficient with their own fists, and that everyone with a rogue's BAB or better should be auto-proficient.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-01, 12:35 PM
So, Monk 2 and basically meh stats?

I seem to remember there being claims that Druids benefit from a level or two or monk in certain build and that a druid built certain ways doesn't even really need much in the way of stats, even Wis.

It's something to look into, perhaps?

If nothing else, you get a furry level 1 fighter as a class feature. Maybe look into Wild Cohort feat too, for another. (It keys off of total class level too, so should benefit in the short term?)

The Glyphstone
2010-08-01, 12:56 PM
Do you have any white cheddar flavoring for the popcorn?

White cheddar, monterey jack, gouda, brie, or caramel, your pick.

Soranar
2010-08-01, 01:01 PM
Monk 2
LN Dwarf
Str: 14 Dex: 13 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 12 Cha: 10

It's more than meh stats, this is "I should play a tier 1 or 2 class to get by stats"

and you picked monk! (a typically MAD class) ...

Can we switch the stats around? And are you stuck with Monk 2? How do you intend to work with a character that normally goes unarmored with 13 DEX and 12 WIS ?

Alright here is what I would do (assuming you're allowed)

switch your stats around like this

STR 12
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 11

best option number 1 (with little cheese): you're lawful neutral, become a druid (mentioned above, even 2 levels late you will kick ass eventually through wildshape, take practiced spellcaster and natural bond to fix your caster level and pump your animal companion)

cheesy option

change your stats so your CON is your lowest score

take the necropolitan template
age 3 categories (become venerable, gain +3 to all mental stats)
become a druid and take the undead wildshape feat from Libris mortis

option number 3
take cleric levels
become a sacred fist (eventually take practiced spellcaster)
your spells will make you able to hit things eventually


if you really don't want to cast spells
option number 4

become a ranger
take the wildshape ranger variant (trade weaponstyle)
take the non spellcasting variant (trade to get bonus feats)
consider the feat ascetic hunter (ranger levels stack with monk for unarmed damage)

you can also take the fist of the forest PrC and the Deepwarden PrC for a Con based combo , but even then your AC will be subpar

all I can think of

Leon
2010-08-01, 01:04 PM
Str: 14 Dex: 13 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 12 Cha: 10

So, after all this, I hope you can save my monk, or at least get him halfway out of the pit before he dies.

Monk is not that bad really but your stats are, particularly for a Monk.

Suggestion to save your monk - pick up a INT based Spellcasting class and move on maybe heading into Arcane Fist at higher levels

Boci
2010-08-01, 01:09 PM
Monk is not that bad really but your stats are, particularly for a Monk.

Suggestion to save your monk - pick up a INT based Spellcasting class and move on maybe heading into Arcane Fist at higher levels

That would require him swapping his int and wis score, and even then he would be limited to 2nd level spells.

Master_Rahl22
2010-08-01, 01:14 PM
One of my favorite uses of Monk is Monk2/Unarmed Swordsage3/Shadow Sun Ninja 10/Master of Nine 5, not entirely in that order.

You end up with the unarmed damage of a level 15 Monk, and the speed and AC bonus of a level 12 Monk, in addition to the unlimited healing and lots of tasty maneuvers once you get Master of Nine. I'd recommend grabbing a level of Mo9 as soon as you qualify for a good boost to maneuvers, then saving the rest for last to give you access to a large number of high level maneuvers.

Talbot
2010-08-01, 01:14 PM
Oh Kord....

First of all, monk is a 2 level class (after 2, you don't wanna know...)

second, a DWARF?!

sorry for the outbusts....


anyways, I suggest the following for a Dwarf Monk (scary as it sounds)



Wasn't Fistbeard Beardfist a monk?

Soranar
2010-08-01, 01:15 PM
actually no, he was a chaotic barbarian bear shaper thingy, if I remember right

Talbot
2010-08-01, 01:17 PM
Just looked it up, he does in fact have two levels of monk. You can find him here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116838

PS: Very sad to see that his creator is banned :(. That build is one of my favorite things that has ever happened on the internet.

Philistine
2010-08-01, 01:20 PM
So, Monk 2 and basically meh stats?

I seem to remember there being claims that Druids benefit from a level or two or monk in certain build and that a druid built certain ways doesn't even really need much in the way of stats, even Wis.

It's something to look into, perhaps?

If nothing else, you get a furry level 1 fighter as a class feature. Maybe look into Wild Cohort feat too, for another. (It keys off of total class level too, so should benefit in the short term?)
Twelve Wisdom is a little low, even for a "doesn't need all that much Wis"-model Druid. From level 8 until sometime in Epic, he would need a +Wis item just to be able to cast his highest level spells - never mind trying to boost save DCs (admittedly not needed for a buffing- or summoning-focused character) or gain useful numbers of bonus spells. Same goes for any other Wis-based caster. And of course with 10 in both Intelligence and Charisma, any Int- or Cha-based caster is simply out of the question.

I think lsfreak had the right idea in his edit - the OP is best served by multiclassing into standard Swordsage. The character just doesn't have enough Wis to forgo armor in favor of Wis to AC; and since Monks don't have fast movement yet at level 2, the only Monk feature he'd lose by wearing armor is Flurry of ItBlows. At the same time, the early Monk levels give him a leg up on Initiator Level, so that he can start taking Level 2 maneuvers at Swordsage 2.

Prodan
2010-08-01, 01:47 PM
actually no, he was a chaotic barbarian bear shaper thingy, if I remember right

He's a Barbarian/Ranger/Deepwarden/Fist of the Forest/Bear Warrior/Warshaper in Being Bane: A Barbarian Guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8753.new), but the character info post (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7814.msg257943#msg257943), he's now a Monk/Ranger/Deepwarden/Fist of the Forest/Kensai. Drunken Master seems to have been dropped for more Kensai levels.


Please. Not again.
You and everyone inclined to believe this have a look at the guide I once did. See the proportion of what I wrote on UMD and wands compared to what I wrote about how to make the best use of the monk class abilities. And what synergies can mean (for instance, show me a commoner with the fly buff who is faster than the monk).

Then come back here and admit you are wrong.

It is one thing to be of a different opinion, but grossly misrepresenting what I said something different altogether.

- Giacomo
The bit about UMD is the most unique, entertaining, memorable, and well thought out part of your guide.

Origomar
2010-08-01, 02:04 PM
Just looked it up, he does in fact have two levels of monk. You can find him here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116838

PS: Very sad to see that his creator is banned :(. That build is one of my favorite things that has ever happened on the internet.

huh i dont remember him getting banned.

Boci
2010-08-01, 02:08 PM
@ Talbot and Origomar:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1 Might want to check GitP's policy for banned members, just to make sure you don't accidentally break any rules.

ExtravagantEvil
2010-08-01, 02:27 PM
*checks calendar*

Yup, it's Sunday. Time for the weekly Monk thread, and Giacomo is right on schedule.

*makes popcorn*

You sir, deserve a +1, I was about to say something similar :smallbiggrin:

On to the more important Manner, it seems as if I may need to enlighten you with more details, concerning the party/campaign so here it is as follows:
Campaign Setting type: Steam Punk-ish (Steadily progressing into it, has trains, cheap guns, etc.,etc. magic is being pushed out)
Fellow PC's:
Cloud Sexyvampire sexana (I kid you not): A Rouge that focuses on Charisma, and seduces everyone/thing, it's quite funny to watch, not as effective in combat (may take Dashing Swordsman from here, replacing Quips with Innuendo), CN
Akuya (I think): A Ranger (eventual Scout) That focuses on Hiding, sneaking, shooting, and befriending wild animals, silent ZOmbie hunter type CG
Dire Rat (Snuffleupagus is its name) Tamed by ranger, is better tank than me... will let it grow to size large, than enchant to size huge, and give barding, will equip with gattling gun, NN
Myself: Defined on page 1
Italian name I can't remember: Illusionist1/Rouge1, is an alchemsit type with a pistol, hasn't used magic yet.
Brother Joseph, DMPC that is Half Orc Cleric, will go into Bard and Evangelist; preachy ultra buff, very greedy and is like a televangelist in nature, NG or LG, not sure, better tank than me...

On another note, I've read through the Unarmed Swordsage, and I'd like to know why they are looked upon with such praise, I don't see much other than it gets Martial-Spells, and I'd still like to do my combat style of Little movement, so I'll definitely go into the Stone Dragon bit, and Setting Sun, they fit with my character plan very well.

Temotei
2010-08-01, 02:54 PM
This isn't the point though. Up to tier 3, classes are ranked on power and versatility. Past tier 3, the classes are defined based on access to one or more really, really good tricks. If you play a wizard (or cleric, or sorceror, or psion) without accessing or using those, they become tier 3 (albeit very high tier 3) automatically.

At the same time, it's trivial to drop tiers even beyond that. A sorceror who takes various types of utility spells but no wacky spell comboes ends in high tier 3, but a sorceror who takes all damage spells can end up in tier 4, or worse. A wizard, played "badly" either through ignorance or deliberately as part of a challenge or a character concept, can likewise exist at a low tier except when he pulls out the panic button. A pointbuy that basically lets you buy int and maybe one other score hurts those much more than it hurts the optimal wizard who obviously has ways to ignore his disadvantages.

Lowering pointbuy works for optimal wizards, but it breaks down when people start playing every other kind of wizard.

Exactly.

I was saying that it's kind of...mean...to penalize a player that wants to play a wizard or cleric just because they want to play that class by giving them lower ability scores than you would anyone else from the get-go.

My point was that if you want to lower the abilities of a spellcaster to make them closer to melee classes, you don't lower their ability scores. You take away spells, limit lists, and the like.

Prodan
2010-08-01, 03:00 PM
On another note, I've read through the Unarmed Swordsage, and I'd like to know why they are looked upon with such praise, I don't see much other than it gets Martial-Spells, and I'd still like to do my combat style of Little movement, so I'll definitely go into the Stone Dragon bit, and Setting Sun, they fit with my character plan very well.

Go into Deepstone Sentinel?

Origomar
2010-08-01, 03:22 PM
@ Talbot and Origomar:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1 Might want to check GitP's policy for banned members, just to make sure you don't accidentally break any rules.

wasnt aware that such a rule list existed, ill shush:smallredface:

The Glyphstone
2010-08-01, 03:40 PM
On another note, I've read through the Unarmed Swordsage, and I'd like to know why they are looked upon with such praise, I don't see much other than it gets Martial-Spells, and I'd still like to do my combat style of Little movement, so I'll definitely go into the Stone Dragon bit, and Setting Sun, they fit with my character plan very well.

Mainly because it does everything a monk does, but better. It can fight without weapons and armor (the main Monk draws), and its ability to move and Strike with maneuvers neatly bypasses one of the primary deficits of the Monk, its need to full-attack for effective damage. Swordsages get Shadow Hand as a default school, enabling the Shadow Blade feat for DEX-dependency and eliminating the need for Str if you want. It has very high mobility (teleportation, air walk, speed boosts), and as mentioned, doesn't have to sacrifice its damage output for movement.

Ernir
2010-08-01, 04:35 PM
On another note, I've read through the Unarmed Swordsage, and I'd like to know why they are looked upon with such praise, I don't see much other than it gets Martial-Spells

Yup, the class chassis is not very impressive. But the maneuvers is where it's at.

It's a bit like a Cleric, really. Aside from getting spells, they really really suck. :smalltongue:

Fisticuffs
2010-08-01, 04:53 PM
See if your DM will let you retrain feats and move around your ability scores, I'd say: Monk3/H-a-R Fighter1(DotU)/UnarmedSwordsage1/Dragon Descendant10(DM)/UnarmedSwordsageX

Don't forget to get Monk's Belt, take the Superior Unarmed Strike feat, and if your DM will reduce the cost an Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Curmudgeon
2010-08-01, 05:04 PM
Don't forget to get Monk's Belt, take the Superior Unarmed Strike feat Pick just one of these. They're both based on your actual Monk level, so they won't stack. (The Belt is better than the feat.)

and if your DM will reduce the cost an Amulet of Mighty Fists. Just get a Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) instead. It's better, and you won't need to argue about the price.

Leon
2010-08-02, 12:33 AM
That would require him swapping his int and wis score, and even then he would be limited to 2nd level spells.

hah, your correct. thus is the folly of posting when really tired. misread his CON for INT

Jyokage
2010-08-03, 02:38 PM
I love me some monk, but I'll be honest, I never go for a fist fighter build unless I know I've got at least 18's in the big 3, (STR,Dex,Wis) and at least a 16 in Int and Con. (That might sound ludicrous, but I roll extremely well even with 4d6 drop lowest). And I'm talking about ECL 1. :smallredface:

Monk is subpar, but the lower your starting stats, the harder it is to roll with.

jiriku
2010-08-03, 02:48 PM
If you're averse to homebrew, the unarmed swordsage variant is your best bet.

If you're open to homebrew, and you're partial to the style of the original monk, I recommend the revised monk in my signature. However, your ability score distribution is severely suboptimal, and you'll probably need to get DM permission to re-allocate your stats in addition to getting permission to use a homebrew class. You can grab Esoteric Weapon Training to get hand axes or hammers or something equally dwarfy as a special monk weapon, and use Crash Like a Wave, Bend Like a Reed to boost your weapon damage.

If you're open to homebrew and you're not so attached to the style of the original mon, there are several other worthy homebrewed monk variants. I think Fax made one that has a set of abilities powered by a ki pool, and someone else in the Homebrew forum has made a martial-maneuver-using monk.